Does block cost need to be nerfed a bit more? Permablocking is still a problem.

josiahva · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Even after the changes to blocking in Dragon Bones the block cost at full reduction is around 385 or so. That is still a very cheap block cost that doesn't reward challenging and immersive game play. I believe blocking should be "split second reaction" type game play. In titles like TERA we saw a second resource used for blocking and most of the blocking done by the preferred tank (Lander) required split-second reactions in order to maintain this resource and DPS + Threat.

Tanks have it far too easy in PVP and PVE. They can practically STILL hold block almost indefinitely whilst the other players have to do a lot of actual strategic work to remain alive.

In closing I would also like to address health pools. There should be diminishing returns or even a maximum health pool a player can have to prevent ignoring mechanics. These limits or diminishing returns should begin at different amounts depending on if you are a Tank, Healer, or DPS.

you sir are an idiot, go fly a kite. I am tired of my tanks being nerfed because of whining PvP players that cry because they cant kill everyone.

AzraelKrieg · February 2018

Block cost already got nerfed in the Dragonbones update.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Even after the changes to blocking in Dragon Bones the block cost at full reduction is around 385 or so. That is still a very cheap block cost that doesn't reward challenging and immersive game play. I believe blocking should be "split second reaction" type game play. In titles like TERA we saw a second resource used for blocking and most of the blocking done by the preferred tank (Lander) required split-second reactions in order to maintain this resource and DPS + Threat.

Tanks have it far too easy in PVP and PVE. They can practically STILL hold block almost indefinitely whilst the other players have to do a lot of actual strategic work to remain alive.

In closing I would also like to address health pools. There should be diminishing returns or even a maximum health pool a player can have to prevent ignoring mechanics. These limits or diminishing returns should begin at different amounts depending on if you are a Tank, Healer, or DPS.

Screw you PvP players, tired of you making things harder on us tanks because you couldn't get an easy kill.

AcadianPaladin · February 2018

Yes, let's nerf blocking and high health. After all there are just too darn many tanks, right?

Seriously, why in the world would you urge anything that discourages players from choosing the least chosen role?

The perks of being a tank are being very hard to kill and, by holding taunt on the biggest threats, protect other players. The downside is so little damage that solo play can be terribly tedious since you can't quickly mow down mobs like a dps (or even many healers) can.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Btw this knowledge guy does nothing but post asinine nerf threads, he's got to be a troll.

TheCyberDruid · February 2018

Mitoice · February 2018

I also agree that this post is senseless... thank god NOBODY agrees with OP....

Zer0oo · February 2018

What the last "balance" update did:

The did not really nerf block cost in pvp if you did not run some zero damage block build but semi-perm-blocking builds got an insane buff.

In pve all tanks got nerfed which is not much of a deal for an exp tank on a meta tank class in many situation but not meta tank classes, inexp tanks or tanks with "bad" groups(if a fight takes longer because the group dps it will be harder on the tank than a tank in a group that can just nuke the boss and this update just did make it worse) got hurt the most while any tank class with good sustain tools can quite good deal with it. Not sure what the combat team actually thinks when doing this changes.

So more or less the "balance" update was useless and just did create more problems than it did solve but we are used to something like that.

The problem in pvp is the insane mitigation perm blocking offers. 70% damage mitigation and even more against range builds this leads to problems if a player can block for an quite long time since there is only limited counter to such a high damage reduction.

Izaki · February 2018

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

My main is a tank that is far from a normal build. She is a Templar that with tri stat food, rolls about 44k health, 24k stamina and 17k magicka. I have obviously not stacked all her resources into a single stat. I only block heavy attacks and interrupt special attacks if I can. The rest of the time I try to control the fight, buff the group, provide off healing and if there is time try to add damage to build ultimate so I can keep warhorn up. Just too busy to permablock.

You can do every single one of the things you've mentionned while holding block

kojou · February 2018

Probably a troll post to get PvE tanks riled up...

