It's time to unlink max attribute from damage

code65536 · February 2018

No.

This is what it used to be, and people just stacked health, and good riddance that's gone. It's ridiculous that people yearn for a return to those dark ages.

Joy_Division · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

This needs to be done. Dumping your points into magicka or stamina should not result in a direct increase to your weapon and spell damage. This system is the bane of hybrid builds, it's the bane of tanks for overland content, and it's an archaic system that makes absolutely no sense with the modern state of the game.

Fix it via the following:

-Attributes no longer effect actual damage.
-Increase the resource pool gain of attributes, enchants, gear, and sets that increase magicka or stamina.
-Work the lost damage from the above changes into base weapon and spell damage, and into set bonuses.

A player can now put points into attributes, or use attribute focused sets, for the sole purpose of having a larger resource pool to utilize for damage, healing, or utility. Tanks will have slightly more resources and slightly better damage potential when soloing, hybrids will no longer suffer from splitting their attributes between two pools and having drastically less damage than others, and we can finally stop pushing pure stat sets as the only viable means of increasing damage output.

You hybrid build will still stink because penetration is keyed off two different statistics. Crit is also keyed off two different statistics. The champion system has different stars for magicka and stamina DPS stuff.

All you'll be doing is dumbing down and simplifying the game.

The reason hybrids don;t work is because the game is "modem" as you put it with the introduction of the Champion system. If we went back to the "archaic" system that existed before 1.6, a hybrid build could work well enough.

GrumpyDuckling · February 2018

code65536 wrote: »

No.

This is what it used to be, and people just stacked health, and good riddance that's gone. It's ridiculous that people yearn for a return to those dark ages.

The issue of stacking health has a simple fix, which is balancing resources in a way that makes resources matter for sustain. So if a player wants to go all health, then their magicka/stamina sustain suffers.

Peekachu99 · February 2018

Actually tying Regen to max attributes is a great idea. So you cast more and faster (or self-heal), but do less damage. Would make for both more binary and interesting combos.

idk · February 2018

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

No.

This is what it used to be, and people just stacked health, and good riddance that's gone. It's ridiculous that people yearn for a return to those dark ages.

The issue of stacking health has a simple fix, which is balancing resources in a way that makes resources matter for sustain. So if a player wants to go all health, then their magicka/stamina sustain suffers.

Not really. The era of the game Code speaks of, sustain was easy to get. I cannot recall having an issue with sustain at all. I would post a SS of my character sheet from back then if it would help though I think regen of less than 100 would not prove the point for most since they may actually think that is low even though it was not.

Besides, again, hybrids would still be the weaker builds.

Faulgor · February 2018

If only.

Having one stat that increases your resource, your damage, and your healing / defense is just terrible RPG-design, I'm sorry to say.
That leads to the situation we have now where you have magicka and stamina builds, which are essentially the same just in different colors.

Even after all these years, it's still showing that ESO had no coherent vision for its character system, and was overhauled several times during development. I wish they would rethink the whole deal, including the champion system, but players are just too reluctant to change.

Vermintide · February 2018

Kwik1 wrote: »

From day ONE, ESO has said they are NOT elder scrolls. They have been very clear that this game would be significantly different while trying to keep the lore.

If you want to play Elder Scrolls, play Skyrim. If you want to play ESO, play ESO.

Woah. And to think all this time, I thought I was playing Elder Scrolls Online, I was actually just playing Online.

DoctorESO · February 2018

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Destruent · February 2018

DoctorESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

I agree with this. I made a poll about it a few weeks ago (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390260/should-damage-dealing-be-unhinged-from-max-magicka-stamina/p1).

52% agreed with unhinging resource pools from damage dealing.

The community hath spoken

This just shows, that atleast 50% of the forum-community does not have an in-depht understanding of esos game mechanics. Unlinking dmg from ressources would just cause one thing: everyone ran around with 40k+ HP.
Does it really sound good to have tankbuilds with the DPS-output of actual DPS_builds?

Actually, people who do that may have trouble with DPS sustain...

Max-Stats do not increase your sustain ffs. I used to DPS on my tank when we don't need an offtank and had all attribute-points into HP. Sustainissues? nope...not at all. Your max-Stats cover for the first seconds, but afterwards you need regen or heavy-attacks or whatever, but no max-stats...

