Why Can’t We Have Our Class Identities Back?

Iccotak

Riddari wrote: »

I'm all for class identity as long as it's more complex than "dps, healer, or tank"

I really really REALLY like the idea of trying to get closer to mage, thief, and warrior identities.

I feel like the game could use more recognition of these identities. Dungeons could have ways of incorporating these identify into their design.

Also if each class had a unique way of healing, tanking, and doing dps would be awesome. Probably askin for too much tho lol

Those identities are supposed to be of your creation. You just choose the means of how you go about it

Mazbt

I play all the classes and each one still feels pretty different and unique to me. Class sustain nerfs were a bit rough and imo zos messed up my favourite class abilities repent and siphoning attacks (for temp and nb respectively) but it's really not the end of the world.

Tonturri

They should've capped CP at 200-300, let you spent those points anywhere (so you weren't forced to have a balance of everything and could specialize), then let us spent additional 'CP' in...oh, I don't know, some sort of. Uh. Spellcrafting system that let us improve individual skills, where someone could - say - buff the damage of Funnel Health, or have it gain no damage buff but apply the heal to an additional target. Or change a stamina ability to scale off magicka/spell dmg, but still cost stam.

I also really wish they hadn't gone with the major/minor system. It's done a great job in murdering classes. But not everyone -has- to have a major armor buff, etc etc.

Silver_Strider

Iccotak wrote: »

Riddari wrote: »

I'm all for class identity as long as it's more complex than "dps, healer, or tank"

I really really REALLY like the idea of trying to get closer to mage, thief, and warrior identities.

I feel like the game could use more recognition of these identities. Dungeons could have ways of incorporating these identify into their design.

Also if each class had a unique way of healing, tanking, and doing dps would be awesome. Probably askin for too much tho lol

Those identities are supposed to be of your creation. You just choose the means of how you go about it

I'd agree but the majority play the same way. Most stamina builds are very identical because of lack of useful class skills for that playstyle with maybe 1-2 class skills actually differentiating them. Tanks and Healers also suffer from this as there are skills that are almost univerally required for those roles (Combat Prayer, Warhorn, Orbs, Puncture, Inner Fire, etc)

When Sun Shield and Siphoning Attacks were actual useful, we had Templar Health Tanks and NB Sap Tanks but those were neutered and are shells of their past glory. How can we choose our own means when all our tools keep getting taken away?

Ragnarock41

exeeter702 wrote: »

There is a lot of sensationalism going on in this thread.

Class design in mmos is not about classes having exclusive access to certain utilities at a fundamental level. It is not about the have and have nots. Its about class x differing from class y both thematically and in what way they achieve viability in role a, b or c via execution and class mechanics. If a class has a unique function is fine so long as it doesnt create a situation where said function's existence entirely invalidates other classes in any given role which was absolutley the case for the logest time. Eso effectively has 10 classes and having ONLY mag templar as the choice for healing or stam DK for tanking. That is down right awful and a completely wasted opprotunity. One that zos has actively been trying to address.

Thematically however, class identity is as true now as it has ever been.

except they are not stamDK tanks anymore, that meta is over since morrowind.

Tanks are now hybrids with tons of hp + just a little bit more stamina than their tiny magicka pool, and thats only because they want the templar shard to fill stamina, not magicka. otherwise they would be totally magicka based tanks.

And about your actual post, maybe pve balance is going in a better way, but PvP feels absolutely awful, with Dks viable only as tanks and templars viable only as healbots.

Kodrac

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Returning signature abilities and adding softcaps to avoid them becoming OP is what I'm all for . Use to be able to create some decent hybrids back then . I remember Jack Daniels surprising me many times when VR16 was cap .

I'd like to make some hybrids too. That'd be fun. We're pigeonholed into two choices, stamina or magicka, no inbetweens.

Vaoh

Class idenities? You mean like what made each class feel different and uniquely valuable in all content?.... yeah that’s gone. Long gone

It’s sucks whenever a returning player is excited to try new content, only to see how horrible their favorite NB Tank and Mag DK DPS have become.

ookami007

Two words: Participation trophy.

exeeter702

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

There is a lot of sensationalism going on in this thread.

Class design in mmos is not about classes having exclusive access to certain utilities at a fundamental level. It is not about the have and have nots. Its about class x differing from class y both thematically and in what way they achieve viability in role a, b or c via execution and class mechanics. If a class has a unique function is fine so long as it doesnt create a situation where said function's existence entirely invalidates other classes in any given role which was absolutley the case for the logest time. Eso effectively has 10 classes and having ONLY mag templar as the choice for healing or stam DK for tanking. That is down right awful and a completely wasted opprotunity. One that zos has actively been trying to address.

