If you want to progress the game you need to raise item level...

Asgari · March 2018

No way!

Seraphayel · March 2018

Bbsample197 wrote: »

why? if were in the Vet rank system it makes sense but if everything is scaled to a certain level even if you raise the item level you wont see any difference aside from reaching the next item lvl capped like we did when 160cp capped was introduced

It works in other games as I mentioned but some of you keep saying it won't in ESO --> ESO scaling is the problem

DeadlyRecluse · March 2018

Gear level increase is fake progression. No thanks.

Bbsample197 · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

Bbsample197 wrote: »

why? if were in the Vet rank system it makes sense but if everything is scaled to a certain level even if you raise the item level you wont see any difference aside from reaching the next item lvl capped like we did when 160cp capped was introduced

It works in other games as I mentioned but some of you keep saying it won't in ESO --> ESO scaling is the problem

getting a good a gear to get a better one is what a true progression must be not some grinding power levels like a lunatic, you wont gain any skill or experience just by grinding cp. i say add more content like VMAs so we can have another better ones than we have now... its better that way people would actually learn something not numblessly pressing a single button running around training hordes of undeads on Skyreach.

Seraphayel · March 2018

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Gear level increase is fake progression. No thanks.

Again, so the solution is to have absolutely no progression?

Elijah_Crow · March 2018

There has always been an item level progression in this game. I just deconed my CP 130 Masters Daggers the other day. Just because the item level has held at 160 for some time does not mean that it won’t increase.

I expect to see harder tuned content introduced which will require gear with higher stats to conquer.

It’s only a matter of time.

starkerealm · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

Scaling and still increasing power levels works. It does in GW2 and it does in WoW. Why can't it be a thing for ESO?

There is no progress anymore when you reach the item cap. Sure you can farm CP but the effects become trivial when you acquired several hundreds of CP.

There needs to be some kind of new progression. And as I said, I want something like this only when you don't have to farm your specific item again. Make it upgradeable via stuff you can farm in new zones or whatever. It can be part of Crafting or it is just another "Upgrade Gear System".

In point of fact, there is a significant increase in power once you hit the item cap. You don't reach 160 and instantly gain the ability to push 35k DPS. In fact, I've seen CR300s who can barely push 5k (and, no, I'm not talking about tanks.) The difference is, once you get to that point, advancement really does come down to player skill, not simply getting bigger numbers on your gear.

starkerealm · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Gear level increase is fake progression. No thanks.

Again, so the solution is to have absolutely no progression?

No, the solution is to have a game where you can actually get better at the game, not simply one that throws bigger numbers at you until everything's a faceroll. You want to improve at level cap? Learn to play the game, and stop begging for a carry.

Demycilian · March 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Gear level increase is fake progression. No thanks.

Again, so the solution is to have absolutely no progression?

No, the solution is to have a game where you can actually get better at the game, not simply one that throws bigger numbers at you until everything's a faceroll. You want to improve at level cap? Learn to play the game, and stop begging for a carry.

Luckily, other games offer both options. Maybe, its a question of expenses and budget?

Wifeaggro13 · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

... and give us an option to increase max item level via crafting etc.

I don't want to farm it all again. But without any gear progression Chapters feel pretty... stagnant.

That's why Zenimax should raise itemlevel by 30 or so with every Chapter. Tedious item grind should be no thing but there should drop ressources with which you can update your "old" gear.

/discuss

Blame your boy Matt , once Paul was gone the first game design change was to get rid of vertical progression and make the game flat. he wanted an online RPG not an MMO.

Seraphayel · March 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Gear level increase is fake progression. No thanks.

Again, so the solution is to have absolutely no progression?

No, the solution is to have a game where you can actually get better at the game, not simply one that throws bigger numbers at you until everything's a faceroll. You want to improve at level cap? Learn to play the game, and stop begging for a carry.

Getting better in which way when only nerfs determine real "meta" changes and nothing else?

Wifeaggro13 · March 2018

Skoomah wrote: »

This is a BAD idea. If I have grind everything over again or have to grind in general to get my gear to the right spot, I'm just quitting the game. GRIND = NOT FUN

what do you think the game is now? all people are doing is grinding champion points in the ass backward design of their AA. this game caters to a churn casual player. its why there is no permanent community. Right now what exactly are you doing with your time in game ? Alts ?

