ZoS needs to be clear with Ice Staves. Tank or Damage?

Sinolai · February 2018

The ice staves were turned into tank weapons but ZoS is still creating them as if they were planning to use them on DDs.
Asylum, Maelstorm and Master's Ice staves have exactly same set effect as lightning and fire staves, which aim to boost damage. That is like creating a sword and shield 2 piece set that increases the damage of your Damage over time abilities and auto-slots Pierce Armour into your skill bar. You can use it but it still deals less damage than random mismatch pair of dual wield, gives less survivality than any other 2 piece sword & shield and puts a taunt that prevents you using 1 ability in most content. There is no point of having a taunt on DD or boosting damage on tank.
What I ask of is:
1.Either return Ice staves to DPS weapons By removing taunt and adding new effect that boosts damage
or
2. make them tank weapons by giving them unique set effects that increase survival and resource management instead of DPS.

KanedaSyndrome · February 2018

Currently using mine as a dps/tank hybrid on my warden. Would prefer to see it made to a dps role. Make morphs for tanking, such that the player decides whether it's a tank or dps weapon.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

They are tank weapons, the passives are all tank. The chilled status seffect is a tank debuff. You block with magic. Not sure how much more clear they need to be.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

I think it's pretty clear already: They're an offensive weapon with defensive applications that is not intended to compete with lightning or fire staves for raw damage.

They can be used by tanks for the defensive aspects. They're also an extremely good weapon choice in pvp for both tank and damage builds seeking greater survivability and control debuffs.

The only ice staves that give specifically damage-oriented buffs are the 1 piece sets (maelstrom and the like) - and those benefits still arent half bad for pvp or even for tanking.

The fact is that nobody used ice staves for dps prior to them being changed. Fire gave far better single target damage, lightning gave far better area damage. At the same time, tanks were begging ZOS for a way to use magicka as a primary tanking resource instead of stamina to facilitate magicka tanking builds. ZOS said "hey look, we've got a whole weapon type nobody is using because it's crap, why dont we give that to the tanks?". It wasnt until after the change that all of you whiners crawled out of the woodwork complaining that your ice mage dps builds (which were ENTIRELY nonexistent before) were being ruined by heavy attack taunting.

Here's the bottom line: if you want to play an ice dps, play an ice dps, just dont put points into the tri-focus passive. Expect everyone to yell at you for using a weapon you shouldnt be, and expect to be entirely less effective than you would if you used a fire or lightning stave. That's a lot to sacrafice just so you can have pretty blue bolts instead of orange bolts.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I think it's pretty clear already: They're an offensive weapon with defensive applications that is not intended to compete with lightning or fire staves for raw damage.

They can be used by tanks for the defensive aspects. They're also an extremely good weapon choice in pvp for both tank and damage builds seeking greater survivability and control debuffs.

The only ice staves that give specifically damage-oriented buffs are the 1 piece sets (maelstrom and the like) - and those benefits still arent half bad for pvp or even for tanking.

The fact is that nobody used ice staves for dps prior to them being changed. Fire gave far better single target damage, lightning gave far better area damage. At the same time, tanks were begging ZOS for a way to use magicka as a primary tanking resource instead of stamina to facilitate magicka tanking builds. ZOS said "hey look, we've got a whole weapon type nobody is using because it's crap, why dont we give that to the tanks?". It wasnt until after the change that all of you whiners crawled out of the woodwork complaining that your ice mage dps builds (which were ENTIRELY nonexistent before) were being ruined by heavy attack taunting.

Here's the bottom line: if you want to play an ice dps, play an ice dps, just dont put points into the tri-focus passive. Expect everyone to yell at you for using a weapon you shouldnt be, and expect to be entirely less effective than you would if you used a fire or lightning stave. That's a lot to sacrafice just so you can have pretty blue bolts instead of orange bolts.

You are right. I personally think Ice Staff should be its own weapon though at this point. If they did this they could make one of the skills a taunt and generally keep overall appearances of the weapon while also making it better and more interesting.

Sinolai · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

They are tank weapons, the passives are all tank. The chilled status seffect is a tank debuff. You block with magic. Not sure how much more clear they need to be.

Master's Ice staff: (1 item) Reduces the cost of Destructive Touch by 30% and increases the direct damage it deals by 2000.

