End Game PVE Progression nonexistent?

Anotherone773 · February 2018

zaria wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I like the concept of One tamriel. Its a great starting point, but it also hinders progression severely. Instead of beating the dead horse of One Tamriel further into oblivion, they need to create a hybrid system. Leave One Tamriel for current content, switch CP back to levels, and all new content needs to be level based. When you enter One Tamriel zones you are leveled down to the max level of One Tamriel. Everywhere else, you are whatever level you are at.

Every game has progression, but this one. They tried to reinvent the wheel and made it oval. The wheel doesnt need reinventing, it just needs to be done right. Horizontal progression gets boring after awhile and achieves just dont cut it for most people. An achieve, in my opinion, is just something to stroke you ego with. Its like running on a treadmill and then patting yourself on the back because you didnt fall off. You expended a lot of energy running, but went no where.

ESO is basically farmville with combat. Its a social, RP game that you occasionally whack something to death in because it was standing on the flowers you want to pick for one of your 874 houses. Give it another 5 years and we can change the name to Extreme Housing Online because thats all there will be in the end game. Bosses will drop furniture because everyone stopped caring about another set of gear that isnt really any different than the set they got on. PVP will be known as the Deco Wars. Instead of fighting, it will be a contest to see who decorate a house properly the fastest. Trials will no longer be about killing mobs and raid style bosses. Instead, it will be a fashion show.Who can design the best spring costume with the trendiest color scheme?

WOW is gear level based, you tend to have one or two relevant sets for class at the gear level you are at.
You can grind dungeons to get raid level gear. At least that was how it was back then I played.
Then they added new tires and then an new expansion.

ESO is set based, dungeons tend to have 3 sets one in each weight and an monster set.
Different sets has different benefits, yes some are bad and some are good but its lots of variation.
I don't see how your idea should work at all.
Yes you could go back to how it was during veteran levels, group content is scaled to leader, from time to time you get an new level who you grinded asap then get mostly the same sets of the new level.
Yes that sounds fun

They could not do the WOW system releasing expansions with new series of dungeons and new sets, ESO is to grapical complex and fully voiced making it way to much work to do this.

When i stopped playing WoW, you had dungeon gear, t1 raid, t2 raid and i think t3 raid. I never said go back to vet levels. Again reinventing the wheel. Dungeons dont need to be scaled to anyone. You do dungeons your level and move on. this is progression. You progress through dungeons rather than have everything available all the time.

Sets have different benefits. Its like saying this car comes in 20 colors with 4 trim options. Its STILL this car, its not different than the one sitting next to it, its just a different color with leather seats instead of cloth. That is EXACTLY what you talking about with sets. Im talking about moving on to a different model of car. I started out in a smart for two, lets progress to a ford focus or at least a mini cooper.

Your last statement makes no sense. The leveling system in a game has absolutely zero to do with graphics and being fully voiced. Your comparing apples to cheese. And ive played MMOs that have had beautiful graphics and a far superior character system to ESO or WOW.

Its like ESO did everything right that WoW did wrong. But did everything wrong that WoW did right. WoW had really good BGs. They were well thought out, fun to play and each one felt different. ESO BGs are arenas with a lot of annoy objects everywhere placed for collision. They are all basically the same BG even the types of matches are unimaginative and boring. WoW has awesome dungeons and raids and a good dungeon and raid finder. ESO dungeons are a mess. They just have a really sloppy feel to them. They feel cluttered with trash but you have to sprint 20 seconds between mobs.

WoWs world is pretty close to useless. Its basic and unimaginative. ESO's world is awesome with zones being entertaining to be in. WOW has terrible gear progression. Its very unbalanced progressing to the next level of gear. ESO has no gear progression. Its the same gear with a slightly different benefit. its not any better than the last 30 sets they came out with, just different.

Wow content isnt nearly as buggy and they fix it in a timely manner. It takes forever for anything to get fixed in ESO, if it gets fixed at all and when it does get fixed it will probably break three other things.

Fake progression in ESO may work for some people, but a majority of the gaming community prefers vertical progression. They want to gain levels and they want their level to matter when compared to someone that is only 3/4 of their level. They want their level to matter compared to mobs. If this mob is to hard now, they want to be able to come back in two levels and kick its butt.

There is a reason why all other MMOs have a vertical progression system, because that is what works and what players enjoy. And players are more likely to pay for an xpack if it has vertical progression rather than just different zones, same levels and skills.

zaria · February 2018

Saturn wrote: »

PvE Endgame isn't non-existent, but, it is a tiny fraction of the game's population, and yes it's mostly about re-running tired content over and over, although there are challenges in obtaining the HM completions (and associated achievements) when new trials come out, which isn't something to scoff at. Though as you say, there is very little that's enticing about doing trials as most of the BiS gear for any given class is usually obtainable without having to even enter them, with a few exceptions.

While I don't wish for a progression system like in BDO, I do also wish there were some way to get stronger, as for example legendary weapons, similar to WoW maybe, but I also wish they would actually spend some time talking to the endgame players and figure out what kind of sets would be good. I don't think it's unfair to bar the best gear behind the hardest content, but for some reason that doesn't seem to be something ZOS concerns themselves with. In fact it's quite obvious they only cater to their main demographic, the casual players.

If they actually cared about making endgame great they would spend more time on the trials, and they would also have added a lot more, as opposed to the 6 that have been added since the release in 2014, which, not to mention, were 3 in 2014, none in 2015, 1 in 2016, and 2 in 2017. Very few dungeons have been added as well, and they are only added 2 at a time. Compare ESO's content additions over the course of nearly four years with other MMOs and you'll see the problem.

When you look at the PvP scene you will see a similar pattern of neglect, or rather, a worse pattern. The bread and butter of ESO are its quests, and the vast majority of content additions have been this kind of content. This wouldn't be so bad if we were talking about a singleplayer game, but for an MMO that's a serious lack of foresight, as this kind of content has little to no replayability.

