Why Can’t We Have Our Class Identities Back?

Vahrokh · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Don't confuse "class identity" with "ability monopoly". You're wanting each class to do something the others can't, that's a monopoly. Class identity means something unique that sets a class' playstyle and feel apart from others.

The class identities are still intact:
Dragon knight: wings, claws, talonz, fire breath
Sorceror: summoned daedra, raw magic (overload)
Templar: auras, healing, glowing spears
Night blade: stealth/invisibility, life draining
Warden: nature magic, animal pets, ice magic

You skillfully dodged class signatures. Crystal frags for years has been sorcs main class signature spell. Now it's gone, poof, made useless. The other, "strongly suggested" morph, sucks even harder so nobody uses it either.
"Blinking", a "mage" signature in every possible game (not just MMOs), has been transformed in "somewhat long jump". And so on.

On the other side, they desperately retain complete trash mechanics, like "shield stacking".

Vahrokh · February 2018

RavenSworn wrote: »

This thread seems like a nerf nightblade thread. And I'm disappointed with that. Here's my two cents though.

Class identity was lost because players wanted it. It wasn't because ZoS wanted to change it to three distinct skill lines within the class or what not, it was just simply players wanted what the other classes had for their class.

Players wanted to have for the nb, the sorcs and the Templar what the dk had for tanking. They wanted what the Templar had for healing. There wasn't any room for diversity because everyone had to follow a certain playstyle for the group, hence 'meta'.

...

In the end, it's our own choices made.

Game designers don't work in a democracy (modern, awful democracy, that is), where "polls" and "voter preference" completely dictate what the "leader" decide.

Leaders are meant to lead and to make choices (and live with the consequences), not to trail behind every dude's "likes" on a social.

A game that gets a plain, mudded mess of bland boredom, in the long run suffers more than one that promotes a "style of life" and sticks through it. There are otherwise "less than awesome" MMOs that have born on 2003 and still go on today, because they picked a line and stayed consistent with it.

Feanor · February 2018

I think the community is as much to blame as ZOS. At least on the forum you have the common opinion that every class should be competetive in each of the 3 roles.

Remember when a lot of people were complaining about the Templar monopoly on healing? Now Repentance is gutted and Spears are just a different form of Orbs. It’s the same for many other iconic class skills.

“Play as you want” was one of the biggest mistakes ever made. If you have the task to somehow make a Sorc Tank or a DK healer work because there are people complaining about being refused in Dungeon groups you come up with solutions outside class skills.

It’s easier to achieve that if you homogenize the classes. So the distinct features each class had get replaced by skills that essentially do the same and only have different animations and names.

Frankly, I’d rather have classes being powerful in their own thing, which then makes them fun to play. If everything is more or less the same it gets boring, at least to me.

Azurya · February 2018

@Ch4mpTW awesome thread, and you have my full support on this, and already read some very good ideas!

yes it is about time we go to some more diversity then just tank, healer and DD!
I love it!

Vahrokh · February 2018

Feanor wrote: »

“Play as you want” was one of the biggest mistakes ever made.

We talk about class signatures.

Well, the above "Play as you want" is a "game company" signature. People play Bethesda / ZOS games because of the lore and because of the "play as you want" approach.

So, it's totally "normal" that they promise a MMO title based on the Elders Scrolls IP and that follows the "play as you want" philosophy.

What happened, is that ZOS found out that staying true to "play as you want", requires a permanent AAA development team. This stuff is expensive.

So they went the easy way out: instead of delivering "play as you want", they went "everyone smells the same" so every choice you make is useless: you end up playing some streamlined, copycat class and spec regardless.

Ch4mpTW · February 2018

Azurya wrote: »

@Ch4mpTW awesome thread, and you have my full support on this, and already read some very good ideas!

yes it is about time we go to some more diversity then just tank, healer and DD!
I love it!

Thank you. Much appreciated.

Vahrokh wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

“Play as you want” was one of the biggest mistakes ever made.

