For me problem is that game play don't change much with new DLC. Yeah we gain new sets etc but overall it feels the same, beams from eyes, flying crows or dead skeever. Not much difference game play wise, when they announced Morrowind i was hyped for new Skill lines or something but nah, we got Warden that i don't play because im not Alt'oholic so i play just one hero all the time. It's like 3 years now that i spam 60% of same abilities since day 1. FeelsBadMan

Corrinos wrote: »

erickthe wrote: »

Corrinos wrote: »

erickthe wrote: »

The true end game is outfits and housing.

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek, but <cringe> ZOS is about 10+ years behind the curve on that one, too. LotRO had a vastly superior housing system IMHO.

Actually I'm serious. I don't think there's anything wrong with lack of perpetual vertical progression and taking time off from the game sometimes.

I am curious about the LotRO housing though. What's it like?

I agree, housing and cosmetics can be *one* way to progress your character, but before the addition of storage, what was the real incentive to own a house? Dummies and some convenience items already located in world (that generally cost real money to obtain?)

RE: LotRO: Just speaking from the top of my head:

1. Storage chests available from Day 1 (and didn't cost real money, i.e. crowns)
2. Ability to customize music in your house
3. Variety of wallpapers
3. Each house was in a mini zone (think neighborhood) - you could physically visit other people's houses, see their yards, etc. without porting to instances
4. I'm also fairly certain your pets would roam around your house, too - instead of the semi-animated statues that we currently have.

You're crazy, right? LOTROs housing you can't even place items in the exact spot you want. They only very recently added the ability to push and pull from their hooks...

Edit: This is speaking as someone who played LOTRO for many many years and spent entirely too much $$ on it. LOTROs Wardrobe system > ESO right now (IMO), but to say that LOTROs housing is better than ESOs (now) is insane.

I agree. Same gear sets, same dungeons plus a few, same trials plus one (cleared vAS HM already), there's nothing really new. The new content doesn't add any new gear that's really all that much better or useful. I'm using one new monster set with a new proc.. cool? That's it until summer? Uh.. okay.

And throughout all this time, my dps hasn't budged. It's right under 40k with stam and with magicka, and knowing zos, it's more likely to go down than up in the future.

Pinesy wrote: »

Corrinos wrote: »

erickthe wrote: »

Corrinos wrote: »

erickthe wrote: »

The true end game is outfits and housing.

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek, but <cringe> ZOS is about 10+ years behind the curve on that one, too. LotRO had a vastly superior housing system IMHO.

Actually I'm serious. I don't think there's anything wrong with lack of perpetual vertical progression and taking time off from the game sometimes.

I am curious about the LotRO housing though. What's it like?

I agree, housing and cosmetics can be *one* way to progress your character, but before the addition of storage, what was the real incentive to own a house? Dummies and some convenience items already located in world (that generally cost real money to obtain?)

RE: LotRO: Just speaking from the top of my head:

1. Storage chests available from Day 1 (and didn't cost real money, i.e. crowns)
2. Ability to customize music in your house
3. Variety of wallpapers
3. Each house was in a mini zone (think neighborhood) - you could physically visit other people's houses, see their yards, etc. without porting to instances
4. I'm also fairly certain your pets would roam around your house, too - instead of the semi-animated statues that we currently have.

You're crazy, right? LOTROs housing you can't even place items in the exact spot you want. They only very recently added the ability to push and pull from their hooks...

Edit: This is speaking as someone who played LOTRO for many many years and spent entirely too much $$ on it. LOTROs Wardrobe system > ESO right now (IMO), but to say that LOTROs housing is better than ESOs (now) is insane.

LotRO is over 10 years old and had features that ZOS is just now implementing or has yet to.

If you think the current housing system is representative of what is possible (or even expected) of a modern MMO, you're delusional.

Ley wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

One of the main reasons I like ESO is specifically because of the lack of that end game treadmill. When they add new content it just creates more diversity, rather than a new horizon for you to set out for.

I don't disagree that it's nice not having to chase new gear levels all the time, but the problem is that because the lack of this exact structure, there's very little encouragement to run through content for gear, which is the main drive in other MMOs, even more so since ZOS is inept at making good sets for some reason. Like, look at the sets people run, most of them have been in the game forever, and most of the new sets are just gimmicky ones that have no real application anywhere. They should be working hard to make ESO's endgame have something that would make you interested in running it, since they don't have the same kind of gear progression as many other MMOs do. The fact that they haven't just means they probably don't care that much. Or the more worryingly, they might not know how to do such a thing. If the Asylum and Halls of Fabrication are an indicator they've certainly forgotten how to make fun trials, because they seem to think that, More Health = More Fun.

