Bring back C-Frags 20% additional damage.

Savos_Saren · March 2018

PvP wise- this thread is comparing two of the strongest mag DPS class’s strongest burst abilities... and trying to get buffs.

...yet magplar, magwarden, and magDK are twiddling their thumbs. SMH.

Maulkin · March 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

I'd be happy if they just brought back the stun in PvE only. It would make solo and 4 men gameplay much more fun.

I don't mind leaving it off for PvP. After all PvP is the source of all the most idiotic nerfs we have got throughout the years.

Why do People don't get that most nerfs were done both due to pvp and PvE?

Frag damage nerf was done due to pve
Frag stun removal was done due to PvP
Sustain changes were done due to PvP AND PvE
Destro Ult nerfs were done due to both PvE and PvP
Radiant Destruction nerf was done due to PvE and PvP
Proc set crit nerf was done due to PvE and PvP

NPCs don't cry on the forums. What's the point removing stun in PvE? 90% of trial NPCs are immune anyway. Are you implying frags stun made 4 men too easy?

The above "nerf system" is flawed: it comes with two "nerfs sources" (PvP and PvE) which stack on a single class skill.

This is how we got the current boring, flattened, streamlined classes. If you take nerf inputs from multiple sources and stack them all on a single ability, that ability becomes garbage.
At this point, just end the misery, make us all only auto-attack so we don't break this precious PvE balance.

No but a stun on a high damage ability is a problem in PvP.
If you could read my post again you'd see that the CC removal was done due to pvp, if you need CCs in PvE you are certainly at a level where you shouldn't be talking about balance

But a snare on a skill that deal even more damage isn't a problem ( humhum merciless resolve again ) ?
We literraly throw a big pebble to the enemy but ... it just deal damage
But a spectral bow should reduce the movement speed ? I just don't understand.

The snare is the same you have on your enemy with cripple,i couldn't care less if they removed it.

I have no problem with increasing the damage back to 20% but a stun on frags is too much

Generally speaking the nerf to frag CC is inconsequential in PvP, since >95% of decent Sorcs have spent the time to farm a Master's Destro (be it Fire or Lightning). Thus they have a spammable CC which they can use when Frags proc, to increase the chances of their opponent taking the frag to the face while already on the floor. Same as MagBaldes do with Flame Reach and Merciless.

The only real effect the change had, is to make farming the staff mandatory. That's about it. That's why you didn't see any of those guys that stream or make build/1vX videos for Sorc, even raise an eyebrow over the nerf. They are all highly geared people who were using the Master's destros even before the nerf.

I'm not saying they should bring it back. I'm saying I literally could not care less. The impact of the stun is grossly exaggerated given then alternative that already exists for everyone, not just Sorcs.

Lord-Otto · March 2018

Guys, it is super simple what needs to be done to Frags to restore the damage, without ZOS going back on their previous changes:

Let it deal shock damage.
Boom.
5% from sorc passive, 4% from high elf. Can proc Implosion, so you actually wanna use this during PvE execute phases, can proc Concussion, which is always nice. Might make Netch's Touch relevant again, good for no-pet sorcs.

Easy fix is easy.

Pelican · March 2018

@Lord-Otto good idea.

Lord-Otto · March 2018

Thank you!

Maulkin · March 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

PvP wise- this thread is comparing two of the strongest mag DPS class’s strongest burst abilities... and trying to get buffs.

...yet magplar, magwarden, and magDK are twiddling their thumbs. SMH.

That's subjective. Mag DKs and Magplars are pretty beasty in their own niche. Don't get me wrong, I'd personally buff them both slightly, but their element is not burst damage. The reason some Sorcs are complaining is because they find it harder to burst people than before, and a Sorc that can't burst will lose the attrition battle against most classes.

MagWarden got hit quite hard by the nerf to Birds. It was pretty strong last patch.

Maulkin · March 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Guys, it is super simple what needs to be done to Frags to restore the damage, without ZOS going back on their previous changes:

Let it deal shock damage.
Boom.
5% from sorc passive, 4% from high elf. Can proc Implosion, so you actually wanna use this during PvE execute phases, can proc Concussion, which is always nice. Might make Netch's Touch relevant again, good for no-pet sorcs.

Easy fix is easy.

Pelican wrote: »

@Lord-Otto good idea.

It's not in the Storm tree, it's in the Dark Magic tree. It would ruin immershuns

Lord-Otto · March 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Guys, it is super simple what needs to be done to Frags to restore the damage, without ZOS going back on their previous changes:

Let it deal shock damage.
Boom.
5% from sorc passive, 4% from high elf. Can proc Implosion, so you actually wanna use this during PvE execute phases, can proc Concussion, which is always nice. Might make Netch's Touch relevant again, good for no-pet sorcs.

Easy fix is easy.

Pelican wrote: »

@Lord-Otto good idea.

It's not in the Storm tree, it's in the Dark Magic tree. It would ruin immershuns

Muh IMMURSHUUUN!
(>o<)

I already expected someone to bring this up, and the solution is just as easy:
Xivilaic Frag.
Dark daedric magic infused with the Xivilai's lightning potency.