I like a lot of the things about ESO, like the combat, the visuals and so on, and I think if they actually focused on the endgame, both PvE and PvP, they could actually make this an amazing MMO, instead of if being what it is. Unfortunately ZOS has made themselves a stable income based on casual players, who want everything immediately, and Crown Store whales, who buy enough crown crates to obtain every item available, so they would likely not take the necessary steps to ensure the endgame got any better as it would mean not catering to their main target demographic, and therefore would initially lose them revenue, before they could gather a larger playerbase interested in endgame.

I seriously doubt much will change about the way the game is handled, because I've seen a hundred threads like this since launch, and they still haven't budged.

Now I fully agree they should ramp up the releases of more dungeons and trials, its benefit all.

TheDarkShadow · February 2018

If there are 5 casual players for every 1 hardcore gamer like you, and they all spend the same money, then ZOS will have to slow progression down for the majority customers.

Praeficere · February 2018

This is a social game now, you log in every 3 months for 2-3 days on the new patch to catch up with old buddies and run the new content

Catamountlite · February 2018

It depends on what you want for endgame. Determining that is where you need to start, then you can assess it. I personally like that I can make a character, and then experience the story. Travel and explore and group with people on all the content regardless of level without being forced to follow a path. If that is not what you want for endgame then you're probably not really going to be in to this game. However it is nice not to have to race to get the latest gear, kill the newest boss and just look at the story and such, I can go to many other games and get that.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2018

zaria wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

PvE Endgame isn't non-existent, but, it is a tiny fraction of the game's population, and yes it's mostly about re-running tired content over and over, although there are challenges in obtaining the HM completions (and associated achievements) when new trials come out, which isn't something to scoff at. Though as you say, there is very little that's enticing about doing trials as most of the BiS gear for any given class is usually obtainable without having to even enter them, with a few exceptions.

While I don't wish for a progression system like in BDO, I do also wish there were some way to get stronger, as for example legendary weapons, similar to WoW maybe, but I also wish they would actually spend some time talking to the endgame players and figure out what kind of sets would be good. I don't think it's unfair to bar the best gear behind the hardest content, but for some reason that doesn't seem to be something ZOS concerns themselves with. In fact it's quite obvious they only cater to their main demographic, the casual players.

If they actually cared about making endgame great they would spend more time on the trials, and they would also have added a lot more, as opposed to the 6 that have been added since the release in 2014, which, not to mention, were 3 in 2014, none in 2015, 1 in 2016, and 2 in 2017. Very few dungeons have been added as well, and they are only added 2 at a time. Compare ESO's content additions over the course of nearly four years with other MMOs and you'll see the problem.

When you look at the PvP scene you will see a similar pattern of neglect, or rather, a worse pattern. The bread and butter of ESO are its quests, and the vast majority of content additions have been this kind of content. This wouldn't be so bad if we were talking about a singleplayer game, but for an MMO that's a serious lack of foresight, as this kind of content has little to no replayability.

I like a lot of the things about ESO, like the combat, the visuals and so on, and I think if they actually focused on the endgame, both PvE and PvP, they could actually make this an amazing MMO, instead of if being what it is. Unfortunately ZOS has made themselves a stable income based on casual players, who want everything immediately, and Crown Store whales, who buy enough crown crates to obtain every item available, so they would likely not take the necessary steps to ensure the endgame got any better as it would mean not catering to their main target demographic, and therefore would initially lose them revenue, before they could gather a larger playerbase interested in endgame.

I seriously doubt much will change about the way the game is handled, because I've seen a hundred threads like this since launch, and they still haven't budged.

Now I fully agree they should ramp up the releases of more dungeons and trials, its benefit all.

I'd rather they make combat fun to play at high levels, and flesh out that endgame gameplay loop, before they do.

Then again that's wishfull thinking. Yes, more dungeons for me to conquer on normal!

zaria · February 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I like the concept of One tamriel. Its a great starting point, but it also hinders progression severely. Instead of beating the dead horse of One Tamriel further into oblivion, they need to create a hybrid system. Leave One Tamriel for current content, switch CP back to levels, and all new content needs to be level based. When you enter One Tamriel zones you are leveled down to the max level of One Tamriel. Everywhere else, you are whatever level you are at.

Every game has progression, but this one. They tried to reinvent the wheel and made it oval. The wheel doesnt need reinventing, it just needs to be done right. Horizontal progression gets boring after awhile and achieves just dont cut it for most people. An achieve, in my opinion, is just something to stroke you ego with. Its like running on a treadmill and then patting yourself on the back because you didnt fall off. You expended a lot of energy running, but went no where.

ESO is basically farmville with combat. Its a social, RP game that you occasionally whack something to death in because it was standing on the flowers you want to pick for one of your 874 houses. Give it another 5 years and we can change the name to Extreme Housing Online because thats all there will be in the end game. Bosses will drop furniture because everyone stopped caring about another set of gear that isnt really any different than the set they got on. PVP will be known as the Deco Wars. Instead of fighting, it will be a contest to see who decorate a house properly the fastest. Trials will no longer be about killing mobs and raid style bosses. Instead, it will be a fashion show.Who can design the best spring costume with the trendiest color scheme?

WOW is gear level based, you tend to have one or two relevant sets for class at the gear level you are at.
You can grind dungeons to get raid level gear. At least that was how it was back then I played.
Then they added new tires and then an new expansion.

ESO is set based, dungeons tend to have 3 sets one in each weight and an monster set.
Different sets has different benefits, yes some are bad and some are good but its lots of variation.
I don't see how your idea should work at all.
Yes you could go back to how it was during veteran levels, group content is scaled to leader, from time to time you get an new level who you grinded asap then get mostly the same sets of the new level.
Yes that sounds fun

They could not do the WOW system releasing expansions with new series of dungeons and new sets, ESO is to grapical complex and fully voiced making it way to much work to do this.

When i stopped playing WoW, you had dungeon gear, t1 raid, t2 raid and i think t3 raid. I never said go back to vet levels. Again reinventing the wheel. Dungeons dont need to be scaled to anyone. You do dungeons your level and move on. this is progression. You progress through dungeons rather than have everything available all the time.