Maelstorm Ice staff: (1 Item) Your light and heavy attacks deal an additional 1341 to enemies in your Wall of Elements

Asylum perfect Ice staff: (1 Item) Every second cast of Force Shock will always apply the Burning, Concussion, and Chilled status effects. The Force Shock casts must be made within 10 seconds of each other for this effect to occur.

Does these sound like all tank passives? How many tanks are going to spam force pulses or Destructive touches? Most end game tanks prefer lightning staff becouse of off-blanace and they already give maims with low slash. Magicka is also better spent buffing than blocking.

I can see some value to these in PvP but they are still in a very odd place. I tried to use my perfect AS Ice staff in PvP but atleast I found undodgeable lightning staff and fire staff with more damage (especially on those vamps that run everywhere) to be more effective.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I think it's pretty clear already: They're an offensive weapon with defensive applications that is not intended to compete with lightning or fire staves for raw damage.

The fact is that nobody used ice staves for dps prior to them being changed. Fire gave far better single target damage, lightning gave far better area damage. At the same time, tanks were begging ZOS for a way to use magicka as a primary tanking resource instead of stamina to facilitate magicka tanking builds. ZOS said "hey look, we've got a whole weapon type nobody is using because it's crap, why dont we give that to the tanks?". It wasnt until after the change that all of you whiners crawled out of the woodwork complaining that your ice mage dps builds (which were ENTIRELY nonexistent before) were being ruined by heavy attack taunting.

I am not whining. I am trying to be consturctive. I was one of the players excited to test magicka tanks but the implementation is poor. My MagSorc tanks much better with 1h+shield. I know ice staves were used only by roleplayers and "control builds" that always lost to pure dps. But atleast it didnt do any harm. Now roleplayers are still using it without knowing their heavy attack will cause every boss in dungeon to target them, resulting them kiting the boss around the room or an unnecessary death due to boss turning around and doing a sweep.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Here's the bottom line: if you want to play an ice dps, play an ice dps, just dont put points into the tri-focus passive. Expect everyone to yell at you for using a weapon you shouldnt be, and expect to be entirely less effective than you would if you used a fire or lightning stave. That's a lot to sacrafice just so you can have pretty blue bolts instead of orange bolts.

I dont want to play DPS with ice staff. I want to be able to tank with it properly (well actually I could use it on my warden if it had an useful damage boosting effect. 8% increase to DoT damage?).

Edit: removed the damage bonus range on Staves. Nobody is interested what is the minium damage boost it gives at lvl 1.
Edit2: grammar and a couple of arguments

KanedaSyndrome · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The fact is that nobody used ice staves for dps prior to them being changed. Fire gave far better single target damage, lightning gave far better area damage. At the same time, tanks were begging ZOS for a way to use magicka as a primary tanking resource instead of stamina to facilitate magicka tanking builds. ZOS said "hey look, we've got a whole weapon type nobody is using because it's crap, why dont we give that to the tanks?". It wasnt until after the change that all of you whiners crawled out of the woodwork complaining that your ice mage dps builds (which were ENTIRELY nonexistent before) were being ruined by heavy attack taunting.

Reason noone used ice staves was because there was nothing to use them with. Ice warden didn't exist, so there were basically not enough ice skills to supplement with.

Sinolai · February 2018

There are also several sets that are based on dealing ice damage, all of which boost your damage and none that fits for tank (apart from Ice Furnace, that actually is heavy armor and gives eh... weapon damage... for stamina builds?)
Ice Furnace
Winterborn
Ysgramor's Brithright
Elemental Succession

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Like I said, if the "roleplayers" still want to use it, they just need to avoid putting points into one passive. Not that difficult.

The sets that boost damage with ice magic, and the 1 piece ice staff sets, are still there for pvp.

Also, I've posted the combo in several other threads disregarding ice staves: the taunt is actually worthwhile in a pvp environment. Combine the tremorscale, knight slayer, and vanguard's challenge sets with an ice staff and in one heavy attack you do all the following:
-Deal 10% of the target's max health as oblivion damage
-Have a 50% chance to proc tremorscale, causing a hefty amount of burst damage and snaring by 70%
-Reduce the target's damage to everyone except yourself by 50%
-Restore a chunk of magicka (just like all heavy attacks)
-Deal a chunk of damage (just like all heavy attacks)
-Give yourself a damage shield from frost staff passives

And you can boost that damage dealt by 40% as a dragonknight, or 6% passively as a warden. As a sorceror you can get a fair heal back if the attack crits. You can also time that heavy attack with just about any ranged burst damage skill to double up further on the instant damage hit.