Kel · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

Bbsample197 wrote: »

why? if were in the Vet rank system it makes sense but if everything is scaled to a certain level even if you raise the item level you wont see any difference aside from reaching the next item lvl capped like we did when 160cp capped was introduced

It works in other games as I mentioned but some of you keep saying it won't in ESO --> ESO scaling is the problem

What you're not seeing is that these other games you mention DO IN FACT have a level cap. There is only a certain item level in WoW that you can reach. And all the work and effort it takes to get there knowing full well it will all be reset in the next expansion isn't really worth it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/7gf4iw/what_is_the_max_item_level_now/

Leave the gear treadmill in WoW.
And yes, because how scaling works, you're not gaining anything. You lose power until you get back to where you were before you started. That is not progression. You are not moving forward.
Zos would have to rework the entire game, until it wasn't ESO anymore...just some clone of another game.
This idea is just bad...you want gear progression, go play WoW.
And what does just grinding items to upgrade your gear add to gameplay? So, I grind some items, or buy them off a guild trader, to instantly upgrade my gear? What is accomplished by this? Your idea adds nothing to gameplay. There is no reason for this change.

Kendaric · March 2018

Demycilian wrote: »

Luckily, other games offer both options. Maybe, its a question of expenses and budget?

And yet you are still here and playing ESO. So they must have done something right...

Anotherone773 · March 2018

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Its like you completly failed to read and understand the post you were quoting. @starkerealm is spot on. You're making it extremely obvious with your rambling banter that you literally do not understand how leveling and scaling in ESO works, and, on top of that, how you fail to understand that endgame is something you work towards. People set goals in this game, actual goals like completing difficult content. And very frequently, you need specific gear, and a specific rotation which can be the exact opposite of your desired playstyle. Completing challenges is rewarding, gimping the playerbase for no reason is cruel and selfish.

Not at all i understand perfectly. I figured out in the first few days of playing how the leveling system works, having modded my own games. The mobs NEVER change level or difficulty. This is not that difficult of a concept. Your gear levels down and your gear affects your abilities, damage, and defense.

Roll a new character get it to level 20. Put whatever gear on it you want too.Screen shot all your gear's stats and your abilities stats. Level to 49. Compare the gear to what you recorded at level 20. Compare the abilities to level 20. You will find you became significantly weaker than you were at level 20.

*Level 1-49( no cp) seem harder because you dont yet have CP or many of your abilities and their morphs. You also have a mix match of gear. gear that is 5 or even 10 levels old losing 10-20% of its original effectiveness.

* Original ESO content( pre one tamriel) is leveled to 50.

* Newer content is leveled to 160 which is why when you go in some dungeons below cp 160 , it buffs to you cp 160.

*Back to gear. At level 50 the game starts to become easier. The gear does not level down as drastically with CP as it did with levels. So gear is more effective longer. This gives you time to acquire gear more suited to your build as opposed to random pieces. CP increase vital areas such as your damage, resource pools, and defenses.

* At CP 160, you no longer have gear that scales down. Assuming you make logical choices in which pieces to replace and with what, you will only increase in power. The mobs stay the same level. Now you start working on good gear doing sets and improving gear. You are still increasing your power with CP. Mobs are much easier now that they was pre CP levels.

* At CP 300 you should have good ( end game beginner)gear sets on for your class and it should at least be all purple if not gold. Now non instanced content will be much easier for you. Normal dungeons should not be hard for you either if you understand the mechanics of the dungeons. You should be pulling really good dps outside of vet content.

* Above CP 300 you should have gold end game beginner or end game gear sets. Your CP will be giving very marginal returns now in areas you deem useful to your build. Vet content will vary on difficulty depending on your build, and personal abilities( light weaving, animation canceling, rotation, understanding mechanics, etc). All other content should be really easy for you.

That is how the leveling system works...There isnt one. You are on a proverbial treadmill. You have walked 100 miles and havent left your living room. Congratulations, you are playing ESO.

All of that said...

Another concept that is not understood is that ALL ESO players enjoy no grind/ no progression content. This is only partially true. All ESO players that stick around for long periods enjoy no progression. The ones that want purpose to running content already left or are currently enduring it hoping they change the system because they will have to do something with the CP system at some point. Many progression players come back briefly, when they do, only when the cap is raised. They get the new cap, see what has changed and then go back to what they were doing.

So it may feel like a majority of players like this stale system, because the ones that dont like it left. But when i compare this game to others given its age, it has extremely poor vet retention and that is an issue. You can say its because of bugs, lag etc. But in reality those players that leave for those reasons are weeded out of the entire population. A CP 300 isnt going to tolerate bugs and lag anymore than a CP 720. Everyone has a breaking point on that issue and they are all different. So in that respect, we are already excluding everyone that leaves because of bugs, etc in our stats. That means that vet retention is very low. I should be seeing a vet population around 25-50%, not 4%. And honestly it should be closer to 50% since you only have to get to max level once.

But....