Sorcs ARE connected to lightning, after all, it's even in the trailer for T:U.

And on that note:
Xivilaic Tomb.
Have Daedric Tomb (the range morph of mines) deal shock damage. Might make it more useful, it's garbo right now.

Vahrokh · March 2018

technohic wrote: »

I’m not sure where the whining comes from for PVE not having the stun. Any fight where it would help in a big target; they’re immune. In masses of trash,a single target CC doesn’t sound all that important ; especially one tied to a damage ability that’s likely going to kill the trash.

Some people actually love to challenge themselves and solo veteran dungeons or Craglorn group delves.
These are the same dungeons that more losers cried so much about that they got nerfed to soloable status and doing them in a group is not fun any more.

NyassaV · March 2018

Oh, this change, I remember this. This is when I finalized my choice of whether Wrobel actually plays this game or not... And my conclusion was that he just doesn't play a lot (No shame in wanting to have a life). The nerf was so silly and stupid. I came to the realization that the CC was why frags were so powerful shortly after I begun to do PvP. 10% damage isn't going to save your butt, but removing a knock-down CC certainly will because you can't do anything for 1 second even if you have the reaction time of a champ, cuz thats how knock-back/down CC works. So yes, now that the issue has been addressed, please give frags it's damage back

@ZOS_Wrobel

IZZEFlameLash · March 2018

I miss my 20k frag proc on people. =< Yes, I am looking at you all divines using gankers.

WrathOfInnos · March 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Was nothing wrong with the skill to begin with.

And NBs shouldn't even begin to talk about how easy it is to proc Frags after the changes Zos made to Merciless.

Seriously, If you do the math, you can on average cast a frag proc, every 4th skill on your front bar, and on merciless you can cast a bow every 5th skill (including back bar skills), while getting a very strong offensive damage buff. Merciless also hits MUCH harder.

Merciless is a far more powerful tool than frags. If a sorc could, they would swap the skill in an instant. I dont know if frags is the biggest problem (certainly one of them), but sorcs toolkit has been decimated in the last year or so.

And that 1/4 skills does not even take into account heavy attacks, or back bar skills. For a petless sorc with a 12s rotation (for haunting curse) there are usually 2-4 skills cast from the back bar, and 0-2 heavy attacks for sustain resulting in missing up to 4 chance to proc frags. This means that in 12s, there are anywhere from 4 to 10 chances to proc frags. On average this will give 1 frag proc every 12s (worst case) up to 1 frag proc every 5s (best case, equivalent to merciless resolve rate but with much lower damage).

Minalan · March 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

Oh this change I remember this. This is when I finalized my choice of whether Wrobel actually playing this game or not... And my conclusion was that he just doesn't play a lot (No shame in wanting to have a life). The nerf was so silly and stupid. I came to the realization that the CC was why frags were so powerful shortly after I begun to do PvP. 10% damage isn't going to save your butt, but removing a knock-down CC certainly will because you can't do anything for 1 second even if you have the reaction time of a champ, cuz thats how knock-back/down CC works. So yes, now that the issue has been addressed, please give frags it's damage back

@ZOS_Wrobel

I’d like to point out. We as a community don’t HATE the devs. It’s just that maybe 5-10% of their decisions are just stupefyingly frustrating. I’m okay with the CC nerf, I’d have liked it to be replaced with off balance because we have no access to that in No-CP. We do have class access to other ranged CC abilities though, one of which can’t be dodged or blocked - so the nerf makes sense.

I’m not okay with reducing the damage on one of our THREE class ranged damage abilities. TWO if you don’t count our execute, which does no damage above 80% health. Frags and curse. That’s IT. Come on already guys! Do the math.

Somber97866 · March 2018

IF IT'S GOOD NERF IT!

NyassaV · March 2018

Minalan wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Oh this change I remember this. This is when I finalized my choice of whether Wrobel actually playing this game or not... And my conclusion was that he just doesn't play a lot (No shame in wanting to have a life). The nerf was so silly and stupid. I came to the realization that the CC was why frags were so powerful shortly after I begun to do PvP. 10% damage isn't going to save your butt, but removing a knock-down CC certainly will because you can't do anything for 1 second even if you have the reaction time of a champ, cuz thats how knock-back/down CC works. So yes, now that the issue has been addressed, please give frags it's damage back

@ZOS_Wrobel

I’d like to point out. We as a community don’t HATE the devs. It’s just that maybe 5-10% of their decisions are just stupefyingly frustrating. I’m okay with the CC nerf, I’d have liked it to be replaced with off balance because we have no access to that in No-CP. We do have class access to other ranged CC abilities though, one of which can’t be dodged or blocked - so the nerf makes sense.

I’m not okay with reducing the damage on one of our THREE class ranged damage abilities. TWO if you don’t count our execute, which does no damage above 80% health. Frags and curse. That’s IT. Come on already guys! Do the math.

Oh yeah... Don't hate anyone, I love you guys. Just need too ask more questions and play the game more often

bardx86 · March 2018

IZZESparkling wrote: »

I miss my 20k frag proc on people. =< Yes, I am looking at you all divines using gankers.