Sets have different benefits. Its like saying this car comes in 20 colors with 4 trim options. Its STILL this car, its not different than the one sitting next to it, its just a different color with leather seats instead of cloth. That is EXACTLY what you talking about with sets. Im talking about moving on to a different model of car. I started out in a smart for two, lets progress to a ford focus or at least a mini cooper.

Your last statement makes no sense. The leveling system in a game has absolutely zero to do with graphics and being fully voiced. Your comparing apples to cheese. And ive played MMOs that have had beautiful graphics and a far superior character system to ESO or WOW.

Its like ESO did everything right that WoW did wrong. But did everything wrong that WoW did right. WoW had really good BGs. They were well thought out, fun to play and each one felt different. ESO BGs are arenas with a lot of annoy objects everywhere placed for collision. They are all basically the same BG even the types of matches are unimaginative and boring. WoW has awesome dungeons and raids and a good dungeon and raid finder. ESO dungeons are a mess. They just have a really sloppy feel to them. They feel cluttered with trash but you have to sprint 20 seconds between mobs.

WoWs world is pretty close to useless. Its basic and unimaginative. ESO's world is awesome with zones being entertaining to be in. WOW has terrible gear progression. Its very unbalanced progressing to the next level of gear. ESO has no gear progression. Its the same gear with a slightly different benefit. its not any better than the last 30 sets they came out with, just different.

Wow content isnt nearly as buggy and they fix it in a timely manner. It takes forever for anything to get fixed in ESO, if it gets fixed at all and when it does get fixed it will probably break three other things.

Fake progression in ESO may work for some people, but a majority of the gaming community prefers vertical progression. They want to gain levels and they want their level to matter when compared to someone that is only 3/4 of their level. They want their level to matter compared to mobs. If this mob is to hard now, they want to be able to come back in two levels and kick its butt.

There is a reason why all other MMOs have a vertical progression system, because that is what works and what players enjoy. And players are more likely to pay for an xpack if it has vertical progression rather than just different zones, same levels and skills.

Most of the time I spent in wow was spend grinding dungeons for currency to buy gear for, so you will do the same dungeons over an over if you do dungeons, much the same with raids but more progression here as we did not raid so often.
Guild or me never got past the t1 raid level with farming som on t2.
And yes raiding in WOW is on an way higher level than in ESO no discusion about it.
Dungeon finder also worked

Dungeons was good but not more relevant dungeons than eso dungeons as it was limited how many was for end game.
One thing I love with ESO is how dungeons increase in difficulty from CoA1 to the DLC ones who I have not done all in vet.
Difficulty for dungeons in WOW was mostly the same, most was easy like easy vet dungeons in eso, a few was harder and like eso dlc dungeons not very pugable.

Graphic has impact on how much content they can make as it takes far more work to create new content in ESO, WOW also has an far larger budget because of sub and more players. In short WOW can release more dungeons than ESO every year because of this.

I also agree on progression, harder content should overall have better gear, in eso this is very hit an miss, the new dungens has good magic gear, stamina not so much and an very good monster set.

randomkeyhits · February 2018

Much, much prefer the One Tamriel way of things.

All content, always relevant.

I say it that way I used to enjoy DCUO and saw how the progression way of things pretty much wrecked the overall game. If you were not surfing the leading edge then you had trouble getting groups going or a heavily over powered player just roflstomped it leaving the rest of you behind. They kept changing the mark earning system and then set it so you could only earn marks in your "relevancy band". Their ability to balance powersets... laughable.

So much good content that you simply had to leave behind.

At least this way with upper limits there is a chance of consistency and balance.

Mister_DMC · February 2018

There was a time that I'd agree with you but not now. Endgame PvE content while limited is very difficult. Class balance is the closest I've seen in two and a half years playing. If you can't get past a certain DPS wall that's a player issue at this point because a large variety of gear will give you very similar results. Clockwork city has been the first patch where I've seen that one gear set isn't a mile better than all others and that's a good thing.

The PvE endgame content is the dlc dungeons and trials. There actual number of players that can complete vet mazzatun, cradle, falkreath, bloodroot hardmodes is very small. The number of players that can complete the Maw of Lorkhaj on vet is even smaller and trust me I've tried to find them. Halls and asylum are also incredibly difficult. It's not that the content isn't there it's that you choose not to run it.

Less people have completed Vaa hardmode than Vmol and forget that the craglorn hardmodes even exist. You complete them for a sense of accomplishment and team building, not for arbitrary loot that makes you 0.1% tougher.

Sigtric · February 2018

Corrinos wrote: »

erickthe wrote: »

The true end game is outfits and housing.

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek, but <cringe> ZOS is about 10+ years behind the curve on that one, too. LotRO had a vastly superior housing system IMHO.

I loved LOTRO... but really? Very limited amount of items that could only go on hooks in specific places in the home was superior?

Malmai · February 2018

rophez_ESO wrote: »

I was playing the new dungeons last night when I started to remember why I have left this game off and on since beta: Nothing is really new as far as my character's progression goes. I mean the dungeons have nice new art and they're fun to run a few times as you gain the achievements, but achievements don't really make my character any better. The sets in ever new DLC are interesting, but really lateral progression at best compared to old standbys.

In fact, my character hasn't gained in power at all since day 1. If you consider the nerfs that have come in to ulti gen, blocking, etc., he's arguably less powerful than release day, even if you take into account champion points. I think that was one of the reasons for my first departure around the 1 year anniversary - I remember realizing that they were nerfing the hell out of us and giving us the ability to slowly gain back some of our power via grinding champion points. Yes, if you're guessing, my main is a DK, but I have at least 1 of every class maxed out.

