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Zaan Is Fine; Easy to Counter
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Morgul667✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I see a lot of merit in both sides. I kinda wish the 1pc was max magic though. On a stamblade who is marked, they have little to no chance against zaans. To stamina builds it can be fairly deadly which presents and interesting issue. Yes I think it is fine but I also see a few cases where it is not fine and needs some fine tuning
That’s all I’m trying to say, tone down the outlier situations and fix the LoS bug.Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
But you can boost zaan damage via concussion(8%), penetration(this just counters opponents mitigation but still impacts the damage they receive), major/minor berserk(25/8%), exploiter(10%), and the unique damage done buff from incap(20%).
Now, with spinners and infused+sharpened dw with berserker/shock glyphs and an infused crusher back bar on a mageblade you’ve got access to 20k+ penetration, 46% damage buff(71 with reapers mark, but that’s a crazy low uptime).
This more than overpowers your theoretical 30% mitigation against zaan and gives higher damage than you’re suggesting
Sure, you can do that, but I can also say that I have 50k spell resist, while playing a Dunmer, with major and minor protection.
I was just using those numbers as a reasonable baseline for what Zaan damage is realistically like.
And it still doesn't change the fact that if you have that level of damage amplification, you don't need Zaan to kill someone.
If you are slapping someone with 20k penetration and 71% damage amplification, incap, assassins will and killers blade is going to leave them dead much faster than Zaan will.
To answer your last paragraph, that’s only true if you’re stacking other damage. With zaan you can get those things on a 28k hp NB that just stacks heavy sustajn. On a build like that, 46% damage increase is almost irrelevant because you’re not running a ton of max magika or spell damage, instead you’re relying on a (relatively)small amount of skill damage and the proc set that you’ve built around delivering enough concurrent damage to be lethal. It’s also not realistic to get the incap damage bonus on an incap do it only benefits the back half of your combo, which is where zaan shines
You are still running Spinners and dual swords in that situation, so you are still dedicating a good portion of your gear allocation to damage.
And then you are still relying on a combo to kill someone, but you need to get to get Zaan to proc to actually deal enough damage to secure the kill.
Your entire lethal potential is dependent on something that canI see a lot of merit in both sides. I kinda wish the 1pc was max magic though. On a stamblade who is marked, they have little to no chance against zaans. To stamina builds it can be fairly deadly which presents and interesting issue. Yes I think it is fine but I also see a few cases where it is not fine and needs some fine tuning
That’s all I’m trying to say, tone down the outlier situations and fix the LoS bug.Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
But you can boost zaan damage via concussion(8%), penetration(this just counters opponents mitigation but still impacts the damage they receive), major/minor berserk(25/8%), exploiter(10%), and the unique damage done buff from incap(20%).
Now, with spinners and infused+sharpened dw with berserker/shock glyphs and an infused crusher back bar on a mageblade you’ve got access to 20k+ penetration, 46% damage buff(71 with reapers mark, but that’s a crazy low uptime).
This more than overpowers your theoretical 30% mitigation against zaan and gives higher damage than you’re suggesting
Sure, you can do that, but I can also say that I have 50k spell resist, while playing a Dunmer, with major and minor protection.
I was just using those numbers as a reasonable baseline for what Zaan damage is realistically like.
And it still doesn't change the fact that if you have that level of damage amplification, you don't need Zaan to kill someone.
If you are slapping someone with 20k penetration and 71% damage amplification, incap, assassins will and killers blade is going to leave them dead much faster than Zaan will.
To answer your last paragraph, that’s only true if you’re stacking other damage. With zaan you can get those things on a 28k hp NB that just stacks heavy sustajn. On a build like that, 46% damage increase is almost irrelevant because you’re not running a ton of max magika or spell damage, instead you’re relying on a (relatively)small amount of skill damage and the proc set that you’ve built around delivering enough concurrent damage to be lethal. It’s also not realistic to get the incap damage bonus on an incap do it only benefits the back half of your combo, which is where zaan shines
You are still running Spinners and dual swords in that situation, so you are still dedicating a good portion of your gear allocation to damage.
And then you are still relying on a combo to kill someone, but you need to get to get Zaan to proc to actually deal enough damage to secure the kill.
Your entire lethal potential is dependent on something that can be denied, and with limited control on behalf of the wearer.
You can't just slap Zaan onto a build and have it put in massive amounts of work like you van with Selenes, Skoria, Troll King and Bloodspawn. You actually have to make concessions elsewhere in your build to make it work.
Please enlighten us as to what concessions you have to make in a build for zaan to work?
Aren't most players weaving light/heavy attacks in between skills anyway? So what they might have to weave two light attacks instead to make sure they get a crit for a proc!
Wow that sure is a big concession to make for so much free damage!
The damage isn't going to kill anyone on its own unless you stack up amps from gear and skills.
The proc also has distinct counterplay that you need to work around, meaning that you need a way to keep a target next to you
I dropped bloodspawn for Zaan on my stam sorc and it didn't perform nearly as well, simply because without immobilisations or tools to buff the damage of the proc the set is mediocre.
I didnt try on my stamsorc but I have seen some people do more than 10k on my death recap in BG
Yes I could have moved away but I tried and got lag/snare/stun/followed long enough for this to kill, combined with other skills that were hitting me. Others skills did some good damage but nothing compared to Zaan
Basically you can survive it the same way you can survive soul assaut except this is a 2 pieces set that does not proc often but does lots of damage when it procs
PVP is all about burst and a damage set that does 4 times the damage burst of other sets is unbalance big time in my book.
5 -
zParallaxz✭✭✭✭✭Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
But you can boost zaan damage via concussion(8%), penetration(this just counters opponents mitigation but still impacts the damage they receive), major/minor berserk(25/8%), exploiter(10%), and the unique damage done buff from incap(20%).
Now, with spinners and infused+sharpened dw with berserker/shock glyphs and an infused crusher back bar on a mageblade you’ve got access to 20k+ penetration, 46% damage buff(71 with reapers mark, but that’s a crazy low uptime).
This more than overpowers your theoretical 30% mitigation against zaan and gives higher damage than you’re suggesting
Who tf has major berserk, concussion, and exploiter passive on a MAG char in pvp. Especially exploiter, no mag char in pvp should ever put that many points there. You drastically cut the damage of your main attack whether it be whip, frag, swallow souls, jabs, and birds.1 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
So in like one of the worst case scenarios for the Zaan user with base tooltip, no buffs and not doing anything else its possible to do 8k through block. From a 2 piece set? Doing 8k dmg through block while being naked and unbuffed and not doing anything? And thats balanced? Got to admit. Im speechless.
