Why is "zerging" frowned upon in this game and other MMORPGs?

Geroken777

Knowledge wrote: »

KeiruNicrom wrote: »

I feel the major reasoning against zergs is the lack of coordination. A group size above 8 usually means random builds, little to no focus fire, and people spamming a few abilities rather that working through a rotation. This is not always the case but occurs often enough to become the norm.

Compare these zergs to pve trial groups that have coordinated their builds to compliment or assist each other while also having clear communication in what each player is asked to accomplish. The zerg looks like a mess in comparison and gives it a sense of being lesser, barbaric even. Even compared to the small 4 man pvp groups zergs have less coordination, and compared to solo play which requires planning, combos, timing, etc to be effective a zerg more often than not just gathers numbers and charges in. No planning, no strategy

Is it a legitimate strategy? Sure. Anything that isnt cheating and gives you a win is legitimate. But then again so is spawn camping in shooters and spawn campers are hated by most.

Zerging is disliked for the lack of preperation and effort for maximum gains. It is lazy, but effective. Thus those that consider themselves skilled and deticated turn their noses up at the zerg as a lesser or cheap strategy

The goal in warfare should be to maximize gains with the least effort possible.

As Sun Tzu said, "The clever combatant looks to the effect of combined energy, and does not require too much from individuals."

The goal in a warfare is to win the warfare, despite the outcome or what has been used. I'll repeat my previous comment:

War has no rules.

EDIT:

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Geroken777 wrote: »

Wars don't have rules. Please learn this.

Games have rules, though.
So please, dont use cheats or exploits.

Cheats are a whole another case, this post is about somebody whining that zergs (just like a big army in real life) is overpowered.

The_Brosteen

Voxicity wrote: »

Just tryhards getting mad because they died in a video game. That's when the word Zerg comes out. Nothing else to it

This is extremely truthful, I was told I was zerging once when I fought alone against 2 players. I took a recording to check and see if I was crazy and saw that another player on my faction showed up right before I killed the second guy and got a light attack in on him.

So for tl;dr:
minimum contact to qualify as zerging is fighting with even numbers but half of your group is only using one light attack. If you win you are a dirty zergling if you lose, git gud kid.

True tl;dr: everything is considered zerging.

Qbiken

Are people really complaining about 40-50 fps???.........

*cires in -10 fps.......xD

FearlessOne_2014

Knowledge wrote: »

Numerical superiority can offer you massive advantages in warfare. In pitched battles numbers can turn the tides of a battle or an entire campaign. For this reason it would only make sense for a faction/nation/alliance to outnumber their adversary. Not only does this offer the person with greater numbers a higher probability of winning but it also allows them to reinforce failing positions or positions that would have otherwise be overrun by reinforcing it with auxiliaries. This is true in real life and in games.

Furthermore, this game is all a giant equation. Add more numbers to your equation and you gain a significant edge over your enemy. There is a minor amount of skill in this game with the active combat system but it is not the same as a true active combat game like an FPS title. In this game some attacks land regardless of accuracy to a degree. Some even cover entire positions or areas (AOE). This being said you can overcome the skill of your opponent by overwhelming them with a numerical advantage. This means despite an individuals efforts to hone their skill, gear, and abilities to maximize 1vX efficiency it becomes in vain after a large enough force faces them.

The illusion that "skill" in this game is derived from playing against larger forces with a smaller one is based partly on the belief that the active combat system portrays your personal skill over the numbers or equations in the background. The equations are actually determining fifty to sixty percent of the outcome of the battle. Those wishing to be "elite" or play the role of a "Special Forces Operator" or "Navy Seal" by fighting zergs with smaller amounts of people on purpose or deliberately are not really attaining much and the respect earned is therefore not really deserved.

