Why Can’t We Have Our Class Identities Back?

exeeter702

AllPlayAndNoWork wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

The only identities are healer, tank, damage.

There are no templars, nightblades, sorcerers, dragonknights, or wardens.

IMO this was all down to the early days of ESO when everyone was whinging and wanted every class to be DPS, tank or healer. And i think the game slowly dies a little more at each update as a consequence.

When your mmo has only 4 core classes that split into 8 between mag and stam, and relgating only a single one of them to healer and tank and the rest dps, you have a very real diversity problem.

dazee

exeeter702 wrote: »

AllPlayAndNoWork wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

The only identities are healer, tank, damage.

There are no templars, nightblades, sorcerers, dragonknights, or wardens.

IMO this was all down to the early days of ESO when everyone was whinging and wanted every class to be DPS, tank or healer. And i think the game slowly dies a little more at each update as a consequence.

When your mmo has only 4 core classes that split into 8 between mag and stam, and relgating only a single one of them to healer and tank and the rest dps, you have a very real diversity problem.

The trinity itself is hurting this game. There could be so much more diversity in how roles work, another game has already proven that works well, yet nobody copies its success.

exeeter702

dazee wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

AllPlayAndNoWork wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

The only identities are healer, tank, damage.

There are no templars, nightblades, sorcerers, dragonknights, or wardens.

IMO this was all down to the early days of ESO when everyone was whinging and wanted every class to be DPS, tank or healer. And i think the game slowly dies a little more at each update as a consequence.

When your mmo has only 4 core classes that split into 8 between mag and stam, and relgating only a single one of them to healer and tank and the rest dps, you have a very real diversity problem.

The trinity itself is hurting this game. There could be so much more diversity in how roles work, another game has already proven that works well, yet nobody copies its success.

You are talking about a complete overhaul of eso at a foundational level that goes far beyond the scope of this thread. Eso is designed around the trinity, that much needs to be accepted. And no it really isnt holding the game back for how it is specifically designed.

Provide your examples of other mmos that forgo the trinity system entirely so we can have the dialogue (im familiar with which ones just to be clear).

dazee

exeeter702 wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

AllPlayAndNoWork wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

The only identities are healer, tank, damage.

There are no templars, nightblades, sorcerers, dragonknights, or wardens.

IMO this was all down to the early days of ESO when everyone was whinging and wanted every class to be DPS, tank or healer. And i think the game slowly dies a little more at each update as a consequence.

When your mmo has only 4 core classes that split into 8 between mag and stam, and relgating only a single one of them to healer and tank and the rest dps, you have a very real diversity problem.

The trinity itself is hurting this game. There could be so much more diversity in how roles work, another game has already proven that works well, yet nobody copies its success.

You are talking about a complete overhaul of eso at a foundational level that goes far beyond the scope of this thread. Eso is designed around the trinity, that much needs to be accepted. And no it really isnt holding the game back for how it is specifically designed.

Provide your examples of other mmos that forgo the trinity system entirely so we can have the dialogue (im familiar with which ones just to be clear).

I'm not saying that we should entirely forgo role based play, but having it be relegated to "healer, tank, dps" is very limiting and a relic of game design from the 90s. The reason most MMOs still use this system is becuase developers are afraid to do anything different.

But say that support is diversified beyond healing, so you'd have the option to take someone who could buff your defense high enough that you wouldn't need healing, or someone who could cause enemies to lose so much resistance that they'd die faster and thus you'd need less healing and the "Tank" wouldn't be so stressed, or you could have someone who debuffs enemy damage so that more people could handle being hit.

6 roles are better than 3. Tank Healer Dps Buff Debuff Crowd-Control, and combinations of the 6, make for more interesting builds and gameplay than expecting everyone to conform to one of 3 roles.

Twenty0zTsunami

@dazee I would say your remark about the 90s is off by about a decade and a half. I played eq through the late 90s and that game was full of classes that offered support in a variety of ways. It was really WoW that reinforced the trinity around 2004 and later.

dazee

Twenty0zTsunami wrote: »

@dazee I would say your remark about the 90s is off by about a decade and a half. I played eq through the late 90s and that game was full of classes that offered support in a variety of ways. It was really WoW that reinforced the trinity around 2004 and later.