AHAHAH
8k single target over 5s, through block with a 10m range (easily breakable,) and an 18s cool down.
Aka 2 dots worth. Yes. Balanced.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
Abysswarrior45✭✭✭✭
2 are without cp in the red tree, BUT with an actual build and the 30k one is with an actual build and cp in the red tree. No monster set should do that4 -
Sixty5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Abysswarrior45 wrote: »
2 are without cp in the red tree, BUT with an actual build and the 30k one is with an actual build and cp in the red tree. No monster set should do that
Zaan at base deals 6 ticks of damage, if you are taking 8 ticks of damage, then the person who killed you is running Elf Bane, and you have stood still for 7 whole seconds and eaten the entire proc.Edited by Sixty5 on March 1, 2018 4:02AMLord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.
I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds2 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭zaan is impossible to counter as a stamDK, when your opponent knows what he's doing.
Its not a super overpowered I win button like viper was, but Its still an ''If you don't escape, I win'' button.
And Dk is the worst when it comes to moving out.
Maybe the set is fine and its time to buff Dks, who knows.
But with everything considered this set outperforming my two dots combined, is a little BS.
Its essentially a soul assault that lets you do whatever you want, which makes it stronger than soul assault itself.Edited by Ragnarock41 on March 1, 2018 4:26AM4 -
Morgul667✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Most skills do 2, 3, 4 k.
Zaan does more than 10k (10-12k) when you try to avoid it (with lag and others things). it's more than some ultimates
Can go up to 65K as seen on some screens (probably extreme case but still)Edited by Morgul667 on March 1, 2018 9:00AM0 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I like how your scenario involves a zaan user that does nothing at all other than proc it. Such a realistic image you are portraying. GL healing through that *** when you are feared and incapped and have to deal with major defile + 20% more damage received among other debuffs and dots. Which isn't at all hard to do for mag/stamblades. This set is just pure cheese. I don't see why people feel the need to even defend it. I mean do you really need this much damage from a 2 piece in order to kill someone?Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.5 -
Sixty5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I like how your scenario involves a zaan user that does nothing at all other than proc it. Such a realistic image you are portraying. GL healing through that *** when you are feared and incapped and have to deal with major defile + 20% more damage received among other debuffs and dots. Which isn't at all hard to do for mag/stamblades. This set is just pure cheese. I don't see why people feel the need to even defend it. I mean do you really need this much damage from a 2 piece in order to kill someone?Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
In the time it takes for a Zaan proc to finish, a person can get off a full combo. Given that Reverb, heavy attack, dawnbreaker, reverse slice is already going to kill someone, the damage from Zaan becomes redundant there, and you could replace it with literally any other monster set in the game and have nothing change.
On the other hand, if the person is entirely focused on locking you down and staying on top of you with their build, then they deal pretty much no damage without Zaan, and thus cannot fight multiple opponents or have have a chance at getting a kill combo more than once every 18 seconds.
It's one of the first thing that I found when I tried the set out. Zaan doesn't get you very many kills. Over 10 battlegrounds matches with the set, I think there were two or three instances where I killed someone I otherwise wouldn't have because of a Zaan proc. Blood Spawn or Troll King would have been far more useful. Even Selenes or Velidreth probably would have netted me more kills.Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.
I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds1 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I like how your scenario involves a zaan user that does nothing at all other than proc it. Such a realistic image you are portraying. GL healing through that *** when you are feared and incapped and have to deal with major defile + 20% more damage received among other debuffs and dots. Which isn't at all hard to do for mag/stamblades. This set is just pure cheese. I don't see why people feel the need to even defend it. I mean do you really need this much damage from a 2 piece in order to kill someone?Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
In the time it takes for a Zaan proc to finish, a person can get off a full combo. Given that Reverb, heavy attack, dawnbreaker, reverse slice is already going to kill someone, the damage from Zaan becomes redundant there, and you could replace it with literally any other monster set in the game and have nothing change.
On the other hand, if the person is entirely focused on locking you down and staying on top of you with their build, then they deal pretty much no damage without Zaan, and thus cannot fight multiple opponents or have have a chance at getting a kill combo more than once every 18 seconds.
It's one of the first thing that I found when I tried the set out. Zaan doesn't get you very many kills. Over 10 battlegrounds matches with the set, I think there were two or three instances where I killed someone I otherwise wouldn't have because of a Zaan proc. Blood Spawn or Troll King would have been far more useful. Even Selenes or Velidreth probably would have netted me more kills.
Except zaan, at worst, offers the best area denial available in game at the cost of only a 2pc set. That alone is very, very strong and arguably unbalanced...8 -
Sixty5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I like how your scenario involves a zaan user that does nothing at all other than proc it. Such a realistic image you are portraying. GL healing through that *** when you are feared and incapped and have to deal with major defile + 20% more damage received among other debuffs and dots. Which isn't at all hard to do for mag/stamblades. This set is just pure cheese. I don't see why people feel the need to even defend it. I mean do you really need this much damage from a 2 piece in order to kill someone?Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
In the time it takes for a Zaan proc to finish, a person can get off a full combo. Given that Reverb, heavy attack, dawnbreaker, reverse slice is already going to kill someone, the damage from Zaan becomes redundant there, and you could replace it with literally any other monster set in the game and have nothing change.
On the other hand, if the person is entirely focused on locking you down and staying on top of you with their build, then they deal pretty much no damage without Zaan, and thus cannot fight multiple opponents or have have a chance at getting a kill combo more than once every 18 seconds.
It's one of the first thing that I found when I tried the set out. Zaan doesn't get you very many kills. Over 10 battlegrounds matches with the set, I think there were two or three instances where I killed someone I otherwise wouldn't have because of a Zaan proc. Blood Spawn or Troll King would have been far more useful. Even Selenes or Velidreth probably would have netted me more kills.
Except zaan, at worst, offers the best area denial available in game at the cost of only a 2pc set. That alone is very, very strong and arguably unbalanced...
Honestly, I'd rather see more sets that actually change fight dynamics. That being said, I still want to see the range on Zaan cut, if only to make the counterplay to the set blatantly obvious.Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.
I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
So in like one of the worst case scenarios for the Zaan user with base tooltip, no buffs and not doing anything else its possible to do 8k through block. From a 2 piece set? Doing 8k dmg through block while being naked and unbuffed and not doing anything? And thats balanced? Got to admit. Im speechless.