All of that from a free, long range attack. It's an amazing tool in pvp, especially organized battlegrounds groups when using vanguard's challenge as a player taunt, and allows even a tank-focused character with low or average damage output to deal a heavy amount of burst.

Arobain · February 2018

both

ccfeeling · February 2018

Ice staff is already tank weapon because of the passives .
Well , they are almost same , but the critical difference is staff is 1pc item , it affects 3 set combinations .

Zos never gives what you want

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

@Sinolai Does these sound like all tank passives?

those are active skills and set bonus. you would to link an ice staff of Strength of the Automaton and it would be the same thing.

these are passives

tri focus Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1599 damage. While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.

pretty tank oriented

Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 30% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%.

100% tank oriented

thedude33 · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Like I said, if the "roleplayers" still want to use it, they just need to avoid putting points into one passive. Not that difficult.

The sets that boost damage with ice magic, and the 1 piece ice staff sets, are still there for pvp.

Also, I've posted the combo in several other threads disregarding ice staves: the taunt is actually worthwhile in a pvp environment. Combine the tremorscale, knight slayer, and vanguard's challenge sets with an ice staff and in one heavy attack you do all the following:
-Deal 10% of the target's max health as oblivion damage
-Have a 50% chance to proc tremorscale, causing a hefty amount of burst damage and snaring by 70%
-Reduce the target's damage to everyone except yourself by 50%
-Restore a chunk of magicka (just like all heavy attacks)
-Deal a chunk of damage (just like all heavy attacks)
-Give yourself a damage shield from frost staff passives

And you can boost that damage dealt by 40% as a dragonknight, or 6% passively as a warden. As a sorceror you can get a fair heal back if the attack crits. You can also time that heavy attack with just about any ranged burst damage skill to double up further on the instant damage hit.

All of that from a free, long range attack. It's an amazing tool in pvp, especially organized battlegrounds groups when using vanguard's challenge as a player taunt, and allows even a tank-focused character with low or average damage output to deal a heavy amount of burst.

Some interesting points.

You left out an important piece of information regarding the Vanguard set though.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

thedude33 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Like I said, if the "roleplayers" still want to use it, they just need to avoid putting points into one passive. Not that difficult.

The sets that boost damage with ice magic, and the 1 piece ice staff sets, are still there for pvp.

Also, I've posted the combo in several other threads disregarding ice staves: the taunt is actually worthwhile in a pvp environment. Combine the tremorscale, knight slayer, and vanguard's challenge sets with an ice staff and in one heavy attack you do all the following:
-Deal 10% of the target's max health as oblivion damage
-Have a 50% chance to proc tremorscale, causing a hefty amount of burst damage and snaring by 70%
-Reduce the target's damage to everyone except yourself by 50%
-Restore a chunk of magicka (just like all heavy attacks)
-Deal a chunk of damage (just like all heavy attacks)
-Give yourself a damage shield from frost staff passives

And you can boost that damage dealt by 40% as a dragonknight, or 6% passively as a warden. As a sorceror you can get a fair heal back if the attack crits. You can also time that heavy attack with just about any ranged burst damage skill to double up further on the instant damage hit.

All of that from a free, long range attack. It's an amazing tool in pvp, especially organized battlegrounds groups when using vanguard's challenge as a player taunt, and allows even a tank-focused character with low or average damage output to deal a heavy amount of burst.

Some interesting points.

You left out an important piece of information regarding the Vanguard set though.

True, you take more damage from the target, but in an organized battlegrounds group I find you can often plant the debuff on enemies that your team is fighting without being targeted yourself much of the time. You just have to play smart. Most enemy players dont recognize that heavy attack as a taunt in pvp (most people arent even used to vanguard challenge being used at all), and it'll take them long enough to notice the source that your group can usually burn them. Halving enemy damage is way too useful to pass up outside of 1v1 or zerging.

SydneyGrey · February 2018

They don't give two flying farts about people being able to use ice staves for DPS.

Sinolai · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Sinolai Does these sound like all tank passives?

those are active skills and set bonus. you would to link an ice staff of Strength of the Automaton and it would be the same thing.

these are passives

tri focus Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1599 damage. While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.

pretty tank oriented

Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 30% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%.

