moved

  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    The sad part is that you can actually nerf teamwork (if you wanted to) there are very easy ways of completely destroying it and allowing numbers to always win over everything.
    Lucky ZOS hasn't gone down that route yet
    NA ~ Izanerys (NB/Templar/Sorc): Dracarys (Videos | Dracast Podcast)
    EU ~ Izanagi (NB/Sorc): Zerg Squad / Banana Squad
  • Satiar
    Satiar
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    Players playing together will always be more effective than not.

    ZoS has continually tried, they're just terrible at achieving their aim.
    Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead
    Auohildr Hjoras -- EP Nightblade
    Asvaldr Hjordis -- DC Nightblade
    Sierida Hjoras -- DC Sorc
    Angantyr Hjoras -- DC Templar
    Angantyr the Godsword -- AD Dragonknight
    Auøhildr Hjoras -- AD Warden



  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    Satiar wrote: »
    Players playing together will always be more effective than not.

    ZoS has continually tried, they're just terrible at achieving their aim.

    I'm happy to discuss any changes you consider they made to try and nerf coordination but we probably shouldn't hijack this thread to do so.
    To me the majority of ZOS' changes have always been to support and benefit teamwork actually.

    NA ~ Izanerys (NB/Templar/Sorc): Dracarys (Videos | Dracast Podcast)
    EU ~ Izanagi (NB/Sorc): Zerg Squad / Banana Squad
  • Satiar
    Satiar
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    Satiar wrote: »
    Players playing together will always be more effective than not.

    ZoS has continually tried, they're just terrible at achieving their aim.

    I'm happy to discuss any changes you consider they made to try and nerf coordination but we probably shouldn't hijack this thread to do so.
    To me the majority of ZOS' changes have always been to support and benefit teamwork actually.

    If you like.

    I was drawn to this thread by the idea of Inevitable Det being buffed, cuz I remember a few cases of it being quite effective. There were a few fights VE had in Chalman back in the day where an EP guild, I forget if it was PM or SoTP, had us under oils and had 5-10 ppl just spamming inevitable det on us while we fought on the flags. It had something of the old "Unstable Wall of Elements while under Meatbags" effect: do you purge the oil and blow up the det?

    The backbone of every top-end group has always been their speed and ability to efficiently purge negative effects. This is why ultimately, ZoS attempts to create DPS-based solutions failed. If you're specifically looking for some way to hurt a clumped group from range, you have to look at the core mechanics that make them work. Forcing them to tank damage/negative effects or purge and take burst is an interesting idea.

    That said, there's really not enough high end groups left in the game to make this an issue.

    Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead
    Auohildr Hjoras -- EP Nightblade
    Asvaldr Hjordis -- DC Nightblade
    Sierida Hjoras -- DC Sorc
    Angantyr Hjoras -- DC Templar
    Angantyr the Godsword -- AD Dragonknight
    Auøhildr Hjoras -- AD Warden



  • Minno
    Minno
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    Satiar wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    Players playing together will always be more effective than not.

    ZoS has continually tried, they're just terrible at achieving their aim.

    I'm happy to discuss any changes you consider they made to try and nerf coordination but we probably shouldn't hijack this thread to do so.
    To me the majority of ZOS' changes have always been to support and benefit teamwork actually.

    If you like.

    I was drawn to this thread by the idea of Inevitable Det being buffed, cuz I remember a few cases of it being quite effective. There were a few fights VE had in Chalman back in the day where an EP guild, I forget if it was PM or SoTP, had us under oils and had 5-10 ppl just spamming inevitable det on us while we fought on the flags. It had something of the old "Unstable Wall of Elements while under Meatbags" effect: do you purge the oil and blow up the det?

    The backbone of every top-end group has always been their speed and ability to efficiently purge negative effects. This is why ultimately, ZoS attempts to create DPS-based solutions failed. If you're specifically looking for some way to hurt a clumped group from range, you have to look at the core mechanics that make them work. Forcing them to tank damage/negative effects or purge and take burst is an interesting idea.

