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Mundus stone and Divines: The Optimal Choices

AEAltadoonPadhome
AEAltadoonPadhome
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Hey all,
I redid some of the calculations for the "which mundus and armor trait is optimal for DPS" question below here. For players who don't want to see the math, you can skip to the TLDR section at the bottom of this post.

I redid some of the calculations for Mundus stones and Divines vs Infused under Horns of the Reach as the calculations done before do not take infused and warhorn into account for all calculations. @Asayre, I warmly invite you to comment and correct me if I am wrong anywhere, but I got different results than yours and came to different conclusions than you.

First of all, here are the sources I used:
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/ by Asayre
http://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkills.php by UESP

An infused large piece gives 20% of 868 magicka = 173.6 extra.
If you are an altmer/breton magsorc using bound aegis and inner light and have max cp and 5/1/1 gear weight + undaunted passives, you get a 10+8+7+6% magicka bonus. In a raid, warhorn will be giving you another 10% on top most of the time. Let's assume that buff will be up 90% of the time so the increase is 9%. This is a total of 40% from skills and 20% from cp.

This means a large infused piece will net you 173.6 * 1,2 (cp) * 1,4 (skills) = 291.6 magicka.
Without bound aegis this will be 275 magicka.

How much dps increase magicka gives depends on the skill. It scales proportionally to the sum of max magicka and ~10,5 * the spell damage.
Call this the combined damage metric (CDM).
  • at CDM 70k (which is achieved with 3k spell damage and 38.5k max magicka) big infused gives a boost of 0.4166%.
  • at CDM 80k big infused gives a boost of 0.3645%
  • at CDM 60k big infused gives a boost of 0.4860%

For instance, on my Pet Sorc with 5 necropotence + 4 Moondancer + 2 Maw of the Infernal, using bound aegis, inner light and 5/1/1 armor and only Major Sorcery buff , I have 51836 max magicka and 2983 spell damage (CDM 83175,5), and I would change one big divines piece to infused, it would give me a 0,35% damage increase (not regarding the loss of divines).
On my MagDK with 5 juli + 5 bsw + 1 slimecraw, 5/1/1 armor and major sorcery, I have 3152 spell damage (w/o bsw proc) and 41391 magicka (CDR 74487) if I would swap one big piece to infused I would get a 0,37% damage increase.

If you have a lot of max magicka and/or spell damage, infused gives less result than a multiplicative increase such as crit or penetration.

Now the comparison of Infused with Divines under all mundus stones that increase damage.

The Mage:
the Mage gives an increase of 2028 magicka. Every divines piece gives a flat increase of 152,1; this is less than the 173,6 we got with infused. On small pieces we get 351*0.2=70.2 extra, which is less so on small pieces divines is preferred.
TLDR:

The Thief:
Divines gives a 7.5% bonus to 7% crit, which in total is 0,525% crit extra per divines piece.
If we have an average crit modifier of 1,75 (this includes elfborn, and maybe some aggressive horn uptime or other skills) this means we get a dps boost of 0.39%.

The Apprentice:
If you have a sorc with 3 sorc skills slotted, and major sorcery up you get a bonus from divines which is 238*0,075*1,26 = 22,5 spell damage. With minor sorcery from templar that is 23,4 spell damage.
if the rule still applies that spell damage * 10,5 = max magicka, then it would be the equal to 245.5 magicka.
So infused is strictly better than divines on big pieces if you use apprentice (as infused gives 291.6 magicka for aegis users and 275 for non aegis users).
for small pieces this does not count.

The Lover:
Lover gives 2752 penetration. Each divines piece gives 206.4 additional penetration.
Now the formula for mitigation for level 50 mobs from Asayre (see link above) is:
Mitigation = (resistance * (1 - %penetration) - penetration) / 50000.
This means that 206.4 resist gives 0.004128 mitigation (and 206.4 spell pen gives a 0.4128% damage boost).
Of course this assumes full pen is not overcome.
Since most mobs have resist ~18.2k, if alkosh (3k), infused crusher(2108), concentration(4884) and major breach (5280) are up all the time then lover overpenetrates if you use divine small pieces.
Even assuming alkosh is up a reasonable time even on lover infused > divines on large pieces.
if the tank is using torugs + infused crusher (2740) then the resistance left will be larger and more divines become relevant.
Only in pug dungeons were no alkosh or torugs is present lover + 7 divines seems good.
Also some more penetration might be achieved by having CP in spell erosion.


