maxjapank wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Well, there is the answer then......a large consistently playing guild who doesn't strategically play for their faction, but attacking "whoever is high pop" without regard to score opportunity or consideration of what faction leads camp will greatly lower the chance for your faction to win any camps.

maxjapank wrote: »

TKG is completely loyal to AD. We have been since we moved back to support a 1-bar pop, non-existent AD Oceanic faction. If you need any confirmation, just ask the other long-time standing AD Oceanic guilds like Queen's RAM and Nocturnal. We do not play for a campaign win. So sorry. But we have always helped AD take back the map as soon as we log on. We have always helped defeat any EP or DC emp pushes, like we did against EP last night.

I have to say, I agree with Soul Demon on this (minus the argument you two are having). I'm well aware that TKG is a major force for AD when I log on to play EP during my mornings. I never mind fighting TKG. I get good fights from TKG - sometimes I win and sometimes I lose. That's how PVP is. Not a problem.

However, if you are looking at it from the perspective on "What does it take to win campaigns?" having a active guild forming most of your organized presence in a certain time slot that outright says "We do not play for a campaign win" has to account for some of the problem.

I'm not trying to knock TKG here or persuade you to change your playstyle. I'm a firm believer that every form of PVP is valid as long as people are having fun and there aren't any exploits going on. There are definitely nights when I don't push to win the campaign and instead I potato up for the run from Chalman to Ales or settle down to farm on the Alessia Bridge. TKG should play how TKG wants to play. You can absolutely be loyal to your faction and still not play to win a campaign.

But winning campaigns takes a faction wide effort to win campaigns. If you want to start winning campaigns, your major organized presences on the map have got to play like they want to win the campaign. If you don't play to win a camapign as a whole faction, don't be surprised when you don't win a campaign.

Well...I invite you to reread what has been said in this thread regarding TKG. Like how when we log on, we are often leading the charge taking back anywhere from BB, BM, Fare, Roe. AD usually has has nothing as they were pummeled by both EP and DC in the previous hours when AD was only at one bar population. Perhaps this is also one main reason why EP and AD have higher scores? Taking advantage of greatly outnumbering the enemy. I mean come on. You are talking "strategy" and yes pvedooring the map is a strategy. But don't claim it's anything other than capping empty keeps.

If you want to win campaigns, look at the strategies that work and copy them. If you aren't willing to adopt strategies that win campaigns, whatever those are, don't be surprised when you don't win campaigns.

The only strategy is capping resources before evaluation ticks. As I've said. Is there really anything else? You seem to be agreeing with Joy's "exploiting" comment. No offense Joy. But somehow disagreeing with me. I mean honestly. "Look at the strategies that work and copy them?" There are no "strategies". Just taking advantage of 3 areas which I said:

1) capping resources before each evaluation tick
2) capping the map when you greatly outnumber the enemy
3) capping the map before maintenance times so you get ticks even when the game is offline.

Every single campaign for the last year has been won this way. And it doesn't require much pvping to do.

I think the only disagreement is that you seem to think that the things you listed aren't strategies? Whereas I'm saying that if you think those things you listed are strategies (to use the mechanics that ZOS uses to determine score to get higher scores) that will win the campaign , then by all means, use them if you want to win the campaign.

I think we just differ in terminology. (And let's be honest, if I think there are any other strategies that help win campaigns, I'm not going to share them with you, being a loyal EP player.)

maxjapank wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Well, there is the answer then......a large consistently playing guild who doesn't strategically play for their faction, but attacking "whoever is high pop" without regard to score opportunity or consideration of what faction leads camp will greatly lower the chance for your faction to win any camps.

maxjapank wrote: »

TKG is completely loyal to AD. We have been since we moved back to support a 1-bar pop, non-existent AD Oceanic faction. If you need any confirmation, just ask the other long-time standing AD Oceanic guilds like Queen's RAM and Nocturnal. We do not play for a campaign win. So sorry. But we have always helped AD take back the map as soon as we log on. We have always helped defeat any EP or DC emp pushes, like we did against EP last night.

I have to say, I agree with Soul Demon on this (minus the argument you two are having). I'm well aware that TKG is a major force for AD when I log on to play EP during my mornings. I never mind fighting TKG. I get good fights from TKG - sometimes I win and sometimes I lose. That's how PVP is. Not a problem.

