ESO combat quality is FAR WORSE from its competitors?

Pr0Skygon · January 2018

Not far worse, but yeah, worse.

klowdy1 wrote: »

I like the combat, but I could do without the animation cancelling. I'm tired of games with this problem that just act like it's part of the combat system. This is never intended in any game, but people have adapted, and devs don't want the work.

Rolling to cancel some actions seems passable, but what we have in this game is not easy for new players to grasp, making random groups, such as cyrodil, worse for everyone. With our current system, there is a chance you will jump into a group with no concept or idea of animation cancelling, while the enemy has premade groups of people very skilled with it.

Some will say its part of the learning curve, but it was never intended. For reference, I am fairly good with animation cancelling. Not the best, but my dps is better than average, I would say.

To be honest, I think removing animation canceling now will actually cause more harm than good, since even our basic skill animation aren't even that good

fred.thomsonb16_ESO · January 2018

Totally.

Animation cancelling is endgame content much like it is in a lot of competitive games, it's only hard to learn with the default keybinds, some players do and kudos to them. If you are having a hard time get a mouse with buttons on it, using a gaming mouse even with 3 fingers on each hand and correctly bound keys you'll be able to cancel effectively.

Animus-ESO · January 2018

It's fine as it is, but I'd love to see some improvement.

Iccotak wrote: »

Do you want something more like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlRmU7yfW0I

God I forgot how awful skyrim combat looks

dsalter · January 2018

Not far worse, but yeah, worse.

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Well, we can always improve. ESO combat is the only reason I am still playing after 3 years. It is the most dynamic combat system of any non-shooter game I have ever played.

Few points:

1. Animation canceling and weaving are not the same thing, people, figure it out.
2. Animation canceling is the reason that ESO combat is good in the first place. It is what makes combat dynamic, giving you the ability to react to changing circumstances in real time. Never met a skilled player that was against it. Do with that what you will...

I agree, animation canceling might not be perfect (not even close) at this moment, but it sure is an interesting concept.

because they wont complain as it is a bias statement they think its good. think about it, good player? a bug that allows you to amp up damage higher than anyone who doesnt abuse it...
if theres one thing in gaming that is consistent its people who play the best find every loophole and exploit they can to stay at the top.

dsalter · January 2018

Not far worse, but yeah, worse.

fred.thomsonb16_ESO wrote: »

Animation cancelling is endgame content much like it is in a lot of competitive games, it's only hard to learn with the default keybinds, some players do and kudos to them. If you are having a hard time get a mouse with buttons on it, using a gaming mouse even with 3 fingers on each hand and correctly bound keys you'll be able to cancel effectively.

wut.

so your telling me to be skilled you have to buy a mouse with more buttons... so you can keybind more... with a game where you use WASD+1to6 skill buttons, right+left click, space and weaponswap(mines G)?
but learning to use a bug is... end game... especially if you have a better mouse to achieve this?
sounds like rigging macros to achieve a better game to me.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

Totally.

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Clearly you've never played Neverwinter Nights or Secret World .

I haven't actually, since the combat even looks boring, I'd doubt it even fun to play with.

Eh.

Secret world is basicly ESO, with the reboot, having reticle targeting, and better balance, and better build freedom.

LiquidPony · January 2018

Nope, not at all.

dsalter wrote: »

fred.thomsonb16_ESO wrote: »

Animation cancelling is endgame content much like it is in a lot of competitive games, it's only hard to learn with the default keybinds, some players do and kudos to them. If you are having a hard time get a mouse with buttons on it, using a gaming mouse even with 3 fingers on each hand and correctly bound keys you'll be able to cancel effectively.

wut.

so your telling me to be skilled you have to buy a mouse with more buttons... so you can keybind more... with a game where you use WASD+1to6 skill buttons, right+left click, space and weaponswap(mines G)?
but learning to use a bug is... end game... especially if you have a better mouse to achieve this?
sounds like rigging macros to achieve a better game to me.