ZoS has a solution for people who hate putting effort into anything and have no self control. All while giving progression players( most of the gaming population) what they need to keep their interest.

Have gear and level progression and to remove the grind, you simply fix the drops. Lets take a new end game trial as an example. The new higher cp gear drops from the bosses. Got to trial grind...nope.

Lets say their are 5 bosses in a new trial. Boss#1 drops waists, Boss #2 drops gloves, Boss #3 drops feet, Boss #4 drops leggings, Boss # 5 drops chest. You have a 1 in 3 chance for every boss to get the piece you need. You can mod your gear now, so you dont have to grind for that perfect piece. It just has to be close.

Saying progression is pointless is like saying getting better at anything is pointless. Its a complete lack of ambition and reeks of laziness. Even if someone finds it pointless NOTHING says they have to participate. Nothing says that any player need to obtain BiS to play the game. There is plenty for them to do if they dont want to progress. There is no sense in preventing everyone else on planet earth from progressing and grinding just because you dont want too. That is your choice and if the game has progression and grind is not a factor in your playstyle.

In eve online there is a safe-ish area called hi sec meant mostly for carebears and for people looking to get a break from the more demanding areas of the game. Some people NEVER leave this area. They never "progress". They also whine about how they dont get all the good stuff that people who do progress and run risks acquire. But its their choice not to leave that safe little area of the game. They dont want to progress and they dont have too. They will stay in hi sec for years. Meanwhile those that want more of a challenge have that option.

That is all games. It is YOUR choice to progress. It is YOUR choice to grind. If you dont want to do it, simply dont. If you do it just because its there and dont like it, then thats your own stupidity for doing something you hate that you dont have to do.

But ive been playing MMOs since they were literally invented and i can promise you: No progression = no player base.

Saturn · March 2018

There's a reason why they stopped doing that...

The problem is that ZOS doesn't know how to make proper incentives to make people want to play content, which, upping max level won't save that, plus levels are based on CP so even if they did up the gear level and mob level (even though mobs already scale to your level) most people who play the game would already be at the new "max" and the only "progression" to be had is refarming gear for the higher cap, or as you suggest, use crafting to scale up old gear, which leaves exactly what to be progressed towards?

What they could do is focus less on catering to the casual players, and stop trying to close the gap between the middle and the top. The thing that makes most people continue playing games is something to work towards, and they are effectively trying to take that away by significantly lowering the skill curve and necessary progression. I mean last Chapter (Morrowind) they nerfed sustain so hard that most endgame setups have now become incredibly simplistic, in fact so simple that most people would be able to pull them off without practicing much at all, whereas in the past good setups took practice to pull off, and the game is worse off for it.

Further, they could try and make endgame content more rewarding, since there's not enough of a draw from the rewards (this also applies to PvP, which needs a serious overhaul too). Like if you don't even need actual endgame gear to run the best setup for your class then the only reason to run it is because you want to beat it, but once you beat that content there won't be much replayability in it. Which is the reason why they then made the Asylum hardmode the way it is, so that it would take most people a really long time to beat, by which time the next new content will be out, and the cycle continues. I mean look at the last two trials and compare them to Maw of Lorkhaj. They're poorly-designed slugfests by comparison. The tricky mechanics are replaced by marathon endurance fights.

So no, I do believe your idea of how to "progress" the game is entirely missing the point. Look at a game like WoW and compare it to ESO, sure they up the levels every update, but they also make sure to put in a lot of incentives and things to work towards, which is what ESO is sorely lacking. I stopped playing WoW after Cataclysm, but the way the game was handled during WotLK is something I think other MMOs should strive for, but quite clearly ZOS is willfully ignoring clever advice and hard-learnt experiences of other developers, which is how ESO got to the state that it is in.

randomkeyhits · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Gear level increase is fake progression. No thanks.

Again, so the solution is to have absolutely no progression?

gear increase is no progression, oh look my gear is 10% more powerful, I shall now fight the new boss which is....... 10% more powerful too. Relative to the latest boss you are neither stronger nor weaker than before, once you've managed to gear up of course.

But, and its a big but, it means all preceding content is now discounted, no longer really relevant as you can face-roll it and the gear drops are sub par getting worse the older the content is.

Its a damned hamster wheel where you keep running to stay in the same place. What also happens is the older content gets absolutely ravaged by the dev team who want new players to "catch up" and get to the latest pay-day content as fast as possible.

Instead we have a system where drops are always relevant, all content is relevant and as more gets added the breadth of the game improves. New players can get to max gear pretty easily even if not to maximum strength and can start preparing for end game stuff if they really want to as they gain CP.

Go back on that hamster wheel? no thank you.