However, if you are looking at it from the perspective on "What does it take to win campaigns?" having a active guild forming most of your organized presence in a certain time slot that outright says "We do not play for a campaign win" has to account for some of the problem.

I'm not trying to knock TKG here or persuade you to change your playstyle. I'm a firm believer that every form of PVP is valid as long as people are having fun and there aren't any exploits going on. There are definitely nights when I don't push to win the campaign and instead I potato up for the run from Chalman to Ales or settle down to farm on the Alessia Bridge. TKG should play how TKG wants to play. You can absolutely be loyal to your faction and still not play to win a campaign.

But winning campaigns takes a faction wide effort to win campaigns. If you want to start winning campaigns, your major organized presences on the map have got to play like they want to win the campaign. If you don't play to win a camapign as a whole faction, don't be surprised when you don't win a campaign.

Well...I invite you to reread what has been said in this thread regarding TKG. Like how when we log on, we are often leading the charge taking back anywhere from BB, BM, Fare, Roe. AD usually has has nothing as they were pummeled by both EP and DC in the previous hours when AD was only at one bar population. Perhaps this is also one main reason why EP and AD have higher scores? Taking advantage of greatly outnumbering the enemy. I mean come on. You are talking "strategy" and yes pvedooring the map is a strategy. But don't claim it's anything other than capping empty keeps.

If you want to win campaigns, look at the strategies that work and copy them. If you aren't willing to adopt strategies that win campaigns, whatever those are, don't be surprised when you don't win campaigns.

The only strategy is capping resources before evaluation ticks. As I've said. Is there really anything else? You seem to be agreeing with Joy's "exploiting" comment. No offense Joy. But somehow disagreeing with me. I mean honestly. "Look at the strategies that work and copy them?" There are no "strategies". Just taking advantage of 3 areas which I said:

1) capping resources before each evaluation tick
2) capping the map when you greatly outnumber the enemy
3) capping the map before maintenance times so you get ticks even when the game is offline.

Every single campaign for the last year has been won this way. And it doesn't require much pvping to do.

I think the only disagreement is that you seem to think that the things you listed aren't strategies? Whereas I'm saying that if you think those things you listed are strategies (to use the mechanics that ZOS uses to determine score to get higher scores) that will win the campaign , then by all means, use them if you want to win the campaign.

I think we just differ in terminology. (And let's be honest, if I think there are any other strategies that help win campaigns, I'm not going to share them with you, being a loyal EP player.)

I can accept this response. And no, I don't consider them strategies. They are more exploits to a silly point system. Though they are the key to winning a campaign.

But as you compared Cyrodiil to coaches and teams showing up to win vs. teams showing up to do their best, it all comes down to what winning means to you. There is absolutely no way that TKG is going to win the campaign for AD unless we spend our time pvedooring the map every night and pushing both blue and red to their gates until they log off. We don't do that.

We have experienced this happen once when we were originally AD and yellow was killing the campaign. We would log on to a pure yellow map with nothing to do. So we switched to the underdog at the time, blue. And then eventually, blue began to do the same to AD. And again we would log on to a entire blue map with nothing to do.

Both red and blue will complain about us sometimes. We are strong and as one player who is now a member said, "it was tiring playing against you and getting beat all the time." I get the feeling that one person in this thread got mopped a few times too many. But regardless, if we didn't support AD during our timezone, AD would likely log off and blue and red would only have themselves to fight.

Right now, Oceanic is perhaps the best balanced playing field out of all timezones. We log in after a day of work, go at it, and feel satisfied that there was plenty of action to be had. Oceanic is a timezone that takes care of itself.

Sounds like you are playing hard and having fun. Since that's what I aim to do myself, I can't complain about that.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Edit for: "First of all YOU don't make the rules. You are not god who decides what can and can't be done. Stop acting like one. People can do whetever they want in the game as long as they abide by the rules. Gank, smallscale, zerg, organised raids, take keeps, don't take keeps, 1vx, xv1. You can do whatever you want."

No, I am a poster who has responded to a question.....whereas you have forgotten that and are reaching for some way to salvage a poorly thought out 'counter' to an opinion you disagree with. You need to settle down and focus.

