Zaan Is Fine; Easy to Counter

ZOS_GregoryV · March 2018

Greetings all,

After removing a few posts, we must remind everyone to keep posts civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

SquareSausage · March 2018

There are *** stamina builds running this set now, it hit my heavy armour dk for 15k from a stamnb untop of whatever damage they are also doing. Most clases can do one of stun, root, snare, gapclose, ultidrop ontop of zaan. insta dead.

Karmanorway · March 2018

Zaan is not too op (except in No cp BGs) major defile + bleed builds on the other hand is the real cancer

Ch4mpTW · March 2018

Karmanorway wrote: »

Zaan is not too op (except in No cp BGs) major defile + bleed builds on the other hand is the real cancer

Lol! That’s what myself and @Sixty5 have been saying for a while now. And in numerous threads too. A lot of the spotlight is on Zaan, which unfortunately is taking the attention away from a very dangerous build plaguing: Battlegrounds, Cyrodiil, and duels alike.

WakeYourGhost · March 2018

Zaan isn't fine... It's Hot!

...I know that doesn't Help anything, I just couldn't get it outta my head.

CyrusArya · March 2018

I don’t care how easy it is to counter. I don’t have a problem with ppl running powerful builds or sets. I have a problem with hypocrisy on principle. Specifically how proc sets are deemed such evil when it’s stam builds running em, but It’s totally ok for magicka builds to run em. Many of the same ppl that cried non stop about viper or Red Mtn or selenes will gladly defend skoria or Zaan.

Abysswarrior45 · March 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

I don’t care how easy it is to counter. I don’t have a problem with ppl running powerful builds or sets. I have a problem with hypocrisy on principle. Specifically how proc sets are deemed such evil when it’s stam builds running em, but It’s totally ok for magicka builds to run em. Many of the same ppl that cried non stop about viper or Red Mtn or selenes will gladly defend skoria or Zaan.

This ^^^

Abysswarrior45 · March 2018

Sixty5 wrote: »

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

2 are without cp in the red tree, BUT with an actual build and the 30k one is with an actual build and cp in the red tree. No monster set should do that

Zaan at base deals 6 ticks of damage, if you are taking 8 ticks of damage, then the person who killed you is running Elf Bane, and you have stood still for 7 whole seconds and eaten the entire proc.

Or I was rolling away and they knew how to close the distance.

Sixty5 · March 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

I don’t care how easy it is to counter. I don’t have a problem with ppl running powerful builds or sets. I have a problem with hypocrisy on principle. Specifically how proc sets are deemed such evil when it’s stam builds running em, but It’s totally ok for magicka builds to run em. Many of the same ppl that cried non stop about viper or Red Mtn or selenes will gladly defend skoria or Zaan.

Selene and Velidreth are fine at the moment, as is Zaan.

On the other hand the old Viper and Red Mountain were problematic due to how they applied their damage instantly, without any real agency for the player they were used on.

Those sets did not create any change in gameplay, and were more or less just free damage

ak_pvp · March 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

I don’t care how easy it is to counter. I don’t have a problem with ppl running powerful builds or sets. I have a problem with hypocrisy on principle. Specifically how proc sets are deemed such evil when it’s stam builds running em, but It’s totally ok for magicka builds to run em. Many of the same ppl that cried non stop about viper or Red Mtn or selenes will gladly defend skoria or Zaan.

Its not the problem with stam running them. It was the problem with uncounterable instant damage. Which is gone. Red mountain is quite comparable to the current caluurion set, in that its a projectile with a telegraph. (RM is a bit weaker due to RNG.)

Koensol · March 2018

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.

3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.

Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.

Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.

What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.

At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.

I like how your scenario involves a zaan user that does nothing at all other than proc it. Such a realistic image you are portraying. GL healing through that *** when you are feared and incapped and have to deal with major defile + 20% more damage received among other debuffs and dots. Which isn't at all hard to do for mag/stamblades. This set is just pure cheese. I don't see why people feel the need to even defend it. I mean do you really need this much damage from a 2 piece in order to kill someone?

In the time it takes for a Zaan proc to finish, a person can get off a full combo. Given that Reverb, heavy attack, dawnbreaker, reverse slice is already going to kill someone, the damage from Zaan becomes redundant there, and you could replace it with literally any other monster set in the game and have nothing change.

On the other hand, if the person is entirely focused on locking you down and staying on top of you with their build, then they deal pretty much no damage without Zaan, and thus cannot fight multiple opponents or have have a chance at getting a kill combo more than once every 18 seconds.

It's one of the first thing that I found when I tried the set out. Zaan doesn't get you very many kills. Over 10 battlegrounds matches with the set, I think there were two or three instances where I killed someone I otherwise wouldn't have because of a Zaan proc. Blood Spawn or Troll King would have been far more useful. Even Selenes or Velidreth probably would have netted me more kills.

Again you are describing a scenario where the zaan user isn't dynamic. He isn't just gonna let you hammer him with full combo's. Besides, its more than likely you will not even have time to do such a combo because the zaan proc forces you to be on the defensive or you will be trying to get away from the zaan user in order to break the chain. Not to mention gap closer, root and snare spam, which are all very prevalent in for example BG's, will prevent you to counter it like that. Not all fights are 1v1. This set just offers way too much bang for your buck. You not getting the kills is more a case of bad luck than the set not lethal. If it procs at the right time and you cc and ult at the same time, its R.I.P.