Also, it's hard to call it gear diversity, when all classes have clear BiS, with everything else being subpar by comparison. Like look at the sets people use, look at what Morrowind caused, that diversity you are talking about is a thing of the past, and even back before the sustain collapse the diversity wasn't that immense.

The main problem with ESO's endgame is the lack of progression. There's no gear progression. There's very little skill progression, at least outside of trying to beat HM trials. There aren't any legendary weapons / sets to work towards. And content is added with vast spaces inbetween either 1 at a time (trials) or 2 at a time (dungeons) every year.

Gear diversity doesn't necessarily have to apply only to BiS equipment. What percentage of the community do you think only consider BiS for their gear? How about their alts?

If every time new content was released the new gear for that content was BiS, it would make all the other gear become obsolete over time.

Also consider when you say BiS, what/who is it BiS for? Trials? PvP? Vet Dungeons? Magica single target? Running scrolls in Cyrodiil? Stamina AoE? Running with pugs? Soloing world bosses? Ganking in PvP? Clearing trash mobs? Resource node farming?

Then you have to consider a person's play style. A player may be willing to sacrifice a BiS set for something that suits their play style better.

I was of the assumption that the peson I replied to was specifically referring to the endgame community, hence why I used the term BiS, as that's very prevalent there. People who run the trials a lot, especially for the HMs, all do their best to be as min/max'ed as possible.
Granted Endgame doesn't have to only be the hardcore PvE players. Though, if you disregard BiS there are still very few good sets from the endgame content worth running, which I'm sure people with other preferences are already aware of. My current setups on all my characters usually involves 1 monster set, a crafted set and then a dungeon set. The problem there is that all this gear is obtainable from dungeons, and the trials don't offer better gear in most cases. So you are running an optimal setup before even reaching the hardest content, which I think is really stupid. All that being said, skill is a larger factor than gear, as compared to something like WoW, meaning players with the "best gear" aren't automatically super powerful, as that still (thankfully) relies on a player's skill and experience. The topic here pertains to lack of meaningful things to run content for, which is what I think the game lacks, by not putting strong gear sets in the trials. Also I don't think that getting new stronger gear once per year would make old sets obsolete. The trick is obviously to make them appealing and strong, but not overpowered.

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

One thing that has always bothered me about this game is gear progession, or lack of. My friend and I haven't played since Morrowind. He's a templar healer and I, a dk tank. I looked at the current builds coming out with Dragon Bones, and oddly enough, it's the same builds as Shadows of the Hist. Ebon/Alkosh and Worm/SPC have stayed BiS. I love MMOs for the grind, the farm, moving through content to become better. New content is great, but what's the point when new content doesn't give me anything to progess?

ecru wrote: »

I agree. Same gear sets, same dungeons plus a few, same trials plus one (cleared vAS HM already), there's nothing really new. The new content doesn't add any new gear that's really all that much better or useful. I'm using one new monster set with a new proc.. cool? That's it until summer? Uh.. okay.

And throughout all this time, my dps hasn't budged. It's right under 40k with stam and with magicka, and knowing zos, it's more likely to go down than up in the future.

This is the sentiment I was trying to convey. I mean, really, is end game all about grinding new dyes? Maybe a different gear set that is slightly more "bis" than the last "bis" gear, but really not noticeable unless you are parsing on a dummy?

Some of the people here are expressing incredulity about me wanting to constantly be improving my character. I hear cries of, "How long do you think you can keep that up?" All I can say is you need more imagination. There are lot's of games out there with thousands of hours of vertical progression available. Look at DDO for ideas, maybe? Yeah it's an old game, but people could learn from their innovations. Being able to reincarnate your character when he reaches a certain peak, keeping some minor perks from each past life, for example. Look at the roots of ESO for another example: DAOC realm abilities took years to earn, and provided meaning advancement for your character.

It's like people have never played any other MMOs before this one...?!

gard wrote: »

For once I will leave a serious reply.

The value in ESO isn't in character progression (although, if you level umteen characters to 50 in different classes, there's an element of it).

What makes ESO worth playing (for me) is the people playing with me. It was the same when I played DAoC/WoW/Ultima Online/you name it all the way back to text based muds.

If I was only interested in progression, I'd play a single player game.

???