100% tank oriented

you dont see anything wrong with the design? Tank doesnt need damage so why every ice set and staff is made to boost damage? you dont run dual wield build with 2 perfect asylum swords that return magicka when you use defensive posture. Why should ice tank run with a staff that boost light attack damage?

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Sinolai wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Sinolai Does these sound like all tank passives?

those are active skills and set bonus. you would to link an ice staff of Strength of the Automaton and it would be the same thing.

these are passives

tri focus Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1599 damage. While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.

pretty tank oriented

Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 30% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%.

100% tank oriented

you dont see anything wrong with the design? Tank doesnt need damage so why every ice set and staff is made to boost damage? you dont run dual wield build with 2 perfect asylum swords that return magicka when you use defensive posture. Why should ice tank run with a staff that boost light attack damage?

Soloing? PvP? The extra damage on those occasions where you heavy attack to taunt?

Sinolai · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Sinolai Does these sound like all tank passives?

those are active skills and set bonus. you would to link an ice staff of Strength of the Automaton and it would be the same thing.

these are passives

tri focus Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1599 damage. While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.

pretty tank oriented

Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 30% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%.

100% tank oriented

you dont see anything wrong with the design? Tank doesnt need damage so why every ice set and staff is made to boost damage? you dont run dual wield build with 2 perfect asylum swords that return magicka when you use defensive posture. Why should ice tank run with a staff that boost light attack damage?

Soloing? PvP? The extra damage on those occasions where you heavy attack to taunt?

I tried it with kinghtslayer, althiugh not with the full set you mentioned. I didnt find the extra damage worth it. If I was the one to be overwhelmed I used magicka to block and after it runs out shielding or casting was also impossible. All I could do was heavy attack and pray for crits to get some heal. The heavy attack is easy to see coming, missed most of the time due to roll, suffle or line of sight and more than once I ended getting a dizzy swing on my face while charging it. I admit I am not very good pvp player but atleast torug shock gives me endless battles and sometimes even kills. It's your opinion of a very limited play style damage weapon vs mine for a badly designed tank weapon, which I'd hope to have more uses. Even if it gave you mag regen or less damage taken I am sure you could find new use for it in pvp (I doubt it even affects the builds you have and I really dont believe you use wall of elements in pvp. ). on the other hand, i see no point of doing more damage with light attacks with my tank. By the way, you cant fit all those sets at once with a special staff.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

Sinolai wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Sinolai Does these sound like all tank passives?

those are active skills and set bonus. you would to link an ice staff of Strength of the Automaton and it would be the same thing.

these are passives

tri focus Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1599 damage. While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.

pretty tank oriented

Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 30% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%.

100% tank oriented

you dont see anything wrong with the design? Tank doesnt need damage so why every ice set and staff is made to boost damage? you dont run dual wield build with 2 perfect asylum swords that return magicka when you use defensive posture. Why should ice tank run with a staff that boost light attack damage?

You don't see why set bonus don't matter to whether or not zos intented something to be used as a tank item or not? Only the passives matter. Otherwise do you think heavy armor was meant for damage? See fury or 7th Legion or Medusa. or light armor was for tanking, see desert rose or Magicka furnace. I say again, set bonus do not make items for a certain role. The passives do. You also keep bringing up the single set item bonuses. They are not for tanking. That is like saying why is my sword and board of vicious ophidian is not as good as deul wield. The passives make them better. Pretty clear.

Sinolai · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Sinolai Does these sound like all tank passives?

those are active skills and set bonus. you would to link an ice staff of Strength of the Automaton and it would be the same thing.

these are passives

tri focus Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1599 damage. While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.

pretty tank oriented

Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 30% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%.

100% tank oriented

you dont see anything wrong with the design? Tank doesnt need damage so why every ice set and staff is made to boost damage? you dont run dual wield build with 2 perfect asylum swords that return magicka when you use defensive posture. Why should ice tank run with a staff that boost light attack damage?

You don't see why set bonus don't matter to whether or not zos intented something to be used as a tank item or not? Only the passives matter. Otherwise do you think heavy armor was meant for damage? See fury or 7th Legion or Medusa. or light armor was for tanking, see desert rose or Magicka furnace. I say again, set bonus do not make items for a certain role. The passives do. You also keep bringing up the single set item bonuses. They are not for tanking. That is like saying why is my sword and board of vicious ophidian is not as good as deul wield. The passives make them better. Pretty clear.