It is for this reason that I ask the community why not zerg? Why not promote zerging? If you wish to fight fair battles simply play a Battleground Grab Bag match. There's no need to try to modify or tune Cyrodil to be a NAVY SEAL Operator paradise where the community must frown on large numbers. In a war conflicts are often unfair. it is often the sole goal of a commander to outnumber his enemy. So please stop discouraging the mentality of zerging it is a necessity in warfare and Cyrodil is the simulation of the Three Banners War.

I honestly don't mind the concept of zergs and zerglings. They have a legitimate purpose to any war IRL or in a game. They are a mob who are mechanically inferior. Thus as a survival instinct use strength in numbers. To even or even tip the balance in their favor. Which I have no issues with at all.

What I do have issues with is, zerging being the only way to win. Like in GW2 as a prime example of what happens when you give a huge advantage to numbers over skill. You end up with servers like Blackgate over here in ESO instead. Because at that point it's truly a situation of, out-zerg or get out zerged.

What I'm saying is in my opinion their needs to be a equal ground like in IRL between zergs and highly specialized combat operation units. So that the battle never becomes stale, and lead to another RvR-like mode where the players stop playing period. The balance must be realized and kept. In order to promote a fun and meaningful PvP experience for many different types of players.

Etaniel

People need to stop comparing real life war to video games, it's ridiculous.
You're in a video game, video games are meant to be fun, war is not.
The main objective when playing , is to have fun, not to win. Winning is only a path to obtain fun for most people.

Smmokkee

Knowledge wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

It destroys the server and causes unplayable fps and lag. I'm sure pepole wouldn't care if that was alleviated. For instance, CU is promising 1000s of people on screen with little performance drops and I'm excited for that. Here, 25 people on screen and everything stops working. Hence why people hate it

Zenimax isn't really responsible for your PC hardware. I have been in numerous large battles without much lag and play at the highest settings. My FPS will drop to a 40 - 50 range when I encounter a massive zerg fight but that's acceptable. Not everyone shares this issue.

Bahahahahaha.. you and the 5 others.. k.

Smmokkee

Knowledge wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

My understanding of the definition of zerging in ESO PvP is - a swarm with no skill that results in a lag by button mashing, unskilled players.

The lack of skill makes it boring and the lag makes it unplayable. At least that's my understanding from listening to people who do PvP and are in the discord channel Im in.

At the same time my understanding of skill in this game is to run a meta build you farm vDSA or vMA to complete with weapons and gear and then increase all the gear to legendary whilst finding "under geared" players to beat up in Cyrodil and frown upon them if they have any friends assist them.

The idea that this game requires a lot of "skill" and isn't largely based on dice rolls for hit and crit variables is a joke.

People who say a game doesnt involve skill when there are cleary people better and worse than you.. k.

Rickter

So listen i feel like the basic concept of why zerging is generally regarded as "no skill" or "frowned upon" has already been answered over and over by some other posters in this thread and they are continually met with a rebuttal that i find quite strange.

This um, "war has no rules" concept. Some going as far as to bring up Sun Tzu's concepts of real war.

I think we all need to come back down to earth and think about this from a different perspective:

ESO is not real war. Cyrodiil does not simulate in the least to real war. ESO is a game. stop thinking about the enemy as a faceless foot soldier that needs to be defeated at any cost

this is ridiculous.

Think of ESO as a game of soccer or hell, when strategy is applied, a game of chess. When i played soccer, at the end of a game, we lined up and shook the hands of the other team. Good sportsmanship is a phrase you need to live by. The people you fight in pvp home on a campaign and thus create a continual subculture for that server. These are real people you see every day like your own guild mates. Treat them like humans.

This is a damn game people. You do not need to win at all costs. You do not need to beat your opponent into submission.

learn that and maybe you'll stop zerging.