But that holds true with any damage based proc set. Selene is a perfect example of this, or Velidreth. And need I get into detail about Nightblades who abuse this?

You all crack me up. Seriously. It’s totally okay for Nightblades to run around melting people in fractions of a second, leaving to no room for counter play in the slightest from the amount of obnoxiously high burst you’re hit with. But, Zaan is something with a myriad of counters and checks, and suddenly it’s the most unhealthy thing in ESO’s PvP to date. Just listen to yourselves. You find Zaan wrong, but find: Velidreth, Selene, Earthgore, Troll King, etc. right. You find Zaan to do too much damage, but not these Master Axe bleed builds annihilating people okay. You guys are definitely an odd bunch.

I am not coming at this from a perspective of nightblade. I know I can easily counter zaan on my nb, but other classes don't have it as easy. Let's not make this discussion about nightblades.

Also I love how you act like you know my entire opinion. If you actually knew me, you'd know I despise damage proc sets and think them to be among the dumbest and boring things in this game. Earthgore and troll king too are both arguably too strong as well. Comparing selene and velidreth to zaan is not a reasonable comparison. Both can be very easily avoided, especially selene. With selene you even have enough time to break free and dodge. Zaan however is a lot more taxing on the victim.

But no matter. I will not change your mind on this anyway. Have fun with the zaan cheese until it eventually gets nerfed. Looking forward to the tears that will inevitably emerge.

Koensol · March 2018

Sixty5 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.

3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.

Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.

Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.

What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.

At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.

I like how your scenario involves a zaan user that does nothing at all other than proc it. Such a realistic image you are portraying. GL healing through that *** when you are feared and incapped and have to deal with major defile + 20% more damage received among other debuffs and dots. Which isn't at all hard to do for mag/stamblades. This set is just pure cheese. I don't see why people feel the need to even defend it. I mean do you really need this much damage from a 2 piece in order to kill someone?

In the time it takes for a Zaan proc to finish, a person can get off a full combo. Given that Reverb, heavy attack, dawnbreaker, reverse slice is already going to kill someone, the damage from Zaan becomes redundant there, and you could replace it with literally any other monster set in the game and have nothing change.

On the other hand, if the person is entirely focused on locking you down and staying on top of you with their build, then they deal pretty much no damage without Zaan, and thus cannot fight multiple opponents or have have a chance at getting a kill combo more than once every 18 seconds.

It's one of the first thing that I found when I tried the set out. Zaan doesn't get you very many kills. Over 10 battlegrounds matches with the set, I think there were two or three instances where I killed someone I otherwise wouldn't have because of a Zaan proc. Blood Spawn or Troll King would have been far more useful. Even Selenes or Velidreth probably would have netted me more kills.

Again you are describing a scenario where the zaan user isn't dynamic. He isn't just gonna let you hammer him with full combo's. Besides, its more than likely you will not even have time to do such a combo because the zaan proc forces you to be on the defensive or you will be trying to get away from the zaan user in order to break the chain. Not to mention gap closer, root and snare spam, which are all very prevalent in for example BG's, will prevent you to counter it like that. Not all fights are 1v1. This set just offers way too much bang for your buck. You not getting the kills is more a case of bad luck than the set not lethal. If it procs at the right time and you cc and ult at the same time, its R.I.P.

1v1 is literally the best case for Zaan. If a Zaan user is outnumbered then his big damage dealer is on a long cooldown, can't hit multiple people, and requires complete focus fire.
If the person facing a Zaan user is outnumbered, then they would be at a disadvantage anyway, and the outcome matters more about how well they can kite out their opponents, which, what do you know, is Zaans biggest weakness.

In chaotic fights with equal numbers, Zaan is pretty much useless. It becomes increasingly difficult to actually stick on an opponent to get the full value of the proc.

My experience with Zaan tended to be that it would proc off the single heavy I'd do while turtling waiting for an ult resulting in the proc being wasted.
Any procs during a kill combo felt like nothing, simply because I'd have enough damage to secure the kill anyway.

In a brawl where you are fishing for a combo is about the only time the set can do something interesting. But the issue here is any time you get a proc vs a competent player, they go defensive or break the tether, resetting the fight. Vs a trash player who sits there and eats the beam, sure you'll pick up an easy kill. But then again, trash players are pretty much always easy kills.

Zaan only becomes a strong tool once you start to build around it, sacrificing your own damage for sticking power via gear or abilities, and in that case you will very rarely get kills without it.

I agree 1v1 is where the set is strong, but like I said there is 2 sides of the coin. In BG's zaan can give so much extra pressure on an individual of the opposing team, that already has to deal with snare, root and defile spam. It doesn't become as easy to counter in these situations. This set can and will secure kills on experienced players or at least push them ln the defensive completely, where it normally wouldn't happen. A 2 piece set should not be this strong.