We talk about class signatures.

Well, the above "Play as you want" is a "game company" signature. People play Bethesda / ZOS games because of the lore and because of the "play as you want" approach.

So, it's totally "normal" that they promise a MMO title based on the Elders Scrolls IP and that follows the "play as you want" philosophy.

What happened, is that ZOS found out that staying true to "play as you want", requires a permanent AAA development team. This stuff is expensive.

So they went the easy way out: instead of delivering "play as you want", they went "everyone smells the same" so every choice you make is useless: you end up playing some streamlined, copycat class and spec regardless.

Bingo. You nailed it perfectly.

idk · February 2018

Got lost. After second paragraph I could not see where this was going because it seemed other classes do have special abilities still but that was not what OP is talking about. Maybe a TL:DR at the end for those that could not find the meaning of the post in the early paragraphs.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Don't confuse "class identity" with "ability monopoly". You're wanting each class to do something the others can't, that's a monopoly. Class identity means something unique that sets a class' playstyle and feel apart from others.

The class identities are still intact:
Dragon knight: wings, claws, talonz, fire breath
Sorceror: summoned daedra, raw magic (overload)
Templar: auras, healing, glowing spears
Night blade: stealth/invisibility, life draining
Warden: nature magic, animal pets, ice magic

You skillfully dodged class signatures. Crystal frags for years has been sorcs main class signature spell. Now it's gone, poof, made useless. The other, "strongly suggested" morph, sucks even harder so nobody uses it either.
"Blinking", a "mage" signature in every possible game (not just MMOs), has been transformed in "somewhat long jump". And so on.

On the other side, they desperately retain complete trash mechanics, like "shield stacking".

Crystal frags has never been in any other elder scrolls game, nor has any kind of blink. The idea that these were class defining abilities for the Sorceror is a player created concept and one still pushed by players who can't handle the fact that balance changes constantly in online games and just because something works one month doesn't mean it will the next.

Daedric summoning and wards, however, have been a "mage" staple in just about every elder scrolls game prior to this one.

It seems to me you only define signature skills as what you want to be signature skills, not what actually pertains to the game content.

LordSemaj · February 2018

The OP is correct. In the quest for balance, identity has been sacrificed. This is becoming increasingly common in MMOs, to the point that you're really only choosing what color you want your DPS to be. It'll still be basically the same amount, survival, utility, and rotation as every other.

All because people can't stand the idea that someone else can be better at a particular thing than they, or that facing a certain class in PVP means you are royally screwed. Heck, even builds get nerfed because people get hard countered and resort to demanding the build be nerfed rather than having specialists in your team that can deal with it.

Specialization itself is dead. Long live Homogenization. In a game like EQ or WoW, you're not going to be soloing dungeons because only a healer can keep someone alive, only a tank can last more than a second against elite mobs, and only a DPS can do more than tickle a boss. Yet in ESO, we have tank-healer-nukers who can solo vet dungeons. VMA is even built on the concept of solo play, you can't just be a tank or a healer anymore, you have to be all three on the same character build.

I wonder if these new gamers would value the same changes made to their FPS games. Shotguns are too OP at close range so we're going to nerf the damage, buff their effective range, and make them fully automatic. Sniper rifles are too OP at long range so we're going to remove the scope, make them semi-automatic, and cut the damage in half. SMGs do about the same damage as Assault Rifles now at every range bracket but they have slightly better accuracy when moving while rifles have slightly better accuracy standing still.

...sound familiar? Bring back rocket launchers that one shot people even if you only hit the ground three feet away from them.

Kodrac · February 2018

They homogenized the classes too much through nerfs. They listened to too much "why can they do that and I can't" whines. Now they've lost all sense of uniqueness and identity. They're pretty much all the same now. A DK's bar looks like single taget, aoe, aoe, temp buff, perm buff. A sorc's bar the same, a templar's the same, a warden's..... And that's regardless of magicka or stamina. One uses fire and the other electricity, another green mist for flavor but otherwise all the same.