Maybe I'm just a jerk, but anytime I see people complaining about "animation canceling" I can't help but think: git gud.

FYI: plenty of people animation cancel perfectly well on console with controllers. It isn't rocket surgery. You don't need some fancy gaming mouse and keyboard to do it. I play on PC like once every 3 months on PTS and I can animation cancel fine with a regular ol' mouse and keyboard.

Besides, IMO, animation canceling gives combat an interesting flow that I like, and in some ways makes sense in a "real world" kind of way. Light attack weaving (if you consider that "animation canceling") is like a boxer's jab. We obviously need to be able to cancel skills to put up a block or dodge-roll or bash. Perhaps, ideally, a cancelled animation would only do some fractional amount of potential damage proportional to the length of the animation, but that does seem fairly complicated.

Most of the "DAE hate animation canceling crowd" seem to be butthurt PvPers who can't wrap their heads around the fact that they're getting wrecked by better players using better builds.

Kode · January 2018

Animation canceling is bad. Lag is far worse.

I would enjoy the combat if it were responsive. There are literally times when there is nothing you can do because the game lags so hard that you cant break a stun before being swallowed by a zerg.

The other problem is that most combat isn't targeted and there are too many PBAoEs, including purge and heal... and all of the other AoE damage. Group combat has always been a stack of players running into a stack of players face rolling their keyboards. I would like to think that AoE caps will fix it, but it wont, it will probably make it worse.
More AoE should be conal and directional, shrink the radius a bit, and more ground targeted stuff.

Add AoE knockback to siege that ignores CC immunity. Talk about breaking up the zerg!

fred.thomsonb16_ESO · January 2018

Totally.

dsalter wrote: »

wut.

so your telling me to be skilled you have to buy a mouse with more buttons... so you can keybind more... with a game where you use WASD+1to6 skill buttons, right+left click, space and weaponswap(mines G)?
but learning to use a bug is... end game... especially if you have a better mouse to achieve this?
sounds like rigging macros to achieve a better game to me.

Seeing as you quoted me I'll respond, I bind 1-5 to mouse, weapon swap to Z, bash to scroll up and C, sheath to X, ult default to R. I like to use my thumb for a majority of abilities and happen to have a mouse with this functionality because it's a quality of life improvement and relatively cheap. Animation cancelling is common place in games, it's not a bug, just a logical step in the games mechanics. If you need more information on cancelling in eso look back to the thieves guild PTS patch notes and animation changes topic, Gina provides in depth information with diagrams and such. Macro's (aside from press/release, which should be in the options) do not work in an action/reaction environment with unpredictable latency, configure some, test it, complain about it.

Iccotak · January 2018

What makes it worse?
What would make it better?

Be specific

thedude33 · January 2018

Nope, not at all.

75% sided with the two positive choices.
18% sided with the two negative choices.

Me thinks the OP opinion doesn't line up with the overwhelming majority of the player base.

fred.thomsonb16_ESO · January 2018

Totally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu5nKhsIHmc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qd6Nn31FBo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWagbF19ZXM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLScNVdsGP0

This is about as specific as I'm going to get. These are all in the same genre, so are comparable competition from various release dates. ESO is great fun, don't get me wrong, but it is lacking.

thedude33 · January 2018

Nope, not at all.

lol as usual it all comes down to personal preference. Just watched your Blade Soul video= horrible. That's your 'proof' that ESO is lacking? Looks more like fight scenes from Mortal Combat on Nintendo 64. No thanks.

dday3six · January 2018

Totally.

I really liked ESO’s combat at console lanuch, but over time it has deteriorated for me. Having played FXIV:ARR on and off since launch and more recently the tech test for Tera on console. I believe ESO’s combat is lacking at present. Classes do not feel unique because of overlapping skill lines, and the reliance on one dimensional heavy attacks for resource management gets very boring.