Yolokin_Swagonborn · February 2018

There a way to compromise with this. A way to bring back some of the benefits of softcaps but make them a bit less restrictive.

Instead of completely unlinking attributes and damage, what if we just capped the effect at a given stat amount? This amount could be adjusted until the sweet spot is found.

One of the worst things in PvP is battle spirit cutting everything in half. This makes some skills and sets useless because they just aren't scaled correctly. But battle spirit was necessary because people started stacking attributes that made damage, heals and shield get crazy strong.

So what if they did this instead:

The scaling of heals, shields, and damage is capped at 25k for magicka/Stamina and at 35k for health.
You can still stack 50k magicka but it wont give you massive shields, just a larger pool to cast from.

Now you can adjust or completely get rid of battle spirit. That in turn will fix so many broken and unused sets that will finally be useful again, such as whitestrakes that used to be a good anti-ganking set but now the shield strength was cut in half by battle spirit and its useless.

This is smarter, less punishing softcaps.

DoctorESO · February 2018

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MaxwellC · February 2018

@Lynx7386
I don't think that'll ever happen and that is primarily due to ZOS ignoring or even having a holy trinity but also balancing around armor/cp rather than the classes themselves.
The reason for it is most likely its easier since you just have to worry about what armor/cp does rather than worrying about the classes having more influence.

Destruent · February 2018

DoctorESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

I agree with this. I made a poll about it a few weeks ago (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390260/should-damage-dealing-be-unhinged-from-max-magicka-stamina/p1).

52% agreed with unhinging resource pools from damage dealing.

The community hath spoken

This just shows, that atleast 50% of the forum-community does not have an in-depht understanding of esos game mechanics. Unlinking dmg from ressources would just cause one thing: everyone ran around with 40k+ HP.
Does it really sound good to have tankbuilds with the DPS-output of actual DPS_builds?

Actually, people who do that may have trouble with DPS sustain...

Max-Stats do not increase your sustain ffs. I used to DPS on my tank when we don't need an offtank and had all attribute-points into HP. Sustainissues? nope...not at all. Your max-Stats cover for the first seconds, but afterwards you need regen or heavy-attacks or whatever, but no max-stats...

And aren't the first few seconds important in a PvP fight...?

You already completely blow all your ressources in the first seconds in pvp? If not, there's plenty of room foor more HP. And at this point you need real sustain to kill your enemy...bc they will also have 40k+ HP

Sergykid · February 2018

i agree with boosting the attributes. Giving only raw resources seems low, a regen added for investing in a resource sounds good. But, nobody invests in HP, maybe in PVE only. In PVP, even tanks go for stam or mag, so they can 1vX or have enough stam to hold block. This will make dps hit harder since they can get off some regen into other stuff.

GrumpyDuckling · February 2018

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

No.

This is what it used to be, and people just stacked health, and good riddance that's gone. It's ridiculous that people yearn for a return to those dark ages.

The issue of stacking health has a simple fix, which is balancing resources in a way that makes resources matter for sustain. So if a player wants to go all health, then their magicka/stamina sustain suffers.

Not really. The era of the game Code speaks of, sustain was easy to get. I cannot recall having an issue with sustain at all. I would post a SS of my character sheet from back then if it would help though I think regen of less than 100 would not prove the point for most since they may actually think that is low even though it was not.

Besides, again, hybrids would still be the weaker builds.

Sustain from "back then" doesn't matter.

All that would matter would be balance changes to sustain that would be implemented if damage was removed from attributes.

idk · February 2018

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

There a way to compromise with this. A way to bring back some of the benefits of softcaps but make them a bit less restrictive.

Instead of completely unlinking attributes and damage, what if we just capped the effect at a given stat amount? This amount could be adjusted until the sweet spot is found.

This is how the game was in it's first year. Code posted about this earlier in this thread. We merely put the extra into health and no matter how we placed them hybrids were still weaker.

It really does not matter what one does with the three max stats. Hybrids will be weaker. The base game design dictates this with weapon/spell damage and crit not to mention CP. Zos is not going to redesign this game for this and every game has builds that work with the system and shine and builds that do not take the game design into account and perform to a lesser level.