Now as to which mundus to choose from thief, shadow, apprentice and mage. The lover is left out of this as it is clearly the winner if you have not achieved full spell pen and otherwise it is kind of bad.

- Apprentice
with 4 divines on small pieces (we saw that infused was better on big pieces) gives 238*1,3=309,4 spell damage; with major and minor sorcery this becomes 309.4*1,25 = 387. this is equal to 386*10,5=4061 max magicka.
- Mage
with 4 divines gives 2028 * 1,3 (4 divines) * 1,2 (if full CP) = 3163,68; with inner light 7%, racial 10%, undaunted 6% and warhorn 9% it totals to 4176,05 magicka; in this case it is better than apprentice. With warhorn uptime less than 65% it is worse. With bound aegis it is even better and with pets, who scale almost solely off max magicka, it also becomes better.
- Thief
with 4 divines gives 7*1.3=9.1% crit;
with 7 divines gives 10.675%.
with a crit modifier of 75% this gives a 6.8% (4 divines) resp. 8.0% (7 divines) dps increase.

For Mage to beat Thief with 7 divines, the 4176,05 max magicka needs to be 8% or more of your total CDM. Thus, your CDM needs to be 52200 or less. for 4 divines, your CDM needs to be 61413 or more for thief to beat mage.
For shadow to beat thief, your critical damage modifier needs to be lower than your critical strike chance. Stuff like elfborn, major/minor force, and templar/nightblade passives come into play here.


TLDR:
- if you use mage or apprentice, infused is always better on large pieces and divines on small.
- if you use thief or shadow it depends on your stats if infused or divines is better on large pieces.
- if you use lover divines is usually better unless you have achieved full penetration.
- The Mage mundus beats apprentice most of the time; Apprentice is only better with warhorn uptime less than 65%. If you use pets or bound aegis, mage is also better.
- thief beats mage and apprentice if you have lots of spell power and max magicka. If without mundus, your (spell damage * 10,5 + max magicka) > ~60k then you should use thief (or shadow if your crit chance is higher than your crit mod)
- Lover is better in non-raid scenarios iff you can profit from all the penetration it provides (nothing new here). In raids with infused crusher, torug, alkosh, minor + major breach etc. you should put a few points in spell erosion and you're better off with another mundus.
Edited by AEAltadoonPadhome on August 26, 2017 9:40AM
  • AEAltadoonPadhome
    AEAltadoonPadhome
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    Reserved for future use. Perhaps a calculation for Stamina dps would be nice if you are interested.
    Edited by AEAltadoonPadhome on August 26, 2017 9:42AM
  • C4Bliss
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    Hello first I wanna say thx for all this info. I enjoyed reading it. I have some questions though.

    I did some testing on a magblade with 5 juli 4 eather 1 kena 1 shadowrend. I did 5 runs each setup on the 3 mill dummy with 100% warhorn uptime and ele drain uptime.

    I tried lover, mage and apprentice full divines and 3/4 setup. Lover full divines came out on top by a long stretch (is normal cause I am not @ pen cap). Both Mage setups were always the lowest dps. And th apprentice was in between with better results full divines above the 3/4 infused divines setup.

    Can you see anything wrong with my testing because the results from your math and the results from my testing are quite different.
    Thx in advance
  • Lorajet
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    I'm quite surprised that The Lover did so well in the tests. Is it because of any changes in the updates or ? In that case, I'll go back to using that Mundus stone.

    Thanks for the in-depth research.
  • C4Bliss
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    Lorajet wrote: »
    I'm quite surprised that The Lover did so well in the tests. Is it because of any changes in the updates or ? In that case, I'll go back to using that Mundus stone.