As for the bolded, that is something I can definately agree with. Proc sets are overkill on any build that can already do good damage, although that doesn't change a thing about how strong they are. What these sets do however, is making tanky/debuff based builds that much more powerfull and threatening. This isn't healthy for the game's balance at all. I think we can all remember the no CP days where every single heavy armor SnB build abused viper and tremorscale. Do we really want to go back to that meta?

Ch4mpTW · March 2018

Koensol wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.

3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.

Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.

Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.

What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.

At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.

I like how your scenario involves a zaan user that does nothing at all other than proc it. Such a realistic image you are portraying. GL healing through that *** when you are feared and incapped and have to deal with major defile + 20% more damage received among other debuffs and dots. Which isn't at all hard to do for mag/stamblades. This set is just pure cheese. I don't see why people feel the need to even defend it. I mean do you really need this much damage from a 2 piece in order to kill someone?

In the time it takes for a Zaan proc to finish, a person can get off a full combo. Given that Reverb, heavy attack, dawnbreaker, reverse slice is already going to kill someone, the damage from Zaan becomes redundant there, and you could replace it with literally any other monster set in the game and have nothing change.

On the other hand, if the person is entirely focused on locking you down and staying on top of you with their build, then they deal pretty much no damage without Zaan, and thus cannot fight multiple opponents or have have a chance at getting a kill combo more than once every 18 seconds.

It's one of the first thing that I found when I tried the set out. Zaan doesn't get you very many kills. Over 10 battlegrounds matches with the set, I think there were two or three instances where I killed someone I otherwise wouldn't have because of a Zaan proc. Blood Spawn or Troll King would have been far more useful. Even Selenes or Velidreth probably would have netted me more kills.

Again you are describing a scenario where the zaan user isn't dynamic. He isn't just gonna let you hammer him with full combo's. Besides, its more than likely you will not even have time to do such a combo because the zaan proc forces you to be on the defensive or you will be trying to get away from the zaan user in order to break the chain. Not to mention gap closer, root and snare spam, which are all very prevalent in for example BG's, will prevent you to counter it like that. Not all fights are 1v1. This set just offers way too much bang for your buck. You not getting the kills is more a case of bad luck than the set not lethal. If it procs at the right time and you cc and ult at the same time, its R.I.P.

But that holds true with any damage based proc set. Selene is a perfect example of this, or Velidreth. And need I get into detail about Nightblades who abuse this?

You all crack me up. Seriously. It’s totally okay for Nightblades to run around melting people in fractions of a second, leaving to no room for counter play in the slightest from the amount of obnoxiously high burst you’re hit with. But, Zaan is something with a myriad of counters and checks, and suddenly it’s the most unhealthy thing in ESO’s PvP to date. Just listen to yourselves. You find Zaan wrong, but find: Velidreth, Selene, Earthgore, Troll King, etc. right. You find Zaan to do too much damage, but not these Master Axe bleed builds annihilating people okay. You guys are definitely an odd bunch.

I am not coming at this from a perspective of nightblade. I know I can easily counter zaan on my nb, but other classes don't have it as easy. Let's not make this discussion about nightblades.

Also I love how you act like you know my entire opinion. If you actually knew me, you'd know I despise damage proc sets and think them to be among the dumbest and boring things in this game. Earthgore and troll king too are both arguably too strong as well. Comparing selene and velidreth to zaan is not a reasonable comparison. Both can be very easily avoided, especially selene. With selene you even have enough time to break free and dodge. Zaan however is a lot more taxing on the victim.

But no matter. I will not change your mind on this anyway. Have fun with the zaan cheese until it eventually gets nerfed. Looking forward to the tears that will inevitably emerge.

Enjoy the Zaan cheese how? Or was that statement not addressed to me? I tested it out for a few days, and said that without a doubt I would not be replacing neither Blood Spawn, Grothdarr, or Valkyn Skoria for it. It’s far too outclassed by those sets, in open world PvP. Especially when going about things solo (as I am in most situations).

Qbiken · March 2018

The most realistic change (suggestions like removing X sets or whatever isn´t going to happen anytime soon so might as well suggest logical solutions):

* Reduce the range to 8 meters (to make it in line with a lot of melee skills like Sweeps and Lava Whip)
* Increase the duration to 9 seconds, but lower the increasing damage to 25%/tick instead of the current 50%/tick
* Fix the line of sight bug

This way we´ve a set that has less burst-potential in PvP (where burst in general is more important), and more useful for PvE where sustained/prolonged damage is more important.

Mayrael · March 2018

CyrusArya wrote: »

I don’t care how easy it is to counter. I don’t have a problem with ppl running powerful builds or sets. I have a problem with hypocrisy on principle. Specifically how proc sets are deemed such evil when it’s stam builds running em, but It’s totally ok for magicka builds to run em. Many of the same ppl that cried non stop about viper or Red Mtn or selenes will gladly defend skoria or Zaan.

Yeah, I don't like it to. Though I play clases that can easly counter or use Zaan (magsorc, stam&magblade, magplar) I don't like situation where set proc can kill player on its own even when its unlikely to happend. One thing that bugs me is DKs and Warden situation that are left with no easy counters (by easy I mean skills used by this classes anyway like streak on sorc, cloak on nb, ritual on templar).

Sixty5 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.

3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.

Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.

Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.

What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.

At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.