I'd love some diversity again. Let them all have something that sets them apart.

EDIT: And I forgot to mention a lack of class diversity limits replayability and increases boredom which will eventually lead to population drops.

DMuehlhausen · February 2018

Cause everyone is a winner and should get a participation trophy and not made to feel like they stand out from the crowd.

VDoom1 · February 2018

Very nice post, and I agree. I made my first character back in 2014 and that was a Dragonknight. Just looking back to those days, how the Dragonknight was back then, one felt kind of unstoppable. Like a train just going full speed ahead, nothing or not much could stop it. Now.....not terrible no but they feel..."weaker."

My second character was a Nightblade. I can see where you are getting at with them. They still have that spark. That stealth and super dps in 2 seconds about them. Not to much have changed with them.

I agree that some classes have lost their touch. Perhaps Zenimax nerfed one thing to much. I wouldn't mind if they took a close look at each class again. Really sat down and analyzed everything. Make each class unique again.

Katahdin · February 2018

StamDK lost its class identity when they changed all the stam morphs of DK skills to mag so that only about 2-3 use stam now out of 30+

Stam sorc has enough stam morph choices that make it feel still unique from other stam classes and from its magicka counterpart.

NB also has good diversity between both versions (stam vs mag) and other classes

Stamplar could use a couple more stam morph options but is different enough from MPlar and other stam classes.

Joy_Division · February 2018

I agree.

Except Nightblades also have had much of their identity gutted. Go and try and play a "sap" tank and tell me otherwise.

Oh, I also don't think the blame lies squarely with ZoS developers. Nope. The community and the constant "nerf this, I died to it" ego-saving mentality of the community is equally if not more responsible. Zos is a business and thus must cater to customer feedback, much of which amounts to "nerf everything except my class."

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Katahdin wrote: »

StamDK lost its class identity when they changed all the stam morphs of DK skills to mag so that only about 2-3 use stam now out of 30+

Stam sorc has enough stam morph choices that make it feel still unique from other stam classes and from its magicka counterpart.

NB also has good diversity between both versions (stam vs mag) and other classes

Stamplar could use a couple more stam morph options but is different enough from MPlar and other stam classes.

What are you talking about? Dk never had any additioal stamina morphs over what they have now. Its always just been the 3 (venomous claw, noxious breath, and corrosive armor) - the only change to those was making them poison and adding new visual effects.

Stamsorc actually has less, unless you count dark deal as a "stamina morph" - they only get hurricane and bound armaments, the latter being a toggles passive.

Stamplar has biting jabs, javelin, and power of the light, three morphs same as the above.

Night blade has killers blade, ambush, surprise attack, power extraction, and grim focus- a few more than others, but they've also always been viewed as primarily a melee fighter and magblade has only become a thing more recently.

Wardens are on about the same level as the others as well with one stam heal and two offensive abilities (cliff racer and sub assault).

Kodrac · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

What are you talking about?

Yeah that guy's a bit off. Originally every class skill was magicka. Which was why you had DKs in dresses and shields everywhere. It wasn't until the third or fourth big patch that they added a few stam morphs for classes to synergize with weapon skills.

Lysette · February 2018

Without to negate what you people said before - this is actually what asking for "balance" is getting you - there are no real distinctions between the classes anymore, all can do pretty much the same or in a similar way with skills, which have different names, but fulfill basically the same functionality - if you really want diversity, you have to ditch "balance" - to be different is not any near to be much alike - and balance is more towards "much alike" than to be "different".

Minno · February 2018

Templar's main strength was the ability to blind your enemy while boosting your defenses while attacking them.

Granted miss chance was broken OP (50% to miss your attack). But we got a ranged execute which really wasn't needed. Templars can retain their unique style of tanking, if they can stop over designing eclipse, give templars minor expedition, snare immunity and minor evasion, redesign sweeps to be competitive DMG, and a form of unblockable cc (or keep the eclipse redirect DMG being cc immunity, but grant better buffs/debuffs to compensate plus make additional DMG unblockable like burning light).