I did not mean any disrespect so I will backup my arguments more accurately for you.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Guilds like TKG on AD actually play for DC- guessing that is a major problem for your faction actually winning any camps. Large, present guilds that don't actually play for you faction will inevitably fail to push for the win if their loyalties lay elsewhere. Matter of fact, just this am TKG is handing over scrolls from EP to DC when they are doing their daily PvDoor on Vivec. If you were unaware of this daily routine, you might want to speak to them about the "strategy" they are employing by "assisting" DC with keep holds from EP and "handing" over scrolls to them.....personally I see no strategic value in what they do, but to empower DC's point spread on a daily basis. But, never know....maybe they are simply unaware that is the effect of helping DC protect keeps and turning over EP scrolls to DC when they are the only ones on in force. Guess asking them would be a good start.

False. Your words are just speculation. Do not pretend that you know facts. You are not associated with TKG and don't know the reasons behind their decision making. I do. So I will tell you the real truth. Firstly TKG is a loyal guild to AD. We do not support keep trading, scroll trading or any similar thing of any kind. We do not support any sort of exploit or cheating of any kind. We play to have fun and challenge ourselves and others to the limit. To achieve a level of challenge we undertake measured steps to bring the challenge to us. Be that taking a keep or a scroll and holding it. Regarding scrolls, we either bring them to an AD keep ourselves or drop them off for another AD group to take them. We certainly do not do any trades with other factions of any kind.

And to clear up and misconceptions regarding the faction swap. We use to be on DC. We swapped to AD because DC was over populated and lacked any sort of challenge. Meanwhile AD was struggling and had limited support.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

a large consistently playing guild who doesn't strategically play for their faction, but attacking "whoever is high pop" without regard to score opportunity or consideration of what faction leads camp will greatly lower the chance for your faction to win any camps.

False. For oceanic players logging in at the start of the night the map is usually covered in blue or a mix of blue and red with yellow having just the base keeps give or take. At the end of the night TKG actively raids the map looks mostly yellow. We even get emp every few days with the help of the rest of the faction pushing with us. If you login and play during our time you will see this happening on a consistent basis.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

My assessment stands- when you take up space in an alliance and DONT play to win or manage the map you are dead weight players and don't add to the overall effort. Players and guilds who do this waste the pop cap of that faction by showing up making excuses about why they don't support the war effort and camp win, as you just did.

False. There is no such thing as "play to win or manage the map" That's no way to play the game or have any sort of enjoyment. We play to have fun and do what fits on the given day, which ends up helping the faction. Major organised guilds are the backbone of any faction. A. They initiate key objectives such as keep takes that would otherwise be not possible with pugs. B. They are able to take on greater numbers, usually 2x+ their own. This means that the efficiency per player is increased which allows for easier pug pushed while the opposition is busy with an organised guild. C. They bring a sense of purpose to the game. A challenge. Who wants to have just skirmishes back and forth all day. It gets old quickly. There are others but this is enough. I challenge you do outline key items why you think this is not the case.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

As with any assumption not only are you wrong, but spectacularly so. I responded to a question with my comments and back them up with observations of said guild over the last year or so. You on the other hand you come in spewing insults and then confirmed what I observed and proceed to tell me now that I should pay attention to thee posters- because as we all know if you have your guild post in forums it becomes fact. No.

Next you will have one of them start "best guilds NA" thread and they will all come in under forum alts to post of the greatness of the guild, because no one ever sees through that one. Right.

To reiterate TKG are not some "best guild". We do not boast about our skill. We simply enjoy the game and play to the best of our ability. You say you have observed the guild over the last year. Well so has most of the oceanic player base. TKG is widely known. That does not give the right to turn observations into speculation and go and make false statements. I am not writing this to make a "TKG presence", I am writing this to show that TKG has dedicated players who are loyal to their faction and who support the faction whenever we play. I am a core member and run with the raid most nights. What you see here are facts and a true representation of the guild.

edited spelling.