MacCait · March 2018

NO NO NO

You say you do not want grind, yet you are asking for an increase in item gear. Its a contradiction.

Thats what CP is for.

Raising item level would be one of the worse things that could happen. The point is to try and avoid power creep, not encourage it

Kel · March 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Its like you completly failed to read and understand the post you were quoting. @starkerealm is spot on. You're making it extremely obvious with your rambling banter that you literally do not understand how leveling and scaling in ESO works, and, on top of that, how you fail to understand that endgame is something you work towards. People set goals in this game, actual goals like completing difficult content. And very frequently, you need specific gear, and a specific rotation which can be the exact opposite of your desired playstyle. Completing challenges is rewarding, gimping the playerbase for no reason is cruel and selfish.

Not at all i understand perfectly. I figured out in the first few days of playing how the leveling system works, having modded my own games. The mobs NEVER change level or difficulty. This is not that difficult of a concept. Your gear levels down and your gear affects your abilities, damage, and defense.

Roll a new character get it to level 20. Put whatever gear on it you want too.Screen shot all your gear's stats and your abilities stats. Level to 49. Compare the gear to what you recorded at level 20. Compare the abilities to level 20. You will find you became significantly weaker than you were at level 20.

*Level 1-49( no cp) seem harder because you dont yet have CP or many of your abilities and their morphs. You also have a mix match of gear. gear that is 5 or even 10 levels old losing 10-20% of its original effectiveness.

* Original ESO content( pre one tamriel) is leveled to 50.

* Newer content is leveled to 160 which is why when you go in some dungeons below cp 160 , it buffs to you cp 160.

*Back to gear. At level 50 the game starts to become easier. The gear does not level down as drastically with CP as it did with levels. So gear is more effective longer. This gives you time to acquire gear more suited to your build as opposed to random pieces. CP increase vital areas such as your damage, resource pools, and defenses.

* At CP 160, you no longer have gear that scales down. Assuming you make logical choices in which pieces to replace and with what, you will only increase in power. The mobs stay the same level. Now you start working on good gear doing sets and improving gear. You are still increasing your power with CP. Mobs are much easier now that they was pre CP levels.

* At CP 300 you should have good ( end game beginner)gear sets on for your class and it should at least be all purple if not gold. Now non instanced content will be much easier for you. Normal dungeons should not be hard for you either if you understand the mechanics of the dungeons. You should be pulling really good dps outside of vet content.

* Above CP 300 you should have gold end game beginner or end game gear sets. Your CP will be giving very marginal returns now in areas you deem useful to your build. Vet content will vary on difficulty depending on your build, and personal abilities( light weaving, animation canceling, rotation, understanding mechanics, etc). All other content should be really easy for you.

That is how the leveling system works...There isnt one. You are on a proverbial treadmill. You have walked 100 miles and havent left your living room. Congratulations, you are playing ESO.

All of that said...

Another concept that is not understood is that ALL ESO players enjoy no grind/ no progression content. This is only partially true. All ESO players that stick around for long periods enjoy no progression. The ones that want purpose to running content already left or are currently enduring it hoping they change the system because they will have to do something with the CP system at some point. Many progression players come back briefly, when they do, only when the cap is raised. They get the new cap, see what has changed and then go back to what they were doing.

So it may feel like a majority of players like this stale system, because the ones that dont like it left. But when i compare this game to others given its age, it has extremely poor vet retention and that is an issue. You can say its because of bugs, lag etc. But in reality those players that leave for those reasons are weeded out of the entire population. A CP 300 isnt going to tolerate bugs and lag anymore than a CP 720. Everyone has a breaking point on that issue and they are all different. So in that respect, we are already excluding everyone that leaves because of bugs, etc in our stats. That means that vet retention is very low. I should be seeing a vet population around 25-50%, not 4%. And honestly it should be closer to 50% since you only have to get to max level once.

But....

ZoS has a solution for people who hate putting effort into anything and have no self control. All while giving progression players( most of the gaming population) what they need to keep their interest.

Have gear and level progression and to remove the grind, you simply fix the drops. Lets take a new end game trial as an example. The new higher cp gear drops from the bosses. Got to trial grind...nope.

Lets say their are 5 bosses in a new trial. Boss#1 drops waists, Boss #2 drops gloves, Boss #3 drops feet, Boss #4 drops leggings, Boss # 5 drops chest. You have a 1 in 3 chance for every boss to get the piece you need. You can mod your gear now, so you dont have to grind for that perfect piece. It just has to be close.