Till then, they will always be shackled to the healbot builds that are competitive in group environments.

LeagueTroll · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Don't confuse "class identity" with "ability monopoly". You're wanting each class to do something the others can't, that's a monopoly. Class identity means something unique that sets a class' playstyle and feel apart from others.

The class identities are still intact:
Dragon knight: wings, claws, talonz, fire breath
Sorceror: summoned daedra, raw magic (overload)
Templar: auras, healing, glowing spears
Night blade: stealth/invisibility, life draining
Warden: nature magic, animal pets, ice magic

I agree, other than stam sorc, everything seem to have a clear identity to me.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Don't confuse "class identity" with "ability monopoly". You're wanting each class to do something the others can't, that's a monopoly. Class identity means something unique that sets a class' playstyle and feel apart from others.

The class identities are still intact:
Dragon knight: wings, claws, talonz, fire breath
Sorceror: summoned daedra, raw magic (overload)
Templar: auras, healing, glowing spears
Night blade: stealth/invisibility, life draining
Warden: nature magic, animal pets, ice magic

I agree, other than stam sorc, everything seem to have a clear identity to me.

Most stam builds still give up most class identity to focus on weapons anyways. I would say stamsorc has identity as an aoe melee class at least due to hurricane.

LordSemaj · February 2018

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Don't confuse "class identity" with "ability monopoly". You're wanting each class to do something the others can't, that's a monopoly. Class identity means something unique that sets a class' playstyle and feel apart from others.

The class identities are still intact:
Dragon knight: wings, claws, talonz, fire breath
Sorceror: summoned daedra, raw magic (overload)
Templar: auras, healing, glowing spears
Night blade: stealth/invisibility, life draining
Warden: nature magic, animal pets, ice magic

I agree, other than stam sorc, everything seem to have a clear identity to me.

That's if you look at the class as a whole instead of what players are actually using.

Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, PVP skills like Caltrops and Vigor, Weapon skills, have all been replacing class dependence to the point that if you have more than 1-2 class skills on your bar you're probably playing some weird build.

Stam Sorc, funnily enough, is one of the few builds that actually makes ample use of class skills and would therefore have MORE of a class identity than others.

Ley · February 2018

I've thought about the lack of class identity before. I've considered class specific sets as a possible solution. Sets that change the way some of the class skills work. Eventually have one for each of the three class skill trees for every class. The sets could create synergies between different class skills, add additional effects to skills, change the way skills behave, give a passive bonus depending on what skills you have on your bar, ect... They could use these sets to make underused skills more desirable or to give back a more unique feeling to playing a particular class.

Vermintide · February 2018

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Only Nightblades for the most part truly retained their sense of self identity.

That's because when the only "identity" we really had to begin with was invisibility, they couldn't find much to take away from us.

pieratsos · February 2018

RavenSworn wrote: »

Class identity was lost because players wanted it. It wasn't because ZoS wanted to change it to three distinct skill lines within the class or what not, it was just simply players wanted what the other classes had for their class.

Class identity was lost because of CP, itemization and lack of softcaps. CP and itemization (after 1T) give so much power and classes had to pay for it by having their abilities gutted just to maintain balance. Power shifted from classes to CP and itemization. People dont want to gut the classes. They just want balance (at least those that actually care for it and dont just want their own class to be OP).

Lack of softcaps also created issues. While very harsh softcaps are not good, completely removing them is also bad and abilities had to pay for it because people can make overly specialized builds. Classic example is blazing shield. It was bad enough that the ability became almost useless for any normal templar after battle spirit which was a result of the lack of softcaps. Then you had niche specialized templars with 80k+ hp "abusing" its mechanics (cause again lack of softcaps) and what did they do? They nerfed the ability again and now a once unique class ability is prety much completely and utterly useless.

pieratsos · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Don't confuse "class identity" with "ability monopoly". You're wanting each class to do something the others can't, that's a monopoly. Class identity means something unique that sets a class' playstyle and feel apart from others.