Sacredx wrote: »

False. There is no such thing as "play to win or manage the map" That's no way to play the game or have any sort of enjoyment. We play to have fun and do what fits on the given day, which ends up helping the faction. Major organised guilds are the backbone of any faction. A. They initiate key objectives such as keep takes that would otherwise be not possible with pugs. B. They are able to take on greater numbers, usually 2x+ their own. This means that the efficiency per player is increased which allows for easier pug pushed while the opposition is busy with an organised guild. C. They bring a sense of purpose to the game. A challenge. Who wants to have just skirmishes back and forth all day. It gets old quickly. There are others but this is enough. I challenge you do outline key items why you think this is not the case.

Its quite possible to do everything you talked about guilds doing,

"Major organised guilds are the backbone of any faction. A. They initiate key objectives such as keep takes that would otherwise be not possible with pugs. B. They are able to take on greater numbers, usually 2x+ their own. This means that the efficiency per player is increased which allows for easier pug pushed while the opposition is busy with an organised guild. C. They bring a sense of purpose to the game."

And still play to win the campaign and manage the map.

Now, not everyone finds that fun. I do (most of the time) and so I've chosen to play with an organized guild where I get to do all the things you rightly said that organized guilds do AND play to win the campaign and manage the map. It does take a faction effort, of course. I'm going to get tired very quickly if I'm playing to win and manage the map and the rest of EP is in full potato mode.

I'm sure you'll understand why I'm not going to discuss any particulars about "playing to win or manage the map" because I'm loyal to EP. I'm just going to suggest that EP didn't win 7 or 8 campaigns on Vivec in a row and DC hasn't won the last 2(?) simply by showing up and playing hard wherever there are good fights. If you don't want to copy the sorts of strategies you've seen those factions use to rack up points, that's fine and totally up to you. To each his or her own style of PVP.

You used my words to make your point. I rest my case.

Sacredx wrote: »

You used my words to make your point. I rest my case.

You say, "There is no such thing as "play to win or manage the map" That's no way to play the game or have any sort of enjoyment. We play to have fun and do what fits on the given day, which ends up helping the faction. "

Those of us who have, in fact, played to win campaigns and managed the map and had fun doing so are fully aware that its possible to do. It may not be fun for you, and that's fine. You are the boss of you and you decide what's a fun PVP playstyle. But I know what's fun for me, and I'm quite capable of having fun while playing to win and managing the map. I don't always succeed, but that's the nature of PVP - no battle plan survives contact with the enemy. Its certainly possible and its been done, and I, at least, have fun doing it. Thank goodness PVP allows for variety of playstyles.


But to bring this back around to the main question of the thread "Why can't AD win?"

Whenever the players of a faction adopt this idea "There is no such thing as "play to win or manage the map" That's no way to play the game or have any sort of enjoyment. We play to have fun and do what fits on the given day"...

They start losing to the factions who can and who will focus on gaining points and managing the map to win the campaign. That's true of EP, DC and AD. There's a lot of EP that have that mentality and I'm fine with that. I try not to dictate how people spend their time in a video game. On the other hand, playing to win by focusing on points and managing the map is possible in Cyrodiil and the alliances that do it consistently win campaigns. Some players have that mentality and I see that played out in game.

However, if you want to win campaigns, you have to do what it takes to win campaigns.

"I'm just looking for good fights" doesn't win campaigns.
"I'm just looking to kill players and have fun" doesn't win campaigns.
"I'm here to gank/bomb/farm Alessia bridge/run the Chalman-Bleakers-Aleswell loop for hours" doesn't win campaigns.
Those are all valid playstyles in Cyrodiil, but they don't win campaigns.

Play how you like. Have fun playing. But if you want to win campaigns, focus on the points (and some of us have fun doing that).

CyrusArya wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

It's not really about winning the campaign. Many players from all factions don't particularly care anymore. I think most of the "strategic" resource flipping is actually just otick farming. Even though I play the map and want to win the campaign, that is secondary to fun battles.

I am *definitely* not going to make a habit of flipping undefended opposition resources I don't intend to defend only for scoreboard points. If I want to PVE, I'll do it in a PVE zone.

The true issue is combat parity. That's where AD has struggled. For us to have good fights, we need somewhat even teams.

I haven't really played enough over the past few months to judge the larger picture. I played a few very long sessions recently and found that certain intervals have improved, but AD seems to have too few competent small-mid sized groups. We tend to focus on guilds and large groups in these discussions, but at any given moment I would say that most groups are not guild groups.