Saying progression is pointless is like saying getting better at anything is pointless. Its a complete lack of ambition and reeks of laziness. Even if someone finds it pointless NOTHING says they have to participate. Nothing says that any player need to obtain BiS to play the game. There is plenty for them to do if they dont want to progress. There is no sense in preventing everyone else on planet earth from progressing and grinding just because you dont want too. That is your choice and if the game has progression and grind is not a factor in your playstyle.

In eve online there is a safe-ish area called hi sec meant mostly for carebears and for people looking to get a break from the more demanding areas of the game. Some people NEVER leave this area. They never "progress". They also whine about how they dont get all the good stuff that people who do progress and run risks acquire. But its their choice not to leave that safe little area of the game. They dont want to progress and they dont have too. They will stay in hi sec for years. Meanwhile those that want more of a challenge have that option.

That is all games. It is YOUR choice to progress. It is YOUR choice to grind. If you dont want to do it, simply dont. If you do it just because its there and dont like it, then thats your own stupidity for doing something you hate that you dont have to do.

But ive been playing MMOs since they were literally invented and i can promise you: No progression = no player base.

You literally don't take RNG into effect in your argument, and all MMO's have RNG. You may run a trial (or raid, if you prefer) from day one until the end of an expansion and never see the drop you want, or see it the first time. Again, it's not a matter of being "lazy"....if that were so, you'd never see anyone running dungeons or trials, and that's clearly not the case.
It's because in this system...a system that's not going to change, let's be real, it makes absolutely zero sense.
You talk about player retention but then you talk about guaranteed drops...why stick around if I'm getting what I want right off the bat? Why even run content more than once?
Do you people think at all?

Xvorg · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I'm not sure you know how the game mechanics actually work. Every mob scales to max level. Increasing max item level and max mob level does nothing but INCREASE grind without any actual progression. You get right back to where you started. Explain to me, specifically, how this is progression please.

Well, why do you need better gear when there's no progression? Why golden gear, why epic runes, why the best sets for meta if nothing changes in the end?

Gold gear is actually better than purple gear. CP200 gear would be exactly the same as CP160 gear, only you'd have to regrind it. The meta shifts over time and new sets are added, which shakes things up. The game has plenty of progression. It's just that it doesn't need gear level cap increases for progression.

Yes it is. And that's why CP 200 gear will be better as well.

And as I said, I don't want any grind. I want serious progression. And in the most cases new sets don't change anything especially not the meta. Nerfs change the meta. 9/10 sets that were the best 1 or 2 years ago are still the best.

So, you want to add more maths to the spaghetti code?

No, thanks

Xvorg · March 2018

After reading this thread, I had some visons of 2014/15, when my toons were VR 7 (the strongest one) and how PAINFUL it was to level 1 VR

Also I remembered when mats were associated with zones and how PAINFUL was to get Nightwood or Voidstone.

And sets... there were just a couple of sets you were able to use in your VR range. Footman's was always a choice for tanks, but it never reached max level... Lord's Mail was decent too, but only came in VR 10 max. All maxed players on Cyro were using basically the same set. And if you wanted to be an archer, you knew you had to get that VR12 Nightmare bow, that wasn't associated to any set, just because Oblivion dmg.

I don't want to go back there... no, no, no....

starkerealm · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

Bbsample197 wrote: »

why? if were in the Vet rank system it makes sense but if everything is scaled to a certain level even if you raise the item level you wont see any difference aside from reaching the next item lvl capped like we did when 160cp capped was introduced

It works in other games as I mentioned but some of you keep saying it won't in ESO --> ESO scaling is the problem

No, scaling is a solution for a great many problems. Your desire to feel "progression," by getting bigger numbers is not on that.

What your scheme would actually achieve is, when new content came out, instead of being able to jump right in, you'd need to grind for months before you'd be geared up to deal with it, all while the old content fell completely out of relevance. So... no, that wouldn't make things better.

Scaling means there's always content you can do. Instead of being told that, no, really, there's one thing on your plate, and you can either clear it or hit the road. That's where this game was at launch. You played through the zone you had in front of you to get to the zones you actually wanted to play, or you quit. This is a better system.

SirAndy · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

/discuss

No

Beardimus · March 2018

@redspecter23 responses nail it. It would be meaningless.

I never get this need to superficially feel progression. It's odd if scaling is relative.

redspecter23 · March 2018

Beardimus wrote: »

@redspecter23 responses nail it. It would be meaningless.

I never get this need to superficially feel progression. It's odd if scaling is relative.

The need is there for some people because they just want to see bigger numbers. It doesn't matter to them if every other number also scales up at the same time. Bigger is better, right? Knowing the mechanics as well as having reasonable math skills deflates that sensation. Most of us have been around here long enough to know that if ZOS actually gave us bigger numbers, they'd nerf us somewhere else to compensate, whether it be by buffing the content or just nerfing skills and passives. There is no actual progression, only the illusion that we are progressing. It's up to ZOS to keep the majority of people fooled into thinking they're gaining when they are just running a treadmill.