Actually, I do think sets like Medusa, Rattlecage and Soul Sihne are supposed to be used as dd, although they are not optimal for end game pve. Low lvl solo play and some pvp builds however can utilize them effectively. These sets trade some damage for increased survavility, although the recent change on warth passive has made heavy armor dds more ineffective. Using these on tank again is completely pointless as tank doesnt benefit from spell damage on channel abilities or spell crit.

You are getting hang of it! Vicious Ophidian set is designed for damage (although some tank might use it for cost reduction. still not optimal.). If ice staves are designed for tanking then why are their unique set bonuses designed for damage?

If maelstorm ice staff is not for tanking, in what kind of build you would utilize it? To me, even 1 piece julianos ice staff will do everything I can do with MA Ice staff.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Sinolai Does these sound like all tank passives?

those are active skills and set bonus. you would to link an ice staff of Strength of the Automaton and it would be the same thing.

these are passives

tri focus Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1599 damage. While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.

pretty tank oriented

Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 30% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%.

100% tank oriented

and yet not for tanking?
ps. rng generated automaton satff is bad comparision to a final reward that was designed.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

@Sinolai your first paragraph is exactly what I mean. The sets I listed make you a dps, not a tank, it is the passives that make you a tank. Do you see. In this game it is the passives. Heavy armor is for tanks. Those sets are not for tanks. Like crushing wall is not for tanks.

You seem to be have two different complaints, one that the vMA staff is not for tanking and then that zos is not clear what an ice staff is for. To the first statement, of course a crushing wall set is not for tanks. Just like the sets that you say are for "completely pointless as tank". They are the same. If you want them to change the set bonus for the crushing wall set when an ice staff is equipped, then I would be okay with another set that does that that drops in vMA but there are those in this game that run the crushing wall ice staff as a dps.

The second statement, that zos is unclear the ice staffs are for tanking, I believe they are quite clear by the passives for ice staffs they want them to be for tanks. Just like they designed heavy armor for tanks but they still have dps oriented heavy five piece sets in the game.

To me, even 1 piece julianos ice staff will do everything I can do with MA Ice staff.

If it is your opinion that a non set piece can the the same as a crushing wall ice staff. That is clearly false. You get more light and heavy damage. If you don't find this useful, that does not mean it is not there.

And rattlecage is junk.

ps. rng generated automaton satff is bad comparision to designed reward.

They are both "designed rewards". They are both "RNG generated". They are the same.

Sinolai · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Sinolai your first paragraph is exactly what I mean. The sets I listed make you a dps, not a tank, it is the passives that make you a tank. Do you see. In this game it is the passives. Heavy armor is for tanks. Those sets are not for tanks. Like crushing wall is not for tanks.

You seem to be have two different complaints, one that the vMA staff is not for tanking and then that zos is not clear what an ice staff is for. To the first statement, of course a crushing wall set is not for tanks. Just like the sets that you say are for "completely pointless as tank". They are the same. If you want them to change the set bonus for the crushing wall set when an ice staff is equipped, then I would be okay with another set that does that that drops in vMA but there are those in this game that run the crushing wall ice staff as a dps.

The second statement, that zos is unclear the ice staffs are for tanking, I believe they are quite clear by the passives for ice staffs they want them to be for tanks. Just like they designed heavy armor for tanks but they still have dps oriented heavy five piece sets in the game.

To me, even 1 piece julianos ice staff will do everything I can do with MA Ice staff.

If it is your opinion that a non set piece can the the same as a crushing wall ice staff. That is clearly false. You get more light and heavy damage. If you don't find this useful, that does not mean it is not there.

And rattlecage is junk.

ps. rng generated automaton satff is bad comparision to designed reward.

They are both "designed rewards". They are both "RNG generated". They are the same.

The title is ment to be taken figuratively and not literally. I know ZoS ment ice staves for tank but no ice staff has tank oriented bonus.
You cant compare automaton, that is designed set for stam dd and random number generator drops you a ligtning staff. vMA/Master/AS staff is a set that was designed to be an ice staff, work like an ice staff (=for tanking) and still has same bonus as lightning staff (for damage). This is just bad design, not bad rng. you can never get an ice staff more fitting to your tank no mattet how many times you do vMA. But you can get 1h weapon that doesnt return magicka when using defencive posture from asylum. ZoS created malestorm weapons when ice staff was still for damage and they have kept the design even after it was turned to tank weapon and are still introducing more ice staves with damage oriented set effects.