AHAHAH
8k single target over 5s, through block with a 10m range (easily breakable,) and an 18s cool down.
Aka 2 dots worth. Yes. Balanced.
8k dmg through block without doing absolutely anything and with a completely unbuffed tooltip. Again, 8k dmg through block without doing anything and being basically naked? Balanced indeed. Just so u can understand how ridiculous that is, a few months back we were calling procs that were doing 4k without block OP. Without block Zaan is doing 4k every second completely unbuffed.
Sort of like earthgore is balanced right? It has a very long cooldown and you can kill them in between the procs so the set is balanced....said no sane person ever.5 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »zaan is impossible to counter as a stamDK, when your opponent knows what he's doing.
Its not a super overpowered I win button like viper was, but Its still an ''If you don't escape, I win'' button.
And Dk is the worst when it comes to moving out.
Maybe the set is fine and its time to buff Dks, who knows.
But with everything considered this set outperforming my two dots combined, is a little BS.
Its essentially a soul assault that lets you do whatever you want, which makes it stronger than soul assault itself.
If soul assault was breakable by distance, cloak, and purge. (SA isn't even a problem anymore, the 70% death hug it gave you was.)
Yeah, stamDK has little in the way of counter for it, but that doesn't mean we should Nerf everything down to the lowest common denominator,Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
So in like one of the worst case scenarios for the Zaan user with base tooltip, no buffs and not doing anything else its possible to do 8k through block. From a 2 piece set? Doing 8k dmg through block while being naked and unbuffed and not doing anything? And thats balanced? Got to admit. Im speechless.
AHAHAH
8k single target over 5s, through block with a 10m range (easily breakable,) and an 18s cool down.
Aka 2 dots worth. Yes. Balanced.
8k dmg through block without doing absolutely anything and with a completely unbuffed tooltip. Again, 8k dmg through block without doing anything and being basically naked? Balanced indeed. Just so u can understand how ridiculous that is, a few months back we were calling procs that were doing 4k without block OP. Without block Zaan is doing 4k every second completely unbuffed.
Sort of like earthgore is balanced right? It has a very long cooldown and you can kill them in between the procs so the set is balanced....said no sane person ever.
Earthgore is 3s of effective immortality by way of full heal for a group. Zaan is 6s of possible killing against a single person that can be stopped, in many ways. Its all about counterplay. The viper procs did around 4/5k every 4s constistantly and had no way to stop it. Something like selenes can do 12k damage, but is so easily avoided its a null point.
The few issue I have with most procs. Strong or no is that they are RNG, and that is a BS way to win the fight. For instance skoria, I have had lucky procs where it kills the enemy as I am on literally 600 health, but times where it hardly procs at all. I don't like having fights won because of a virtual coin toss.
I would rather a whole new proc revamp where they have a 100% chance if a certain requirement is met. I.e. every 25 dot ticks for skoria. (5s with 5 dots.) then remove the arbitrary CDs. The stronger the effect, the harder to proc. Like zaan would be every 10 light attacks. (Not reproccing whilst active) stopping ganks and requiring timing.
There is also the idea that proc damage should scale, making them ineffective on tanks, but remain as effective for damage builds/PvE that make that sacrifice I also vote yes to that.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.2 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »zaan is impossible to counter as a stamDK, when your opponent knows what he's doing.
Its not a super overpowered I win button like viper was, but Its still an ''If you don't escape, I win'' button.
And Dk is the worst when it comes to moving out.
Maybe the set is fine and its time to buff Dks, who knows.
But with everything considered this set outperforming my two dots combined, is a little BS.
Its essentially a soul assault that lets you do whatever you want, which makes it stronger than soul assault itself.
If soul assault was breakable by distance, cloak, and purge. (SA isn't even a problem anymore, the 70% death hug it gave you was.)
Yeah, stamDK has little in the way of counter for it, but that doesn't mean we should Nerf everything down to the lowest common denominator,Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
So in like one of the worst case scenarios for the Zaan user with base tooltip, no buffs and not doing anything else its possible to do 8k through block. From a 2 piece set? Doing 8k dmg through block while being naked and unbuffed and not doing anything? And thats balanced? Got to admit. Im speechless.
AHAHAH
8k single target over 5s, through block with a 10m range (easily breakable,) and an 18s cool down.
Aka 2 dots worth. Yes. Balanced.
8k dmg through block without doing absolutely anything and with a completely unbuffed tooltip. Again, 8k dmg through block without doing anything and being basically naked? Balanced indeed. Just so u can understand how ridiculous that is, a few months back we were calling procs that were doing 4k without block OP. Without block Zaan is doing 4k every second completely unbuffed.
Sort of like earthgore is balanced right? It has a very long cooldown and you can kill them in between the procs so the set is balanced....said no sane person ever.
Earthgore is 3s of effective immortality by way of full heal for a group. Zaan is 6s of possible killing against a single person that can be stopped, in many ways. Its all about counterplay. The viper procs did around 4/5k every 4s constistantly and had no way to stop it. Something like selenes can do 12k damage, but is so easily avoided its a null point.
The few issue I have with most procs. Strong or no is that they are RNG, and that is a BS way to win the fight. For instance skoria, I have had lucky procs where it kills the enemy as I am on literally 600 health, but times where it hardly procs at all. I don't like having fights won because of a virtual coin toss.
I would rather a whole new proc revamp where they have a 100% chance if a certain requirement is met. I.e. every 25 dot ticks for skoria. (5s with 5 dots.) then remove the arbitrary CDs. The stronger the effect, the harder to proc. Like zaan would be every 10 light attacks. (Not reproccing whilst active) stopping ganks and requiring timing.
There is also the idea that proc damage should scale, making them ineffective on tanks, but remain as effective for damage builds/PvE that make that sacrifice I also vote yes to that.
This is amazing idea sir! Perfect!I'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Earthgore is 3s of effective immortality by way of full heal for a group. Zaan is 6s of possible killing against a single person that can be stopped, in many ways. Its all about counterplay. The viper procs did around 4/5k every 4s constistantly and had no way to stop it. Something like selenes can do 12k damage, but is so easily avoided its a null point.
The few issue I have with most procs. Strong or no is that they are RNG, and that is a BS way to win the fight. For instance skoria, I have had lucky procs where it kills the enemy as I am on literally 600 health, but times where it hardly procs at all. I don't like having fights won because of a virtual coin toss.