I like how your scenario involves a zaan user that does nothing at all other than proc it. Such a realistic image you are portraying. GL healing through that *** when you are feared and incapped and have to deal with major defile + 20% more damage received among other debuffs and dots. Which isn't at all hard to do for mag/stamblades. This set is just pure cheese. I don't see why people feel the need to even defend it. I mean do you really need this much damage from a 2 piece in order to kill someone?

In the time it takes for a Zaan proc to finish, a person can get off a full combo. Given that Reverb, heavy attack, dawnbreaker, reverse slice is already going to kill someone, the damage from Zaan becomes redundant there, and you could replace it with literally any other monster set in the game and have nothing change.

On the other hand, if the person is entirely focused on locking you down and staying on top of you with their build, then they deal pretty much no damage without Zaan, and thus cannot fight multiple opponents or have have a chance at getting a kill combo more than once every 18 seconds.

It's one of the first thing that I found when I tried the set out. Zaan doesn't get you very many kills. Over 10 battlegrounds matches with the set, I think there were two or three instances where I killed someone I otherwise wouldn't have because of a Zaan proc. Blood Spawn or Troll King would have been far more useful. Even Selenes or Velidreth probably would have netted me more kills.

Again you are describing a scenario where the zaan user isn't dynamic. He isn't just gonna let you hammer him with full combo's. Besides, its more than likely you will not even have time to do such a combo because the zaan proc forces you to be on the defensive or you will be trying to get away from the zaan user in order to break the chain. Not to mention gap closer, root and snare spam, which are all very prevalent in for example BG's, will prevent you to counter it like that. Not all fights are 1v1. This set just offers way too much bang for your buck. You not getting the kills is more a case of bad luck than the set not lethal. If it procs at the right time and you cc and ult at the same time, its R.I.P.

1v1 is literally the best case for Zaan. If a Zaan user is outnumbered then his big damage dealer is on a long cooldown, can't hit multiple people, and requires complete focus fire.
If the person facing a Zaan user is outnumbered, then they would be at a disadvantage anyway, and the outcome matters more about how well they can kite out their opponents, which, what do you know, is Zaans biggest weakness.

In chaotic fights with equal numbers, Zaan is pretty much useless. It becomes increasingly difficult to actually stick on an opponent to get the full value of the proc.

My experience with Zaan tended to be that it would proc off the single heavy I'd do while turtling waiting for an ult resulting in the proc being wasted.
Any procs during a kill combo felt like nothing, simply because I'd have enough damage to secure the kill anyway.

In a brawl where you are fishing for a combo is about the only time the set can do something interesting. But the issue here is any time you get a proc vs a competent player, they go defensive or break the tether, resetting the fight. Vs a trash player who sits there and eats the beam, sure you'll pick up an easy kill. But then again, trash players are pretty much always easy kills.

Zaan only becomes a strong tool once you start to build around it, sacrificing your own damage for sticking power via gear or abilities, and in that case you will very rarely get kills without it.

... so because its not as useful in 1vX situations we will leave it broken for 1v1? In Chaotic situations you can die from random lethal arrow yes, but still set that deals such enormous damage in such short time shouldn't exist, its not balanced in comparision to other sets at all. Leave total damage amount as it is but double the channel time, don't change CD and we will be ok. It will still provide increase in overall damage but will be easier to handle.

Claiming that Zaan becoms strong tool once you start to build around it, sacrificing your own damage[...] is flase. Did you have seen Elf Bane set stats?

(2 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) Increases the duration of your Flame Damage abilities by 2 seconds.

Yeah... This set really weakens damage as hell... LOL. Only flaw of it is that its heavy, but it can be bypassed easly.

Once again. I don't have any business in nerfing this set as I play clases that can counter it easly, but its bad design. Just the fact of existing this and many other threads means something is not ok with that set, why there is no threads like this with selenes or infernal guardian?

pieratsos · March 2018

Sixty5 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

I don’t care how easy it is to counter. I don’t have a problem with ppl running powerful builds or sets. I have a problem with hypocrisy on principle. Specifically how proc sets are deemed such evil when it’s stam builds running em, but It’s totally ok for magicka builds to run em. Many of the same ppl that cried non stop about viper or Red Mtn or selenes will gladly defend skoria or Zaan.

Selene and Velidreth are fine at the moment, as is Zaan.

On the other hand the old Viper and Red Mountain were problematic due to how they applied their damage instantly, without any real agency for the player they were used on.

Those sets did not create any change in gameplay, and were more or less just free damage

When Zaan procs u will take at least a couple of ticks before you break it and thats for classes that can actually break it. There are other classes that cant break it that easy. And thats assuming you are not snared, rooted or the Zaan user will not chase you.

Funny thing is that those couple of ticks u take before u "easily" break the beam will do more dmg than the old viper.

Buffler · March 2018

It is total cheese, so much so i wont wear it now. It was easy mode as a magplar just wait for zaan to proc, meteor then toppling charge....add the purifying light burst and nothing gets away. Its ridiculous. Easy mode.

ak_pvp · March 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

I don’t care how easy it is to counter. I don’t have a problem with ppl running powerful builds or sets. I have a problem with hypocrisy on principle. Specifically how proc sets are deemed such evil when it’s stam builds running em, but It’s totally ok for magicka builds to run em. Many of the same ppl that cried non stop about viper or Red Mtn or selenes will gladly defend skoria or Zaan.