Thematically however, class identity is as true now as it has ever been.

except they are not stamDK tanks anymore, that meta is over since morrowind.

Tanks are now hybrids with tons of hp + just a little bit more stamina than their tiny magicka pool, and thats only because they want the templar shard to fill stamina, not magicka. otherwise they would be totally magicka based tanks.

And about your actual post, maybe pve balance is going in a better way, but PvP feels absolutely awful, with Dks viable only as tanks and templars viable only as healbots.

Stam or mag dk wasnt really the point at all.... classes having a vice grip on a particular role exclusivley was the point.

Pvp balance operates on entirely separate wavelengths outside of the role trinity dynamic. And frankly speaking, class identity is front and center in pvp which goes back to the whole sensationalism of this thread.

pod88kk

I miss being a werewolf/vampire hunter in pvp. I used to run with a mid sized group & we all had specific roles & specific sets to help each. I was the archer & I could 1/2 bang and vampire/werewolf that was giving our healers a hard time. I was their guardian & they were mine. Then CP levels came......

LadyLethalla

Ley wrote: »

Sets that change the way some of the class skills work. Eventually have one for each of the three class skill trees for every class. The sets could create synergies between different class skills, add additional effects to skills, change the way skills behave, give a passive bonus depending on what skills you have on your bar, ect... They could use these sets to make underused skills more desirable or to give back a more unique feeling to playing a particular class.

... Except they'll never do this, because of the whole premise of "every character can use any type of weapon and armour", as stated in the 2014(? 2015?) trailer someone posted in another thread a few days ago.

Loralai_907

I would love for my mDK to burn everything to the ground instead of give her enemies hugs that are slightly too warm temperature wise.

Just kidding, she isn't quite that bad, but she could be far more flaming mass destruction than she is right now.

Waffennacht

What PvE needs are mechanics that benefit non-combat roles

I.e. hall way of lots of very difficult enemies, if a say NB were to cloak past a few and pull a lever to open a secret passage way past said enemies. - still leaving the option to mindlessly mow them down.

Or a torch to be lit on fire via a fire ability etc etc

Rohaus

It’s because of whiners that we have this homogenized crap...

technohic

Everything used to feel powerful in some way. Now; it’s just a matter of what feels not as bad as the others. TBH; magblade doesn’t even feel that different than sorc to me. Just trading a big shield and streak for cloak and shadow image. A neutered percentage based proc ability for a stronger proc after a light attack count. Sorc is left with the better execute and delayed burst but NB has the better spammable and offense ultimate but they feel to play similar.

DKs and Templars were *** IMO to provide room for Warden as off roles

Not to say any of them are bad. They just lost something

Idinuse

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

It’s beginning to become more and more clear that every single class outside of Nightblades has lost a huge piece of what made them special. No, this time a nerf Nightblades thread. So the vast majority of you can calm down. This is a thread asking the devs if the rest of the classes can have their “something special” returned to them.

Now look. I understand the counter argument is, “Champ, what are you talking about? Sorcs still can shield stack, and Templars can still spam heals like no tomorrow.” Yes, but not really. To those making that claim, you are correct. But you are also incorrect. A lot of the things about what made Templars special, are gone; or given to another class. A lot of what made Sorcs special were removed. A lot of what made DKs special was removed. And it’s like... Only Nightblades appear to still have that unique “thing” about them, that the devs absolutely refused to touch. Why? Because the vast majority of the player base mains then, understandably enough. And to go on and remove something that the majority of your consumers likes is like shooting yourself in the foot. Yes. I get it. But, why can’t everyone else still be unique and not so watered down?

Like... I look back at when VR14 was cap, and before Imperial City went live. That to me was when I can say there was true balance and class identity. No 2 classes felt or even played remotely similar. People can call those days chaotic and a mess all they want, but each and every class felt special and had their own unique gimmicks that made them stand out from the each other. And it’s like patch after patch, a big chunk from every class bar Nightblades gets ripped away. And I don’t understand why.

DK’s back then were known for incredible sustain, and even known for being the true front-line brawlers. The folks who got up in the mix, be it magicka or stamina. And could truly hold their ground when going toe-to-toe with people. Magicka or stamina. And while generating stamina while blocking was indeed a bit much, it still gave the class the identity of “the tank”. The class that is hard and grounded like stone.