Every online game - including MUDs had a social component - and is quite frankly greens fees for the genre. MUDs also had deep character progression (e.g. MUME, Arctic, etc.)

jaye63 wrote: »

This issue that no one is taking into consideration is in order to have true end game, it has to continually progrress. We keep getting better weapons, armor, CP, more CP, new DLCs and until this DLC, nothing really gets any more difficult. Unless there is a continual stream to challenge the new gear/skills/whatever, the game gets easier and easier with no challenge. Which is why we get DLCs. Sooner or later it all comes down to a grind for better stuff with no real challenge for the better stuff. Power creep eventually begets Bosses that just have more HP to make it take longer which isnt a challenge and is actually boring.

NO GAME EVER has ever had a set up where the dungeon evaluates the characters in the dungeon to make a challenge that forces the player to think rather than just run thru a preset rotation of skills. There needs to be surprises that shakes up the status quo. And when you build that engine, be sure you sell it for a kings ransom.

You mean the introduction of randomness? It doesn't take too much intellectual heavy lifting to incorporate random traps, random daedric portals opening, random mechanics on bosses, etc.

It's a lack of imagination, frankly. The tech already exists.

rophez_ESO wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

This issue that no one is taking into consideration is in order to have true end game, it has to continually progrress. We keep getting better weapons, armor, CP, more CP, new DLCs and until this DLC, nothing really gets any more difficult. Unless there is a continual stream to challenge the new gear/skills/whatever, the game gets easier and easier with no challenge. Which is why we get DLCs. Sooner or later it all comes down to a grind for better stuff with no real challenge for the better stuff. Power creep eventually begets Bosses that just have more HP to make it take longer which isnt a challenge and is actually boring.

NO GAME EVER has ever had a set up where the dungeon evaluates the characters in the dungeon to make a challenge that forces the player to think rather than just run thru a preset rotation of skills. There needs to be surprises that shakes up the status quo. And when you build that engine, be sure you sell it for a kings ransom.

Are you trying to say the current 4 man end game material is hard? That the reason they won't give us any new progression avenues is because they want to keep the end game "hard"? I have news for you, mate, after a week or two of running the new dungeons over and over, it's all trivial for my usual 4 man. What would be wrong with letting us slowly grow our power so that we can complete this trivial content a little faster? Or how about, and here's where things get crazy, adding a new difficulty tier? We've got normal and vet, how about champion or demi-god? lol. I mean, shucks, I don't work in game design, but it shouldn't be that hard to give us an eternal carrot to chase.

Oh s**t... it's almost as if you've spent 30 seconds thinking about it...?! Are you a wizard?

rophez_ESO wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

This issue that no one is taking into consideration is in order to have true end game, it has to continually progrress. We keep getting better weapons, armor, CP, more CP, new DLCs and until this DLC, nothing really gets any more difficult. Unless there is a continual stream to challenge the new gear/skills/whatever, the game gets easier and easier with no challenge. Which is why we get DLCs. Sooner or later it all comes down to a grind for better stuff with no real challenge for the better stuff. Power creep eventually begets Bosses that just have more HP to make it take longer which isnt a challenge and is actually boring.

NO GAME EVER has ever had a set up where the dungeon evaluates the characters in the dungeon to make a challenge that forces the player to think rather than just run thru a preset rotation of skills. There needs to be surprises that shakes up the status quo. And when you build that engine, be sure you sell it for a kings ransom.

Are you trying to say the current 4 man end game material is hard? That the reason they won't give us any new progression avenues is because they want to keep the end game "hard"? I have news for you, mate, after a week or two of running the new dungeons over and over, it's all trivial for my usual 4 man. What would be wrong with letting us slowly grow our power so that we can complete this trivial content a little faster? Or how about, and here's where things get crazy, adding a new difficulty tier? We've got normal and vet, how about champion or demi-god? lol. I mean, shucks, I don't work in game design, but it shouldn't be that hard to give us an eternal carrot to chase.

I'm sure that everyone would find all content trivial if they had the tome, desire, and same friends on all of the time to run the newer DLC dungeons over and over and over again.

Some of us rely on PUG's, don't have the internet speeds and reflexes required to get high DPS (and practice does not always make perfect) and struggle to find guilds with members on when we are on to get through this stuff with.

I have never completed a Vet DLC dungeon, never even started a vet trial, have only run the normal trials once or twice and have only run the HotR normal dungeons a handful of times.

Because of these factors, I don't have access to all of the 'BIS' gear and will only ever be deemed, at best, a 'mediocre' player by a lot of players (even though I am nearing 1000 CP), who simply think it is my fault because I need to 'git gud'.