Selene and Velidreth are fine at the moment, as is Zaan.

On the other hand the old Viper and Red Mountain were problematic due to how they applied their damage instantly, without any real agency for the player they were used on.

Those sets did not create any change in gameplay, and were more or less just free damage

When Zaan procs u will take at least a couple of ticks before you break it and thats for classes that can actually break it. There are other classes that cant break it that easy. And thats assuming you are not snared, rooted or the Zaan user will not chase you.

Funny thing is that those couple of ticks u take before u "easily" break the beam will do more dmg than the old viper.

Two ticks deals about 3k to me in noCP. About the same as viper. Then slap a 18cd on it.

The one place I have come across that I can't react straight away when Zaan'd is when being feared, because of fears dodgy 2 step animation, before you can break free.

Also. Monster slot. You sacrifice quite a bit for zaan

pieratsos · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

I don’t care how easy it is to counter. I don’t have a problem with ppl running powerful builds or sets. I have a problem with hypocrisy on principle. Specifically how proc sets are deemed such evil when it’s stam builds running em, but It’s totally ok for magicka builds to run em. Many of the same ppl that cried non stop about viper or Red Mtn or selenes will gladly defend skoria or Zaan.

Selene and Velidreth are fine at the moment, as is Zaan.

On the other hand the old Viper and Red Mountain were problematic due to how they applied their damage instantly, without any real agency for the player they were used on.

Those sets did not create any change in gameplay, and were more or less just free damage

When Zaan procs u will take at least a couple of ticks before you break it and thats for classes that can actually break it. There are other classes that cant break it that easy. And thats assuming you are not snared, rooted or the Zaan user will not chase you.

Funny thing is that those couple of ticks u take before u "easily" break the beam will do more dmg than the old viper.

Two ticks deals about 3k to me in noCP. About the same as viper. Then slap a 18cd on it.

The one place I have come across that I can't react straight away when Zaan'd is when being feared, because of fears dodgy 2 step animation, before you can break free.

Do you actually listen to what you are saying? Cause it seems like you dont.

In one of the best case scenarios you take as much dmg as viper. Viper was OP, Zaan is balanced. Wut?

Now its the cd of viper that was the issue and not that it was doing free dmg? Are you seriously telling me that the issue with procs is their cd and not what they actually do? So earthgore is balanced according to you cause it has a 35sec cd.

And 18sec cd? You do realise that you are talking about best case scenario right? 2 ticks are not the potential dmg of the set. You take 1 more tick and now you have 2 viper procs. Take the full dmg and you have 5+ viper procs.

You keep mentioning tho things like "these classes dont have easy counterplay" or "the one place i cant react straight away" and yet you keep considering the set balanced. You are literally explaining cases where the set is OP and you conclude that the set is balanced. So again, according to you earthgore is balanced because its not OP in every possible scenario.

Putting on a 2 piece set, you sacrifice a lot but putting on a 5 piece set you dont sacrifice anything? Ok, makes sense.

Lexxypwns · March 2018

Idk how any 30k+ damage recap is being defended in here.

ak_pvp · March 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

I don’t care how easy it is to counter. I don’t have a problem with ppl running powerful builds or sets. I have a problem with hypocrisy on principle. Specifically how proc sets are deemed such evil when it’s stam builds running em, but It’s totally ok for magicka builds to run em. Many of the same ppl that cried non stop about viper or Red Mtn or selenes will gladly defend skoria or Zaan.

Selene and Velidreth are fine at the moment, as is Zaan.

On the other hand the old Viper and Red Mountain were problematic due to how they applied their damage instantly, without any real agency for the player they were used on.

Those sets did not create any change in gameplay, and were more or less just free damage

When Zaan procs u will take at least a couple of ticks before you break it and thats for classes that can actually break it. There are other classes that cant break it that easy. And thats assuming you are not snared, rooted or the Zaan user will not chase you.

Funny thing is that those couple of ticks u take before u "easily" break the beam will do more dmg than the old viper.

Two ticks deals about 3k to me in noCP. About the same as viper. Then slap a 18cd on it.

The one place I have come across that I can't react straight away when Zaan'd is when being feared, because of fears dodgy 2 step animation, before you can break free.

Do you actually listen to what you are saying? Cause it seems like you dont.

In one of the best case scenarios you take as much dmg as viper. Viper was OP, Zaan is balanced. Wut?

Now its the cd of viper that was the issue and not that it was doing free dmg? Are you seriously telling me that the issue with procs is their cd and not what they actually do? So earthgore is balanced according to you cause it has a 35sec cd.

And 18sec cd? You do realise that you are talking about best case scenario right? 2 ticks are not the potential dmg of the set. You take 1 more tick and now you have 2 viper procs. Take the full dmg and you have 5+ viper procs.

You keep mentioning tho things like "these classes dont have easy counterplay" or "the one place i cant react straight away" and yet you keep considering the set balanced. You are literally explaining cases where the set is OP and you conclude that the set is balanced. So again, according to you earthgore is balanced because its not OP in every possible scenario.