__________________________________________________________________________________

Lets talk about what a zerg is: There is a Cyrodiil Feedback Group that is in contact with ZOS and one of the first things we did to get on the same page was to define some things in Cyrodiil so we could address them uniformly. Zerging was one of those terms we wanted to define as it is thrown around quite a bit and what we came up with is:

Zerg: Any number larger than necessary to accomplish an objective

With that being said, 50v50v50 at Chalman keep for the final dethrone is not zerging. thats a "Faction Stack" and arguably necessary for a dethrone objective.

however, 2 players duoing and 11 players run them down is most definitely zerging. Even if those duo players were worth twice their number, fighitng 11 opponents that are organized to a certain degree, is no contest for the 11 players. Tell me how much skill you needed to run 2 players down with say a popular meta of destro ultimate, proxy detonation, grothdarr, warden perma frost?

not much.

and hence the disdain and general disregard for such behavior.

techprince

"Zerging" is frowned upon in this game mostly by those 1 vs X'ers who die, then get tbagged by many. Then they start trash talking in whispers demanding for 1 vs 1. Its an Alliance vs Alliance large scale pvp area, what did you expect? a lollipop?

PhoenixGrey

Being a solo player, I do not like to be zerged down. But the main reason I dislike zergs is because it's a lag fest when a zerg approaches making it unplayable.

Sky_WK

Never understood this either. I've played some FPS games that had the habit of calling people "teamers" since the enemy team 2v1ed you... Sorry go to Wayrest and duel if you want 1v1s.

Ranger209

Without a mission system that directs people to certain areas to fight there will always be zerging. There are too many solo players that don't know where to go so they follow the zerg. Those players need an alternate form of direction other than following the zerg that a mission system might give them. Not the current mission system that they have. It is weak and requires you to return to your base camp every time you complete one. It needs to be comprehensive and accessible from anywhere on the map that your faction controls. It needs to have limits on participants and send people to attack/defend a POI in concert with another faction that needs to defend attack the same POI..... Long live the Zerg.

Sandman929

"Zerg" has now just become something the losing side says to explain a loss. If you're in an organized group of 16-20, with players performing roles to maximize group effectiveness and trying to get into fights where you're outnumbered, you'll still get called a "zergling" by the solo player who was surfing along side the 30-40 other solo players if they happen to die when you attack the mob that they are right next to (but certainly not grouped with, because they're solo players).

raasdal

VaranisArano wrote: »

When my faction has one or more organized raids plus PUGs show up at the same objective, its strategic movement in support of our faction to capture an important objective.

When the other faction(s) have one or more organized raids plus PUGs show up at the same objective, they're zerging and should be ashamed of themselves.

This wins the thread. This statement encompasses everything from Zerging to Nightcapping. You can close this thread now.

CatchMeTrolling

Pro zergers and pro small scalers are equally toxic, so don’t think you’re completely right either especially with that pretentious/condescending tone. At this point you should know people are allowed to play how they want to.

The biggest issue isn’t that people are actually zerging, it’s how they zerg. Such as chasing someone down from ash to the imperial gate, ult bombing one person then group bag one player, zerg people down then have the nerve to say you suck or t bag you because it took 5 mins for them to kill one player. Small scalers aren’t innocent but don’t act like large scale players are because they’re not.

Knowledge

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Pro zergers and pro small scalers are equally toxic, so don’t think you’re completely right either especially with that pretentious/condescending tone. At this point you should know people are allowed to play how they want to.

The biggest issue isn’t that people are actually zerging, it’s how they zerg. Such as chasing someone down from ash to the imperial gate, ult bombing one person then group bag one player, zerg people down then have the nerve to say you suck or t bag you because it took 5 mins for them to kill one player. Small scalers aren’t innocent but don’t act like large scale players are because they’re not.

You have to remember that chasing down a lone wolf with a zerg herd is a strategy in its self. What is happening is the zerg is trying to demoralize that individual from playing which is a valid tactic for winning. The more geared "elite" players that are discouraged into not fighting the easier it is for your faction to win the objectives.

We have to win at any cost and relentlessly chase down all adversaries.

Sandman929

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Pro zergers and pro small scalers are equally toxic, so don’t think you’re completely right either especially with that pretentious/condescending tone. At this point you should know people are allowed to play how they want to.