This I can live with, but I cannot stand it when people preach, from their ivory towers, that everything in the game is easy and intimate that if someone cannot complete content, it is their own fault.

wsmith97ub17_ESO wrote: »

All of your recommendations are mostly power creep issues the devs are trying to avoid. I dont like mmos that use that typical method of artificial "end game".

Explain?

I think the problem is ESO is trying to be too many different things:

1) an MMO with "progression". It started as one, and to this day it still advertises a competitive end game.
2) A proper Elder scrolls successor. ES has always been about exploration and discovery, not necessarily a game where you measure progress on a DPS meter.
3) A game that allows access to all levels in all zones, but still has Hard end game content. How can you have an "end game" when its all about open access?

Personally, I think they went the wrong direction with One Tam. I think they should have chosen a "Scale down" model rather then a "Scale up". GW2 uses a Scale down model, and it feel far more natural then ESO does. your characters actually feel like they're progressing, and at the same time a high level character can still play with you. skills and builds make the most impact on performance, but you still feel like your getting better. I can equip a higher level weapon in GW2, and I can see the damage difference. In ESO it's really hard to tell.

outside of that, ESO will never have an end game typical of other progression MMO's, unless they actually make progression a thing. You actually don't progress in the game...if you look at a level 1 weapon on a level 1 character, and a CP160 weapon on a CP 160 character, the damage range is really close (same weapon type/quality). I'm leveling multiple characters atm, and you don't feel like your progressing. Quite the contrary, you feel like your upgrades are to prevent you from losing the performance you are at. I can literally equip a weapon at my level, and 5 levels later it does less damage, and I need a new one to get back to what I had before. doesn't feel very good.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Don’t look at this like another traditional MMO RPG that you’ve played.

They are intentional to offer adventures but the design now isn’t heavily weighted on adding more content for levels (whatever the new max is)

So, what is the design?

Corrinos wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Don’t look at this like another traditional MMO RPG that you’ve played.

They are intentional to offer adventures but the design now isn’t heavily weighted on adding more content for levels (whatever the new max is)

So, what is the design?

@Corrinos



(Old) https://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/19/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview-paul-sage/

Once you hit level 50, you can choose to journey to another alliance's territory and experience a more difficult (and rewarding) version of those areas. After you complete the story within in the second alliance, you can travel to the third faction and complete the content there.

According to Sage, this content is the endgame for a solo player or someone who plays with just a friend or two. Since the Elder Scrolls franchise has been a single-player affair up until this point, it's wise to include scads of content for that audience. It's also ideal for the player who wants to soak up all of the lore and learn the history of Tamriel 1000 years before the events of Skyrim. With each alliance area containing 120-150 hours of content, there's a lot of exploring to do.

The endgame for a small group of friends can be the instanced dungeons found in the world. There is a four-player dungeon in each of the game's 16 zones; most dungeons boast a second level 50 version with a different storyline. Small groups of friends can spend countless hours refining strategies and accruing rewards in the nearly 30 different dungeon experiences ESO will have at launch.

When I asked Sage about raiding, he said that ESO's adventure zones are designed for larger groups of PvE players. You can actually go into the adventure zones with a small group and accomplish some goals, but there are large areas in these maps dedicated to larger group experiences. There will be some warning when you're about to trigger one of these encounters (and they may even end up instanced), so a small group won't suddenly find itself face to face with a Daedric Prince!

The last pillar in ESO's endgame is the Alliance War, which is designed with the PvP player in mind. Players of all three factions will meet in Cyrodiil (a zone roughly nine times the size of a normal map) to wrestle over keeps, resources, and bragging rights.

(Recent)Endgame - https://www.somosxbox.com/en/interview-with-matt-firor-head-of-the-elder-scrolls-online-morrowind/744579

How does this new content affect the endgame?

”Because ESO content isn’t gated by levels, players can participate in what are usually termed “end game” systems at almost any time after creating their character. Dungeons, PvP, Veteran Dungeons, and even Trials can be enjoyed by any player over level 10. So, because of this, the introduction of great storylines and quests in ESO: Morrowind has little or no effect on those types of player activities – with a couple of big exceptions. ESO: Morrowind features a new 12-man Trial called Halls of Fabrication and, of course, it introduces a new PvP system – our 4v4v4 Battlegrounds”.

wsmith97ub17_ESO wrote: »

All of your recommendations are mostly power creep issues the devs are trying to avoid. I dont like mmos that use that typical method of artificial "end game".

What does "artificial endgame" even mean?