Putting on a 2 piece set, you sacrifice a lot but putting on a 5 piece set you dont sacrifice anything? Ok, makes sense.

I am going to take a second to laugh at bolded. Not even best case. Best case would be that since its a rng proc I see it and purge, cloak, streak. mist etc. And yeah, 4k damage, tragic. But saying its the same as viper isn't true. You even go on to say how it isn't.

Earthgore is unbalanced in nearly every scenario, not just because of the big heal, because for the final time. It has no counters. If I could interrupt earthgore, It'd be balanced. You take one point and beat it to death jesus christ.

TL;DR: Viper to Zaan are so apples to oranges in many ways. Counters+Limits (Slots, High CD, ST, etc) = balance. Viper had low limits, (4s, melee damage, 5pc so can be 1 bar, and used with other sets) and low counters, as such it was OP.

Explaination:

Zaans 2 ticks. Which I will only take fully when CCd. Deals the same as viper. Viper deals it instantly, without counter. (Other than don't get hit of course) Every 4s. Now, you must be smart enough to realize that is a massive difference. If you do somehow take the full 5s zaan proc. Then you are doing something wrong.* It may be 5 vipers, but it is like sitting and taking 2 snipes, (Less counters, and high near spammable damage, and a 41m range) and complaining, oh, why am I taking damage?

The monster slot deal is a large part too. For the most part 5pc sets in this game are honestly a bit dull, and can be worn in differing orientations. So when you get something that allows you change up your gameplay a lot then many people take it.
Monster sets have many unique effects at the cost of being a set two slots., they provide unique effects comparable to a 5pc set. Bloodspawn, valkyn, troll king, of course earthgore, are forgone for it.

If you want to say, oh, not every class has a counter, well then, change that. Don't nerf everything down to the lowest common denominator.

ak_pvp · March 2018

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Idk how any 30k+ damage recap is being defended in here.

2 well timed set up snipes are 30k. They are 41m and don't even have a cooldown. Not to mention buggy as hell. People see big bad scary numbers and cry. Its how it has always been.

Apache_Kid · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Idk how any 30k+ damage recap is being defended in here.

2 well timed set up snipes are 30k. They are 41m and don't even have a cooldown. Not to mention buggy as hell. People see big bad scary numbers and cry. Its how it has always been.

What kind of build are you running where you are getting hit by snipes for 15k? No impen? Also snipe has a cast-time which is essentially a CD.

ak_pvp · March 2018

Apache_Kid wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Idk how any 30k+ damage recap is being defended in here.

2 well timed set up snipes are 30k. They are 41m and don't even have a cooldown. Not to mention buggy as hell. People see big bad scary numbers and cry. Its how it has always been.

What kind of build are you running where you are getting hit by snipes for 15k? No impen? Also snipe has a cast-time which is essentially a CD.

Depends, empowered+cloaked in light armour can hit for 13-15k. The sound is bugged. And if you get Xv1'd and debuffed enough then even on heavy+impen I took a 12k shot.. Also If you get asylum bow'd it can be quite high, but that requires closer range.

The 1s cast time from stealth really isn't really enough to warrant calling it a CD. But I did mention in my other comment the damage is technically "near" spammable.

Apache_Kid · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Idk how any 30k+ damage recap is being defended in here.

2 well timed set up snipes are 30k. They are 41m and don't even have a cooldown. Not to mention buggy as hell. People see big bad scary numbers and cry. Its how it has always been.

What kind of build are you running where you are getting hit by snipes for 15k? No impen? Also snipe has a cast-time which is essentially a CD.

Depends, empowered+cloaked in light armour can hit for 13-15k. The sound is bugged. And if you get Xv1'd and debuffed enough then even on heavy+impen I took a 12k shot..

Also If you get asylum bow'd it can be quite high, but that requires closer range.

Maybe if someone is specifically building for a snipe build... I have never been that hard by it with a proper gear and cp set-up.

That being said anything can seem OP if you build around it. The question then becomes how much did you gimp yourself in other areas to become so strong with that one set, ability, or rotation.

It's not just about damage for Zaan. Think about the fact that a two-piece set allows you to completely control the melee range area of the fight every 18 seconds. Not only does it pour out huge damage but you can use it to dictate the fight by forcing your opponent to stop what they are doing and re-locate.

pieratsos · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

I don’t care how easy it is to counter. I don’t have a problem with ppl running powerful builds or sets. I have a problem with hypocrisy on principle. Specifically how proc sets are deemed such evil when it’s stam builds running em, but It’s totally ok for magicka builds to run em. Many of the same ppl that cried non stop about viper or Red Mtn or selenes will gladly defend skoria or Zaan.

Selene and Velidreth are fine at the moment, as is Zaan.

On the other hand the old Viper and Red Mountain were problematic due to how they applied their damage instantly, without any real agency for the player they were used on.

Those sets did not create any change in gameplay, and were more or less just free damage

When Zaan procs u will take at least a couple of ticks before you break it and thats for classes that can actually break it. There are other classes that cant break it that easy. And thats assuming you are not snared, rooted or the Zaan user will not chase you.

Funny thing is that those couple of ticks u take before u "easily" break the beam will do more dmg than the old viper.