Though admittedly the test was a bit laggy, with Tera for console the combo system was well done. Skills had cooldowns, but also fed into 2-4 skill combo chains. The combo chain would overlap button mapping so a skill triggered by L1 + O for example would continue to be executed by the same button sequence provided the next skill in the chain was not on CD.

The more thought I put into ESO’s combat, the more I wish ZOS had gone down a route which allows skills and even light/heavy attacks to combo sequence and empower one another.

ESO, especially at present, has a very rigid and static feel to combat.

FearlessOne_2014 · January 2018

It's fine as it is, but I'd love to see some improvement.

The only Fantasy MMORPG that I've played lately that I feel has a better combat system. Is by far Black Desert Online. Their system is so fluid and crisp, almost immaculate for a MMORPG.

Far as ESO's other competitors that I've played recently lets see.

- GW2 - Combat here is fluid, however because of the style of this game. I tries to have a traditional and action combat system in one. Which leads to loads of issues, from a balance and skill gap point. Also because GW2 combat system is the way that it is. Forget trying to win a outmanned battle. It's nearly immposible in that game. Not to mention that ANet had dumb down GW2's combat system so much to allow a monkey to be able to play it and feel like a world champ.

- TERA - Combat here is decent however, it is far clunkier then ESO's combat system. Not to mention the game engine makes the combat system lag soo much.

- BnS - The combat system here is pretty good. However compared to ESO, BnS's combat system also feel clunky AF. I'll give yall two classes Destroyer and Blade Dancer. Just watch videos on those two classes and you'll see what I mean.

- FFXIV - Yeah this is one of ESO's major competitors. However the combat system in this game is slow and boring. If it was the combat system that decided how well a game would do. FFXIV would be near the bottom of the barrel.

Those are my reason why I believe ESO's combat system from a MMORPG standpoint is ok.

Pr0Skygon · January 2018

Not far worse, but yeah, worse.

LiquidPony wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

fred.thomsonb16_ESO wrote: »

Animation cancelling is endgame content much like it is in a lot of competitive games, it's only hard to learn with the default keybinds, some players do and kudos to them. If you are having a hard time get a mouse with buttons on it, using a gaming mouse even with 3 fingers on each hand and correctly bound keys you'll be able to cancel effectively.

wut.

so your telling me to be skilled you have to buy a mouse with more buttons... so you can keybind more... with a game where you use WASD+1to6 skill buttons, right+left click, space and weaponswap(mines G)?
but learning to use a bug is... end game... especially if you have a better mouse to achieve this?
sounds like rigging macros to achieve a better game to me.

Maybe I'm just a jerk, but anytime I see people complaining about "animation canceling" I can't help but think: git gud.

FYI: plenty of people animation cancel perfectly well on console with controllers. It isn't rocket surgery. You don't need some fancy gaming mouse and keyboard to do it. I play on PC like once every 3 months on PTS and I can animation cancel fine with a regular ol' mouse and keyboard.

Besides, IMO, animation canceling gives combat an interesting flow that I like, and in some ways makes sense in a "real world" kind of way. Light attack weaving (if you consider that "animation canceling") is like a boxer's jab. We obviously need to be able to cancel skills to put up a block or dodge-roll or bash. Perhaps, ideally, a cancelled animation would only do some fractional amount of potential damage proportional to the length of the animation, but that does seem fairly complicated.

Most of the "DAE hate animation canceling crowd" seem to be butthurt PvPers who can't wrap their heads around the fact that they're getting wrecked by better players using better builds.

As I said before, animation canceling isn't the actual problem, the problem is how ZOS handle it.
The most glaring issue is how ugly it makes the combat looks. When I'm on my stamNB PvE build, all I can see is my character bashing, but in reality, he has just light attack + skill + bash. This is not bragging, because they're a ton of people doing this (and I'm using a controller, on PC, please don't judge me

)
The second issue is how different skills can have different time to cancel. For example, using Endless Hail and Caltrops, you can almost skip the whole animation. On the other hand, while using Blockage, you'll have to wait till your character smash their staff to the ground, then you can cancel; If you cancel before that, the skill will not get register.