MehrunesFlagon · February 2018

they should switch it to back dps, and have the effect be something along the lines of minor force.Something that is missing form the magicka toolkit anyway.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

The title is ment to be taken figuratively and not literally.

Not my fault you were being unclear.

I know ZoS ment ice staves for tank

/Thread

but no ixe staff has tank oriented bonus

This is patently false, I have a dragonguard defending ice staff. Works just fine. Unless you mean they don't have an ice staff that drops from vMA that is meant for tanks, then you are right but why do you think it needs to? Maybe it is part of the plan, like " sets like Medusa, Rattlecage and Soul Sihne are supposed to be used as dd".

You cant compare automaton,

I can.

that is designed set for stam dd

It not the set bonuses that make for a stam dps, it is a medium armor set, medium armor is for Stam dps. The point I was making is that there are sets that buff skills that a tank doesn't need but ice staffs still exists. It has become clear to me that you don't care about this, you want these particular sets to get ice tank versions. To be clear, I would be okay with this as well.

and random numver generator drops you a ligtning staff, to a set that was designed to be an ice staff, work like an ice staff (=for tanking) and still has same bonus as lightning staff (for damage).

If you don't think that RNG is not involved in you getting a crushing wall staff, you are again miss guided.

Sinolai · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

The title is ment to be taken figuratively and not literally.

/Thread

This is not end of the Thread. Like I said, the title is not meant to be taken literally but to initiate discussion, which it did but with wrong person. The message is that ZoS is still after turning ice staff into tank weapon, creating 1 piece special ice staves as if they were supposed to be used on a dd, with exactly the same bonuses as the 2 other destro staves.

Allow me to correct this for you, although I am sure you have finally gotten my point and are here just becouse you want to have the last word: Yes, sets that were designed as tank sets have ice staves, which is good. But none of the unique 1 piece set ice staves are designed for tank. Why does vMA satff needs to have tank bonus? Becouse it is useless and yet it is supposed to be a reward. No dd is going to use it becouse they dont want to taunt. No Ice Tank is going to use it becouse they dont need extra damage and no PvP player is going to use it becouse nobody is going to just stand in your wall of elements while you charge your heavy attacks that hit like wet noodles. Medusa and Rattlecage atleast have clear design!

.

You cant compare automaton,

I can.

Yes, You can compare cars to apples, both are red, cars has wheels and apples dont but that comparison is stupid. Nice way to cut my argument from the middle By the way.

that is designed set for stam dd

It not the set bonuses that make for a stam dps, it is a medium armor set, medium armor is for Stam dps. The point I was making is that there are sets that buff skills that a tank doesn't need but ice staffs still exists. It has become clear to me that you don't care about this, you want these particular sets to get ice tank versions. To be clear, I would be okay with this as well.

Yes! I want these ice staves to be designed for tank! Why? Becouse their set effect is nearly useless. It desnt help tank and Ice staff is sub-optimal for dd (apart from vAS and really specific pvp build).

When you say armor weight matters more than bonuses, that's like saying Soul Shine is tank armor becouse it is heavy. You just said yourself it doesnt work like that. Some undauted sets also were created so that MagDD has medium and StamDD has light. Setbonus matters more than armor weight type (thogh most of them are sub-optimal due to losing key passives). That's why tank's run Powerful Assault and Alkosh.

and random numver generator drops you a ligtning staff, to a set that was designed to be an ice staff, work like an ice staff (=for tanking) and still has same bonus as lightning staff (for damage).

If you don't think that RNG is not involved in you getting a crushing wall staff, you are again miss guided.

I find it hard to believe you missed my point so far again. Just in case you really did: I am not saying RNG is not involved what kind of drop you get from vMA. I am saying that ZoS has designed all overland sets and given them set bonuses that boost usually staminaDD, MagDD or Tank efficiency. That is Design. RNG is what drops you a Maul of Necropotence. Necropotence is great set but you cant run it properly with maul. This maul is crap. But if you get a lightning staff instead you can probably use the set and it is really effective.