The biggest issue isn’t that people are actually zerging, it’s how they zerg. Such as chasing someone down from ash to the imperial gate, ult bombing one person then group bag one player, zerg people down then have the nerve to say you suck or t bag you because it took 5 mins for them to kill one player. Small scalers aren’t innocent but don’t act like large scale players are because they’re not.

Some absolutely aren't and they'll just mob and bag anything they come across. As for chasing too long, I try to avoid it, but if a solo player or a small group picks at our heels we'll absolutely turn and run them down. Everyone gets a freebie, but if they keep it up, they're just slowing us down to the larger fight that we're trying to get to and they need to be stopped. IMO a group larger than 10 should be out making their own fights, and avoiding their own factions zergs unless it's needed to dethrone or hold onto Emp. But that isn't everyone's philosophy.

ZOS_Mika

We have recently removed several unnecessary and baiting comments from this thread. If this discussion cannot remain civil and constructive, we will have to consider closing it down. Thank you for your understanding.

Knowledge

ZOS_MikaS wrote: »

We have recently removed several unnecessary and baiting comments from this thread. If this discussion cannot remain civil and constructive, we will have to consider closing it down. Thank you for your understanding.

Thanks for cleaning up the thread and for your service as a community moderator.

Guys can we please try to tone down the rhetoric so we can keep this thread going with constructive discussion?

CatchMeTrolling

Knowledge wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Pro zergers and pro small scalers are equally toxic, so don’t think you’re completely right either especially with that pretentious/condescending tone. At this point you should know people are allowed to play how they want to.

The biggest issue isn’t that people are actually zerging, it’s how they zerg. Such as chasing someone down from ash to the imperial gate, ult bombing one person then group bag one player, zerg people down then have the nerve to say you suck or t bag you because it took 5 mins for them to kill one player. Small scalers aren’t innocent but don’t act like large scale players are because they’re not.

You have to remember that chasing down a lone wolf with a zerg herd is a strategy in its self. What is happening is the zerg is trying to demoralize that individual from playing which is a valid tactic for winning. The more geared "elite" players that are discouraged into not fighting the easier it is for your faction to win the objectives.

We have to win at any cost and relentlessly chase down all adversaries.

A solo guy isn’t a threat to any objective, if anything they’re a nuisance. Doesn’t really discourage anything, just makes that player want to be a nuisance even more. When I go to cyrodiil I look to be outnumbered so I’m not going to complain when I get what I’m looking for. I’m not going to get mad because people are zerging , zos practically set the map up in a way it encourages it. If anything bothers me it’s thirsty groups, such as being the only member of my alliance on the left side of the map and your group decides to chase me like I’m the emperor. That’s just terrible group play and leadership.

CatchMeTrolling

Sandman929 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Pro zergers and pro small scalers are equally toxic, so don’t think you’re completely right either especially with that pretentious/condescending tone. At this point you should know people are allowed to play how they want to.

The biggest issue isn’t that people are actually zerging, it’s how they zerg. Such as chasing someone down from ash to the imperial gate, ult bombing one person then group bag one player, zerg people down then have the nerve to say you suck or t bag you because it took 5 mins for them to kill one player. Small scalers aren’t innocent but don’t act like large scale players are because they’re not.

Some absolutely aren't and they'll just mob and bag anything they come across. As for chasing too long, I try to avoid it, but if a solo player or a small group picks at our heels we'll absolutely turn and run them down. Everyone gets a freebie, but if they keep it up, they're just slowing us down to the larger fight that we're trying to get to and they need to be stopped. IMO a group larger than 10 should be out making their own fights, and avoiding their own factions zergs unless it's needed to dethrone or hold onto Emp. But that isn't everyone's philosophy.

I mean if I’m baiting people I expect them to eventually try to kill me. I don’t really do groups these days, not really my thing unless it’s to fight big groups. Nothing more than 6, unless it’s an emp group.

Most of the time I’m in bgs, the other time spent is trying to find a good fight in cyrodiil.