I'm not big on the trialss, so I don't do them over and over, but even the people who do, and get all gold trial gear, really can't say they are much more powerful than they were a year or two ago. I mean I don't have much in the way of raid sets and I can parse 40k solo on a dummy. VMA was kind of a fun challenge at first, but it's fairly trivial to me after completing it dozens of times. And, really, only a couple of items out of there are considered "BIS" anymore.

Sorry, I'm just rambling about end game content with regard to character progression, and it just doesn't seem like there is any. The content seems more geared toward adding new places with new stories. That's cool for some people, but really it doesn't compete with single player games with regard to immersion and story. My 4 man blasted through the new content last night, and I can't honestly say what the quests were even about. So if that's your thing, that's cool, but my hook into online RPGs, is character progression, not stories that really CAN'T effect the world, because it's multi player.

I know, I know, champion points - yeah, sorry, I've been at cap a few days after each update, and really, there's nothing exciting between around 300 and 720. Anyway, there's nothing on the market right now, that I'm aware of, to run off to, but I sure wish ZOS would add some new vertical progression for characters to work on.

Some ideas:
*Weapons (artifacts) that can gain levels and abilities
*Actual abilities that are unlocked by climbing certain trees in the champion constellations - maybe even requiring a combo of branches from multiple trees.
*Spell crafting (like was promised to be in development a couple years ago before some key devs got laid off)
*Long quests/groups of quests that unlock new skills/stat boosts
*Passive buffs granted for achievements, like after killing 1000 spiders maybe you get +3% damage vs spiders

Help me out here - give ZOS some ideas for end game vertical progression!

Bind on pickup made this game horse pie and we would need ankther dlc like craglorn with lots of trials...

s7732425ub17_ESO · February 2018

Narvuntien wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

22k dps at max cp is a L2P issue and nothing really to do with progression tbh.

But there is no way to learn to play in game that is my point. I crafted and bought a pair of good sets, I use a nice buff drink and I progressed to max cp, at least I was a couple of days ago but the DLC pushed it away again.

If the game had a nice progression curve instead of slamming into a brick wall my dps would increase as I got better instead I am stuck without a way to improve.

There is this gap between the end of the skill you can reach and the skills you need to complete in end game vet content.

Just go practice on a target dummy? Like for an hour at least. And stop complaining. It's simply rotation and getting faster at it.

I did DPS testing the day the patch came out. I loaded up a CP 160 character. With bottom-of-the-barrel gear, it got 17.5k DPS on the 3 mil dummy. With top gear, it got 20k. A CP 160 character.

Ley · February 2018

One of the main reasons I like ESO is specifically because of the lack of that end game treadmill. When they add new content it just creates more diversity, rather than a new horizon for you to set out for.

Vermintide · February 2018

Corrinos wrote: »

I think the initial list was a good start. It beats grinding useless achievement points for some useless title and a probably useless dye, amirite?

What? That doesn't answer my question. I asked how long do you want it to go on for. I understand you want more stuff, but how much new stuff is enough stuff for this game to have what you consider an "endgame"?

How many weapon artefact levels is enough for you to be content with the endgame? 10? 50? 100? How many champion abilities would give you enough endgame? How many long quests- As if this game doesn't already have a crap ton?

The point I am making is that you are merely asking for more of the same, no matter how much more they add, you will never be satisfied.

Saturn · February 2018

Praeficere wrote: »

This is a social game now, you log in every 3 months for 2-3 days on the new patch to catch up with old buddies and run the new content

This is so painfully true..

Saturn · February 2018

Ley wrote: »

One of the main reasons I like ESO is specifically because of the lack of that end game treadmill. When they add new content it just creates more diversity, rather than a new horizon for you to set out for.

I don't disagree that it's nice not having to chase new gear levels all the time, but the problem is that because the lack of this exact structure, there's very little encouragement to run through content for gear, which is the main drive in other MMOs, even more so since ZOS is inept at making good sets for some reason. Like, look at the sets people run, most of them have been in the game forever, and most of the new sets are just gimmicky ones that have no real application anywhere. They should be working hard to make ESO's endgame have something that would make you interested in running it, since they don't have the same kind of gear progression as many other MMOs do. The fact that they haven't just means they probably don't care that much. Or the more worryingly, they might not know how to do such a thing. If the Asylum and Halls of Fabrication are an indicator they've certainly forgotten how to make fun trials, because they seem to think that, More Health = More Fun.

Also, it's hard to call it gear diversity, when all classes have clear BiS, with everything else being subpar by comparison. Like look at the sets people use, look at what Morrowind caused, that diversity you are talking about is a thing of the past, and even back before the sustain collapse the diversity wasn't that immense.

The main problem with ESO's endgame is the lack of progression. There's no gear progression. There's very little skill progression, at least outside of trying to beat HM trials. There aren't any legendary weapons / sets to work towards. And content is added with vast spaces inbetween either 1 at a time (trials) or 2 at a time (dungeons) every year.

Corrinos · February 2018

Sigtric wrote: »

Corrinos wrote: »

erickthe wrote: »

The true end game is outfits and housing.

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek, but <cringe> ZOS is about 10+ years behind the curve on that one, too. LotRO had a vastly superior housing system IMHO.

I loved LOTRO... but really? Very limited amount of items that could only go on hooks in specific places in the home was superior?

LoTRO is 10+ years old. They had innovations that ZOS is just now implementing or haven't at all yet.

Corrinos · February 2018

Vermintide wrote: »

Corrinos wrote: »

I think the initial list was a good start. It beats grinding useless achievement points for some useless title and a probably useless dye, amirite?

What? That doesn't answer my question. I asked how long do you want it to go on for. I understand you want more stuff, but how much new stuff is enough stuff for this game to have what you consider an "endgame"?

How many weapon artefact levels is enough for you to be content with the endgame? 10? 50? 100? How many champion abilities would give you enough endgame? How many long quests- As if this game doesn't already have a crap ton?

The point I am making is that you are merely asking for more of the same, no matter how much more they add, you will never be satisfied.

You must be either confused, purposefully obtuse, or willfully ignorant.