    That said, there's really not enough high end groups left in the game to make this an issue.

    Ive been critical of large group based play in the past, but I agree that the changes implemented impacted solo/small group more than larger group play. Inevitable det had potential, also agree there arent many groups left to justify spending time on buffing this ability (and honestly it was created to push DLC pvp sales similar to how warden was push; best single target dmg despite AOE design which was nerfed to make way for proc sets)

    Speed + mobility will do more for us less organized players than any nerf to large group tools. I can do more with my Templar if I had access to a snare/immobilze immunity + speed buffs than any direct buff to dmg or nerf to group dmg. Ability to pick apart targets should always exist in the class toolkit, regardless of "stand your ground" or "highly mobility" design intents and regardless of how big your group is.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • prototypefb
    prototypefb
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Someone somewhere has suggested a change to inevitable detonation that i rather like:

    ID no longer triggers when purged/cannot be purged (so it always blows up after 4 seconds).
    ID does zero damage if there are less than X players in it's radius when it goes off.
    However if there are more than X players, it simply instantly kills all enemies in the explosion radius.

    X (and radius) can be adjusted for balance.

    That should make them spread out :trollface:

    simple increase in the radius of inevitable detonation would make it much more effective, it's already quite good xD
  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
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    @Satiar just because your platform is dead doesn’t mean high end groups aren’t plentiful elsewhere
    PC NA
    @lexxypwns
    Xbox NA
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    Mageblade main
  • Satiar
    Satiar
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    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    @Satiar just because your platform is dead doesn’t mean high end groups aren’t plentiful elsewhere

    True. Is the PS4 scene experiencing their 1.5 era?
    Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead
    Auohildr Hjoras -- EP Nightblade
    Asvaldr Hjordis -- DC Nightblade
    Sierida Hjoras -- DC Sorc
    Angantyr Hjoras -- DC Templar
    Angantyr the Godsword -- AD Dragonknight
    Auøhildr Hjoras -- AD Warden



  • badmojo
    badmojo
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    Satiar wrote: »
    purge nerfs, rapids nerfs

    Those nerfs gave groups an advantage.
    [DC/NA]
    Make Purge Great Again! Revert the group only nerf of purge!
  • Satiar
    Satiar
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    badmojo wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    purge nerfs, rapids nerfs

    Those nerfs gave groups an advantage.

    Not in the slightest.

    Back in the day, short of another top-teir raid we were practically invincible when we weren’t *** around. You couldn’t heal debuff us, oil us. slow us, root us. We took keeps vs entire factions underneath constant oil and seige. On a good day pretty much the only way to stop us or a group like us was.... another group like us.

    I ran rapids back in those days, I could keep a 24 man raid moving constantly while under heavy fire, solo. I even had time to DPS. After the nerfs you needed multiple people for a group that size, and highly specialized. For 16 man now you probably want 2 of those builds where that’s almost all they do and it’s still not as good as it was.

    Purge was also much, much stronger. Groups like that functioned by insolating DPS with healers and support. The stronger the support skills, the more room for Dps, the stronger your wandering ball of death becomes.
    Edited by Satiar on February 26, 2018 12:53AM
    Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead
    Auohildr Hjoras -- EP Nightblade
    Asvaldr Hjordis -- DC Nightblade
    Sierida Hjoras -- DC Sorc
    Angantyr Hjoras -- DC Templar
    Angantyr the Godsword -- AD Dragonknight
    Auøhildr Hjoras -- AD Warden



  • Vilestride
    Vilestride
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    badmojo wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    purge nerfs, rapids nerfs

    Those nerfs gave groups an advantage.

    The 'affect group members only' aspect of the change did in a way, but the actual functional change did not. You also have to consider that the group members only change didn't really affect game-play because typically, outside of group play no one used these skills anyway. TYPICALLY of course, so really this is a pseudo nerf.