Design is when ZoS Created Master's Ice staff that increases damage of Destructive Touch. No tank uses this and no matter how many times you run DSA you will never get other type of Ice staff. This design is Crap and the staff is always "useless".

Maelstorm, DSA and vAS drops you 2 kind of 1-handed weapons, depending wether they drop in pairs or with shield. You can dual wield the swords that dropped with shield or use the sword that came in pairs with a shield but you cant use the set effect then. That is not bad design. You are just using them wrong and had bad RNG. If you get the correct weapons the set effect will become quite benefical.

Minno · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@Sinolai Does these sound like all tank passives?

those are active skills and set bonus. you would to link an ice staff of Strength of the Automaton and it would be the same thing.

these are passives

tri focus Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attacks taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 1599 damage. While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina.

pretty tank oriented

Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 30% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%.

100% tank oriented

Backbar support/battlefield control more than brute SNB taunt tanking:
- 10% penetration on all destro DMG
- frost DMG procs chilled for 15% minor maim. Highest chance to proc outside of enchants is direct DMG at 10%.
- destro passive also increases the proc chance.
- destructive reach with ice is a ranged immobilze. Only universal ranged spamable that ignores cc immunity. Why taunt, if you can stop an enemy from reaching the healer entirely, on cooldown.
- wall of elements. Then force pulse/destro reach, with either a frost enchant, helps cause chilled and then those targets are immobilzed. Could be more reliable but nice to let it hang in the background.
- armor boost/block passive is just icing on the cake.
- elemental drain gives group support with global penetration and giving everyone minor mag steal (which ignores block shutting down regen for you)

It's just a different way to setup control. In pvp, it replaces SNB for classes already using DW on the their front bar and want more mag sustain/access to roots (aka us pvp magplars).

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2018

@Sinolai , this is why I've been suggesting they should just separate the Destruction staves into two varieties. In fact they could even have two varieties of Ice staff if they wanted to which could add some much needed fun and variety. The first could be a DPS ice staff and the second could be a Tanking Staff completely segregrated from the other staves. This of course would drive all of us nuts as we would invariably need to learn a new skill line potentially.

Marginis · February 2018

The only issue I'd run into personally (and I do run as a frost staff tank on my main) is that the destruction staff abilities tend toward the offensive, so I end up not having the full "tankiness" that a one-handed weapon and shield would give on my front bar. However, a frost staff is great to use secondarily for procs and debuffs, moreso than straight up general tank abilities. So it's probably more useful to think of it as a tank weapon - just one with a different flavor to sword and board.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Right, imo ice staff is the prime weapon to back bar as a tank, particularly a Warden tank. With the off balance changes, there's little reason for tanks to run lightning staff back bar anymore. Blockade of frost will give you the same uptime on crusher, allow you to aoe snare/immobilizer/maim, gives you a free ranged taunt that doesn't require a slot on your bar (as opposed to the overly expensive inner fire), and gives you a whole extra resource pool to block with if something should happen to your stamina. Frost staves also have an innate armor bonus now so you don't lose as much resistance when on the back bar.

Far more utility than a lightning staff gives.

f047ys3v3n · February 2018

They are clear as mud in your eye:
1) Abilities all damage
2) Passives all tank
3) A taunt on full heavy which is now required in combat all the time makes in impossible to use for damage in raid.
4) All 1 pc ice weapon ability enhancements are damage
5) Warden passive of + ice damage seems to play to ice mage and Altmer and Dunmer both have + ice damage passive.

See, evenly split. Clear as mud in your eye. Clear that Wrobel should be fired or reassigned at least.

Imryll · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

It wasnt until after the change that all of you whiners crawled out of the woodwork complaining that your ice mage dps builds (which were ENTIRELY nonexistent before) were being ruined by heavy attack taunting.

Here's the bottom line: if you want to play an ice dps, play an ice dps, just dont put points into the tri-focus passive. Expect everyone to yell at you for using a weapon you shouldnt be, and expect to be entirely less effective than you would if you used a fire or lightning stave. That's a lot to sacrafice just so you can have pretty blue bolts instead of orange bolts.

You don't think that introducing a new class with passives that increase frost damage had something to do with the increased interest in using ice staves for DPS? I don't think it's "whiners" crawling out of the woodwork so much as mag Wardens--which didn't exist prior to the change--and for whom it isn't just a question of pretty blue bolts.