This is an MMO. A subscription game (ESO+ blah, blah) that is designed - in theory - to undergo perpetual and constant updates for its subscribers. To put a finite number on something is frankly ***. It's ZOS' job to come up with the ways and means to perpetuate end game - and they're failing at that job.

If you can't see that, I can't help you.

Ley · February 2018

Saturn wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

One of the main reasons I like ESO is specifically because of the lack of that end game treadmill. When they add new content it just creates more diversity, rather than a new horizon for you to set out for.

I don't disagree that it's nice not having to chase new gear levels all the time, but the problem is that because the lack of this exact structure, there's very little encouragement to run through content for gear, which is the main drive in other MMOs, even more so since ZOS is inept at making good sets for some reason. Like, look at the sets people run, most of them have been in the game forever, and most of the new sets are just gimmicky ones that have no real application anywhere. They should be working hard to make ESO's endgame have something that would make you interested in running it, since they don't have the same kind of gear progression as many other MMOs do. The fact that they haven't just means they probably don't care that much. Or the more worryingly, they might not know how to do such a thing. If the Asylum and Halls of Fabrication are an indicator they've certainly forgotten how to make fun trials, because they seem to think that, More Health = More Fun.

Also, it's hard to call it gear diversity, when all classes have clear BiS, with everything else being subpar by comparison. Like look at the sets people use, look at what Morrowind caused, that diversity you are talking about is a thing of the past, and even back before the sustain collapse the diversity wasn't that immense.

The main problem with ESO's endgame is the lack of progression. There's no gear progression. There's very little skill progression, at least outside of trying to beat HM trials. There aren't any legendary weapons / sets to work towards. And content is added with vast spaces inbetween either 1 at a time (trials) or 2 at a time (dungeons) every year.

Gear diversity doesn't necessarily have to apply only to BiS equipment. What percentage of the community do you think only consider BiS for their gear? How about their alts?

If every time new content was released the new gear for that content was BiS, it would make all the other gear become obsolete over time.

Also consider when you say BiS, what/who is it BiS for? Trials? PvP? Vet Dungeons? Magica single target? Running scrolls in Cyrodiil? Stamina AoE? Running with pugs? Soloing world bosses? Ganking in PvP? Clearing trash mobs? Resource node farming?

Then you have to consider a person's play style. A player may be willing to sacrifice a BiS set for something that suits their play style better.

Vermintide · February 2018

Corrinos wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Corrinos wrote: »

I think the initial list was a good start. It beats grinding useless achievement points for some useless title and a probably useless dye, amirite?

What? That doesn't answer my question. I asked how long do you want it to go on for. I understand you want more stuff, but how much new stuff is enough stuff for this game to have what you consider an "endgame"?

How many weapon artefact levels is enough for you to be content with the endgame? 10? 50? 100? How many champion abilities would give you enough endgame? How many long quests- As if this game doesn't already have a crap ton?

The point I am making is that you are merely asking for more of the same, no matter how much more they add, you will never be satisfied.

You must be either confused, purposefully obtuse, or willfully ignorant.

This is an MMO. A subscription game (ESO+ blah, blah) that is designed - in theory - to undergo perpetual and constant updates for its subscribers. To put a finite number on something is frankly ***. It's ZOS' job to come up with the ways and means to perpetuate end game - and they're failing at that job.

If you can't see that, I can't help you.

Here's the thing though man. It can either last forever, or it can be good. Show me a single example in the history of games where it has been both.

I get where you are coming from, I really do- one of the things I'd like to see this game do is introduce many more repeatable group challenges, a "survival arena" mode, stuff like that- but it has to be player driven, you can't just expect more numbers to endlessly keep grinding and call it a day.

The thing that makes a game like EVE so long-term appealing, for example, is that it's world is player driven, it doesn't rely on life support from the devs, and it's not just an endless +1 to this, +3 to that. Players have to build a community that makes a game worth sticking around in.

Corrinos · February 2018

Vermintide wrote: »

Corrinos wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

Corrinos wrote: »

I think the initial list was a good start. It beats grinding useless achievement points for some useless title and a probably useless dye, amirite?

What? That doesn't answer my question. I asked how long do you want it to go on for. I understand you want more stuff, but how much new stuff is enough stuff for this game to have what you consider an "endgame"?

How many weapon artefact levels is enough for you to be content with the endgame? 10? 50? 100? How many champion abilities would give you enough endgame? How many long quests- As if this game doesn't already have a crap ton?

The point I am making is that you are merely asking for more of the same, no matter how much more they add, you will never be satisfied.

You must be either confused, purposefully obtuse, or willfully ignorant.

This is an MMO. A subscription game (ESO+ blah, blah) that is designed - in theory - to undergo perpetual and constant updates for its subscribers. To put a finite number on something is frankly ***. It's ZOS' job to come up with the ways and means to perpetuate end game - and they're failing at that job.

If you can't see that, I can't help you.

Here's the thing though man. It can either last forever, or it can be good. Show me a single example in the history of games where it has been both.

I get where you are coming from, I really do- one of the things I'd like to see this game do is introduce many more repeatable group challenges, a "survival arena" mode, stuff like that- but it has to be player driven, you can't just expect more numbers to endlessly keep grinding and call it a day.

The thing that makes a game like EVE so long-term appealing, for example, is that it's world is player driven, it doesn't rely on life support from the devs, and it's not just an endless +1 to this, +3 to that. Players have to build a community that makes a game worth sticking around in.

EVE also has PvP as a central component to its end game. ESO had that opportunity (especially given it's roots - to some degree - in DAoC) and ended up shi**ing the bed.

Corrinos · February 2018

Ley wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

One of the main reasons I like ESO is specifically because of the lack of that end game treadmill. When they add new content it just creates more diversity, rather than a new horizon for you to set out for.