Sorcerers back then were high-speed mages, that cast wards and put out high damage. But if caught with their shields down, and or pressured enough crumbled. They were the “masters of the arcane”, and were capable of high-speed combat and incredibly high burst damage. Yes being able to Bolt Escape without penalty, and having long durations on their shields were annoying within PvP environments. But, they still swiftly dealt with if tackled by people with strategy.

Templars. The people who would literally spear you to death, and or beam you from a block away. They were not to be screwed with or F’d with without extremely caution. They were the clerics that could kill, and demanded respect wherever you encountered them. Yes, them being able to heal for days was a bit crazy. And being able to beam you from miles away was definitely frustrating. But still. It too could have been managed without too much hassle, if proper care was taken when engaging in combat with them.

And Nightblades. The stealthy assassins who’d insta-gib you from seemingly out of nowhere. The class that made you become paranoid about straying too far from your group, if in PvP. And made you become weary of being solo in Cyrodiil. No pun intended, but they truly put fear into players from their swift and sneaky tactics. Yes the old version of cloak was incredibly annoying, as well as the other tools at their disposal. But, Nightblades back then had the cost of being incredibly fragile. Making the class extremely difficult to master be it magicka or stamina, and ultimately have to pick very wisely about which skills they were going to use.

Do you understand what I’m trying to get at it? Only Nightblades for the most part truly retained their sense of self identity. Where as patch after patch, every single class is losing what it is that makes them special. Their losing their shine. And I’m not asking for nerfs to any class, nor buffs to anyone. But can you all at ZOS PLEASE return the unique characteristics that you took away from every class? Please? It’s not even a matter about adjusting at this point, as things are becoming to the point where every class plays exactly the same as 1 another. And that’s bad. I mean, even in PvE it got so bad that a few patches ago Burning Spellweave was best-in-slot for every magicka-based class across the board. What in the hell, ZOS? Come on now. That’s not right. And while diversity is slowly returning, it seems like the damage is already done. And things are beginning to fall apart and break.

People can say how unbalanced and screwed up ESO was prior to the Imperial City update, but at least every single class was truly different in every single way. And they all had something which made them extremely annoying and or borderline overpowered. And that was what made each 1 of them special, and made those times in the past so memorable. Because through the imbalance and diversity, there was identity. And from those extreme differences of identity came balance. And from balance came happiness.

Ch4mpTW

Rohaus wrote: »

It’s because of whiners that we have this homogenized crap...

I’m really starting to believe this to be true. The more and more I observe the behavior of the player base, the more and more I begin to wonder if it isn’t really so much the fault of ZOS entirely. But rather us the players having the take part of the blame.

Tasear

Umm... Hmm

Kinda feels like a different game. I mean to say you might have a point. But it's better this a better way. Feels like you can play as you want with different styles.

rustic_potato

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

It’s because of whiners that we have this homogenized crap...

I’m really starting to believe this to be true. The more and more I observe the behavior of the player base, the more and more I begin to wonder if it isn’t really so much the fault of ZOS entirely. But rather us the players having the take part of the blame.

As long as PVE and PVP are not balanced separately we will continue to see homogenization. Either they have to go for the rock paper scissors type of balance or they have to separate PVP from PVE.

Drdeath20

Pepridge farms remembers when templars had blinding flashes

IlCanis_LupuslI

Kalante wrote: »

This are the changes that will help pvp.
Add a stronger roll dodge penalty, remove the 1ms immunity from attacks after a roll dodge, nerf
Major invasion or remove it and give vigor a buff. Give cloak a penalty just like streak. Nerf burst healing from magicka templars and make shields critible.

It is time for people to stop relying on crutches.

Also nerf heavy armor and defile or buff medium armor. Nobody other than gankers use medium armor because there is no point for it in pvp. That 12% damage passive from medium armor still stuck on the stone ages since pre thieves guild and it doesn't do anything in todays heavy meta. Light armor players get 5k penetration and they have a fair amount of survival because of instant uncritible shields. Medium armor is just trash open world combat and die so easily, anything that touches you hits like a truck.

Ok but make that shields can crit and scale with the crit multiplier. Be careful what you wish for...

AllPlayAndNoWork

brandonv516 wrote: »

The only identities are healer, tank, damage.

There are no templars, nightblades, sorcerers, dragonknights, or wardens.

IMO this was all down to the early days of ESO when everyone was whinging and wanted every class to be DPS, tank or healer. And i think the game slowly dies a little more at each update as a consequence.