I’ll tell you my honest opinion on this may it be insightful. I have characters on all three factions, though dc is definitely Home base. The reason I, and as I suspect many people, far prefer to play DC and EP in the small scale crowd is that for the most part AD is hella lame. There are just too many players and guilds on AD that I would much, much rather kill than play along side. Don’t have to name any names, but I’m sure anyone who plays dc or ad know exactly which xv1 gankers and zerg guilds and furry role players I’m referring to. AD’s player base is just simply uninspiring. When I do play AD sometimes it’s with Adamant who I think is one of the coolest crews of all time. AD also has the newly minted Cheese Engine who I enjoy and some other cool/competent groups like Manoe’s zerg. But all in all, all the “dominant” ad zerg guilds and prolific Xv1ers tip the scale far too much for me to ever consider seriously playing there. And I do believe many people feel the same way. Don’t get me wrong all factions have these elements. AD are just the most obnoxious.

This ends up creating a strong negative feedback loop for AD where people who enjoy the small scale scene and wanna play with like minded individuals are far more likely to feel at home on DC and EP which ends up attracting small scale types to these factions- old and new alike.

Maybe the time of day we play might make the difference but I find dc to be the most obnoxious zerg wise as of late. Especially late night/early morning eastern. I know your crews don't faction stack (which is great) so maybe you don't see this.

Ever noticed that almost everyone who rips on the few groups AD has, and or runs off to join the easy mode sides all have a lot of excuses as to why they never do the things they think should be so easy?

Nor do they show any sign of doing anything but running off to hide behind the guys who don't need the help? Usually because of drama llamas who make things 'toxic'? Drama llamas who conveniently are to be found on the same sides as certain someones. Someones who claim that's why they're not helping whichever side actually needs the backup...

Because a certain khajiit may or may not have noticed this. They maybe also mock such silly elves a great deal for leaving that trail of 'zergling yellow' in their wake.

But a certain someone who calls themselves khajiit might also be happy to be proven wrong. Perhaps by seeing these people live up to their own standards. Preferabbly with music videos featuring snappy pop music. And Bon Jovi.

Also that roe defense today was epically long and well done. Telel just wishes they could have been there to help. Sadly the three of us had to light other keeps so the wall sitters would come and stand on the flags.

Telel approved of the TKG change to AD many months ago. As Telel wears a very spiffy helmet when streaming this makes their approval greater than anyone who likes to fight at Alessia.

Khajiit has now ended this argument with khajiit wisdom.

Can we now go back to agreeing that most of the doberhuahua cummerbund are silly and salty, and that EP bridge bait comprise most of the 'toxic' chat in the Dumbminion side?

Seriously this one got a hate tell from a group of tower farmers after they'd wiped out a PUG with only 3 CP720 players in it. One of whom was on a new toon, and another over 60. How silly must an elfish sort be to get mad at winning?

Maybe it was the fact they could only seem to kill the CP10 guy with any real speed...which they did repeatedly and with surprising accuracy.

Earthewen wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

You used my words to make your point. I rest my case.

I have been lurking here and reading your comments, but from what I can tell, most of them lack any kind of credibility. I have watched TKG for some time as I do most of the guilds out there on all sides. I don't see them doing anything that is strategically logical. If you want to farm AP, just be honest about it. If you want to pvdoor during low pop times, just be honest about it. I see several AD however that will make their way to the north side of the map and hit EP while EP is already engaged with DC. That's kind of a vulture move. Its really easy to hit a team in the back while they are already engaged with the other faction. I see similar behavior from DC, and then when EP dies, I see AD back off and DC back off and NOT HIT EACH OTHER. Now explain that one, because I'd love to hear your explanation for that, because your claim is that you are holding folks busy for your other group to hit keeps. To that, I say, "FALSE." Because hitting a group that IS ALREADY ENGAGED isn't you holding us busy. We were already busy. That's just AP farming. Please don't pretend to be the saints in the game when you really aren't. Whatever your claim is to "motive", I think you might be a little delusional about them.

The truth and the facts are that if your goal is to AP farm, you are NOT EVER going to win the campaign. Winning a campaign requires faction loyalty, map management, and a desire to do good teamwork. And while you are loyal to your TKG, I have every right to wonder about faction loyalty and any logically thinking person would.