    The change to rapids to where it was removed by heals as well as damage meant you now need to apply it much more frequently. In the past you could get away without 'dedicated' rapids players and still be able to function as a competitive large scale group, meaning as Steve said, more room for extra DPS or heals.
    Edited by Vilestride on February 26, 2018 6:14AM
    "insert long character list here"


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  • badmojo
    badmojo
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    Satiar wrote: »
    badmojo wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    purge nerfs, rapids nerfs

    Those nerfs gave groups an advantage.

    Not in the slightest.

    Back in the day, short of another top-teir raid we were practically invincible when we weren’t *** around. You couldn’t heal debuff us, oil us. slow us, root us. We took keeps vs entire factions underneath constant oil and seige. On a good day pretty much the only way to stop us or a group like us was.... another group like us.

    I ran rapids back in those days, I could keep a 24 man raid moving constantly while under heavy fire, solo. I even had time to DPS. After the nerfs you needed multiple people for a group that size, and highly specialized. For 16 man now you probably want 2 of those builds where that’s almost all they do and it’s still not as good as it was.

    Purge was also much, much stronger. Groups like that functioned by insolating DPS with healers and support. The stronger the support skills, the more room for Dps, the stronger your wandering ball of death becomes.

    I see, I was talking about the nerf that made those abilities group only. No other change has tipped the scales in favor of ball groups like that has.

    You can complain about the effectivness, but the non-grouped players lost both abilities entirely. We can no longer lean on other members of our alliance for those buffs, making it 10x as hard for random players to take on a group the same size. These days groups dont seem to die until you outnumber them 2 to 1 or a group on your team shows up.

    Forgive me if I dont shed a tear over you group only advantages not being as good as launch.

    Wtb small group only campaign.
    [DC/NA]
    Make Purge Great Again! Revert the group only nerf of purge!
  • badmojo
    badmojo
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    Vilestride wrote: »
    badmojo wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    purge nerfs, rapids nerfs

    Those nerfs gave groups an advantage.
    You also have to consider that the group members only change didn't really affect game-play because typically, outside of group play no one used these skills anyway.

    LOL wut? You think all the templars on siege lines prefer to cast clensing constantly so people can use the purify synergy? Rather than simply run around hitting purge?

    You dont think non grouped people also hit rapids before the zerg rushed into a keep?

    I dont know where you get this idea that people only used them in groups. Its much easier to play support when the randoms you are supporting arent being snared, rooted and lit on fire constantly.
    [DC/NA]
    Make Purge Great Again! Revert the group only nerf of purge!
  • Talcyndl
    Talcyndl
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    Just bring back ground oils. With no aoe cap that would be the bomb

    Worst change ever...even though ground oils were incredibly stupid, and obviously not working as intended, they served a very useful anti-zerg purpose.
    Tal'gro Bol
    PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
    http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/
  • Vilestride
    Vilestride
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    badmojo wrote: »
    Vilestride wrote: »
    badmojo wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    purge nerfs, rapids nerfs

    Those nerfs gave groups an advantage.
    You also have to consider that the group members only change didn't really affect game-play because typically, outside of group play no one used these skills anyway.

    LOL wut? You think all the templars on siege lines prefer to cast clensing constantly so people can use the purify synergy? Rather than simply run around hitting purge?

    You dont think non grouped people also hit rapids before the zerg rushed into a keep?

    I dont know where you get this idea that people only used them in groups. Its much easier to play support when the randoms you are supporting arent being snared, rooted and lit on fire constantly.

    I mean realistically who is running a group support build and not playing in a group. Sorry but the logic of being in favour of players who run along supporting zergs but not being in favour of large organised group play doesn't coincide to me. Then again, I doubt I will ever understand the zerg surfing mentality.
    "insert long character list here"


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  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Vilestride wrote: »
    badmojo wrote: »
    Vilestride wrote: »
    badmojo wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    purge nerfs, rapids nerfs

    Those nerfs gave groups an advantage.
    You also have to consider that the group members only change didn't really affect game-play because typically, outside of group play no one used these skills anyway.

