Why is "zerging" frowned upon in this game and other MMORPGs?

Knowledge

Numerical superiority can offer you massive advantages in warfare. In pitched battles numbers can turn the tides of a battle or an entire campaign. For this reason it would only make sense for a faction/nation/alliance to outnumber their adversary. Not only does this offer the person with greater numbers a higher probability of winning but it also allows them to reinforce failing positions or positions that would have otherwise be overrun by reinforcing it with auxiliaries. This is true in real life and in games.

Furthermore, this game is all a giant equation. Add more numbers to your equation and you gain a significant edge over your enemy. There is a minor amount of skill in this game with the active combat system but it is not the same as a true active combat game like an FPS title. In this game some attacks land regardless of accuracy to a degree. Some even cover entire positions or areas (AOE). This being said you can overcome the skill of your opponent by overwhelming them with a numerical advantage. This means despite an individuals efforts to hone their skill, gear, and abilities to maximize 1vX efficiency it becomes in vain after a large enough force faces them.

The illusion that "skill" in this game is derived from playing against larger forces with a smaller one is based partly on the belief that the active combat system portrays your personal skill over the numbers or equations in the background. The equations are actually determining fifty to sixty percent of the outcome of the battle. Those wishing to be "elite" or play the role of a "Special Forces Operator" or "Navy Seal" by fighting zergs with smaller amounts of people on purpose or deliberately are not really attaining much and the respect earned is therefore not really deserved.

It is for this reason that I ask the community why not zerg? Why not promote zerging? If you wish to fight fair battles simply play a Battleground Grab Bag match. There's no need to try to modify or tune Cyrodil to be a NAVY SEAL Operator paradise where the community must frown on large numbers. In a war conflicts are often unfair. it is often the sole goal of a commander to outnumber his enemy. So please stop discouraging the mentality of zerging it is a necessity in warfare and Cyrodil is the simulation of the Three Banners War.

DKsUnite

It destroys the server and causes unplayable fps and lag. I'm sure pepole wouldn't care if that was alleviated. For instance, CU is promising 1000s of people on screen with little performance drops and I'm excited for that. Here, 25 people on screen and everything stops working. Hence why people hate it

Knowledge

DKsUnite wrote: »

It destroys the server and causes unplayable fps and lag. I'm sure pepole wouldn't care if that was alleviated. For instance, CU is promising 1000s of people on screen with little performance drops and I'm excited for that. Here, 25 people on screen and everything stops working. Hence why people hate it

Zenimax isn't really responsible for your PC hardware. I have been in numerous large battles without much lag and play at the highest settings. My FPS will drop to a 40 - 50 range when I encounter a massive zerg fight but that's acceptable. Not everyone shares this issue.

Runefang

I've been in groups of ~50 in Cyro that were fighting other groups of ~50 and people in my group were complaining the other alliance was 'zerging'. I mean the sheer hypocrisy of it is astounding.

The ability of humans to excuse their own actions while failing to excuse the same actions done by others will never cease to amaze me.

VaranisArano

Before I start, I define a Zerg as one or more organized raids +PUGs. Furthermore, Cyrodiil was designed for groups of 8 to 24 players fighting in large scale combat.

That being said, common reasons for,disliking zergs are:
1. Numerical supriority is all well and good, but at a certain point you start to feel like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae.
2. Safety in numbers means that zergs attract players with less skill at PVP, which means that zergs get a reputation for skillless play.
3. Zergs are less organized and thus less effective than organized groups, meaning they do with weight of numbers what organized groups do with tactics.

I don't actually hold those complaints myself because when I was new to PVP, zerging and safety in numbers was an important stepping stone to learning how to PVP with an organized raid, and eventually solo and small group play. Cyrodiil is a big place and its hard for a brand new player to be effective without joining up with a group, which often means joining up or following the zerg. I learned a lot from merging in those early days and it gave me a good experience that made me want to become a better PVP player.

Ley

I never really understood this issue. Zergs are inevitable and for those who don't wish to be a part of a zerg, there are always other options.

jedtb16_ESO

Runefang wrote: »

I've been in groups of ~50 in Cyro that were fighting other groups of ~50 and people in my group were complaining the other alliance was 'zerging'. I mean the sheer hypocrisy of it is astounding.