Pr0Skygon · January 2018

Not far worse, but yeah, worse.

thedude33 wrote: »

75% sided with the two positive choices.
18% sided with the two negative choices.

Me thinks the OP opinion doesn't line up with the overwhelming majority of the player base.

I think you misunderstanding my OP.
If you're thinking my OP is the title, then you've just got clickbaited, sorry but this is the most effective way to draw attention

My OP is more simple actually: Something needs to be improved about the combat animation in ESO.
So you may look at the poll, and think there's 2 agree, and 2 disagree polls. But in fact, there're 3 agree, and 1 disagree.
You might call be cheating, but hey, if it works, and does more good than harm, I'm willing to take the blame

Pr0Skygon · January 2018

Not far worse, but yeah, worse.

dday3six wrote: »

I really liked ESO’s combat at console lanuch, but over time it has deteriorated for me. Having played FXIV:ARR on and off since launch and more recently the tech test for Tera on console. I believe ESO’s combat is lacking at present. Classes do not feel unique because of overlapping skill lines, and the reliance on one dimensional heavy attacks for resource management gets very boring.

Though admittedly the test was a bit laggy, with Tera for console the combo system was well done. Skills had cooldowns, but also fed into 2-4 skill combo chains. The combo chain would overlap button mapping so a skill triggered by L1 + O for example would continue to be executed by the same button sequence provided the next skill in the chain was not on CD.

The more thought I put into ESO’s combat, the more I wish ZOS had gone down a route which allows skills and even light/heavy attacks to combo sequence and empower one another.

ESO, especially at present, has a very rigid and static feel to combat.

I'd love to see ZOS implement that light attack follow up with skill combo idea

Pr0Skygon · January 2018

Not far worse, but yeah, worse.

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

The only Fantasy MMORPG that I've played lately that I feel has a better combat system. Is by far Black Desert Online. Their system is so fluid and crisp, almost immaculate for a MMORPG.

Far as ESO's other competitors that I've played recently lets see.

- GW2 - Combat here is fluid, however because of the style of this game. I tries to have a traditional and action combat system in one. Which leads to loads of issues, from a balance and skill gap point. Also because GW2 combat system is the way that it is. Forget trying to win a outmanned battle. It's nearly immposible in that game. Not to mention that ANet had dumb down GW2's combat system so much to allow a monkey to be able to play it and feel like a world champ.

- TERA - Combat here is decent however, it is far clunkier then ESO's combat system. Not to mention the game engine makes the combat system lag soo much.

- BnS - The combat system here is pretty good. However compared to ESO, BnS's combat system also feel clunky AF. I'll give yall two classes Destroyer and Blade Dancer. Just watch videos on those two classes and you'll see what I mean.

- FFXIV - Yeah this is one of ESO's major competitors. However the combat system in this game is slow and boring. If it was the combat system that decided how well a game would do. FFXIV would be near the bottom of the barrel.

Those are my reason why I believe ESO's combat system from a MMORPG standpoint is ok.

Well I did say only about the animation and feel of combat, if you dive deeper, ESO would seem to be a lot better.
I personally think GW2 for example, has very fluid combat, but the actual mechanic is just boring af.

Aeorath · January 2018

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Do you want something more like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlRmU7yfW0I

God I forgot how awful skyrim combat looks

Ugly or not, it's way more realistic; I remember I chose to play archer in Skyrim just to avoid that clunky animation in a fight. And with all this 'animation cancelling' discussion going on, well I still don't think the combat system is FAR WORSE than the competition... but I am pretty sure they aren't able to implement a combat system a la The Witcher.