Two ticks deals about 3k to me in noCP. About the same as viper. Then slap a 18cd on it.

The one place I have come across that I can't react straight away when Zaan'd is when being feared, because of fears dodgy 2 step animation, before you can break free.

Do you actually listen to what you are saying? Cause it seems like you dont.

In one of the best case scenarios you take as much dmg as viper. Viper was OP, Zaan is balanced. Wut?

Now its the cd of viper that was the issue and not that it was doing free dmg? Are you seriously telling me that the issue with procs is their cd and not what they actually do? So earthgore is balanced according to you cause it has a 35sec cd.

And 18sec cd? You do realise that you are talking about best case scenario right? 2 ticks are not the potential dmg of the set. You take 1 more tick and now you have 2 viper procs. Take the full dmg and you have 5+ viper procs.

You keep mentioning tho things like "these classes dont have easy counterplay" or "the one place i cant react straight away" and yet you keep considering the set balanced. You are literally explaining cases where the set is OP and you conclude that the set is balanced. So again, according to you earthgore is balanced because its not OP in every possible scenario.

Putting on a 2 piece set, you sacrifice a lot but putting on a 5 piece set you dont sacrifice anything? Ok, makes sense.

I am going to take a second to laugh at bolded. Not even best case. Best case would be that since its a rng proc I see it and purge, cloak, streak. mist etc. And yeah, 4k damage, tragic. But saying its the same as viper isn't true. You even go on to say how it isn't.

Earthgore is unbalanced in nearly every scenario, not just because of the big heal, because for the final time. It has no counters. If I could interrupt earthgore, It'd be balanced. You take one point and beat it to death jesus christ.

TL;DR: Viper to Zaan are so apples to oranges in many ways. Counters+Limits (Slots, High CD, ST, etc) = balance. Viper had low limits, (4s, melee damage, 5pc so can be 1 bar, and used with other sets) and low counters, as such it was OP.

Explaination:

Zaans 2 ticks. Which I will only take fully when CCd. Deals the same as viper. Viper deals it instantly, without counter. (Other than don't get hit of course) Every 4s. Now, you must be smart enough to realize that is a massive difference. If you do somehow take the full 5s zaan proc. Then you are doing something wrong.* It may be 5 vipers, but it is like sitting and taking 2 snipes, (Less counters, and high near spammable damage, and a 41m range) and complaining, oh, why am I taking damage?

The monster slot deal is a large part too. For the most part 5pc sets in this game are honestly a bit dull, and can be worn in differing orientations. So when you get something that allows you change up your gameplay a lot then many people take it.
Monster sets have many unique effects at the cost of being a set two slots., they provide unique effects comparable to a 5pc set. Bloodspawn, valkyn, troll king, of course earthgore, are forgone for it.

If you want to say, oh, not every class has a counter, well then, change that. Don't nerf everything down to the lowest common denominator.

Absolutely right. Dont nerf everything down to the lowest common denominator. Some classes should be just [snip] out of luck and take 30k dmg from a 2 piece set because thats how balance works. Tough luck mate but you need to L2P and reroll a different class untill you get buffed a year later. Only my class is allowed to ask for nerfs because i dont want to reroll.

Ye no point to go over it all again. You are cherry picking arguments to prove ur point. This thing is OP because of that but this one is not OP because of the same reason. And yes obviously Earthgore is very OP in a 1v1 and in 1vX. It has a whooping 8% uptime. And you dont sacrifice anything for it. Not like Zaan where you actually sacrifice a monster set.

Im laughing too tho. Cause defending potential 30k+ death recaps by a 2 piece set and saying you sacrifice a lot is just for laughs.

But its ok now i understand where you are coming from. The issue is that Zaan is not a 5 piece. Yeah ZOS, why u do this to me. Why do you make me sacrifice my procs with unique effects to use other procs. Its not fair. Make Zaan a 5 piece set, then buff flame blossom too so i can use all 3 of them and fulfill my dream of one shotting people with my proc skills. Stamina builds had their proc meta so a magicka proc meta would only make things balanced.

[Edited to remove profanity]

ak_pvp · March 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

I don’t care how easy it is to counter. I don’t have a problem with ppl running powerful builds or sets. I have a problem with hypocrisy on principle. Specifically how proc sets are deemed such evil when it’s stam builds running em, but It’s totally ok for magicka builds to run em. Many of the same ppl that cried non stop about viper or Red Mtn or selenes will gladly defend skoria or Zaan.

Selene and Velidreth are fine at the moment, as is Zaan.

On the other hand the old Viper and Red Mountain were problematic due to how they applied their damage instantly, without any real agency for the player they were used on.

Those sets did not create any change in gameplay, and were more or less just free damage

When Zaan procs u will take at least a couple of ticks before you break it and thats for classes that can actually break it. There are other classes that cant break it that easy. And thats assuming you are not snared, rooted or the Zaan user will not chase you.

Funny thing is that those couple of ticks u take before u "easily" break the beam will do more dmg than the old viper.

Two ticks deals about 3k to me in noCP. About the same as viper. Then slap a 18cd on it.

The one place I have come across that I can't react straight away when Zaan'd is when being feared, because of fears dodgy 2 step animation, before you can break free.