VaranisArano

Knowledge wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Pro zergers and pro small scalers are equally toxic, so don’t think you’re completely right either especially with that pretentious/condescending tone. At this point you should know people are allowed to play how they want to.

The biggest issue isn’t that people are actually zerging, it’s how they zerg. Such as chasing someone down from ash to the imperial gate, ult bombing one person then group bag one player, zerg people down then have the nerve to say you suck or t bag you because it took 5 mins for them to kill one player. Small scalers aren’t innocent but don’t act like large scale players are because they’re not.

You have to remember that chasing down a lone wolf with a zerg herd is a strategy in its self. What is happening is the zerg is trying to demoralize that individual from playing which is a valid tactic for winning. The more geared "elite" players that are discouraged into not fighting the easier it is for your faction to win the objectives.

We have to win at any cost and relentlessly chase down all adversaries.

Sure. We're totally doing it to demoralize our adversaries and not squirreling off to chase down that one guy we spotted.

LadyNalcarya

Geroken777 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

KeiruNicrom wrote: »

I feel the major reasoning against zergs is the lack of coordination. A group size above 8 usually means random builds, little to no focus fire, and people spamming a few abilities rather that working through a rotation. This is not always the case but occurs often enough to become the norm.

Compare these zergs to pve trial groups that have coordinated their builds to compliment or assist each other while also having clear communication in what each player is asked to accomplish. The zerg looks like a mess in comparison and gives it a sense of being lesser, barbaric even. Even compared to the small 4 man pvp groups zergs have less coordination, and compared to solo play which requires planning, combos, timing, etc to be effective a zerg more often than not just gathers numbers and charges in. No planning, no strategy

Is it a legitimate strategy? Sure. Anything that isnt cheating and gives you a win is legitimate. But then again so is spawn camping in shooters and spawn campers are hated by most.

Zerging is disliked for the lack of preperation and effort for maximum gains. It is lazy, but effective. Thus those that consider themselves skilled and deticated turn their noses up at the zerg as a lesser or cheap strategy

The goal in warfare should be to maximize gains with the least effort possible.

As Sun Tzu said, "The clever combatant looks to the effect of combined energy, and does not require too much from individuals."

The goal in a warfare is to win the warfare, despite the outcome or what has been used. I'll repeat my previous comment:

War has no rules.

EDIT:

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Geroken777 wrote: »

Wars don't have rules. Please learn this.

Games have rules, though.
So please, dont use cheats or exploits.

Cheats are a whole another case, this post is about somebody whining that zergs (just like a big army in real life) is overpowered.

Again: this is a game. This is not real war. The goals of those 2 are completely different.
Besides, if we would continue your comparison, in real life youre not starting lagging and there were battles where a smaller army would defeat a bigger one if they had a better strategy. Zergs in eso have no real counterplay and unlike real life armies they are disorganized. If we imagine a historical battle where one side suddenly starts running around doing random things, theyre not going to win.

Dudis

I dont think most people mind zergin as in sieging keeps or playing the whole objective game. The zerging that is frowned upon is the kind of zerging that is basically ganking with a large group.

Suddenly getting zerged while having a fair fight is basically the same feeling as when you get thrown of your horse and die to a ganker before your character even stands up. It's just not very fun and you feel cheated.

And just like playing a high dmg glass-canon gank build, it does in fact not take a lot of skill (not that i think that's people main grief with getting ganked).

ced30

Etaniel wrote: »

People need to stop comparing real life war to video games, it's ridiculous.
You're in a video game, video games are meant to be fun, war is not.
The main objective when playing , is to have fun, not to win. Winning is only a path to obtain fun for most people.

THIS

Dreth

Rapids now...group 1 bomb now....purge now. Rinse and repeat till other zerg is dead.

WAIT! Earthgore procced!

Rapids now...group 2 bomb now....purge now.

What a blast!