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Lets increase the cost of dodge roll by 400% and all damage shields by an equal amount as well. Also no more magicka recovery while you have a damage shield active or for 2 seconds after it depletes.

Magicka and health stacking are a problem too, so let's add diminishing returns on both resources so everyone is limited to an effective cap of 20k.

Also, some healer didn't die instantly when I stabbed him, which makes no sense because he was wearing a dress and dresses don't stop knives, so all healing should be reduced by 100% in PvP.

Saturn · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Even after the changes to blocking in Dragon Bones the block cost at full reduction is around 385 or so. That is still a very cheap block cost that doesn't reward challenging and immersive game play. I believe blocking should be "split second reaction" type game play. In titles like TERA we saw a second resource used for blocking and most of the blocking done by the preferred tank (Lander) required split-second reactions in order to maintain this resource and DPS + Threat.

Tanks have it far too easy in PVP and PVE. They can practically STILL hold block almost indefinitely whilst the other players have to do a lot of actual strategic work to remain alive.

In closing I would also like to address health pools. There should be diminishing returns or even a maximum health pool a player can have to prevent ignoring mechanics. These limits or diminishing returns should begin at different amounts depending on if you are a Tank, Healer, or DPS.

I have highlighted the things I disagree with.

First off, split-second reactions are bad in an MMO, especially one as optimisationally-challenged (yes I just made that a phrase) as ESO. There is a very obvious reason why all of the mechanics in ESO are not instant, they have clear tells that after a few seconds lead to some kind of mechanic. The reason, which may surprise you I imagine, is that not everyone who plays ESO has the same latency. I personally play with a constant ping of 220 or higher, sometimes flatlining at 350 in dungeons. My reaction speed is limited by the delay at which I can receive the messages by the game servers, meaning I wouldn't be able to see mechanics before they happened if they were "split-second" based, and this is something ZOS has taken into consideration, as well as pretty much every other MMO developer who has some sense in their heads, since otherwise you'd exclude players based on where they log on from, for example Australian and Asian players, who have no servers of their own.

I don't think Tanks have it far too easy. Perhaps if you play some of the early PvE content, but everyone has it easy there. In the new dungeons and trials (with a few exceptions in trials, especially for off-tanks) there are a lot of extremely punishing fights that make it difficult to maintain resources, while blocking to avoid near-constant hits that would otherwise oneshot you. Split-second reaction blocking also doesn't work in this case, as one little mistake means you die, and thereby making it too risky of a playstyle, which is why no tank worth their weight would play like that.

I don't know of any situations where your health pool can help you avoid mechanics. There are a few situations where having over a certain amount helps you avoid one-shots, but that isn't what you'd consider "ignoring mechanics". Most boss fights with mechanics that will oneshot you if you fail to do them correctly cannot be ignored with a certain amount of health, as the oneshot damage generally always scales to the individual player. However, the are sets which will let you skip oneshot mechanics, such as Yokeda and Phoenix. Honestly, I'm not even sure what this part is referring to as in no content I know of is it possible to skip mechanics simply because of a large health pool...

I don't think block cost needs to be nerfed more, especially not while the fights added to the game require more and more from tanks. From reading this it sounds like you haven't ever tried tanking content like that, and honestly I'm just wondering why you even made this thread..

EvilAutoTech · February 2018

Izaki wrote: »

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

My main is a tank that is far from a normal build. She is a Templar that with tri stat food, rolls about 44k health, 24k stamina and 17k magicka. I have obviously not stacked all her resources into a single stat. I only block heavy attacks and interrupt special attacks if I can. The rest of the time I try to control the fight, buff the group, provide off healing and if there is time try to add damage to build ultimate so I can keep warhorn up. Just too busy to permablock.

You can do every single one of the things you've mentionned while holding block

For how long? Almost every skill I have slotted while tanking is a stamina skill. I don't run only with groups that do 100k DPS. Most Boss fights I have experienced take longer than 15 seconds. What good is a tank that can't taunt because they are out of stamina?