Do you actually listen to what you are saying? Cause it seems like you dont.

In one of the best case scenarios you take as much dmg as viper. Viper was OP, Zaan is balanced. Wut?

Now its the cd of viper that was the issue and not that it was doing free dmg? Are you seriously telling me that the issue with procs is their cd and not what they actually do? So earthgore is balanced according to you cause it has a 35sec cd.

And 18sec cd? You do realise that you are talking about best case scenario right? 2 ticks are not the potential dmg of the set. You take 1 more tick and now you have 2 viper procs. Take the full dmg and you have 5+ viper procs.

You keep mentioning tho things like "these classes dont have easy counterplay" or "the one place i cant react straight away" and yet you keep considering the set balanced. You are literally explaining cases where the set is OP and you conclude that the set is balanced. So again, according to you earthgore is balanced because its not OP in every possible scenario.

Putting on a 2 piece set, you sacrifice a lot but putting on a 5 piece set you dont sacrifice anything? Ok, makes sense.

I am going to take a second to laugh at bolded. Not even best case. Best case would be that since its a rng proc I see it and purge, cloak, streak. mist etc. And yeah, 4k damage, tragic. But saying its the same as viper isn't true. You even go on to say how it isn't.

Earthgore is unbalanced in nearly every scenario, not just because of the big heal, because for the final time. It has no counters. If I could interrupt earthgore, It'd be balanced. You take one point and beat it to death jesus christ.

TL;DR: Viper to Zaan are so apples to oranges in many ways. Counters+Limits (Slots, High CD, ST, etc) = balance. Viper had low limits, (4s, melee damage, 5pc so can be 1 bar, and used with other sets) and low counters, as such it was OP.

Explaination:

Zaans 2 ticks. Which I will only take fully when CCd. Deals the same as viper. Viper deals it instantly, without counter. (Other than don't get hit of course) Every 4s. Now, you must be smart enough to realize that is a massive difference. If you do somehow take the full 5s zaan proc. Then you are doing something wrong.* It may be 5 vipers, but it is like sitting and taking 2 snipes, (Less counters, and high near spammable damage, and a 41m range) and complaining, oh, why am I taking damage?

The monster slot deal is a large part too. For the most part 5pc sets in this game are honestly a bit dull, and can be worn in differing orientations. So when you get something that allows you change up your gameplay a lot then many people take it.
Monster sets have many unique effects at the cost of being a set two slots., they provide unique effects comparable to a 5pc set. Bloodspawn, valkyn, troll king, of course earthgore, are forgone for it.

If you want to say, oh, not every class has a counter, well then, change that. Don't nerf everything down to the lowest common denominator.

Ye no point to go over it all again. You are cherry picking arguments to prove ur point. This thing is OP because of that but this one is not OP because of the same reason. And yes obviously Earthgore is very OP in a 1v1 and in 1vX. It has a whooping 8% uptime. And you dont sacrifice anything for it. Not like Zaan where you actually sacrifice a monster set.

Im laughing too tho. Cause defending potential 30k+ death recaps by a 2 piece set and saying you sacrifice a lot is just for laughs.

But its ok now i understand where you are coming from. The issue is that Zaan is not a 5 piece. Yeah ZOS, why u do this to me. Why do you make me sacrifice my procs with unique effects to use other procs. Its not fair. Make Zaan a 5 piece set, then buff flame blossom too so i can use all 3 of them and fulfill my dream of one shotting people with my proc skills. Stamina builds had their proc meta so a magicka proc meta would only make things balanced.

8% up time, but a near total fight reset. Even in 1v1. A 1vX is a little different, but I have seen people use it on more slippery builds. Zaan is trash on a 1vX.

You seem to be angry now that I disproved you silly comparisons. I don't know who you are oneshotting with zaan. That 20% proc rate really kills me in one hit, wowee. If you do want a proc I think is imbalanced, look at caluurion. Melee magblade buffs and hits you with concealed, then harvest/incap (noCP) and caluurion hits you the next second for around 7k. Its pretty strong on my MDK too, but not my style.

Key word. Potential. If you l2p then the its a wasted set on the enemy.

Lexxypwns · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Idk how any 30k+ damage recap is being defended in here.

2 well timed set up snipes are 30k. They are 41m and don't even have a cooldown. Not to mention buggy as hell. People see big bad scary numbers and cry. Its how it has always been.

I play a light armor build with 0 defensive sets and I haven’t seen a snipe over 7k that wasn’t Asylum bow empowered.

leepalmer95 · March 2018

Lexxypwns wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Idk how any 30k+ damage recap is being defended in here.

2 well timed set up snipes are 30k. They are 41m and don't even have a cooldown. Not to mention buggy as hell. People see big bad scary numbers and cry. Its how it has always been.

I play a light armor build with 0 defensive sets and I haven’t seen a snipe over 7k that wasn’t Asylum bow empowered.

I've been hit for 7k+ loads of time on a heavy mag dk with like 26k armour and 2.2k crit resist.

Vahrokh · March 2018

Zaan has to be REALLY overpowered. It's a whole 8 hours I don't see a "NERF SORCS NAO!!11" thread.