Lysette · February 2018

Stovahkiin wrote: »

Agreed. The last hybrid build I worked on was fun, but overall it failed miserably in the dps department compared to my other chars.

Hybrid builds can nevertheless make sense in PvE and solo play, where one cannot count on support of others, but has to be self-sustainable. A pure max damage build is not always the best here - even more damage means less long to have to maintain oneself - still, a hybrid build in PvE can be fun to play but at the same time it will be useless in PvP, I guess.

I am all for having separate attribute/skill sets for PvE regions and PvP regions - this would make it far more fun to play.

josiahva · February 2018

Honestly, with hybrids currently capable of 28k+ DPS I really don't see them as being in a terrible spot. Its quite fair...sure, they cant reach the 40k+ of a pure build, but that is the cost of being hybrid...you pay for lower DPS with a far larger toolkit and survivability, and 28k DPS is plenty enough DPS to run just about any content you want to in this game.

As to the topic itself, its true that resource pool size shouldn't have any bearing on maximum damage.

Teridaxus · February 2018

I would rather see a split between damage and healing scaling from the same resources first.

LordSemaj · February 2018

josiahva wrote: »

As to the topic itself, its true that resource pool size shouldn't have any bearing on maximum damage.

Indeed, and since current resource floors are about 12k while maxes are around 40k, that's a lot of DPS differential. Resource pools truly should only represent your burst potential and ability to string multiple skills in a row. It would even add to the skill level of the game if players were forced to bring lower resource pools to maximize DPS because it means a smaller margin of error. You can't accidentally use the wrong skill or screw up your rotation because it will make you run out of resources with no way of reacting to situations until you restore them.

It would separate the good DPSers from the bad DPSers and even murder off the ones who can't handle small resource pools.

jaye63 · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

This needs to be done. Dumping your points into magicka or stamina should not result in a direct increase to your weapon and spell damage. This system is the bane of hybrid builds, it's the bane of tanks for overland content, and it's an archaic system that makes absolutely no sense with the modern state of the game.

Fix it via the following:

-Attributes no longer effect actual damage.
-Increase the resource pool gain of attributes, enchants, gear, and sets that increase magicka or stamina.
-Work the lost damage from the above changes into base weapon and spell damage, and into set bonuses.

A player can now put points into attributes, or use attribute focused sets, for the sole purpose of having a larger resource pool to utilize for damage, healing, or utility. Tanks will have slightly more resources and slightly better damage potential when soloing, hybrids will no longer suffer from splitting their attributes between two pools and having drastically less damage than others, and we can finally stop pushing pure stat sets as the only viable means of increasing damage output.

While I agree with your premise, your fix doesnt do anything to address the problem. The real fix would be to remove dmg associated with max resource pools and increase dmg from other sources.

But I also agree with the way it is. Why? Instead of having to focus on dmg, you can up your health, up your crit%, up your dmg mitigation, etc.

If your suggestion was implimented, it would destroy the system causing everyone to have to rebuild every toon. Does there need to be a fix? Probably. But with so many mechanics needing to be adjusted, it wouldnt be an easy one. Which is probably why it will never happen.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2018

Your suggestion is a rough estimation of what I've suggested since the great attribute change in the game. I still believe attributes should be reconsidered in a different way than they are currently.

Feidam · February 2018

jaye63 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

This needs to be done. Dumping your points into magicka or stamina should not result in a direct increase to your weapon and spell damage. This system is the bane of hybrid builds, it's the bane of tanks for overland content, and it's an archaic system that makes absolutely no sense with the modern state of the game.

Fix it via the following:

-Attributes no longer effect actual damage.
-Increase the resource pool gain of attributes, enchants, gear, and sets that increase magicka or stamina.
-Work the lost damage from the above changes into base weapon and spell damage, and into set bonuses.

A player can now put points into attributes, or use attribute focused sets, for the sole purpose of having a larger resource pool to utilize for damage, healing, or utility. Tanks will have slightly more resources and slightly better damage potential when soloing, hybrids will no longer suffer from splitting their attributes between two pools and having drastically less damage than others, and we can finally stop pushing pure stat sets as the only viable means of increasing damage output.