The ability of humans to excuse their own actions while failing to excuse the same actions done by others will never cease to amaze me.

^this.

Knowledge

VaranisArano wrote: »

Before I start, I define a Zerg as one or more organized raids +PUGs. Furthermore, Cyrodiil was designed for groups of 8 to 24 players fighting in large scale combat.

That being said, common reasons for,disliking zergs are:
1. Numerical supriority is all well and good, but at a certain point you start to feel like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae.
2. Safety in numbers means that zergs attract players with less skill at PVP, which means that zergs get a reputation for skillless play.
3. Zergs are less organized and thus less effective than organized groups, meaning they do with weight of numbers what organized groups do with tactics.

I don't actually hold those complaints myself because when I was new to PVP, zerging and safety in numbers was an important stepping stone to learning how to PVP with an organized raid, and eventually solo and small group play. Cyrodiil is a big place and its hard for a brand new player to be effective without joining up with a group, which often means joining up or following the zerg. I learned a lot from merging in those early days and it gave me a good experience that made me want to become a better PVP player.

Regardless of whatever reputation you think a zerg is getting whether it be "skilless play" or "intelligently overcoming their enemy" the goal is to win. Despite your reservations about someones ability to play the game, if they are winning none of that matters.

VaranisArano

Knowledge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Before I start, I define a Zerg as one or more organized raids +PUGs. Furthermore, Cyrodiil was designed for groups of 8 to 24 players fighting in large scale combat.

That being said, common reasons for,disliking zergs are:
1. Numerical supriority is all well and good, but at a certain point you start to feel like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae.
2. Safety in numbers means that zergs attract players with less skill at PVP, which means that zergs get a reputation for skillless play.
3. Zergs are less organized and thus less effective than organized groups, meaning they do with weight of numbers what organized groups do with tactics.

I don't actually hold those complaints myself because when I was new to PVP, zerging and safety in numbers was an important stepping stone to learning how to PVP with an organized raid, and eventually solo and small group play. Cyrodiil is a big place and its hard for a brand new player to be effective without joining up with a group, which often means joining up or following the zerg. I learned a lot from merging in those early days and it gave me a good experience that made me want to become a better PVP player.

Regardless of whatever reputation you think a zerg is getting whether it be "skilless play" or "intelligently overcoming their enemy" the goal is to win. Despite your reservations about someones ability to play the game, if they are winning none of that matters.

To be entirely clear, I don't think zerging is skillless play, but it is certainly something I've heard players say about zerging.

LiesandEther

Cryodiil is siege warfare with objective based game play. It is meant for large groups attacking and defending objectives. It is not a FPS where the focus is small scale combat. Hence the introduction of battlegrounds. Then you just have people complain about broke builds. You're never going to make everyone happy.

VaranisArano

When my faction has one or more organized raids plus PUGs show up at the same objective, its strategic movement in support of our faction to capture an important objective.

When the other faction(s) have one or more organized raids plus PUGs show up at the same objective, they're zerging and should be ashamed of themselves.

eso_lags

I think its because of the fact that most zergs have a bad habit of chasing one player all over the map til one of two things happen; They kill and Tbag you, or enough players stop chasing til theres only a few left and the one player can kill them. The only issue i have with zergs is that they make the game lag and chase me down. Zergs are needed to take keeps which get me around the map.

But I think people dont respect zerg players because its taking the easy way out and 99% of the time people who zerg aren't very good at the game.. if i can kill you and your 5 friends by myself then you aren't very good at the game. But if playing with 50 people in a zerg is what makes you happy then good. If playing casually is what makes you happy then good. Do what makes you happy. But imo your whole post is wrong. For me solo pvp is about giving myself a challenge, with no help from others. Obv i cant beat 50 people, obv i cant beat 20 people, but what happens when a solo player runs into a few people on the way to the zerg? Like i said the point is a challenge for me..

Besides solo pvp is dying. This game lags too much.

Daimmyo

Yeah, 30 characters hitting the keyboard hard against 2 characters of opposite faction is for sure hard and challenging task.

