Knowledge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Before I start, I define a Zerg as one or more organized raids +PUGs. Furthermore, Cyrodiil was designed for groups of 8 to 24 players fighting in large scale combat.

That being said, common reasons for,disliking zergs are:
1. Numerical supriority is all well and good, but at a certain point you start to feel like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae.
2. Safety in numbers means that zergs attract players with less skill at PVP, which means that zergs get a reputation for skillless play.
3. Zergs are less organized and thus less effective than organized groups, meaning they do with weight of numbers what organized groups do with tactics.

I don't actually hold those complaints myself because when I was new to PVP, zerging and safety in numbers was an important stepping stone to learning how to PVP with an organized raid, and eventually solo and small group play. Cyrodiil is a big place and its hard for a brand new player to be effective without joining up with a group, which often means joining up or following the zerg. I learned a lot from merging in those early days and it gave me a good experience that made me want to become a better PVP player.

Regardless of whatever reputation you think a zerg is getting whether it be "skilless play" or "intelligently overcoming their enemy" the goal is to win. Despite your reservations about someones ability to play the game, if they are winning none of that matters.

Knowledge wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

It destroys the server and causes unplayable fps and lag. I'm sure pepole wouldn't care if that was alleviated. For instance, CU is promising 1000s of people on screen with little performance drops and I'm excited for that. Here, 25 people on screen and everything stops working. Hence why people hate it

Zenimax isn't really responsible for your PC hardware. I have been in numerous large battles without much lag and play at the highest settings. My FPS will drop to a 40 - 50 range when I encounter a massive zerg fight but that's acceptable. Not everyone shares this issue.

itzTJ wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

My understanding of the definition of zerging in ESO PvP is - a swarm with no skill that results in a lag by button mashing, unskilled players.

The lack of skill makes it boring and the lag makes it unplayable. At least that's my understanding from listening to people who do PvP and are in the discord channel Im in.

At the same time my understanding of skill in this game is to run a meta build you farm vDSA or vMA to complete with weapons and gear and then increase all the gear to legendary whilst finding "under geared" players to beat up in Cyrodil and frown upon them if they have any friends assist them.

The idea that this game requires a lot of "skill" and isn't largely based on dice rolls for hit and crit variables is a joke.

I was thinking back on this post and realized how ridiculous what you're saying actually is. Lets say you and I are on the same exact build. Same class, same gear, etc.. If you beat me in, lets say, 5/5 fights are you better than me? Are you more skilled than me at that class. Now if you beat me and 3 of my friends, is it safe to assume you are better than all of us?

Like i said before, most of us solo for a challenge. Most of us have nothing against strategic zergs unless they are chasing us across the map, and a lot of them will leave you alone if they are trying to do something and you arent bothering them. Its the brainless ones that split up to chase you and, some of the time, end up getting killed and ruining what their group was doing. Or if enough come they will 10v1 the person they're chasing.. If thats how people like to play fine but who is going to be happy with that?? And I dont think most people believe that all zerg players are bad. Many good players i know play solo/small group, however i know more than enough good players who zerg. The reason is up to them. If they like it then good. .

Skill wins in this game, in some situations, and numbers in others. Even still, ive fought 15 bad players at once and won. It just depends on the players in the group and the amount of them.. And sure its less skill now than before one tamriel with lag, procs, and overpowered builds, but it still takes some skill. And even still, relying on others when fighting a smaller amount of players is not needed. Some of us like to play non meta builds, or something other than a stamblade, and solo with them. This game is not as RNG based as you are saying.

In your last post you said that we get geared to beat up under geared players. Not true. Most of the time i dont even attack people in cyrodil til they attack me (which is not an issue since 99.99% of the time they do). I have seen plenty of people leave bad players alone unless they attack. I like to fight players who think they are good. Them and their friends and win or lose we will both have a good fight. At the end of the day i just think people should do what they want but i will never agree that solo pvp is not the most challenging thing to do in cyrodil.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Before I start, I define a Zerg as one or more organized raids +PUGs. Furthermore, Cyrodiil was designed for groups of 8 to 24 players fighting in large scale combat.

That being said, common reasons for,disliking zergs are:
1. Numerical supriority is all well and good, but at a certain point you start to feel like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae.
2. Safety in numbers means that zergs attract players with less skill at PVP, which means that zergs get a reputation for skillless play.
3. Zergs are less organized and thus less effective than organized groups, meaning they do with weight of numbers what organized groups do with tactics.