The class identities are still intact:
Dragon knight: wings, claws, talonz, fire breath
Sorceror: summoned daedra, raw magic (overload)
Templar: auras, healing, glowing spears
Night blade: stealth/invisibility, life draining
Warden: nature magic, animal pets, ice magic

You skillfully dodged class signatures. Crystal frags for years has been sorcs main class signature spell. Now it's gone, poof, made useless. The other, "strongly suggested" morph, sucks even harder so nobody uses it either.
"Blinking", a "mage" signature in every possible game (not just MMOs), has been transformed in "somewhat long jump". And so on.

On the other side, they desperately retain complete trash mechanics, like "shield stacking".

Crystal frags has never been in any other elder scrolls game, nor has any kind of blink. The idea that these were class defining abilities for the Sorceror is a player created concept and one still pushed by players who can't handle the fact that balance changes constantly in online games and just because something works one month doesn't mean it will the next.

Daedric summoning and wards, however, have been a "mage" staple in just about every elder scrolls game prior to this one.

It seems to me you only define signature skills as what you want to be signature skills, not what actually pertains to the game content.

Crystal frags was absolutely a sorc signature skill. It seems that you define signature skills based on lore or other ES games, but not actually on this game and how the class is played. Anyone who has knowledge about PVP sorcs understands that frags was a signature and class defining skill. That became very clear after the cc removal. The vast majority of sorcs switched to master reach even tho it requires you to use a specific weapon. And they did that just so they can maintain a similar functionality (cc attached to their burst) instead of actually using the cc of their own class (rune cage).

exeeter702 · February 2018

There is a lot of sensationalism going on in this thread.

Class design in mmos is not about classes having exclusive access to certain utilities at a fundamental level. It is not about the have and have nots. Its about class x differing from class y both thematically and in what way they achieve viability in role a, b or c via execution and class mechanics. If a class has a unique function is fine so long as it doesnt create a situation where said function's existence entirely invalidates other classes in any given role which was absolutley the case for the logest time. Eso effectively has 10 classes and having ONLY mag templar as the choice for healing or stam DK for tanking. That is down right awful and a completely wasted opprotunity. One that zos has actively been trying to address.

Thematically however, class identity is as true now as it has ever been.

LordSemaj · February 2018

Class identity was lost because class abilities were made inferior to non-class abilities except for the ones that had near identical effects. Every time they release new skills, old ones are replaced because the new ones have to be "better" to sell them as a feature instead of a pointless addition that no one will ever use. Case in point, destro ults are on every mage now where once it held a class ability. This is not because of CP or itemization or anything else. It was because destro ults are flat out better than every class ult for dealing damage. Negate is gone, only used as an offbar pvp thing, replaced by something better just as Flawless Dawnbreaker was the mainstay of every stamina build, while Meteor is there for single target mages.

Class abilities are either direct improvements of existing non-class abilities or they are utility that rounds out a build. In all other cases, they are inferior to non-class abilities that can perform the role better. Class abilities were originally designed to be hybrid because classes were hybrid themselves, and every ability reflected that by having a complicated nature to its usage. But in a mono-resource system, versatility is meaningless and non-class skills so much more focused than class skills. Every nerf, like the crystal frag one, eliminates another possible class skill and replaces it with its non-class variant, as reach did.

Izaki · February 2018

Are you ever going to stop with the all too dramatic posts that are way too long for the point they are making?

Rohamad_Ali · February 2018

Returning signature abilities and adding softcaps to avoid them becoming OP is what I'm all for . Use to be able to create some decent hybrids back then . I remember Jack Daniels surprising me many times when VR16 was cap .

exeeter702 · February 2018

Izaki wrote: »

Are you ever going to stop with the all too dramatic posts that are way too long for the point they are making?

Agreed.