I would rather a whole new proc revamp where they have a 100% chance if a certain requirement is met. I.e. every 25 dot ticks for skoria. (5s with 5 dots.) then remove the arbitrary CDs. The stronger the effect, the harder to proc. Like zaan would be every 10 light attacks. (Not reproccing whilst active) stopping ganks and requiring timing.
There is also the idea that proc damage should scale, making them ineffective on tanks, but remain as effective for damage builds/PvE that make that sacrifice I also vote yes to that.
Earthgore has a 35 second cd. You people are talking about the long cd of Zaan. Earthgore cd is twice as long. Of course thats what the clueless person who designed the set was thinking. Long cd, very powerful effect, plenty of time in between to kill therefore balanced. Of course in PVP isnt just a 1v1 controlled environment. There are multiple different scenarios with a lot of things going and such ridiculously powerful effects will most likely be completely out of control in some scenarios i.e multiple people using it and making groups immortal.
But when it comes to Zaan of course the person using the set doesnt do anything else, they dont move, they dont gap close, they dont cc, they dont do anything, suddenly mobility is so good and breaking the beam is so easy even tho ironically everyone is complaining about snares, roots and not being able to move, including you, you are never outnumbered and you are generally always in a controlled environment where the set looks balanced.
See, i dont disagree with you in terms of proc conditions. There should be clear proc conditions that can be controlled. But the major difference between me and you is that i still have some sort of limits of what is considered actually balanced no matter what the proc conditions are or how long the cd is. Ridiculously powerful effects will always be OP. You somehow believe that a two piece set that does as much dmg as 2-3 of ur dots combined is somehow balanced. And then you are obviously complaining why ur mDK doesnt get buffed and doesnt have enough dmg. Well wtf did u expect when bs like that exist in the game that do more dmg than ur abilities. The only proc set that is actually balanced in terms of proc conditions, tooltip and skill is eternal hunt. Not just a stupid set doing free dmg.Edited by pieratsos on March 1, 2018 12:21PM6 -
laksikus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »zaan is impossible to counter as a stamDK, when your opponent knows what he's doing.
Its not a super overpowered I win button like viper was, but Its still an ''If you don't escape, I win'' button.
And Dk is the worst when it comes to moving out.
Maybe the set is fine and its time to buff Dks, who knows.
But with everything considered this set outperforming my two dots combined, is a little BS.
Its essentially a soul assault that lets you do whatever you want, which makes it stronger than soul assault itself.
If soul assault was breakable by distance, cloak, and purge. (SA isn't even a problem anymore, the 70% death hug it gave you was.)
Yeah, stamDK has little in the way of counter for it, but that doesn't mean we should Nerf everything down to the lowest common denominator,Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
So in like one of the worst case scenarios for the Zaan user with base tooltip, no buffs and not doing anything else its possible to do 8k through block. From a 2 piece set? Doing 8k dmg through block while being naked and unbuffed and not doing anything? And thats balanced? Got to admit. Im speechless.
AHAHAH
8k single target over 5s, through block with a 10m range (easily breakable,) and an 18s cool down.
Aka 2 dots worth. Yes. Balanced.
8k dmg through block without doing absolutely anything and with a completely unbuffed tooltip. Again, 8k dmg through block without doing anything and being basically naked? Balanced indeed. Just so u can understand how ridiculous that is, a few months back we were calling procs that were doing 4k without block OP. Without block Zaan is doing 4k every second completely unbuffed.
Sort of like earthgore is balanced right? It has a very long cooldown and you can kill them in between the procs so the set is balanced....said no sane person ever.
Earthgore is 3s of effective immortality by way of full heal for a group. Zaan is 6s of possible killing against a single person that can be stopped, in many ways. Its all about counterplay. The viper procs did around 4/5k every 4s constistantly and had no way to stop it. Something like selenes can do 12k damage, but is so easily avoided its a null point.
The few issue I have with most procs. Strong or no is that they are RNG, and that is a BS way to win the fight. For instance skoria, I have had lucky procs where it kills the enemy as I am on literally 600 health, but times where it hardly procs at all. I don't like having fights won because of a virtual coin toss.
I would rather a whole new proc revamp where they have a 100% chance if a certain requirement is met. I.e. every 25 dot ticks for skoria. (5s with 5 dots.) then remove the arbitrary CDs. The stronger the effect, the harder to proc. Like zaan would be every 10 light attacks. (Not reproccing whilst active) stopping ganks and requiring timing.
There is also the idea that proc damage should scale, making them ineffective on tanks, but remain as effective for damage builds/PvE that make that sacrifice I also vote yes to that.
Awesome. Every 10 light attacks, so you not only get a second 10k+ assassins will in your face, but zaan too2 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »zaan is impossible to counter as a stamDK, when your opponent knows what he's doing.
Its not a super overpowered I win button like viper was, but Its still an ''If you don't escape, I win'' button.
And Dk is the worst when it comes to moving out.
Maybe the set is fine and its time to buff Dks, who knows.
But with everything considered this set outperforming my two dots combined, is a little BS.
Its essentially a soul assault that lets you do whatever you want, which makes it stronger than soul assault itself.
If soul assault was breakable by distance, cloak, and purge. (SA isn't even a problem anymore, the 70% death hug it gave you was.)
Yeah, stamDK has little in the way of counter for it, but that doesn't mean we should Nerf everything down to the lowest common denominator,Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
So in like one of the worst case scenarios for the Zaan user with base tooltip, no buffs and not doing anything else its possible to do 8k through block. From a 2 piece set? Doing 8k dmg through block while being naked and unbuffed and not doing anything? And thats balanced? Got to admit. Im speechless.
AHAHAH
8k single target over 5s, through block with a 10m range (easily breakable,) and an 18s cool down.
Aka 2 dots worth. Yes. Balanced.
8k dmg through block without doing absolutely anything and with a completely unbuffed tooltip. Again, 8k dmg through block without doing anything and being basically naked? Balanced indeed. Just so u can understand how ridiculous that is, a few months back we were calling procs that were doing 4k without block OP. Without block Zaan is doing 4k every second completely unbuffed.
Sort of like earthgore is balanced right? It has a very long cooldown and you can kill them in between the procs so the set is balanced....said no sane person ever.
Earthgore is 3s of effective immortality by way of full heal for a group. Zaan is 6s of possible killing against a single person that can be stopped, in many ways. Its all about counterplay. The viper procs did around 4/5k every 4s constistantly and had no way to stop it. Something like selenes can do 12k damage, but is so easily avoided its a null point.
The few issue I have with most procs. Strong or no is that they are RNG, and that is a BS way to win the fight. For instance skoria, I have had lucky procs where it kills the enemy as I am on literally 600 health, but times where it hardly procs at all. I don't like having fights won because of a virtual coin toss.