D0PAMINE · March 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Its like you completly failed to read and understand the post you were quoting. @starkerealm is spot on. You're making it extremely obvious with your rambling banter that you literally do not understand how leveling and scaling in ESO works, and, on top of that, how you fail to understand that endgame is something you work towards. People set goals in this game, actual goals like completing difficult content. And very frequently, you need specific gear, and a specific rotation which can be the exact opposite of your desired playstyle. Completing challenges is rewarding, gimping the playerbase for no reason is cruel and selfish.

Not at all i understand perfectly. I figured out in the first few days of playing how the leveling system works, having modded my own games. The mobs NEVER change level or difficulty. This is not that difficult of a concept. Your gear levels down and your gear affects your abilities, damage, and defense.

Roll a new character get it to level 20. Put whatever gear on it you want too.Screen shot all your gear's stats and your abilities stats. Level to 49. Compare the gear to what you recorded at level 20. Compare the abilities to level 20. You will find you became significantly weaker than you were at level 20.

*Level 1-49( no cp) seem harder because you dont yet have CP or many of your abilities and their morphs. You also have a mix match of gear. gear that is 5 or even 10 levels old losing 10-20% of its original effectiveness.

* Original ESO content( pre one tamriel) is leveled to 50.

* Newer content is leveled to 160 which is why when you go in some dungeons below cp 160 , it buffs to you cp 160.

*Back to gear. At level 50 the game starts to become easier. The gear does not level down as drastically with CP as it did with levels. So gear is more effective longer. This gives you time to acquire gear more suited to your build as opposed to random pieces. CP increase vital areas such as your damage, resource pools, and defenses.

* At CP 160, you no longer have gear that scales down. Assuming you make logical choices in which pieces to replace and with what, you will only increase in power. The mobs stay the same level. Now you start working on good gear doing sets and improving gear. You are still increasing your power with CP. Mobs are much easier now that they was pre CP levels.

* At CP 300 you should have good ( end game beginner)gear sets on for your class and it should at least be all purple if not gold. Now non instanced content will be much easier for you. Normal dungeons should not be hard for you either if you understand the mechanics of the dungeons. You should be pulling really good dps outside of vet content.

* Above CP 300 you should have gold end game beginner or end game gear sets. Your CP will be giving very marginal returns now in areas you deem useful to your build. Vet content will vary on difficulty depending on your build, and personal abilities( light weaving, animation canceling, rotation, understanding mechanics, etc). All other content should be really easy for you.

That is how the leveling system works...There isnt one. You are on a proverbial treadmill. You have walked 100 miles and havent left your living room. Congratulations, you are playing ESO.

All of that said...

Another concept that is not understood is that ALL ESO players enjoy no grind/ no progression content. This is only partially true. All ESO players that stick around for long periods enjoy no progression. The ones that want purpose to running content already left or are currently enduring it hoping they change the system because they will have to do something with the CP system at some point. Many progression players come back briefly, when they do, only when the cap is raised. They get the new cap, see what has changed and then go back to what they were doing.

So it may feel like a majority of players like this stale system, because the ones that dont like it left. But when i compare this game to others given its age, it has extremely poor vet retention and that is an issue. You can say its because of bugs, lag etc. But in reality those players that leave for those reasons are weeded out of the entire population. A CP 300 isnt going to tolerate bugs and lag anymore than a CP 720. Everyone has a breaking point on that issue and they are all different. So in that respect, we are already excluding everyone that leaves because of bugs, etc in our stats. That means that vet retention is very low. I should be seeing a vet population around 25-50%, not 4%. And honestly it should be closer to 50% since you only have to get to max level once.

But....

ZoS has a solution for people who hate putting effort into anything and have no self control. All while giving progression players( most of the gaming population) what they need to keep their interest.

Have gear and level progression and to remove the grind, you simply fix the drops. Lets take a new end game trial as an example. The new higher cp gear drops from the bosses. Got to trial grind...nope.

Lets say their are 5 bosses in a new trial. Boss#1 drops waists, Boss #2 drops gloves, Boss #3 drops feet, Boss #4 drops leggings, Boss # 5 drops chest. You have a 1 in 3 chance for every boss to get the piece you need. You can mod your gear now, so you dont have to grind for that perfect piece. It just has to be close.