    LOL wut? You think all the templars on siege lines prefer to cast clensing constantly so people can use the purify synergy? Rather than simply run around hitting purge?

    You dont think non grouped people also hit rapids before the zerg rushed into a keep?

    I dont know where you get this idea that people only used them in groups. Its much easier to play support when the randoms you are supporting arent being snared, rooted and lit on fire constantly.

    I mean realistically who is running a group support build and not playing in a group. Sorry but the logic of being in favour of players who run along supporting zergs but not being in favour of large organised group play doesn't coincide to me. Then again, I doubt I will ever understand the zerg surfing mentality.

    Ehm. I was doing that all the time back when purge helped people around you. I wasn't "running a group support build", i simply switched one slot for purge when i saw it will be needed (cleansing oil from door siegers etc.)

    Heck i am still doing it with siege shield today.
  • zyk
    zyk
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Vilestride wrote: »

    I mean realistically who is running a group support build and not playing in a group. Sorry but the logic of being in favour of players who run along supporting zergs but not being in favour of large organised group play doesn't coincide to me. Then again, I doubt I will ever understand the zerg surfing mentality.

    Ehm. I was doing that all the time back when purge helped people around you. I wasn't "running a group support build", i simply switched one slot for purge when i saw it will be needed (cleansing oil from door siegers etc.)

    Heck i am still doing it with siege shield today.

    I was the same. I used to slot purge and rapids for other players. Most of my builds have support elements. I like to help teammates I may encounter when I am ungrouped.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you"
    pvp videos: eso zyk on youtube
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  • rivenjr
    rivenjr
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    If the goal is to spread a zerg out, just make Vicious Death work the way it used to... remember? If you died by Vicious Death then you too exploded with Vicious Death.

    I’d be more in favor of proximity mines that debuff. Like a Disease that spreads to those too close to you.
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  • badmojo
    badmojo
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    Vilestride wrote: »
    badmojo wrote: »
    Vilestride wrote: »
    badmojo wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    purge nerfs, rapids nerfs

    Those nerfs gave groups an advantage.
    You also have to consider that the group members only change didn't really affect game-play because typically, outside of group play no one used these skills anyway.

    LOL wut? You think all the templars on siege lines prefer to cast clensing constantly so people can use the purify synergy? Rather than simply run around hitting purge?

    You dont think non grouped people also hit rapids before the zerg rushed into a keep?

    I dont know where you get this idea that people only used them in groups. Its much easier to play support when the randoms you are supporting arent being snared, rooted and lit on fire constantly.

    I mean realistically who is running a group support build and not playing in a group. Sorry but the logic of being in favour of players who run along supporting zergs but not being in favour of large organised group play doesn't coincide to me. Then again, I doubt I will ever understand the zerg surfing mentality.

    Lots of people used to and still do run support while not in a group. Its alliance vs alliance vs alliance, not group vs group. When I bring my healer into Cyrodiil I am constantly healing and buffing every blue player I see. I have even worked in a 5pc Stendarr set which removes 5 neg effects when healing friendlies, because I can no longer use purge on others.

    When you say not in favor of large group play are you referring to my 'wtb small group campaign' comment? Because that was not about me disliking large groups...it was about me being bitter that ZOS has given groups an unfair advantage with purge and rapids. That advantage makes it very difficult to fight organized groups, they are naturally hard to fight because of their organization, giving them group only abilities just seems unnessesarily crual towards the large population of small group and non-grouped players.

    I have experienced group play in Cyrodiil, I used to play in groups everyday. The only reason I dont play in groups currently is because I have to have a lot of faith in the groups leadership, my pvp guild is no longer active, and I havent found any groups I want to join. I am by no means anti-group, but I am certainly against giving groups the advantage of their own abilities and sets. If I was running ESO the term group only wouldnt exist.