I would rather a whole new proc revamp where they have a 100% chance if a certain requirement is met. I.e. every 25 dot ticks for skoria. (5s with 5 dots.) then remove the arbitrary CDs. The stronger the effect, the harder to proc. Like zaan would be every 10 light attacks. (Not reproccing whilst active) stopping ganks and requiring timing.
There is also the idea that proc damage should scale, making them ineffective on tanks, but remain as effective for damage builds/PvE that make that sacrifice I also vote yes to that.
as I said I might be thinking this way because I'm a stamDK.
I got facerolled by this set a few times because the user was a stamina build who kept gapclosing me in an Xv1 and even with expedition pots AS AN ORC, I couldn't break it. Anyways, I do realize for other classes, like sorc, Its just one button to escape from it. but for me this isn't the case.
So If zos is gonna make sets that force people to be mobile, Its time I have some damn mobility on my Dk.
Also If I had the option to pick a nerf I would still pick an earthgore nerf over zaan.
no matter how much it screws up my already broken class, zaan forces people to react. zos just forgot to think that us DK s have no real way of reacting to it, which didn't suprise me at all.
Edited by Ragnarock41 on March 1, 2018 12:50PM0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
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Earthgore is 3s of effective immortality by way of full heal for a group. Zaan is 6s of possible killing against a single person that can be stopped, in many ways. Its all about counterplay. The viper procs did around 4/5k every 4s constistantly and had no way to stop it. Something like selenes can do 12k damage, but is so easily avoided its a null point.
The few issue I have with most procs. Strong or no is that they are RNG, and that is a BS way to win the fight. For instance skoria, I have had lucky procs where it kills the enemy as I am on literally 600 health, but times where it hardly procs at all. I don't like having fights won because of a virtual coin toss.
I would rather a whole new proc revamp where they have a 100% chance if a certain requirement is met. I.e. every 25 dot ticks for skoria. (5s with 5 dots.) then remove the arbitrary CDs. The stronger the effect, the harder to proc. Like zaan would be every 10 light attacks. (Not reproccing whilst active) stopping ganks and requiring timing.
There is also the idea that proc damage should scale, making them ineffective on tanks, but remain as effective for damage builds/PvE that make that sacrifice I also vote yes to that.
Earthgore has a 35 second cd. You people are talking about the long cd of Zaan. Earthgore cd is twice as long. Of course thats what the clueless person who designed the set was thinking. Long cd, very powerful effect, plenty of time in between to kill therefore balanced. Of course in PVP isnt just a 1v1 controlled environment. There are multiple different scenarios with a lot of things going and such ridiculously powerful effects will most likely be completely out of control in some scenarios i.e multiple people using it and making groups immortal.
But when it comes to Zaan of course the person using the set doesnt do anything else, they dont move, they dont gap close, they dont cc, they dont do anything, suddenly mobility is so good and breaking the beam is so easy even tho ironically everyone is complaining about snares, roots and not being able to move, including you, you are never outnumbered and you are generally always in a controlled environment where the set looks balanced.
See, i dont disagree with you in terms of proc conditions. There should be clear proc conditions that can be controlled. But the major difference between me and you is that i still have some sort of limits of what is considered actually balanced no matter what the proc conditions are or how long the cd is. Ridiculously powerful effects will always be OP. You somehow believe that a two piece set that does as much dmg as 2-3 of ur dots combined is somehow balanced. And then you are obviously complaining why ur mDK doesnt get buffed and doesnt have enough dmg. Well wtf did u expect when bs like that exist in the game that do more dmg than ur abilities. The only proc set that is actually balanced in terms of proc conditions, tooltip and skill is eternal hunt. Not just a stupid set doing free dmg.
IIRC Eternal hunt has/had no CD on the root. I have rolled out from it into another and get instarooted. Pls nerf (/s) With earthgore there is a difference between them is that Zaan has a multitude counter. Earthgore does not. The free damage claims make me laugh, you will have to adapt your playstyle and lose another set option to get full use of it. Its only "free damage" because of the lack of scaling and RNG.
I don't use the set, since it doesn't work with my playstyle, and in many comments I say fine, nerf it. (in a way that keeps PvE same) But those complaining like it is OP are stretching, so hard, and refusing to use many counters available. Its not even like dive, which was death for all roll builds bar NB due to its range. A templar can deal with it. A sorc can (to an extent) and a tank can. Really only a squishy warden/DK cannot, and that is down to bad class design. Snares are a problem, yes. But snares won't stop you using purge/cloak/streak, even if the cloak is broken, the beam is gone.
"You are never outnumbered and you are generally always in a controlled environment where the set looks balanced." I play solo, if there are competent players. I will die anyway. If not, I can deal with their zaan by misting. (Literally the only reason I use mist is for damage reduction, I can still be rooted or snared in it due to bugs/GCs) it isn't something like earthgore that will make a weak player into a stronger one, or old soul assault where the ability alone got you stuck and your only counter was heal/block/shield, or reach LOS with the 70% snare. In a duel, MAYBE, its OP, due to the limited space and focus. And not even an OW duel, with too many variables to make it useful. (Swarms, los etc.)
The set is like a less effective meridias. OP in super limited situations like organized duels, where it will just be banned or counted as a cheese win.Edited by ak_pvp on March 1, 2018 1:05PMMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.2 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »zaan is impossible to counter as a stamDK, when your opponent knows what he's doing.
Its not a super overpowered I win button like viper was, but Its still an ''If you don't escape, I win'' button.
And Dk is the worst when it comes to moving out.
Maybe the set is fine and its time to buff Dks, who knows.
But with everything considered this set outperforming my two dots combined, is a little BS.
Its essentially a soul assault that lets you do whatever you want, which makes it stronger than soul assault itself.
If soul assault was breakable by distance, cloak, and purge. (SA isn't even a problem anymore, the 70% death hug it gave you was.)
Yeah, stamDK has little in the way of counter for it, but that doesn't mean we should Nerf everything down to the lowest common denominator,Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
So in like one of the worst case scenarios for the Zaan user with base tooltip, no buffs and not doing anything else its possible to do 8k through block. From a 2 piece set? Doing 8k dmg through block while being naked and unbuffed and not doing anything? And thats balanced? Got to admit. Im speechless.
AHAHAH
8k single target over 5s, through block with a 10m range (easily breakable,) and an 18s cool down.
Aka 2 dots worth. Yes. Balanced.