Voxicity

Just tryhards getting mad because they died in a video game. That's when the word Zerg comes out. Nothing else to it

eso_lags

Knowledge wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

It destroys the server and causes unplayable fps and lag. I'm sure pepole wouldn't care if that was alleviated. For instance, CU is promising 1000s of people on screen with little performance drops and I'm excited for that. Here, 25 people on screen and everything stops working. Hence why people hate it

Zenimax isn't really responsible for your PC hardware. I have been in numerous large battles without much lag and play at the highest settings. My FPS will drop to a 40 - 50 range when I encounter a massive zerg fight but that's acceptable. Not everyone shares this issue.

Is that true? What about for us on xbox? because zergs break the game here. And im sure its not different on ps4.. Wheres the excuse then? Also go check out some threads on here because there are tons of pc players who are having issues with lag. for years now.

Abysswarrior45

If zergs weren't 100% full of tanks and there were more counters to them outside of destro trains and bomb builds such as coordinated ult dumps with ults stam chars use then may wouldn't have an issue. Also the biggest reason is the lag they cause and the fact 70 people will chase 1 guy across the map for that minuscule amount of AP.

rustic_potato

The ones who complain about zerging are the ones who expect a fair XvX fight. It is a MMO and numerical advantage is a huge factor in PVP. Honestly utilizing every possible advantage to ensure victory is how the game should be played. If a individual or a group loses due to numerical advantage it just means that the losing group was not prepared to take the fight. They blame their ineptitude on their opponents.

When my guild starts their raids we assign one or two raid leaders to gather up PUGS and have them serve as distractions or meat shields for our main core group. In certain cases they just serve as warm bodies dropping ults to overwhelm certain small organized groups. Win win for my side and we don't care about what other players or opposing factions think about our playstyle.

newtinmpls

DKsUnite wrote: »

It destroys the server and causes unplayable fps and lag. I'm sure pepole wouldn't care if that was alleviated. For instance, CU is promising 1000s of people on screen with little performance drops and I'm excited for that. Here, 25 people on screen and everything stops working. Hence why people hate it

Heck, after recent updates I have lag with 4 other people on-screen. And my ridiculously high-end gaming computer was built for this sort of thing.

No other game I play lags like this one.

rustic_potato

newtinmpls wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

It destroys the server and causes unplayable fps and lag. I'm sure pepole wouldn't care if that was alleviated. For instance, CU is promising 1000s of people on screen with little performance drops and I'm excited for that. Here, 25 people on screen and everything stops working. Hence why people hate it

Heck, after recent updates I have lag with 4 other people on-screen. And my ridiculously high-end gaming computer was built for this sort of thing.

No other game I play lags like this one.

Yeah ZOS just doesn't know how to solve the lag problem without offloading processing to client side and enabling cheating.

eso_lags

newtinmpls wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

It destroys the server and causes unplayable fps and lag. I'm sure pepole wouldn't care if that was alleviated. For instance, CU is promising 1000s of people on screen with little performance drops and I'm excited for that. Here, 25 people on screen and everything stops working. Hence why people hate it

Heck, after recent updates I have lag with 4 other people on-screen. And my ridiculously high-end gaming computer was built for this sort of thing.

No other game I play lags like this one.

None. I play Gw2, Archeage, BDO, WOW, and others. Literally NOTHING lags like eso. I've actually never seen anything like it. And i play on PC and xbox.

Vermintide

It's because people don't think they died fairly when they get killed by 24+ players trampling them. They think those players are noobs because they didn't 1V1 ME BRO. Zerg, as a word, is short-hand for "Those players who obviously aren't as skilled as me but won through cheap tactics."

But of course, this is war. Complaining about zerging is pretty much the same thing as complaining about stealth, or healers, or kiting. All valid tactics which people will claim to be "cheap" when on the receiving end.

VaranisArano

That the servers can't always handle zergs and faction stacks isn't really the fault of the zerg and faction stack, but it certainly explains some of the frustration with zergs and faction stacks.

Now, if ZOS could upgrade their hardware so we could actually have large scale combat with multiple groups of 8 to 24 players, I suspect it would be less frustrating dealing with zergs and faction stacks. Its one thing to get mowed down by a mob of opposing players. Its quite another thing to get mowed down while your skills don't work due to lag.

magictucktuck

Because a lot of people play games for a “competitive feeling” even if the game isn’t designed for it people like to show their skill. And trampling over a small amount of people with a large amount of people doesn’t require skill.