    I suspect some people get defensive and dismissive about this topic for the exact reason I dislike it, because they have an advantage over non-groups, and they dont want to risk losing it by discussing the realities of it on the forums. Like what PVPer in their right mind wouldnt see that giving groups exclusive access to two of the most important pvp abilities is not fair. I dont care how few players you believe would use them, its an advantage groups didnt need, they were already powerful.
    [DC/NA]
    Make Purge Great Again! Revert the group only nerf of purge!
  • Vilestride
    Vilestride
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    Vilestride wrote: »
    badmojo wrote: »
    Vilestride wrote: »
    badmojo wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    purge nerfs, rapids nerfs

    Those nerfs gave groups an advantage.
    You also have to consider that the group members only change didn't really affect game-play because typically, outside of group play no one used these skills anyway.

    LOL wut? You think all the templars on siege lines prefer to cast clensing constantly so people can use the purify synergy? Rather than simply run around hitting purge?

    You dont think non grouped people also hit rapids before the zerg rushed into a keep?

    I dont know where you get this idea that people only used them in groups. Its much easier to play support when the randoms you are supporting arent being snared, rooted and lit on fire constantly.

    Then again, I doubt I will ever understand the zerg surfing mentality.

    "insert long character list here"


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  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    Elong wrote: »
    Just add a new Battlespirit Debuff, for every player that is within 5 metres of you, you lose 5% of your hp.

    ONE DAWNBREAKER TO RULE THEM ALL
    0331
    0602
  • badmojo
    badmojo
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    Vilestride wrote: »
    Vilestride wrote: »
    badmojo wrote: »
    Vilestride wrote: »
    badmojo wrote: »
    Satiar wrote: »
    purge nerfs, rapids nerfs

    Those nerfs gave groups an advantage.
    You also have to consider that the group members only change didn't really affect game-play because typically, outside of group play no one used these skills anyway.

    LOL wut? You think all the templars on siege lines prefer to cast clensing constantly so people can use the purify synergy? Rather than simply run around hitting purge?

    You dont think non grouped people also hit rapids before the zerg rushed into a keep?

    I dont know where you get this idea that people only used them in groups. Its much easier to play support when the randoms you are supporting arent being snared, rooted and lit on fire constantly.

    Then again, I doubt I will ever understand the zerg surfing mentality.

    I doubt I will ever understand people who can't look at game mechanics objectively.
    [DC/NA]
    Make Purge Great Again! Revert the group only nerf of purge!
  • DoctorESO
    DoctorESO
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    .
    Edited by DoctorESO on September 22, 2018 10:52PM
  • Vilestride
    Vilestride
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    You guys are right. The 50 man 'not groups ' moving back and forth between beakers, chal, ales on a regular basis that can be likened to a migrating heard need more support. There's not enough going for them. Revert the change please zeni. Cheeers
    "insert long character list here"


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  • Sanct16
    Sanct16
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    Vilestride wrote: »
    You guys are right. The 50 man 'not groups ' moving back and forth between beakers, chal, ales on a regular basis that can be likened to a migrating heard need more support. There's not enough going for them. Revert the change please zeni. Cheeers

    Tbf I don't see why supporting allies should be limited to group members either. Mechanics should work the same for everyone. Being grouped is inherently stronger due to more coordination so ungrouped players shouldnt be double punished by also not being able to support each other.

    While I totally disagree with the idea that there should be ranged counters I do agree with support abilities hitting ungrouped players.
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  • pzschrek
    pzschrek
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    Sandman929 wrote: »
    They want the organized group to lose, but not by doing what's necessary to make themselves win...in the end the groups that work well together will use those tools to continue winning and the groups that don't like it will continue looking for the magic bullet to turn their success to failure.

    Nailed it.



    “The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.”
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