Yeah I guess what I mean is games need to stop copying the big gorrilla in the room and innovate, becuase they'll never be a WoW killer without innovation.

aeowulf

Joy_Division wrote: »

I agree.

Except Nightblades also have had much of their identity gutted. Go and try and play a "sap" tank and tell me otherwise.

Oh, I also don't think the blame lies squarely with ZoS developers. Nope. The community and the constant "nerf this, I died to it" ego-saving mentality of the community is equally if not more responsible. Zos is a business and thus must cater to customer feedback, much of which amounts to "nerf everything except my class."

Exactly this.

Then there are the class/role combos that have never been, like DK healer. ZoS should be looking at vet dungeon finder dungeon completion stats and the relative weights of class/role participating. (normal is no good due to the fake tank thing...) Balanced = close to 20% for each class in each role, irrespective of what people whine about on the forums.

For me, right now it feels like DK/Warden tanks count for 80%+, Templar/Warden healers for 90%+ & DK healers for basically none, ever. These extremes really need to be addressed and this can be checked from reliable internal stats, not numbers whining on the forums. Once you get to those approx 20% each class in each role stats, you can put as much identity in as much as you want. ESO actually feels less balanced now than it did two years ago, a change caused by forum feedback. Back then we actually saw NB tanks (and more sorc/templar in that role)

I think identity of classes comes down to needing to adjust our playstyle a little when you realise you have a certain class in a certain role in your group.

dazee

Other Elder scrolls games didnt have classes and I'd much prefer if that was the case in ESO. but as far as working with what we've got, yes class skills need to be more balanced so that all role combos are viable with all classes. not only that but weapon choices should be balanced so that you dont need sword and board to tank- thats lame and boring.

Avran_Sylt

I'm of the opinion that there really only needs to be class identity at an early stage. After which, leveling alternative skill lines and acquiring armor sets can allow the player to access different build paths that other classes have naturally. However, these 'natural' abilities, may have some unique mechanics only found on that class (from the skill itself, to interaction with that classes passives). But nothing too significant.

(I'm a NB, and I can't wait for a type of cloak to be added to the Fighters Guild skill line)

AdamBourke

Even better - remove classes completely!

Ragnarock41

AdamBourke wrote: »

Even better - remove classes completely!

that would be actually a smart move. All this class system does is limiting people.
''unique classes''.. lol what a joke. more like unique limitations.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

People who insist on meaningless vertical progression are part of the reason. CP is a useless, class identity stealing treadmill.

Ragnarock41

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

People who insist on meaningless vertical progression are part of the reason. CP is a useless, class identity stealing treadmill.

I never understood why cp was added in the first place. If people want a grindfest game why not play the endless numbers of korean mmos where all you do is grind non stop...

dazee

Would be nice if CP was half vertical but half horizontal. What I mean by this is you can get ALL the CP perks maxed eventually but you'd have to choose which bonuses to use at any given time. it would make characters able to do more in different situations by swapping which CP bonuses they got, but you wouldn't be able to have all the CP active at once, hence limiting the amount of verticalness.

Hurbster

Hmmm, ban Templars and Dragonknights from being vampires and werewolves for a start...And ditch the vamp bonuses so the ppl who want to rp a vamp/ww can do so.

Oh, skillswise ? Press buttons, stuff dies. Could do with pve/pvp being unlinked (premades with a pool of selectable skills would be ideal) so pve stops being nerfed all the time for pvp 'balance'.

Then we could go about getting class identities back, I guess.

Dysturbed

One must remember the developer driving principle of balance.

"Balance is only achieved when no class is fun to play."

dazee

Hurbster wrote: »

Hmmm, ban Templars and Dragonknights from being vampires and werewolves for a start...And ditch the vamp bonuses so the ppl who want to rp a vamp/ww can do so.

I thought vampires and werewolves were unwelcome in society in the ES world and if a Vampire (or werewolf) came too close to a town they'd be mobbed by the townspeople and killed with fire.