Don't take my word for it, look at all the other posts backing TKG and I invite you to come and watch us live on Twitch so that you can be better informed. We don't farm ap, it's not even a priority. I couldn't care less if I made 0 ap for the night if it was a fun night filled with pvp.

We do not come to these forums acting like we know all the facts about other people or other guilds and spread speculations around. What you are reading right now is the real deal, not second hand rumours or guesses. We are passionate about pvp and we use that passion to motivate our group to perform at its highest capacity to improvise, adapt and overcome the opposition. We set high standards because the sky is the limit and we push ourselves to that limit.

Sacredx wrote: »

Earthewen wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

You used my words to make your point. I rest my case.

I have been lurking here and reading your comments, but from what I can tell, most of them lack any kind of credibility. I have watched TKG for some time as I do most of the guilds out there on all sides. I don't see them doing anything that is strategically logical. If you want to farm AP, just be honest about it. If you want to pvdoor during low pop times, just be honest about it. I see several AD however that will make their way to the north side of the map and hit EP while EP is already engaged with DC. That's kind of a vulture move. Its really easy to hit a team in the back while they are already engaged with the other faction. I see similar behavior from DC, and then when EP dies, I see AD back off and DC back off and NOT HIT EACH OTHER. Now explain that one, because I'd love to hear your explanation for that, because your claim is that you are holding folks busy for your other group to hit keeps. To that, I say, "FALSE." Because hitting a group that IS ALREADY ENGAGED isn't you holding us busy. We were already busy. That's just AP farming. Please don't pretend to be the saints in the game when you really aren't. Whatever your claim is to "motive", I think you might be a little delusional about them.

The truth and the facts are that if your goal is to AP farm, you are NOT EVER going to win the campaign. Winning a campaign requires faction loyalty, map management, and a desire to do good teamwork. And while you are loyal to your TKG, I have every right to wonder about faction loyalty and any logically thinking person would.

Don't take my word for it, look at all the other posts backing TKG and I invite you to come and watch us live on Twitch so that you can be better informed. We don't farm ap, it's not even a priority. I couldn't care less if I made 0 ap for the night if it was a fun night filled with pvp.

We do not come to these forums acting like we know all the facts about other people or other guilds and spread speculations around. What you are reading right now is the real deal, not second hand rumours or guesses. We are passionate about pvp and we use that passion to motivate our group to perform at its highest capacity to improvise, adapt and overcome the opposition. We set high standards because the sky is the limit and we push ourselves to that limit.

Please keep in mind what the OP asked and what the subject is. The subject isn't necessarily TKG unless TKG is the entirety of AD. Is TKG AD? Yes. Are they the entire faction? No. In fact as far as I can tell, they are only a very small part of AD specifically. From what I'm reading from AD players themselves, they are having a great deal of difficulty right now winning anything because they are basically a lot of guilds or loose players lacking any kind of real leadership. That, indeed, is a problem and regrettable. My apologizes for being unclear that it was ALL of AD that I was referring to.

To be sure, I love a good fight, too and I don't fault anyone for wanting one. However, if those good fights do nothing strategically, then are they really good fights or are they just doing more of the same thing that is consistently losing campaigns?

I still don't care about the campaign score. Zos make me care

Sacredx wrote: »

Well if you want to bring it back to the OP there is simply no incentive to get the highest score to win the campaign. Until zos changes the reward system it will simply not be a priority. People go where the action is, where the swords are on the map to pvp. If that happens to be a keep then that's where the battle will take place and the keep may flip sides as a result. But let me be clear, the motivation to "win the campaign" is not the reason for taking that keep. Fighting the opposition and winning the battle is the primary motivator.

To sum it up, the root cause of the points mentioned in OP are as a result of a sub-par reward system for winning the campaign, which elevates other more motivational reasons to pvp in front of the win condition.

Pretty much sums it up, make the rewards worth fighting for, items that can only be obtained through ava, though this would make PvE only players stamp their little feet and go red in the face. There needs to be a far greater incentive to win, something like master type weapons or such, but it needs to be a reward that is unique and only available through winning a campaign.