Crom_CCCXVI

CONCUSSION BUILD DK --- DEAD

It took a Lightning Staff (charged with Shock Glyph)
Destructive Reach- Elemental Barrier- and then you would get a couple Power Lash's

Didn't hit as hard as a Sorc, lost most 1 v 1's to heavy armor because the damage wasn't that good, but still fun to play.. destroyed.
I guess we are down to 2 ways to play a MagDK now... Flame Staff spam and slow dot grind and burn, great...

It was just so "overpowered", LOL... I did put the nerf prediction in the video though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mtjsCEvGPs

LeagueTroll

LordSemaj wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Don't confuse "class identity" with "ability monopoly". You're wanting each class to do something the others can't, that's a monopoly. Class identity means something unique that sets a class' playstyle and feel apart from others.

The class identities are still intact:
Dragon knight: wings, claws, talonz, fire breath
Sorceror: summoned daedra, raw magic (overload)
Templar: auras, healing, glowing spears
Night blade: stealth/invisibility, life draining
Warden: nature magic, animal pets, ice magic

I agree, other than stam sorc, everything seem to have a clear identity to me.

That's if you look at the class as a whole instead of what players are actually using.

Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, PVP skills like Caltrops and Vigor, Weapon skills, have all been replacing class dependence to the point that if you have more than 1-2 class skills on your bar you're probably playing some weird build.

Stam Sorc, funnily enough, is one of the few builds that actually makes ample use of class skills and would therefore have MORE of a class identity than others.

If you count bound armor as class identity, then sure.

QuebraRegra

Riddari wrote: »

I'm all for class identity as long as it's more complex than "dps, healer, or tank"

I really really REALLY like the idea of trying to get closer to mage, thief, and warrior identities.

I feel like the game could use more recognition of these identities. Dungeons could have ways of incorporating these identify into their design.

Also if each class had a unique way of healing, tanking, and doing dps would be awesome. Probably askin for too much tho lol

came to play a thief, detect and disarm traps, backstab, etc.... ended up queuing as DPS

The game needs design elements which make useof the classic "class" concepts (see DDO, etc.)

dazee

Honestly this game would be a lot more fun and Elder Scrolls like if they removed classes altogether and opened every skill line.

Savos_Saren

Everyone is stating that ZoS has homogenized most of the class skills or abilities and it's true.

From a DK's perspective:

-They took the original Flames of Oblivion and gave it to Sorcs

-They neutered our wings and gave everyone access to the same skill via Shield Wall

-Talons/encase gave DKs that "crowd control" upperhand... but now is overshadowed by other CCs like Fear, Encase, Negate, and Permafrost

-Our DoTs are easily purged and our "burst" is dodgeable (sadly, we have to rely on monster helms for our main burst as well)

-They ended up giving us a form of expedition... but attached it to a GAP CLOSER. Why would I need expedition AFTER I've closed the gap to the fight??? I need expedition to catch up to the fight and then gap close!

-The concept that our ultimate returns resources as a "class defining skill" is now available to stamina users via the Witchman's armor.

-...and yet out of all this "balancing" and sharing our skills... we still don't have any form of execute for an mDK.

Ch4mpTW

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Everyone is stating that ZoS has homogenized most of the class skills or abilities and it's true.

From a DK's perspective:

-They took the original Flames of Oblivion and gave it to Sorcs

-They neutered our wings and gave everyone access to the same skill via Shield Wall

-Talons/encase gave DKs that "crowd control" upperhand... but now is overshadowed by other CCs like Fear, Encase, Negate, and Permafrost

-Our DoTs are easily purged and our "burst" is dodgeable (sadly, we have to rely on monster helms for our main burst as well)

-They ended up giving us a form of expedition... but attached it to a GAP CLOSER. Why would I need expedition AFTER I've closed the gap to the fight??? I need expedition to catch up to the fight and then gap close!

-The concept that our ultimate returns resources as a "class defining skill" is now available to stamina users via the Witchman's armor.

-...and yet out of all this "balancing" and sharing our skills... we still don't have any form of execute for an mDK.

If I could give you a million agrees, I would. Still waiting on a MagDK buff, and or something that throws us a bone. An execute or something.

MaxwellC

Magicka DK does not need a buff, it preforms perfectly fine right now.
What really needs to change is the idea of how you can block and still do full healing/damaging abilities without any penalty other than 0 stam regen.

Smmokkee

All I can say is omg ive never seen someone whine about nbs more than you. You lead the noob witch hunt agaisnt nbs. Scared of playing solo because of nbs? Why didnt you just tell everyone you were bad and not to listen to what you had to say instead?