I don't disagree that it's nice not having to chase new gear levels all the time, but the problem is that because the lack of this exact structure, there's very little encouragement to run through content for gear, which is the main drive in other MMOs, even more so since ZOS is inept at making good sets for some reason. Like, look at the sets people run, most of them have been in the game forever, and most of the new sets are just gimmicky ones that have no real application anywhere. They should be working hard to make ESO's endgame have something that would make you interested in running it, since they don't have the same kind of gear progression as many other MMOs do. The fact that they haven't just means they probably don't care that much. Or the more worryingly, they might not know how to do such a thing. If the Asylum and Halls of Fabrication are an indicator they've certainly forgotten how to make fun trials, because they seem to think that, More Health = More Fun.

Also, it's hard to call it gear diversity, when all classes have clear BiS, with everything else being subpar by comparison. Like look at the sets people use, look at what Morrowind caused, that diversity you are talking about is a thing of the past, and even back before the sustain collapse the diversity wasn't that immense.

The main problem with ESO's endgame is the lack of progression. There's no gear progression. There's very little skill progression, at least outside of trying to beat HM trials. There aren't any legendary weapons / sets to work towards. And content is added with vast spaces inbetween either 1 at a time (trials) or 2 at a time (dungeons) every year.

Gear diversity doesn't necessarily have to apply only to BiS equipment. What percentage of the community do you think only consider BiS for their gear? How about their alts?

If every time new content was released the new gear for that content was BiS, it would make all the other gear become obsolete over time.

Also consider when you say BiS, what/who is it BiS for? Trials? PvP? Vet Dungeons? Magica single target? Running scrolls in Cyrodiil? Stamina AoE? Running with pugs? Soloing world bosses? Ganking in PvP? Clearing trash mobs? Resource node farming?

Then you have to consider a person's play style. A player may be willing to sacrifice a BiS set for something that suits their play style better.

BiS gear is a necessary - but insufficient - step in being able to do more than 10k dps by spamming an ability that looks edgy or cool and actually successfully completing content.

disintegr8 · February 2018

Narvuntien wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

22k dps at max cp is a L2P issue and nothing really to do with progression tbh.

But there is no way to learn to play in game that is my point. I crafted and bought a pair of good sets, I use a nice buff drink and I progressed to max cp, at least I was a couple of days ago but the DLC pushed it away again.

If the game had a nice progression curve instead of slamming into a brick wall my dps would increase as I got better instead I am stuck without a way to improve.

There is this gap between the end of the skill you can reach and the skills you need to complete in end game vet content.

I agree with this ^^

The game does not teach you how to get further. The only way to get any further than this is to use the internet, learn rotations, animation cancelling, and farm for trial sets and Maelstrom weapons. If vet trials and vet DLC dungeons require more, there should be a way to figure out how to get more through playing the game instead of via external sources.

This raises the question of how much content actually needs more DPS than this. Can this content be cleared if all DD's were at about 20k DPS? Or is it just that the players who pull these figures want everyone to meet these higher standards?

Maybe it's a matter of "we don't want to take too long, so the more DPS the better' instead of 'we'll clear it with lower damage but take twice as long'.

Anotherone773 · February 2018

zaria wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I like the concept of One tamriel. Its a great starting point, but it also hinders progression severely. Instead of beating the dead horse of One Tamriel further into oblivion, they need to create a hybrid system. Leave One Tamriel for current content, switch CP back to levels, and all new content needs to be level based. When you enter One Tamriel zones you are leveled down to the max level of One Tamriel. Everywhere else, you are whatever level you are at.

Every game has progression, but this one. They tried to reinvent the wheel and made it oval. The wheel doesnt need reinventing, it just needs to be done right. Horizontal progression gets boring after awhile and achieves just dont cut it for most people. An achieve, in my opinion, is just something to stroke you ego with. Its like running on a treadmill and then patting yourself on the back because you didnt fall off. You expended a lot of energy running, but went no where.

ESO is basically farmville with combat. Its a social, RP game that you occasionally whack something to death in because it was standing on the flowers you want to pick for one of your 874 houses. Give it another 5 years and we can change the name to Extreme Housing Online because thats all there will be in the end game. Bosses will drop furniture because everyone stopped caring about another set of gear that isnt really any different than the set they got on. PVP will be known as the Deco Wars. Instead of fighting, it will be a contest to see who decorate a house properly the fastest. Trials will no longer be about killing mobs and raid style bosses. Instead, it will be a fashion show.Who can design the best spring costume with the trendiest color scheme?

WOW is gear level based, you tend to have one or two relevant sets for class at the gear level you are at.
You can grind dungeons to get raid level gear. At least that was how it was back then I played.
Then they added new tires and then an new expansion.

ESO is set based, dungeons tend to have 3 sets one in each weight and an monster set.
Different sets has different benefits, yes some are bad and some are good but its lots of variation.
I don't see how your idea should work at all.
Yes you could go back to how it was during veteran levels, group content is scaled to leader, from time to time you get an new level who you grinded asap then get mostly the same sets of the new level.
Yes that sounds fun

They could not do the WOW system releasing expansions with new series of dungeons and new sets, ESO is to grapical complex and fully voiced making it way to much work to do this.

When i stopped playing WoW, you had dungeon gear, t1 raid, t2 raid and i think t3 raid. I never said go back to vet levels. Again reinventing the wheel. Dungeons dont need to be scaled to anyone. You do dungeons your level and move on. this is progression. You progress through dungeons rather than have everything available all the time.

Sets have different benefits. Its like saying this car comes in 20 colors with 4 trim options. Its STILL this car, its not different than the one sitting next to it, its just a different color with leather seats instead of cloth. That is EXACTLY what you talking about with sets. Im talking about moving on to a different model of car. I started out in a smart for two, lets progress to a ford focus or at least a mini cooper.

Your last statement makes no sense. The leveling system in a game has absolutely zero to do with graphics and being fully voiced. Your comparing apples to cheese. And ive played MMOs that have had beautiful graphics and a far superior character system to ESO or WOW.