8k dmg through block without doing absolutely anything and with a completely unbuffed tooltip. Again, 8k dmg through block without doing anything and being basically naked? Balanced indeed. Just so u can understand how ridiculous that is, a few months back we were calling procs that were doing 4k without block OP. Without block Zaan is doing 4k every second completely unbuffed.
Sort of like earthgore is balanced right? It has a very long cooldown and you can kill them in between the procs so the set is balanced....said no sane person ever.
Earthgore is 3s of effective immortality by way of full heal for a group. Zaan is 6s of possible killing against a single person that can be stopped, in many ways. Its all about counterplay. The viper procs did around 4/5k every 4s constistantly and had no way to stop it. Something like selenes can do 12k damage, but is so easily avoided its a null point.
The few issue I have with most procs. Strong or no is that they are RNG, and that is a BS way to win the fight. For instance skoria, I have had lucky procs where it kills the enemy as I am on literally 600 health, but times where it hardly procs at all. I don't like having fights won because of a virtual coin toss.
I would rather a whole new proc revamp where they have a 100% chance if a certain requirement is met. I.e. every 25 dot ticks for skoria. (5s with 5 dots.) then remove the arbitrary CDs. The stronger the effect, the harder to proc. Like zaan would be every 10 light attacks. (Not reproccing whilst active) stopping ganks and requiring timing.
There is also the idea that proc damage should scale, making them ineffective on tanks, but remain as effective for damage builds/PvE that make that sacrifice I also vote yes to that.
Awesome. Every 10 light attacks, so you not only get a second 10k+ assassins will in your face, but zaan too
Was just a suggestion, IIRC gcd is 0.6s, but with how the game works it comes to about 1s between every light attack, (from what I see with NB parses and grim focus talks) and then totaling to a min of 15s as the proc is up the LA doesn't count, This is also assuming all light attacks are perfect, but with real scenarios maybe a few seconds lost among the fight. Elfbane builds also take a hit via way of longer uptime = longer CD.
Its probably to proc before 10 las now. Overall tending towards 5 is the average probability. But 10 would make it enough that its not ganky, and only useful on longer fights, not getting a lucky proc and going back to block, hell even adds counterplay if the LAs are dodged.
12-13 is probably better though.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
Vermintide✭✭✭✭It's strong but so are other proc sets. It's not imbalanced as such, you need to right set of conditions for it to work properly.
Proc sets are still the primary cause of imbalance in PVP, we can't truly fix the class balance while free damage from sets still exists.1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Earthgore is 3s of effective immortality by way of full heal for a group. Zaan is 6s of possible killing against a single person that can be stopped, in many ways. Its all about counterplay. The viper procs did around 4/5k every 4s constistantly and had no way to stop it. Something like selenes can do 12k damage, but is so easily avoided its a null point.
The few issue I have with most procs. Strong or no is that they are RNG, and that is a BS way to win the fight. For instance skoria, I have had lucky procs where it kills the enemy as I am on literally 600 health, but times where it hardly procs at all. I don't like having fights won because of a virtual coin toss.
I would rather a whole new proc revamp where they have a 100% chance if a certain requirement is met. I.e. every 25 dot ticks for skoria. (5s with 5 dots.) then remove the arbitrary CDs. The stronger the effect, the harder to proc. Like zaan would be every 10 light attacks. (Not reproccing whilst active) stopping ganks and requiring timing.
There is also the idea that proc damage should scale, making them ineffective on tanks, but remain as effective for damage builds/PvE that make that sacrifice I also vote yes to that.
Earthgore has a 35 second cd. You people are talking about the long cd of Zaan. Earthgore cd is twice as long. Of course thats what the clueless person who designed the set was thinking. Long cd, very powerful effect, plenty of time in between to kill therefore balanced. Of course in PVP isnt just a 1v1 controlled environment. There are multiple different scenarios with a lot of things going and such ridiculously powerful effects will most likely be completely out of control in some scenarios i.e multiple people using it and making groups immortal.
But when it comes to Zaan of course the person using the set doesnt do anything else, they dont move, they dont gap close, they dont cc, they dont do anything, suddenly mobility is so good and breaking the beam is so easy even tho ironically everyone is complaining about snares, roots and not being able to move, including you, you are never outnumbered and you are generally always in a controlled environment where the set looks balanced.
See, i dont disagree with you in terms of proc conditions. There should be clear proc conditions that can be controlled. But the major difference between me and you is that i still have some sort of limits of what is considered actually balanced no matter what the proc conditions are or how long the cd is. Ridiculously powerful effects will always be OP. You somehow believe that a two piece set that does as much dmg as 2-3 of ur dots combined is somehow balanced. And then you are obviously complaining why ur mDK doesnt get buffed and doesnt have enough dmg. Well wtf did u expect when bs like that exist in the game that do more dmg than ur abilities. The only proc set that is actually balanced in terms of proc conditions, tooltip and skill is eternal hunt. Not just a stupid set doing free dmg.
IIRC Eternal hunt has/had no CD on the root. I have rolled out from it into another and get instarooted. Pls nerf (/s) With earthgore there is a difference between them is that Zaan has a multitude counter. Earthgore does not. The free damage claims make me laugh, you will have to adapt your playstyle and lose another set option to get full use of it. Its only "free damage" because of the lack of scaling and RNG.
I don't use the set, since it doesn't work with my playstyle, and in many comments I say fine, nerf it. (in a way that keeps PvE same) But those complaining like it is OP are stretching, so hard, and refusing to use many counters available. Its not even like dive, which was death for all roll builds bar NB due to its range. A templar can deal with it. A sorc can (to an extent) and a tank can. Really only a squishy warden/DK cannot, and that is down to bad class design. Snares are a problem, yes. But snares won't stop you using purge/cloak/streak, even if the cloak is broken, the beam is gone.
"You are never outnumbered and you are generally always in a controlled environment where the set looks balanced." I play solo, if there are competent players. I will die anyway. If not, I can deal with their zaan by misting. (Literally the only reason I use mist is for damage reduction, I can still be rooted or snared in it due to bugs/GCs) it isn't something like earthgore that will make a weak player into a stronger one, or old soul assault where the ability alone got you stuck and your only counter was heal/block/shield, or reach LOS with the 70% snare. In a duel, MAYBE, its OP, due to the limited space and focus. And not even an OW duel, with too many variables to make it useful. (Swarms, los etc.)
The set is like a less effective meridias. OP in super limited situations like organized duels, where it will just be banned or counted as a cheese win.