Malamar1229 · February 2018

Change ultimate generation for blocking

Twenty0zTsunami · February 2018

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

My main is a tank that is far from a normal build. She is a Templar that with tri stat food, rolls about 44k health, 24k stamina and 17k magicka. I have obviously not stacked all her resources into a single stat. I only block heavy attacks and interrupt special attacks if I can. The rest of the time I try to control the fight, buff the group, provide off healing and if there is time try to add damage to build ultimate so I can keep warhorn up. Just too busy to permablock.

You can do every single one of the things you've mentionned while holding block

For how long? Almost every skill I have slotted while tanking is a stamina skill. I don't run only with groups that do 100k DPS. Most Boss fights I have experienced take longer than 15 seconds. What good is a tank that can't taunt because they are out of stamina?

if you can't manage your resources that falls on you. Perhaps you shouldn't block through the entire fight?

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Twenty0zTsunami wrote: »

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

My main is a tank that is far from a normal build. She is a Templar that with tri stat food, rolls about 44k health, 24k stamina and 17k magicka. I have obviously not stacked all her resources into a single stat. I only block heavy attacks and interrupt special attacks if I can. The rest of the time I try to control the fight, buff the group, provide off healing and if there is time try to add damage to build ultimate so I can keep warhorn up. Just too busy to permablock.

You can do every single one of the things you've mentionned while holding block

For how long? Almost every skill I have slotted while tanking is a stamina skill. I don't run only with groups that do 100k DPS. Most Boss fights I have experienced take longer than 15 seconds. What good is a tank that can't taunt because they are out of stamina?

if you can't manage your resources that falls on you. Perhaps you shouldn't block through the entire fight?

Templar tanks, like nightblades, really have no source of reliable resource management. All these block cost increases we've seen over the past year have hit them harder than any other class for tanking. Nightblade lost stamina return on siphoning attacks and Templars can't sustain without corpses.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2018

Does permacloaking need a nerf? Does cloaking .00001 seconds right before an enemy's arrow/charge hits them need a nerf?

Twenty0zTsunami · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Twenty0zTsunami wrote: »

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

My main is a tank that is far from a normal build. She is a Templar that with tri stat food, rolls about 44k health, 24k stamina and 17k magicka. I have obviously not stacked all her resources into a single stat. I only block heavy attacks and interrupt special attacks if I can. The rest of the time I try to control the fight, buff the group, provide off healing and if there is time try to add damage to build ultimate so I can keep warhorn up. Just too busy to permablock.

You can do every single one of the things you've mentionned while holding block

For how long? Almost every skill I have slotted while tanking is a stamina skill. I don't run only with groups that do 100k DPS. Most Boss fights I have experienced take longer than 15 seconds. What good is a tank that can't taunt because they are out of stamina?

if you can't manage your resources that falls on you. Perhaps you shouldn't block through the entire fight?

Templar tanks, like nightblades, really have no source of reliable resource management. All these block cost increases we've seen over the past year have hit them harder than any other class for tanking. Nightblade lost stamina return on siphoning attacks and Templars can't sustain without corpses.

lol I have a 50 templar(CP 500) tank and yeah you can easily manage your stam if you do more than block during a fight.

coop500 · February 2018

Haven't we nerfed tanks enough? It's the least played role and a nightmare to find one for a trial or dungeon, we don't need to discourage them any further.

Most permablock tanks can't deal any damage, so just ignore them.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Lets increase the cost of dodge roll by 400% and all damage shields by an equal amount as well. Also no more magicka recovery while you have a damage shield active or for 2 seconds after it depletes.

Magicka and health stacking are a problem too, so let's add diminishing returns on both resources so everyone is limited to an effective cap of 20k.

Also, some healer didn't die instantly when I stabbed him, which makes no sense because he was wearing a dress and dresses don't stop knives, so all healing should be reduced by 100% in PvP.

This.