    Thanks for the in-depth research.

    Lover has always been bis for solo or 4man content... It is just with all the changes teams notice that it is harder to get @ pen cap and so lover becomes interesting. If you are @ cap apprentice will be bis. Or in pvp I'm pretty sure it will also be the better choice
  • dpencil1
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    @AEAltadoonPadhome
    Nice work. I just have two points I'd like to make.

    First, I think you might be a bit over-generous with some of the buffs you are assuming, such as 90% Warhorn uptime or a pet Sorc using Bound Aegis and Inner Light. Presenting the information as a range from lower buff values to higher ones would probably more representative.

    Second, in discussing the Lover stone, you draw a parallel between mitigation and additional damage done, which is actually incorrect. Check out my thread on the subject: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/368454/spell-penetration-examined-a-pve-dps-perspective#latest
    You would want to look at the value of the Lover stone as a whole, and take into consideration how much penetration is already present as well as how much mitigation will remain to really determine its impact on damage output. In either case, it's potency is greater than you suggest, not less, so nothing about your other comments regarding it is false. It remains the best stone until you reach the pen cap.
  • AEAltadoonPadhome
    AEAltadoonPadhome
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    C4Bliss wrote: »
    Both Mage setups were always the lowest dps. And th apprentice was in between with better results full divines above the 3/4 infused divines setup.

    Besides random parts, there is one thing I did not mention: Light and heavy attacks scale more off spell damage. Perhaps you could post your dps percentage of lights/heavies?

    Lover with 7 divines should always be the best indeed if you dont have full pen. But this thread is more about the other mundus stones.
    Edited by AEAltadoonPadhome on August 27, 2017 8:32PM
  • AEAltadoonPadhome
    AEAltadoonPadhome
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    dpencil1 wrote: »
    First, I think you might be a bit over-generous with some of the buffs you are assuming, such as 90% Warhorn uptime or a pet Sorc using Bound Aegis and Inner Light. Presenting the information as a range from lower buff values to higher ones would probably more representative.

    90% is a bit much, but 70-80% is quite normal in a raid scenario with 2 tanks and 2 healers running warhorn. Note that in this setup you need to be above 65% uptime for infused/the mage to be better. This is realistic imho, and it is without bound aegis. I was just saying that with bound aegis, you would not need any uptime on warhorn for it to be better.
    Edited by AEAltadoonPadhome on August 27, 2017 8:41PM
  • AEAltadoonPadhome
    AEAltadoonPadhome
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    - Apprentice
    with 4 divines on small pieces (we saw that infused was better on big pieces) gives 238*1,3=309,4 spell damage; with major and minor sorcery this becomes 309.4*1,25 = 387. this is equal to 386*10,5=4061 max magicka.
    I forgot to include expert mage for sorcs here. On the front bar you could have like curse, clench, inner, bound, familiar, meteor which is good for 6% spell damage. Execute instead of inner means 8%. On back bar you could have wall, liquid, drain, bound, familiar, rage for 6% as well. Assuming 6%, we get:
    309,4*1.31*10.5=4256 max magicka.
    with 4 divines gives 2028 * 1,3 (4 divines) * 1,2 (if full CP) = 3163,68
    It also looks in other peoples formulas that the mage stone does not benefit from CP. In that case, mage is 2028 * 1,3 (4 divines), with inner light 7%, racial 10%, undaunted 6%, aegis 8% and meteor 2% it totals to 3506 magicka.