Pr0Skygon · January 2018

Not far worse, but yeah, worse.

Aeorath wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Do you want something more like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlRmU7yfW0I

God I forgot how awful skyrim combat looks

Ugly or not, it's way more realistic; I remember I chose to play archer in Skyrim just to avoid that clunky animation in a fight. And with all this 'animation cancelling' discussion going on, well I still don't think the combat system is FAR WORSE than the competition... but I am pretty sure they aren't able to implement a combat system a la The Witcher.

Skyrim combat suits its sandbox RPG game design. ESO combat suits its MMORPG team focus game design.
But damn, both of those game has pretty bad combat animation. Skyrim came out in 2011, and at that time, its combat doesn't seem so bad. But for an MMORPG coming into 2018, ESO combat has a lot to be desired.

fred.thomsonb16_ESO · January 2018

Totally.

thedude33 wrote: »

lol as usual it all comes down to personal preference. Just watched your Blade Soul video= horrible. That's your 'proof' that ESO is lacking? Looks more like fight scenes from Mortal Combat on Nintendo 64. No thanks.

I understand where you're coming from, it was more to display the variety and styles offered. Linking attacks into combos, smooth transitions, bonuses provided by using specific 'cancels'. Swinging a sword around or poking light attacks with a staff in ESO does not look very warrior like, has the same set of animations from level 1 to 50 and if you let the whole animation play out for every attack you would probably be dead before you did any meaningful damage. Blade and Soul is definitely one of the lesser examples but the combat system is very well implemented despite the rest of the games flaws. BDO's combat system is probably the best out there but the monstrous grind to be able to do anything meaningful combat-wise holds it back from the casual market, if ZOS could plagiarize some of their mechanics ESO would be beyond reproach.

Saoghal · March 2018

It's fine as it is, but I'd love to see some improvement.

Happy to have found this discussion. I was actually talking about this with a friend just now! Animation are okay, but still could have some improvement! I miss having some decapitation animation like in Skyrim and I always felt like animations feels a little less "solid" than over Skyrim. But, yeah, DECAPITATION! I miss that. Even older MMO like Age Of Conan have it, so I know it's not a technical limitation!

AhPook_Is_Here · March 2018

Other (leave your comment below, I'd love to read them)

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Generally it is okay, but couple things i'd like to see go. I don't like the animation cancelling being so crucial part of dealing tons of damage.

Other thing i don't like is the targeting system. If you have clear line of sight, arrows will follow the target like a heat seeking missile. It is stupid.

Other than that, combat system is fine

I wonder why they never fixed this, should be cake to run an inverse sine function.

Biro123 · March 2018

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Generally it is okay, but couple things i'd like to see go. I don't like the animation cancelling being so crucial part of dealing tons of damage.

Other thing i don't like is the targeting system. If you have clear line of sight, arrows will follow the target like a heat seeking missile. It is stupid.

Other than that, combat system is fine

I wonder why they never fixed this, should be cake to run an inverse sine function.

Assuming the target is locked into its direction of movement and cannot change it during the flight of the arrow?

AhPook_Is_Here · March 2018

Other (leave your comment below, I'd love to read them)

Biro123 wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Generally it is okay, but couple things i'd like to see go. I don't like the animation cancelling being so crucial part of dealing tons of damage.

Other thing i don't like is the targeting system. If you have clear line of sight, arrows will follow the target like a heat seeking missile. It is stupid.

Other than that, combat system is fine

I wonder why they never fixed this, should be cake to run an inverse sine function.

Assuming the target is locked into its direction of movement and cannot change it during the flight of the arrow?

and travel time is reduced to minimize it, ya it's just basic phase cancellation.

Biro123 · March 2018

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

The only Fantasy MMORPG that I've played lately that I feel has a better combat system. Is by far Black Desert Online. Their system is so fluid and crisp, almost immaculate for a MMORPG.

Far as ESO's other competitors that I've played recently lets see.