I don't actually hold those complaints myself because when I was new to PVP, zerging and safety in numbers was an important stepping stone to learning how to PVP with an organized raid, and eventually solo and small group play. Cyrodiil is a big place and its hard for a brand new player to be effective without joining up with a group, which often means joining up or following the zerg. I learned a lot from merging in those early days and it gave me a good experience that made me want to become a better PVP player.

Regardless of whatever reputation you think a zerg is getting whether it be "skilless play" or "intelligently overcoming their enemy" the goal is to win. Despite your reservations about someones ability to play the game, if they are winning none of that matters.

I get the goal is to win point of view but I would rather be known for my gaming prowess and not my lemming like behaviour. It's like getting into a fist fight with a school mate and mid fight you strip nakid to scare him away, then being confused why ppl don't like you anymore at your school. If you don't care to gain other ppls respect the sure but otherwise I would advise against it

Venom4You wrote: »

I am actually really concerned for the future of ESO pvp when I read the incredible amount of comments claiming that cyrodiils recent faction zerg action is what the devs had in mind. Its not true.

When the game came out there was action all over the map. because people spread out and attacked different objectives. mostly that was due to guilds actually attacking keeps and outposts away from their factions random pug zerg. as a result a lot of ungrouped players had the choice of going to different ua locations on the map resulting in multiple „small“ zergs fighting each other all over the palce thereby creating better pvp and map playability.
today even at primetime we see a maximum of 2-3 fighting signs on the map between freaking faction stacks with most guilds - who could creat new action elsewhere - deliberately stacking with all the random players. this behaviour kills pvp, kills fun, makes most of cyrodiils map completely unused and useless. guilds need to start creating action again. and not just running like lemmings to already existing fights. To be fair - ZOS is also responsible for this development by consistently nerfing coordinated guild play (for all skill levels) and making it very hard for casual guilds to succeed on their own without investing in training. but well guys: you got to adapt - pls.

when people say the current faction zergs are normal and healthy they obviously didn’t pvp back in 2014-2015. that was good pvp with guilds actively communicating with each other in order to make cyrodiil a fun playing ground. for the love of god...stop saying the current pvp state is alright. people need to change their attitude if cyrodiils pvp is to survive the coming years.

Knowledge wrote: »

Venom4You wrote: »

I am actually really concerned for the future of ESO pvp when I read the incredible amount of comments claiming that cyrodiils recent faction zerg action is what the devs had in mind. Its not true.

When the game came out there was action all over the map. because people spread out and attacked different objectives. mostly that was due to guilds actually attacking keeps and outposts away from their factions random pug zerg. as a result a lot of ungrouped players had the choice of going to different ua locations on the map resulting in multiple „small“ zergs fighting each other all over the palce thereby creating better pvp and map playability.
today even at primetime we see a maximum of 2-3 fighting signs on the map between freaking faction stacks with most guilds - who could creat new action elsewhere - deliberately stacking with all the random players. this behaviour kills pvp, kills fun, makes most of cyrodiils map completely unused and useless. guilds need to start creating action again. and not just running like lemmings to already existing fights. To be fair - ZOS is also responsible for this development by consistently nerfing coordinated guild play (for all skill levels) and making it very hard for casual guilds to succeed on their own without investing in training. but well guys: you got to adapt - pls.

when people say the current faction zergs are normal and healthy they obviously didn’t pvp back in 2014-2015. that was good pvp with guilds actively communicating with each other in order to make cyrodiil a fun playing ground. for the love of god...stop saying the current pvp state is alright. people need to change their attitude if cyrodiils pvp is to survive the coming years.

The PVP is far from dead with Vivec showing three locks during prime time with a healthy queue. If anything, all of these "lemmings" as you call them are keeping the PVP alive. The zergs are a result of larger amounts of people partaking than ever before. This game is growing.

KeiruNicrom wrote: »

I feel the major reasoning against zergs is the lack of coordination. A group size above 8 usually means random builds, little to no focus fire, and people spamming a few abilities rather that working through a rotation. This is not always the case but occurs often enough to become the norm.

Compare these zergs to pve trial groups that have coordinated their builds to compliment or assist each other while also having clear communication in what each player is asked to accomplish. The zerg looks like a mess in comparison and gives it a sense of being lesser, barbaric even. Even compared to the small 4 man pvp groups zergs have less coordination, and compared to solo play which requires planning, combos, timing, etc to be effective a zerg more often than not just gathers numbers and charges in. No planning, no strategy

Is it a legitimate strategy? Sure. Anything that isnt cheating and gives you a win is legitimate. But then again so is spawn camping in shooters and spawn campers are hated by most.

Zerging is disliked for the lack of preperation and effort for maximum gains. It is lazy, but effective. Thus those that consider themselves skilled and deticated turn their noses up at the zerg as a lesser or cheap strategy