Saying progression is pointless is like saying getting better at anything is pointless. Its a complete lack of ambition and reeks of laziness. Even if someone finds it pointless NOTHING says they have to participate. Nothing says that any player need to obtain BiS to play the game. There is plenty for them to do if they dont want to progress. There is no sense in preventing everyone else on planet earth from progressing and grinding just because you dont want too. That is your choice and if the game has progression and grind is not a factor in your playstyle.

In eve online there is a safe-ish area called hi sec meant mostly for carebears and for people looking to get a break from the more demanding areas of the game. Some people NEVER leave this area. They never "progress". They also whine about how they dont get all the good stuff that people who do progress and run risks acquire. But its their choice not to leave that safe little area of the game. They dont want to progress and they dont have too. They will stay in hi sec for years. Meanwhile those that want more of a challenge have that option.

That is all games. It is YOUR choice to progress. It is YOUR choice to grind. If you dont want to do it, simply dont. If you do it just because its there and dont like it, then thats your own stupidity for doing something you hate that you dont have to do.

But ive been playing MMOs since they were literally invented and i can promise you: No progression = no player base.

The current system ESO uses wirh the OneTam changes resulted in this games player base skyrocketing. The point is that increasig the gear cap is dumb as it LITERALLY wont change a single thing except FORCING vets to REDO THEIR GEAR to get back where THEY ALREADY WERE. So no, you DO NOT understand how this scaling system works and you still havnt made a point. With ESO's current system which was seen as a positive step in the right direction, it would be stupid and futile to raise the cap when there is NO BENIFIT TO DOING SO.

starkerealm · March 2018

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Its like you completly failed to read and understand the post you were quoting. @starkerealm is spot on. You're making it extremely obvious with your rambling banter that you literally do not understand how leveling and scaling in ESO works, and, on top of that, how you fail to understand that endgame is something you work towards. People set goals in this game, actual goals like completing difficult content. And very frequently, you need specific gear, and a specific rotation which can be the exact opposite of your desired playstyle. Completing challenges is rewarding, gimping the playerbase for no reason is cruel and selfish.

Not at all i understand perfectly. I figured out in the first few days of playing how the leveling system works, having modded my own games. The mobs NEVER change level or difficulty. This is not that difficult of a concept. Your gear levels down and your gear affects your abilities, damage, and defense.

Roll a new character get it to level 20. Put whatever gear on it you want too.Screen shot all your gear's stats and your abilities stats. Level to 49. Compare the gear to what you recorded at level 20. Compare the abilities to level 20. You will find you became significantly weaker than you were at level 20.

*Level 1-49( no cp) seem harder because you dont yet have CP or many of your abilities and their morphs. You also have a mix match of gear. gear that is 5 or even 10 levels old losing 10-20% of its original effectiveness.

* Original ESO content( pre one tamriel) is leveled to 50.

* Newer content is leveled to 160 which is why when you go in some dungeons below cp 160 , it buffs to you cp 160.

*Back to gear. At level 50 the game starts to become easier. The gear does not level down as drastically with CP as it did with levels. So gear is more effective longer. This gives you time to acquire gear more suited to your build as opposed to random pieces. CP increase vital areas such as your damage, resource pools, and defenses.

* At CP 160, you no longer have gear that scales down. Assuming you make logical choices in which pieces to replace and with what, you will only increase in power. The mobs stay the same level. Now you start working on good gear doing sets and improving gear. You are still increasing your power with CP. Mobs are much easier now that they was pre CP levels.

* At CP 300 you should have good ( end game beginner)gear sets on for your class and it should at least be all purple if not gold. Now non instanced content will be much easier for you. Normal dungeons should not be hard for you either if you understand the mechanics of the dungeons. You should be pulling really good dps outside of vet content.

* Above CP 300 you should have gold end game beginner or end game gear sets. Your CP will be giving very marginal returns now in areas you deem useful to your build. Vet content will vary on difficulty depending on your build, and personal abilities( light weaving, animation canceling, rotation, understanding mechanics, etc). All other content should be really easy for you.

That is how the leveling system works...There isnt one. You are on a proverbial treadmill. You have walked 100 miles and havent left your living room. Congratulations, you are playing ESO.

All of that said...

Another concept that is not understood is that ALL ESO players enjoy no grind/ no progression content. This is only partially true. All ESO players that stick around for long periods enjoy no progression. The ones that want purpose to running content already left or are currently enduring it hoping they change the system because they will have to do something with the CP system at some point. Many progression players come back briefly, when they do, only when the cap is raised. They get the new cap, see what has changed and then go back to what they were doing.