Me too. Went for 20k to like 6k. its stupid.

Jsmalls · March 2018

bardx86 wrote: »

IZZESparkling wrote: »

I miss my 20k frag proc on people. =< Yes, I am looking at you all divines using gankers.

Me too. Went for 20k to like 6k. its stupid.

Soooo much this.

And I'm specced for low recovery and high damage, 52.5k magicka and 3300 spell damage with spinners 3500 penetration...

And let me tell you my frags hit like wet noodles. 7k crit max on a decent player. So that's suppose to be my staple offensive ability? It's trash. It's easy to dodge, block, reflect, etc

I'm not even saying 10% would fix it at this point. It needs a rework. Applying a debuff (fracture), off balance, or dot but it needs something.

Mag Sorcs are good at killing potatoes that aren't in heavy armor/have their resistance buffed way up, but anyone can kill those players. Outside of that they are sub par, and just don't output enough burst to still be a burst class. And since we don't have sustained dps, or pressuring dots, or defiles, we're just sitting in limbo stealing kills with endless procs.

After maining a magSorc sorc since console release, I feel like I'm being forced to play another class to stay competitive.

MehrunesFlagon · March 2018

Azurya wrote: »

Pelican wrote: »

So back in HotR or Morrowind, C-Frags bonus damage got reduced from 20% to 10% because it was overperforming. But ever since the stun from C-Frags got removed in Clockwork City patch I feel that magsorcs should have back the original 20% additional damage for C-Frags. Would help C-Frags compete with stuff like magblade's Assassin's Will which hits so much harder. The 20% additional C-Frags damage would definitely help magsorcs out, both PvP and PvE, without hurting balance at all. What do you guys think?

thinking this is a bit to much!
still getting killed in cyro by this skill and think it needs a workover to reduce that dmg-output, because it is certainly not thought at as an execute, but it functions like one NOW!!!

nerf it, and nerf it thoroughly!

no.Restore it to 20%.Then give it an additional 10%.

Biro123 · March 2018

Jsmalls wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IZZESparkling wrote: »

I miss my 20k frag proc on people. =< Yes, I am looking at you all divines using gankers.

Me too. Went for 20k to like 6k. its stupid.

Soooo much this.

And I'm specced for low recovery and high damage, 52.5k magicka and 3300 spell damage with spinners 3500 penetration...

And let me tell you my frags hit like wet noodles. 7k crit max on a decent player. So that's suppose to be my staple offensive ability? It's trash. It's easy to dodge, block, reflect, etc

I'm not even saying 10% would fix it at this point. It needs a rework. Applying a debuff (fracture), off balance, or dot but it needs something.

Mag Sorcs are good at killing potatoes that aren't in heavy armor/have their resistance buffed way up, but anyone can kill those players. Outside of that they are sub par, and just don't output enough burst to still be a burst class. And since we don't have sustained dps, or pressuring dots, or defiles, we're just sitting in limbo stealing kills with endless procs.

After maining a magSorc sorc since console release, I feel like I'm being forced to play another class to stay competitive.

Same here.. Running with 57k magica and around 2700 spell damage - next to no sustain. experienced, non-tank players just shrug it off. Something off when a max-damage setup just gets shrugged off.

I shudder to think how hard a Grim Focus hit would be with the same kind of offensive setup - and suspect that sorc damage toolkit has been balanced with the expectation that thy run a higher damage setup than most other classes.

bardx86 · March 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IZZESparkling wrote: »

I miss my 20k frag proc on people. =< Yes, I am looking at you all divines using gankers.

Me too. Went for 20k to like 6k. its stupid.

Soooo much this.

And I'm specced for low recovery and high damage, 52.5k magicka and 3300 spell damage with spinners 3500 penetration...

And let me tell you my frags hit like wet noodles. 7k crit max on a decent player. So that's suppose to be my staple offensive ability? It's trash. It's easy to dodge, block, reflect, etc

I'm not even saying 10% would fix it at this point. It needs a rework. Applying a debuff (fracture), off balance, or dot but it needs something.

Mag Sorcs are good at killing potatoes that aren't in heavy armor/have their resistance buffed way up, but anyone can kill those players. Outside of that they are sub par, and just don't output enough burst to still be a burst class. And since we don't have sustained dps, or pressuring dots, or defiles, we're just sitting in limbo stealing kills with endless procs.

After maining a magSorc sorc since console release, I feel like I'm being forced to play another class to stay competitive.

Same here.. Running with 57k magica and around 2700 spell damage - next to no sustain. experienced, non-tank players just shrug it off. Something off when a max-damage setup just gets shrugged off.

I shudder to think how hard a Grim Focus hit would be with the same kind of offensive setup - and suspect that sorc damage toolkit has been balanced with the expectation that thy run a higher damage setup than most other classes.

Agreed, its hard to apply any pressure anymore. Can't make folks go defensive. No one is scared of a SORCS damage output. Snipe hits for like 13k fairly easy and nearly unavoidable. Frags isn't easy to land and it should hurt if it does. Hell most of other classes spam-ables hit as hard as a proc frags. Sorcs play style is slow and clunky, we ned a bit more damage to help with pressure.