I said eternal hunt is balanced. Read again. Your first line seems like an attempt to discredit people with the common nonsense that everyone use like "pls nerf it kills me" when it was blatantly clear that this is not even the point. Was a nice attempt tho.
Its absolutely free dmg. Even with the counters u will always take dmg before you break the beam. Costs you absolutely nothing therefore free dmg. And it absolutely can make a weak player better like every other proc set we had. The potential dmg of the set is beyond ridiculous. You literally said before that its a zergling set. And you also literally just said that not everyone can break the beam so i guess those guys are boned. Get your 20-30k Zaan recap guys by someone who light attacked you. Indeed balanced and not OP at all. You are all just bad and the guy who killed you is obviously very skilled with light attacks. Logic of ESO PVP these days is becoming "if you dont run away from my set you deserve to die".
But its ok now i understand why you consider it balanced. You have the same logic with wrobel and his poisons. "If im outnumbered and ill probably die anw who cares how i die. Lets abuse everyone with every bs mechanic and set in the game because they would die anw" No wonder we are in this state. Unfortunately under these conditions everything is balanced including earthgore. You would die to a skilled group anw so it doesnt matter if they are immune to death. Earthgore balanced.
Edited by pieratsos on March 1, 2018 4:07PM4 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
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I like how your scenario involves a zaan user that does nothing at all other than proc it. Such a realistic image you are portraying. GL healing through that *** when you are feared and incapped and have to deal with major defile + 20% more damage received among other debuffs and dots. Which isn't at all hard to do for mag/stamblades. This set is just pure cheese. I don't see why people feel the need to even defend it. I mean do you really need this much damage from a 2 piece in order to kill someone?Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
In the time it takes for a Zaan proc to finish, a person can get off a full combo. Given that Reverb, heavy attack, dawnbreaker, reverse slice is already going to kill someone, the damage from Zaan becomes redundant there, and you could replace it with literally any other monster set in the game and have nothing change.
On the other hand, if the person is entirely focused on locking you down and staying on top of you with their build, then they deal pretty much no damage without Zaan, and thus cannot fight multiple opponents or have have a chance at getting a kill combo more than once every 18 seconds.
It's one of the first thing that I found when I tried the set out. Zaan doesn't get you very many kills. Over 10 battlegrounds matches with the set, I think there were two or three instances where I killed someone I otherwise wouldn't have because of a Zaan proc. Blood Spawn or Troll King would have been far more useful. Even Selenes or Velidreth probably would have netted me more kills.
Except zaan, at worst, offers the best area denial available in game at the cost of only a 2pc set. That alone is very, very strong and arguably unbalanced...
Honestly, I'd rather see more sets that actually change fight dynamics. That being said, I still want to see the range on Zaan cut, if only to make the counterplay to the set blatantly obvious.
Fixing the LoS bug and A 25-30% damage nerf would be the proper balance move imo. This still gives you more overall damage than any proc set during its proc and maintains the same counterplay while dropping it’s killing potential and maintaining usefulness as both an area denial and additional pressure during a burst phase.
Reducing the range needed to escape it does nothing to lower it’s killing power in the situations where it’s currently unbalanced(any spec that builds specifically for zaan). However, reducing its range eliminates some of the nice area denial utility it offers while still leaving it in a crazy lethal state, I believe this is undesirable since the fringe cases that are out of balance will remain as such while the majority of zaan users will see its effectiveness drop.Edited by Lexxypwns on March 1, 2018 4:07PM3 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
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Again you are describing a scenario where the zaan user isn't dynamic. He isn't just gonna let you hammer him with full combo's. Besides, its more than likely you will not even have time to do such a combo because the zaan proc forces you to be on the defensive or you will be trying to get away from the zaan user in order to break the chain. Not to mention gap closer, root and snare spam, which are all very prevalent in for example BG's, will prevent you to counter it like that. Not all fights are 1v1. This set just offers way too much bang for your buck. You not getting the kills is more a case of bad luck than the set not lethal. If it procs at the right time and you cc and ult at the same time, its R.I.P.
I like how your scenario involves a zaan user that does nothing at all other than proc it. Such a realistic image you are portraying. GL healing through that *** when you are feared and incapped and have to deal with major defile + 20% more damage received among other debuffs and dots. Which isn't at all hard to do for mag/stamblades. This set is just pure cheese. I don't see why people feel the need to even defend it. I mean do you really need this much damage from a 2 piece in order to kill someone?Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
In the time it takes for a Zaan proc to finish, a person can get off a full combo. Given that Reverb, heavy attack, dawnbreaker, reverse slice is already going to kill someone, the damage from Zaan becomes redundant there, and you could replace it with literally any other monster set in the game and have nothing change.
On the other hand, if the person is entirely focused on locking you down and staying on top of you with their build, then they deal pretty much no damage without Zaan, and thus cannot fight multiple opponents or have have a chance at getting a kill combo more than once every 18 seconds.
It's one of the first thing that I found when I tried the set out. Zaan doesn't get you very many kills. Over 10 battlegrounds matches with the set, I think there were two or three instances where I killed someone I otherwise wouldn't have because of a Zaan proc. Blood Spawn or Troll King would have been far more useful. Even Selenes or Velidreth probably would have netted me more kills.0 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
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Again you are describing a scenario where the zaan user isn't dynamic. He isn't just gonna let you hammer him with full combo's. Besides, its more than likely you will not even have time to do such a combo because the zaan proc forces you to be on the defensive or you will be trying to get away from the zaan user in order to break the chain. Not to mention gap closer, root and snare spam, which are all very prevalent in for example BG's, will prevent you to counter it like that. Not all fights are 1v1. This set just offers way too much bang for your buck. You not getting the kills is more a case of bad luck than the set not lethal. If it procs at the right time and you cc and ult at the same time, its R.I.P.
I like how your scenario involves a zaan user that does nothing at all other than proc it. Such a realistic image you are portraying. GL healing through that *** when you are feared and incapped and have to deal with major defile + 20% more damage received among other debuffs and dots. Which isn't at all hard to do for mag/stamblades. This set is just pure cheese. I don't see why people feel the need to even defend it. I mean do you really need this much damage from a 2 piece in order to kill someone?Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
In the time it takes for a Zaan proc to finish, a person can get off a full combo. Given that Reverb, heavy attack, dawnbreaker, reverse slice is already going to kill someone, the damage from Zaan becomes redundant there, and you could replace it with literally any other monster set in the game and have nothing change.