Its like ESO did everything right that WoW did wrong. But did everything wrong that WoW did right. WoW had really good BGs. They were well thought out, fun to play and each one felt different. ESO BGs are arenas with a lot of annoy objects everywhere placed for collision. They are all basically the same BG even the types of matches are unimaginative and boring. WoW has awesome dungeons and raids and a good dungeon and raid finder. ESO dungeons are a mess. They just have a really sloppy feel to them. They feel cluttered with trash but you have to sprint 20 seconds between mobs.

WoWs world is pretty close to useless. Its basic and unimaginative. ESO's world is awesome with zones being entertaining to be in. WOW has terrible gear progression. Its very unbalanced progressing to the next level of gear. ESO has no gear progression. Its the same gear with a slightly different benefit. its not any better than the last 30 sets they came out with, just different.

Wow content isnt nearly as buggy and they fix it in a timely manner. It takes forever for anything to get fixed in ESO, if it gets fixed at all and when it does get fixed it will probably break three other things.

Fake progression in ESO may work for some people, but a majority of the gaming community prefers vertical progression. They want to gain levels and they want their level to matter when compared to someone that is only 3/4 of their level. They want their level to matter compared to mobs. If this mob is to hard now, they want to be able to come back in two levels and kick its butt.

There is a reason why all other MMOs have a vertical progression system, because that is what works and what players enjoy. And players are more likely to pay for an xpack if it has vertical progression rather than just different zones, same levels and skills.

Most of the time I spent in wow was spend grinding dungeons for currency to buy gear for, so you will do the same dungeons over an over if you do dungeons, much the same with raids but more progression here as we did not raid so often.
Guild or me never got past the t1 raid level with farming som on t2.
And yes raiding in WOW is on an way higher level than in ESO no discusion about it.
Dungeon finder also worked

Dungeons was good but not more relevant dungeons than eso dungeons as it was limited how many was for end game.
One thing I love with ESO is how dungeons increase in difficulty from CoA1 to the DLC ones who I have not done all in vet.
Difficulty for dungeons in WOW was mostly the same, most was easy like easy vet dungeons in eso, a few was harder and like eso dlc dungeons not very pugable.

Graphic has impact on how much content they can make as it takes far more work to create new content in ESO, WOW also has an far larger budget because of sub and more players. In short WOW can release more dungeons than ESO every year because of this.

I also agree on progression, harder content should overall have better gear, in eso this is very hit an miss, the new dungens has good magic gear, stamina not so much and an very good monster set.

* Blizzard releases new content like what? every two years? ZOS releases every 3 months. So those end game dungeons/raids wont get as boring as they are in WOW. Plus in ESO, you dont share loot which is a big plus. So you dont have 20 plus people fighting over those same few pieces that drop from raid bosses.

*I disagree with your dungeon progression assessment in ESO. There are some that are short and easy, some that are neverending and easy, and some that have a raid mechanic or two thrown in so it can be called " harder". I also found it overwhelming to try to learn over 30 dungeons at the same time and thats just in normal mode. Especially considering that you have to run here do this, run there kill that run way back over here and kill this, find this hidden boss and kill it . It makes learning the dungeons really difficult little lone their mechanics. But the dungeons themselves are not difficult, learning them and being able to remember somewhat what is going on in each one is the hard part.

In WOW, you might do the same 3-4 dungeons for 10-12 levels. That gives you the ability to learn them, the bosses and what that boss does. People solo dungeons in ESO their level, you cant solo dungeons in WOW your level. The trash alone will wtfpwn you. Ive also ran an entire dungeon in ESO, with two DPS and a healer. And none of us were very high level nor that experienced. Died once, and wiped once on last boss(healer got overwhelmed with aggro) but we did the entire dungeon without a tank. You cant do that that in WOW. You can do a dungeon in wow missing a DPS, but if you lose a healer or tank someone needs to switch specs or queue for a replacement. In ESO you just keep rolling.

*The people who work on creating the actual game world and the people who work on character development are not the same, likely not even on the same team. Its like saying this is a really beautiful car, but the engine is crap. They couldnt make the engine better because they spent so much time making the car beautiful. The guys that make the car look pretty and the ones that develop the engine... not the same. Dev teams are like that.

Have you ever used a dev toolkit? Do you know what one is? It basically makes creating a game much faster and easier. Its sort of like eso housing editor but far far more complicated with a lot more options. ID say from experience of creating game content for my own SP games, that landscape design is probably the hardest. Adding objects is not real difficult. Its not like they create every object individually. In the dev tools i used i could even change objects with little effort to have hundreds of different possible appearances for the same object. Even trees and bushes had "random seed" which basically alters the tree appearance slightly randomly so you dont have the same dozen or so trees in the game world. You place the tree type and have enable random seed( or pick your own seed value) and when you bake it will use a randomly generated version of that tree.

I dont think ESO has a character development team though. I dont think they need one since there is no character development. We got 30 more CP this last patch that you can put in the same old things you did the previous 690. Maybe that what you are talking about? Hire more on the graphics end and just delete character development all together.

*On a last note, ZOS parent company is a very rich (by game company standards) privately held company. They have plenty of money, they just arent spending it...at least not on ESO.

Corrinos · February 2018

disintegr8 wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

22k dps at max cp is a L2P issue and nothing really to do with progression tbh.

But there is no way to learn to play in game that is my point. I crafted and bought a pair of good sets, I use a nice buff drink and I progressed to max cp, at least I was a couple of days ago but the DLC pushed it away again.

If the game had a nice progression curve instead of slamming into a brick wall my dps would increase as I got better instead I am stuck without a way to improve.

There is this gap between the end of the skill you can reach and the skills you need to complete in end game vet content.

I agree with this ^^

The game does not teach you how to get further. The only way to get any further than this is to use the internet, learn rotations, animation cancelling, and farm for trial sets and Maelstrom weapons. If vet trials and vet DLC dungeons require more, there should be a way to figure out how to get more through playing the game instead of via external sources.

This raises the question of how much content actually needs more DPS than this. Can this content be cleared if all DD's were at about 20k DPS? Or is it just that the players who pull these figures want everyone to meet these higher standards?