Sheezabeast · February 2018

In PVP you can just counter perma-block by simply running poisons. Why make PVE suffer because you aren't using all the already available tools available to you? As a PVPer it makes no sense to me why PVE tanking has to take it on the chin.

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Surak73 · February 2018

Oh, well. Permablockers (or near-permablockers) are usefull in Cyrodiil since you can use them to build up your ultimate with light/heavy attacks, while you're fighting the players who pose real dangers. It's up to you to not waste all of your time and your resorces against them.

Kolache · February 2018

Not advocating this proposal but it cracks me up that so many people get their jimmies rustled over nerf talk.

Does ESO seem like a particularly difficult game?

Anhedonie · February 2018

Good luck with vAA axes.

Brutusmax1mus · February 2018

I'm pretty with the dragon bones update my dk got a big to its perma blocking.

Kuramas9tails · February 2018

I have a feeling you never tanked before.

EvilAutoTech · February 2018

Twenty0zTsunami wrote: »

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

My main is a tank that is far from a normal build. She is a Templar that with tri stat food, rolls about 44k health, 24k stamina and 17k magicka. I have obviously not stacked all her resources into a single stat. I only block heavy attacks and interrupt special attacks if I can. The rest of the time I try to control the fight, buff the group, provide off healing and if there is time try to add damage to build ultimate so I can keep warhorn up. Just too busy to permablock.

You can do every single one of the things you've mentionned while holding block

For how long? Almost every skill I have slotted while tanking is a stamina skill. I don't run only with groups that do 100k DPS. Most Boss fights I have experienced take longer than 15 seconds. What good is a tank that can't taunt because they are out of stamina?

if you can't manage your resources that falls on you. Perhaps you shouldn't block through the entire fight?

That was the point of my first post. I do not and cannot block for the entire fight. I only block heavy attacks so I have resources to be able to fulfill my role.

In the post you quoted, I was responding to a post that said I could do it all while blocking.

As someone who enjoys tanking with a Templar, I don't think block cost needs another nerf.

Since I am on Xbox, I have yet to see how this patch will affect my tank build.

Mureel · February 2018

Zer0oo wrote: »

What the last "balance" update did:

The did not really nerf block cost in pvp if you did not run some zero damage block build but semi-perm-blocking builds got an insane buff.

In pve all tanks got nerfed which is not much of a deal for an exp tank on a meta tank class in many situation but not meta tank classes, inexp tanks or tanks with "bad" groups(if a fight takes longer because the group dps it will be harder on the tank than a tank in a group that can just nuke the boss and this update just did make it worse) got hurt the most while any tank class with good sustain tools can quite good deal with it. Not sure what the combat team actually thinks when doing this changes.

So more or less the "balance" update was useless and just did create more problems than it did solve but we are used to something like that.

The problem in pvp is the insane mitigation perm blocking offers. 70% damage mitigation and even more against range builds this leads to problems if a player can block for an quite long time since there is only limited counter to such a high damage reduction.

Go find someone else to kill then. With a pop lock on all alliances - it shouldn't be that hard to go find someone nice and squishy.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · February 2018

Ankael07 wrote: »

Isnt it time to introduce a Soft Cap yet? How much more should normal builds suffer because someone stacked everything into a single stat?

We had that in 2014. Also no champion points giving 20% more block cost reduction. The game was much better then but progression fetishists love their stupid Crapeon system and love to just stack damage to the roof so they can 360 no scope people like call of duty. Bring back soft caps and get rid of the burst meta. I'm all for it.

StaticWave · February 2018

Draxys wrote: »

When was the last time a perma blocking player killed you in pvp? If you say within the last year, you're what needs to change, not blocking.

I'd beg to differ. Magdks that permablock can put out damage and still be able to stay on the defense. Combined with their cc capabilities certain classes have real trouble fighting them. Not to mention blocking prevents resource gains from heavy attacks, so when a permablocking magdk uses resource drain poison, you're guaranteed to be out of juice within 15 seconds.