- GW2 - Combat here is fluid, however because of the style of this game. I tries to have a traditional and action combat system in one. Which leads to loads of issues, from a balance and skill gap point. Also because GW2 combat system is the way that it is. Forget trying to win a outmanned battle. It's nearly immposible in that game. Not to mention that ANet had dumb down GW2's combat system so much to allow a monkey to be able to play it and feel like a world champ.

- TERA - Combat here is decent however, it is far clunkier then ESO's combat system. Not to mention the game engine makes the combat system lag soo much.

- BnS - The combat system here is pretty good. However compared to ESO, BnS's combat system also feel clunky AF. I'll give yall two classes Destroyer and Blade Dancer. Just watch videos on those two classes and you'll see what I mean.

- FFXIV - Yeah this is one of ESO's major competitors. However the combat system in this game is slow and boring. If it was the combat system that decided how well a game would do. FFXIV would be near the bottom of the barrel.

Those are my reason why I believe ESO's combat system from a MMORPG standpoint is ok.

This is a personal preference thing. I watched some BDO video's at one point because I was thinking of trying it - but the combat animations really put me off!
I can see how it would feel fluid for a game - but really for an animation perspective, it uses that Asian style of (almost instantly) shifting from pose to pose - with each pose held for longer than it took to get there.. To me its completely unrealistic and stylized - and I much prefer the much smoother and realistic animations in ESO where if played out fully, they smoothly move through he full attack and back to idle.
But I suspect its the kind of instant transitions that would make animation cancelling not necessary.

*Edit in fact looking at that BDO vid linked above - its bloody awful.. Watch it - ignore the overblown weapon-trails and constant AOE effects and actually look at how the characters move - Sooo jumpy and rigid. yuk!
And why does every single weapon have huge magical AOE-type effects with it? I mean think about it - how the hell can a weapon do AOE damage without cutting in half and instantly killing everything it hits.. I mean surely the first target to either block, or not be killed by it (armour took it or whatever) would stop the swing - thereby stopping the AOE.. It just makes no sense!!
Whatever happened to games that swung a weapon in some kind of realistic way? ESO is one of the few(even though there are too many weapon-aoe's for my taste) - please don't spoil it!

NewBlacksmurf · March 2018

Nope, not at all.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Combat has never been bad or worse. I think the that’s what makes it different in a good way

People still trying to make this some other MMORPG lol....aight but it’s really not similar combat so what are those other games you consider comparable?

Uriel_Nocturne · March 2018

Nope, not at all.

Ah, irony.

For those times when you make a poll, and it doesn't go the way you wanted it to in any way.

ewhite106b16_ESO · March 2018

Not far worse, but yeah, worse.

ESO combat used to be decent, but it's aged VERY poorly compared to competitors like Black Desert. Animation canceling in particular is a huge mess from both a balance, animations and gameplay standpoint. Properly and deliberately implemented animation canceling like Black Desert is a good thing (some abilities can be canceled into others in a way that is properly animated and deliberately designed/balance). ESO animation canceling makes combat animations look rediculously spastic, and removes one of the few balancing levers for abilities the devs have left (since there's ability cooldowns in the game). It's also a nightmare from a gameplay/ergenomics standpoint again....because it's a bug the devs decided to call a "system" rather then fix.

Then there's the other problems like general lack of "impact" to the combat, overly long ranges for melee attacks to the point where the sword doesn't even hit the target (5m is insane here). Abilities and gear that aren't balanced properly due to differences between PVE and PVP. Combat needs the sort of ground up revamp that gear progression got with One Tamriel.

Combat would IMO be way better if the animations were sped up and ranges fixed to provide a better sense of impact. Players should be able to cancel into block/dodge/bash BUT at the cost of the ability in progress being completely nullified. Then add animation canceling back in slowly and deliberately linking specific abilities into other abilities (this also opens up the option of additional effects for the combination).