On the other hand, if the person is entirely focused on locking you down and staying on top of you with their build, then they deal pretty much no damage without Zaan, and thus cannot fight multiple opponents or have have a chance at getting a kill combo more than once every 18 seconds.
It's one of the first thing that I found when I tried the set out. Zaan doesn't get you very many kills. Over 10 battlegrounds matches with the set, I think there were two or three instances where I killed someone I otherwise wouldn't have because of a Zaan proc. Blood Spawn or Troll King would have been far more useful. Even Selenes or Velidreth probably would have netted me more kills.
But that holds true with any damage based proc set. Selene is a perfect example of this, or Velidreth. And need I get into detail about Nightblades who abuse this?
You all crack me up. Seriously. It’s totally okay for Nightblades to run around melting people in fractions of a second, leaving to no room for counter play in the slightest from the amount of obnoxiously high burst you’re hit with. But, Zaan is something with a myriad of counters and checks, and suddenly it’s the most unhealthy thing in ESO’s PvP to date. Just listen to yourselves. You find Zaan wrong, but find: Velidreth, Selene, Earthgore, Troll King, etc. right. You find Zaan to do too much damage, but not these Master Axe bleed builds annihilating people okay. You guys are definitely an odd bunch.0 -
Vermintide✭✭✭✭Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »Blobs is running Zaan with 5 wizards front bar 5 lich back bar on a mageblade. The entire premise of the build is building as much sustain and survival as possible while relying on Zaan for burst.
Lots of people don't like the guy but I think it's pretty well known that he's good at PvP.
He stole my build, the prick!
Joking, of course, but running Zaan with Wizard's Riposte and a sustain set is exactly what I've been doing since I got my hands on it.0 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Vermintide wrote: »Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »Blobs is running Zaan with 5 wizards front bar 5 lich back bar on a mageblade. The entire premise of the build is building as much sustain and survival as possible while relying on Zaan for burst.
Lots of people don't like the guy but I think it's pretty well known that he's good at PvP.
He stole my build, the prick!
Joking, of course, but running Zaan with Wizard's Riposte and a sustain set is exactly what I've been doing since I got my hands on it.
Shadow image is fixed and you’re building around a 5 second burst window, I don’t think the defensive set is needed0 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The real question is who did you fight OP?
A lot of different people. I don’t sit and write down people’s names, and or memorize the names of people I engage in combat with. Not in Cyrodiil, not in Battlegrounds, and not in duels. If they have Zaan, I treat it just as if they had on Grothdarr or any other damage-oriented set. I do a special thing called “adapting”.0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Im about to try and pay some good players to group up to get the helm, this PuG #$&+ is for the birds, and apparently I play later than my guilds.0 -
Sixty5✭✭✭✭✭
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Again you are describing a scenario where the zaan user isn't dynamic. He isn't just gonna let you hammer him with full combo's. Besides, its more than likely you will not even have time to do such a combo because the zaan proc forces you to be on the defensive or you will be trying to get away from the zaan user in order to break the chain. Not to mention gap closer, root and snare spam, which are all very prevalent in for example BG's, will prevent you to counter it like that. Not all fights are 1v1. This set just offers way too much bang for your buck. You not getting the kills is more a case of bad luck than the set not lethal. If it procs at the right time and you cc and ult at the same time, its R.I.P.
I like how your scenario involves a zaan user that does nothing at all other than proc it. Such a realistic image you are portraying. GL healing through that *** when you are feared and incapped and have to deal with major defile + 20% more damage received among other debuffs and dots. Which isn't at all hard to do for mag/stamblades. This set is just pure cheese. I don't see why people feel the need to even defend it. I mean do you really need this much damage from a 2 piece in order to kill someone?Zaan is a set where it looks disgusting when you do the math, buy then you do more math, and it turns out that it isn't that bad.
3440 base damage ticks 6 times for a total of 1350% of base damage, or 46440 damage.
Battle spirit drops this to 23220, which is still massive. But this is pre-mitigation.
Lets assume you have 30% effective mitigation vs a Zaan user.
Eating a full proc will result in you taking 16245 damage. But if you block, that's going to get cut in half, to about 8122 damage, over 5 seconds.
You can heal through that.
What's more, if you break the tether before the last two ticks, still assumimg 30% damage reduction, you are only taking 8428 damage, without the need to block.
At this point, Zaan is being mitigated by a single cadt of Vigor, or two hardened wards. Which means, if you are dying to a Zaan user, you are either standing still like a potato, or you are eating a full combo from them in addition to the proc. In which case they probably would have got the kill anyway.
In the time it takes for a Zaan proc to finish, a person can get off a full combo. Given that Reverb, heavy attack, dawnbreaker, reverse slice is already going to kill someone, the damage from Zaan becomes redundant there, and you could replace it with literally any other monster set in the game and have nothing change.
On the other hand, if the person is entirely focused on locking you down and staying on top of you with their build, then they deal pretty much no damage without Zaan, and thus cannot fight multiple opponents or have have a chance at getting a kill combo more than once every 18 seconds.
It's one of the first thing that I found when I tried the set out. Zaan doesn't get you very many kills. Over 10 battlegrounds matches with the set, I think there were two or three instances where I killed someone I otherwise wouldn't have because of a Zaan proc. Blood Spawn or Troll King would have been far more useful. Even Selenes or Velidreth probably would have netted me more kills.
1v1 is literally the best case for Zaan. If a Zaan user is outnumbered then his big damage dealer is on a long cooldown, can't hit multiple people, and requires complete focus fire.
If the person facing a Zaan user is outnumbered, then they would be at a disadvantage anyway, and the outcome matters more about how well they can kite out their opponents, which, what do you know, is Zaans biggest weakness.
In chaotic fights with equal numbers, Zaan is pretty much useless. It becomes increasingly difficult to actually stick on an opponent to get the full value of the proc.
My experience with Zaan tended to be that it would proc off the single heavy I'd do while turtling waiting for an ult resulting in the proc being wasted.
Any procs during a kill combo felt like nothing, simply because I'd have enough damage to secure the kill anyway.
In a brawl where you are fishing for a combo is about the only time the set can do something interesting. But the issue here is any time you get a proc vs a competent player, they go defensive or break the tether, resetting the fight. Vs a trash player who sits there and eats the beam, sure you'll pick up an easy kill. But then again, trash players are pretty much always easy kills.
Zaan only becomes a strong tool once you start to build around it, sacrificing your own damage for sticking power via gear or abilities, and in that case you will very rarely get kills without it.Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.
I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds1
This discussion has been closed.