Caleb_Kadesh

You know what complaining about zergs is like? "It's like complaining against Wednesdays. Wednesdays... are a fact of life, and if you don't like them, you could just stay in bed, but you can't stop them because Wednesdays are coming and if today isn't actually a Wednesday it soon will be."

pieratsos

Knowledge wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Pro zergers and pro small scalers are equally toxic, so don’t think you’re completely right either especially with that pretentious/condescending tone. At this point you should know people are allowed to play how they want to.

The biggest issue isn’t that people are actually zerging, it’s how they zerg. Such as chasing someone down from ash to the imperial gate, ult bombing one person then group bag one player, zerg people down then have the nerve to say you suck or t bag you because it took 5 mins for them to kill one player. Small scalers aren’t innocent but don’t act like large scale players are because they’re not.

You have to remember that chasing down a lone wolf with a zerg herd is a strategy in its self. What is happening is the zerg is trying to demoralize that individual from playing which is a valid tactic for winning. The more geared "elite" players that are discouraged into not fighting the easier it is for your faction to win the objectives.

We have to win at any cost and relentlessly chase down all adversaries.

This isnt real war. If you want real war feel free to serve ur country. This is a game. Discouraging people from actually fighting is the exact opposite of what a game should be doing. Which is, you know, actually encouraging you to play it? I mean, that makes sense, no?

The funny thing is that people who play in those huge groups still dont get one thing. They actually think that solo/small group players hate large battles or fighting outnumbered or whatever. Which couldnt actually be further from the truth. For starters they actually enjoy being outnumbered and trying to overcome the odds, thats why the choose to play solo in the first place. And i can guarantee you that the majority of them actually enjoy huge chaotic battles/sieges. This was actually the selling point of the game, the main reason people actually started PVP, and back in 2014 it was literally the only thing that this game was praised for. It was getting backlash for everything except for PVP. it was getting praised for the massive enjoyable PVP gameplay it offered.

So you see, the issue isnt actually zerging as in, huge battles or fighting outnumbered. People actually enjoy that. What they dont like is mindless zerging. Like running around a tower for 10 minutes chasing one random guy spamming every bs mechanic, ability in the game and even sieging him, so thirsty to split those 2k AP between 20 people and then tbag him for good measure. Or running around in a ball mindlessly spamming abilities removing effectively any counterplay and also bringing the servers to their knees to the point where the game becomes unplayable.

CapuchinSeven

Knowledge wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

It destroys the server and causes unplayable fps and lag. I'm sure pepole wouldn't care if that was alleviated. For instance, CU is promising 1000s of people on screen with little performance drops and I'm excited for that. Here, 25 people on screen and everything stops working. Hence why people hate it

Zenimax isn't really responsible for your PC hardware. I have been in numerous large battles without much lag and play at the highest settings. My FPS will drop to a 40 - 50 range when I encounter a massive zerg fight but that's acceptable. Not everyone shares this issue.

Posts like this crack me up, firstly you're confusing network lag and server performance with graphical lag (or lack of performance and frame rate) my watercooled overclocked i7 with watercooled 1080ti will lag as badly as someone with a 7 year old PC in situations where the ZOS servers are under a load and under strain.

Secondly players on the PS4 and Xbox also suffer the same PVP lag which totally kills your argument.

ZOS servers can't handle large scale PVP, it's past the point where they'll ever do anything substantial about it.

Jsmalls

I second the comment regarding stressing the servers to the point of unplayability...

And... 15 people pressing one button against one players isn't fun for anyone involved. Using your full sandbox, and countering and attacking when you are suppose to is fun.

That being said, the real problem with Zergs is everyone wants to run a 30k health heavy armor/high resistance build that does minimal damage then jump into a large group so everyone can do minimal damage together and kill people. Once upon a time cyrodiil wasn't like that... And at that time go ahead and Zerg me, I'll kite you and take you out in semi small scale. Now you'll just go full defensive and not even bother attacking until you have at least 5 players standing next to you.

I'm talking to you ESO community, get gud.