Neither way is right or wrong we all pay to play. But usually everyone has a way they want to play and gets frustrated when they can’t play that way even if it stops others from wanting to play their way.

rustic_potato

VaranisArano wrote: »

That the servers can't always handle zergs and faction stacks isn't really the fault of the zerg and faction stack, but it certainly explains some of the frustration with zergs and faction stacks.

Now, if ZOS could upgrade their hardware so we could actually have large scale combat with multiple groups of 8 to 24 players, I suspect it would be less frustrating dealing with zergs and faction stacks. Its one thing to get mowed down by a mob of opposing players. Its quite another thing to get mowed down while your skills don't work due to lag.

Yeah the upgrading hardware part is not gonna happen. It requires too much of an investment for too little gain. People are going to keep playing even with the lag.

disintegr8

Zerging is a part of the game, otherwise we wouldn't be allowed to have groups of 24 players.The only issue with zerging for me is the performance aspect, lag, DC's and freezing. Because not all players are affected equally, it can severely disadvantage some people, making Cyrodiil no fun at all.

If there are anymore than 20-30 players at a keep my friend will always get lag, usually DC'd, and I will suffer lag to some extent and occasionally get DC'd. My friend has to go and find a place to wait out the fight, rather than participate, if he wants to get any AP out of the fight.

Fighting a zerg, or being in a zerg, can be fun, and I think is what Cyrodiil is all about, but while we do not all have the same internet, the same ping and the same server response times, Cyrodiil can be a very uneven playing field.

TequilaFire

Daimmyo wrote: »

Yeah, 30 characters hitting the keyboard hard against 2 characters of opposite faction is for sure hard and challenging task.

Yeah those 2 characters that were standing outside the keep taunting the zerg to come out.

Tannus15

Zergs are awesome and one of the best parts of Cyro play.

they are like an unstoppable world boss which sweeps across the grassy planes, decimating everything in their path until they run into another zerg and then the ground is littered with corpses.

So many times I've been in cyro doing my thing with a small group of friends, taking a resource here, a small group there, then suddenly, the zerg arrives and it's time to run.

Hurtfan

VaranisArano wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Before I start, I define a Zerg as one or more organized raids +PUGs. Furthermore, Cyrodiil was designed for groups of 8 to 24 players fighting in large scale combat.

That being said, common reasons for,disliking zergs are:
1. Numerical supriority is all well and good, but at a certain point you start to feel like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae.
2. Safety in numbers means that zergs attract players with less skill at PVP, which means that zergs get a reputation for skillless play.
3. Zergs are less organized and thus less effective than organized groups, meaning they do with weight of numbers what organized groups do with tactics.

I don't actually hold those complaints myself because when I was new to PVP, zerging and safety in numbers was an important stepping stone to learning how to PVP with an organized raid, and eventually solo and small group play. Cyrodiil is a big place and its hard for a brand new player to be effective without joining up with a group, which often means joining up or following the zerg. I learned a lot from merging in those early days and it gave me a good experience that made me want to become a better PVP player.

Regardless of whatever reputation you think a zerg is getting whether it be "skilless play" or "intelligently overcoming their enemy" the goal is to win. Despite your reservations about someones ability to play the game, if they are winning none of that matters.

To be entirely clear, I don't think zerging is skillless play, but it is certainly something I've heard players say about zerging.

I agree, and don't think it's just mind-numbing killing. You still have to strategize even when zerging.

jaye63

My understanding of the definition of zerging in ESO PvP is - a swarm with no skill that results in a lag by button mashing, unskilled players.

The lack of skill makes it boring and the lag makes it unplayable. At least that's my understanding from listening to people who do PvP and are in the discord channel Im in.

Knowledge

jaye63 wrote: »

My understanding of the definition of zerging in ESO PvP is - a swarm with no skill that results in a lag by button mashing, unskilled players.

The lack of skill makes it boring and the lag makes it unplayable. At least that's my understanding from listening to people who do PvP and are in the discord channel Im in.

At the same time my understanding of skill in this game is to run a meta build you farm vDSA or vMA to complete with weapons and gear and then increase all the gear to legendary whilst finding "under geared" players to beat up in Cyrodil and frown upon them if they have any friends assist them.

The idea that this game requires a lot of "skill" and isn't largely based on dice rolls for hit and crit variables is a joke.

Mazbt

Some people just get salty that open world pvp doesn't always work out for them. getting zerged down sucks but it happens...part of the territory.