Maybe it's a matter of "we don't want to take too long, so the more DPS the better' instead of 'we'll clear it with lower damage but take twice as long'.

If you can't pull 20k DPS, odds are you're not going to be able to execute mechanics with sufficient skill and accuracy to be able to complete end-game content at a slower pace either.

Navras · February 2018

Eso might now have endgame PVE content as some of you intend, in terms of personal linear progression, but it has a lot of content that can be done.

Picking WoW, like a lot you already have done, in terms of compare: it has a lot of vertical progressions but you feel forced to run all the new content to don't become obsolete in the matter of few days.
WoW push new content, old dungeons become obsolete, your gear becomes old and (almost) useless, you just log into the game to run new stuff, push your gear as you as you can get it just to brag about your top parse on WarcraftLogs.
WoW has a lot of content, 95% of which no one cares because of the reasons I've quickly explained.

ESO to me feels more like: "Well what can I do today to have some fun in-game?". More stuff to do because they don't get obsolete every second patch and lot more feeling to play because of the joy of it, instead of the feeling of being forced to do it.

Both sides have their pros and cons I guess, at the end of the day, it's more on your personal preferences. I guess is a carefully chosen philosophy\concept of endgame, which both of these types of MMOs has so... I don't see possible changes anytime soon.

Palidon · February 2018

You will never have an end game because zos with continue to add new achievements to their game which is rinse and repeat content. This DLC is a mirror of Horns of the Reach DLC. Two new Undaunted Dungeons with new achievements and gear.
Same old story line. Go in kill bosses collect gear and get achievements. Oh and lets not forget you have to put up with all the bugs that come with each new DLC and update until zos finally gets around to fixing them. This new DLC and update being the worst yet.

TheInfernalRage · February 2018

When I started playing this game, I warned myself not to reach endgame that fast. What kind of progression does one really expect when one already reach the end?

I agree 100% with this:

Navras wrote: »

ESO to me feels more like: "Well what can I do today to have some fun in-game?". More stuff to do because they don't get obsolete every second patch and lot more feeling to play because of the joy of it, instead of the feeling of being forced to do it.

Most of the time in many MMOs, endgame progression (in terms of the level of how powerful your character can become) is usually just illusory. I think the endgame paradigm of this game is not to become the most powerful there is, but of simply having fun.

Some people are obsessed with collecting BiS (for whatever that means in this game; because it does not seem to stand on stable ground and the more I think about it, it becomes nonsensical), achieving awesome DPS, etc. But in the end, if you're clearing difficult dungeons in 10-15 minutes with players based on expected setup and configuration (otherwise known as "meta"), you'll be bored eventually.

I understand your position right now. I blazed towards endgame in the previous MMO I played. Reached endgame too fast, got bored too fast because I don't have anything to do anymore and new contents simply mean new stuff to collect to become more awesome and more powerful and then that's just it. Here, it's different. Everyday I create whatever fun I can. And I have not even seriously farmed any gear yet, only casually ventured into dungeons and trials, have not seriously considered vMA, have not seriously went fishing, never had a PvP build, not finished 25% of the quests I think, etc. I am so far away from endgame after more than a year (though only less than 5k hours of gameplay).

Ley · February 2018

Corrinos wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

One of the main reasons I like ESO is specifically because of the lack of that end game treadmill. When they add new content it just creates more diversity, rather than a new horizon for you to set out for.

I don't disagree that it's nice not having to chase new gear levels all the time, but the problem is that because the lack of this exact structure, there's very little encouragement to run through content for gear, which is the main drive in other MMOs, even more so since ZOS is inept at making good sets for some reason. Like, look at the sets people run, most of them have been in the game forever, and most of the new sets are just gimmicky ones that have no real application anywhere. They should be working hard to make ESO's endgame have something that would make you interested in running it, since they don't have the same kind of gear progression as many other MMOs do. The fact that they haven't just means they probably don't care that much. Or the more worryingly, they might not know how to do such a thing. If the Asylum and Halls of Fabrication are an indicator they've certainly forgotten how to make fun trials, because they seem to think that, More Health = More Fun.

Also, it's hard to call it gear diversity, when all classes have clear BiS, with everything else being subpar by comparison. Like look at the sets people use, look at what Morrowind caused, that diversity you are talking about is a thing of the past, and even back before the sustain collapse the diversity wasn't that immense.

The main problem with ESO's endgame is the lack of progression. There's no gear progression. There's very little skill progression, at least outside of trying to beat HM trials. There aren't any legendary weapons / sets to work towards. And content is added with vast spaces inbetween either 1 at a time (trials) or 2 at a time (dungeons) every year.

Gear diversity doesn't necessarily have to apply only to BiS equipment. What percentage of the community do you think only consider BiS for their gear? How about their alts?

If every time new content was released the new gear for that content was BiS, it would make all the other gear become obsolete over time.

Also consider when you say BiS, what/who is it BiS for? Trials? PvP? Vet Dungeons? Magica single target? Running scrolls in Cyrodiil? Stamina AoE? Running with pugs? Soloing world bosses? Ganking in PvP? Clearing trash mobs? Resource node farming?

Then you have to consider a person's play style. A player may be willing to sacrifice a BiS set for something that suits their play style better.

BiS gear is a necessary - but insufficient - step in being able to do more than 10k dps by spamming an ability that looks edgy or cool and actually successfully completing content.

A bit of an exaggeration don't you think? I can comfortably do 15k-20k single target, self buffed DPS without using any BiS gear for my character. I have characters that I run mostly with BiS, then I have characters that I run how I want. BiS compared to the next best option is typically only a few % (2-3) difference in DPS.

That being said, you do realize that there is more to the game than just DPS right?

knaveofengland · February 2018

when all content is done its completed , end game for you is really the new content dlcs houses clothing wads of time to do whatever , myself when i am bored i go play another game , and come back when what i have forgotten about the game , like what i have done now .

you could allways just deleted your toons and start over , i used to do this in guild wars .

there is plenty to do even pvp