    This is a little bit more, favouring apprentice over mage.
    Also, the 10.5 factor is for most skills, except pets and weaves. pets do not get buffed by spell damage (factor 0) while weaves have factor 40. For me, more dps is coming from weaves than from pets usually so I'm going to stick to apprentice for now.
    Edited by AEAltadoonPadhome on November 18, 2017 5:34PM
  • pteam
    pteam
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    Does most of this tldr summary still hold true today or has there been changes since?
    The Flawless Conqueror
    Xbox NA - its pteam

    Completed vDSA - vHRC HM - vAA HM - vSO HM - vMoL - vHoF HM - vCR +1 - vMA Flawless 585k - vAS +2 HM
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    Not sure but the sorc passive that he is talking about, the one that gives 2% spell and weapon Damage, only gives the 2% on the base 1335 or 1535 spell damage of the staff. This has been like this for a long time, so his calculations are a little off. see here, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4662211

    Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on February 2, 2018 4:07AM
  • pteam
    pteam
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    It’s interesting that he says infused is better on large pieces if you use apprentice
    The Flawless Conqueror
    Xbox NA - its pteam

    Completed vDSA - vHRC HM - vAA HM - vSO HM - vMoL - vHoF HM - vCR +1 - vMA Flawless 585k - vAS +2 HM
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    pteam wrote: »
    It’s interesting that he says infused is better on large pieces if you use apprentice

    his calculation have a few flaws, the biggest being that the mag mundas is buffed by cp, the mage mundus, the tower and the lord are not buffed by cp, havent been since the game added cp. same with five piece sets, like necro, hulking and plague doctor, they do not get the 20% from cp.
    Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on February 3, 2018 3:20AM
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    Where that guy oh explained about infused. But injectioning a bit. You will get higher benift from divines then infused if you didn't pick optimal race.
  • code65536
    code65536
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    The biggest problem here is the 10.5-to-1 ratio of magicka to spell power.

    While this ratio holds true for abilities, it does not work for pets and for staff attacks.

    Pets scale off of max magicka only and not spell power.

    In contrast, staff light/heavy attacks benefit from spell power much more than max magicka.

    Look at the combat metrics parses for magblades and Asylum staff sorcs--the biggest damage source that you'll see in combat metrics is often light attacks. With staff attacks contributing such a large share of damage, it shifts things towards divines when using Apprentice.

    On the other hand, a petsorc would probably want infused instead.
    Edited by code65536 on February 3, 2018 12:41PM
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  • AEAltadoonPadhome
    AEAltadoonPadhome
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    code65536 wrote: »
    The biggest problem here is the 10.5-to-1 ratio of magicka to spell power.
    I agree, and since I made this post I did much more calculations. Even on petsorc HA/LAs should be a big factor on dps parses. I found that unless you have a build with all 2/3 sorc pets (atro might have become viable again this patch) magicka is preferred, but in most other situations spell damage is.
    Actually kind of pityful that there is no way of buffing both pet and LA/HA damage. slotting a lot of pets means having less space for abilities, so automatically going into a HA build.

  • LiquidPony
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    code65536 wrote: »
    The biggest problem here is the 10.5-to-1 ratio of magicka to spell power.
    I agree, and since I made this post I did much more calculations. Even on petsorc HA/LAs should be a big factor on dps parses. I found that unless you have a build with all 2/3 sorc pets (atro might have become viable again this patch) magicka is preferred, but in most other situations spell damage is.
    Actually kind of pityful that there is no way of buffing both pet and LA/HA damage. slotting a lot of pets means having less space for abilities, so automatically going into a HA build.

    The way to buff both pet damage and LA/HA damage is by increasing Spell Critical. Mechanical Acuity FTW.
  • AEAltadoonPadhome
    AEAltadoonPadhome
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    True. What is the average uptime on it? So far Mother's sorrow seems to be suboptimal according to my tests.
    And perhaps its better on NBs and templars.
  • LiquidPony
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    True. What is the average uptime on it? So far Mother's sorrow seems to be suboptimal according to my tests.
    And perhaps its better on NBs and templars.

    Uptime is usually 25-28%, even if you're just running it on the front bar. If it's on both bars it's always 28% (technically probably 27.777%, but CMX reports 28%).

    Pretty much every magsorc and magblade I know is running Mechanical Acuity now (along with some stamplars and stamsorcs and even stamblades).

    I know LZH has been using it in Mechanically Challenged.

    VS (top raid guild on XB/NA) is using it heavily ... I'm pretty sure there are 5 people using it in this video of the top vMoL HM score on the server: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1NqhUMs3bU&t=115s
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