So it may feel like a majority of players like this stale system, because the ones that dont like it left. But when i compare this game to others given its age, it has extremely poor vet retention and that is an issue. You can say its because of bugs, lag etc. But in reality those players that leave for those reasons are weeded out of the entire population. A CP 300 isnt going to tolerate bugs and lag anymore than a CP 720. Everyone has a breaking point on that issue and they are all different. So in that respect, we are already excluding everyone that leaves because of bugs, etc in our stats. That means that vet retention is very low. I should be seeing a vet population around 25-50%, not 4%. And honestly it should be closer to 50% since you only have to get to max level once.

But....

ZoS has a solution for people who hate putting effort into anything and have no self control. All while giving progression players( most of the gaming population) what they need to keep their interest.

Have gear and level progression and to remove the grind, you simply fix the drops. Lets take a new end game trial as an example. The new higher cp gear drops from the bosses. Got to trial grind...nope.

Lets say their are 5 bosses in a new trial. Boss#1 drops waists, Boss #2 drops gloves, Boss #3 drops feet, Boss #4 drops leggings, Boss # 5 drops chest. You have a 1 in 3 chance for every boss to get the piece you need. You can mod your gear now, so you dont have to grind for that perfect piece. It just has to be close.

Saying progression is pointless is like saying getting better at anything is pointless. Its a complete lack of ambition and reeks of laziness. Even if someone finds it pointless NOTHING says they have to participate. Nothing says that any player need to obtain BiS to play the game. There is plenty for them to do if they dont want to progress. There is no sense in preventing everyone else on planet earth from progressing and grinding just because you dont want too. That is your choice and if the game has progression and grind is not a factor in your playstyle.

In eve online there is a safe-ish area called hi sec meant mostly for carebears and for people looking to get a break from the more demanding areas of the game. Some people NEVER leave this area. They never "progress". They also whine about how they dont get all the good stuff that people who do progress and run risks acquire. But its their choice not to leave that safe little area of the game. They dont want to progress and they dont have too. They will stay in hi sec for years. Meanwhile those that want more of a challenge have that option.

That is all games. It is YOUR choice to progress. It is YOUR choice to grind. If you dont want to do it, simply dont. If you do it just because its there and dont like it, then thats your own stupidity for doing something you hate that you dont have to do.

But ive been playing MMOs since they were literally invented and i can promise you: No progression = no player base.

The current system ESO uses wirh the OneTam changes resulted in this games player base skyrocketing. The point is that increasig the gear cap is dumb as it LITERALLY wont change a single thing except FORCING vets to REDO THEIR GEAR to get back where THEY ALREADY WERE. So no, you DO NOT understand how this scaling system works and you still havnt made a point. With ESO's current system which was seen as a positive step in the right direction, it would be stupid and futile to raise the cap when there is NO BENIFIT TO DOING SO.

In point of fact, we've already seen what happens in other games when you lock engame players out of their content and tell them to grind their way back up. The games die. Entire chunks of that community leave, and never return. This is the current state of affairs for TOR. If you used to grind when the KotFE patch released (at least, I think it was KotFE), you were looking at grinding for six months before you could start running that content again. To say that the community was unimpressed would be an understatement. But, hey, at least that game's still on life support, right?

brimstone74 · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

brimstone74 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

... and give us an option to increase max item level via crafting etc.

I don't want to farm it all again. But without any gear progression Chapters feel pretty... stagnant.

That's why Zenimax should raise itemlevel by 30 or so with every Chapter. Tedious item grind should be no thing but there should drop ressources with which you can update your "old" gear.

/discuss

Disagree 1000%

If I wanted vertical progression, I could play almost any other MMO. I like my horizontal progression thank you very much.

No Thank You.

So rather have zero progression like it is now? I find that super boring. But that's just my opinion.

Horizontal is not zero.I find chasing big numbers that have the same outcome as last week to be boring, pointless, and tired...that is just my opinion, and well....math.

SoLooney · March 2018

this game scales so cp 160 now, will be the same to lets say new max cap gear is cp 190

why do you want another pointless grind? you have to all that bs again just to be as strong as you were before. i am not refarming and recrafting gear, not to mention regolding all that

is it because 190 looks better than 160? there is 0 point in the post you made as it takes people a lot of time and effort to get all their gear perfected. im not farming vo daggers, wm daggers, infall staves, ma staves etc etc all over again, this game is barely keeping me interested and will def be the end for a lot of people if this happened

RazorCaltrops · March 2018

Seraphayel wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Gear level increase is fake progression. No thanks.

Again, so the solution is to have absolutely no progression?

Raising gear level is just adjusting numbers which they did in HoTR patch without increasing the gear level. You have more spell/weapon crit and resource bonuses than the past + CP cap increasing each patch.

If you want grind BDO is a good choice. If you want “progress”, it’s still here.