While I agree with your premise, your fix doesnt do anything to address the problem. The real fix would be to remove dmg associated with max resource pools and increase dmg from other sources.

But I also agree with the way it is. Why? Instead of having to focus on dmg, you can up your health, up your crit%, up your dmg mitigation, etc.

If your suggestion was implimented, it would destroy the system causing everyone to have to rebuild every toon. Does there need to be a fix? Probably. But with so many mechanics needing to be adjusted, it wouldnt be an easy one. Which is probably why it will never happen.

If the sets are changed to naturally reflect this the retooling of anyone one characters armor won’t be a big deal. Besides that occurs now anyway when the add and nerf stuff.

QuebraRegra · February 2018

remember softcaps? probably not huh?

Kolache · February 2018

Why not just have the combined magicka/stamina resource pools contribute to both damage types?

Player-A has:
40k magicka
10k stamina
20k health

Player-B has:
25k magicka
25k stamina
20k health

And they both have the same damage bonuses to stamina/magicka... that would stop people from just boosting health if they needed damage. People would base their resource pool allocation more on what they actually needed to have more resources for.

LordSemaj · February 2018

^ That

jaye63 · February 2018

Feidam wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

This needs to be done. Dumping your points into magicka or stamina should not result in a direct increase to your weapon and spell damage. This system is the bane of hybrid builds, it's the bane of tanks for overland content, and it's an archaic system that makes absolutely no sense with the modern state of the game.

Fix it via the following:

-Attributes no longer effect actual damage.
-Increase the resource pool gain of attributes, enchants, gear, and sets that increase magicka or stamina.
-Work the lost damage from the above changes into base weapon and spell damage, and into set bonuses.

A player can now put points into attributes, or use attribute focused sets, for the sole purpose of having a larger resource pool to utilize for damage, healing, or utility. Tanks will have slightly more resources and slightly better damage potential when soloing, hybrids will no longer suffer from splitting their attributes between two pools and having drastically less damage than others, and we can finally stop pushing pure stat sets as the only viable means of increasing damage output.

While I agree with your premise, your fix doesnt do anything to address the problem. The real fix would be to remove dmg associated with max resource pools and increase dmg from other sources.

But I also agree with the way it is. Why? Instead of having to focus on dmg, you can up your health, up your crit%, up your dmg mitigation, etc.

If your suggestion was implimented, it would destroy the system causing everyone to have to rebuild every toon. Does there need to be a fix? Probably. But with so many mechanics needing to be adjusted, it wouldnt be an easy one. Which is probably why it will never happen.

If the sets are changed to naturally reflect this the retooling of anyone one characters armor won’t be a big deal. Besides that occurs now anyway when the add and nerf stuff.

You comment ignores what I said..."...with so many mechanics needing to be adjusted, it wouldnt be an easy one. Which is probably why it will never happen." You're talking about retooling the whole thing. It is what it is.

Im constantly amazed how people never complain about single player game mechanics but shred MMO mechanics. There's no difference. You buy a game for what it is and you play it or you send it to the $5 bin at gamestop. Unless some thing is so broke it's killing the game, it's not going to happen. By your statements Im pretty sure I can safely say you know nothing about coding. It's not like doing a google search where you can type in Attributes and those lines of code appear along with several other suggestions. If you knew how many lines of code are in a game like this... the DL is several gigs. A letter on a text document is what? 10-20 Kilobytes? 1024 kilobytes = a megabyte. 1024 megabytes = a gigabyte. Do the math and see how huge that file is and then tell me again how you want some one running thru all of that code and possibly getting the wrong one(s) and maybe breaking the game. Cuz it happens.

Feidam · February 2018

Of course it isn’t as flipping a light switch. And they do break the game with code all the time. Any mmo does. And unlike single player games mmo’s are always changing and evolving. Lower the aggression quotient there. People can disagree without the need to get angry.

The fact is the current system in ESO is not what it started with. So that right there lessens your point anyway. In a game that is touted as play the way you want it is rather limiting.

JackDaniell · February 2018

Hello everyone, i have lots of experiece playing and building hybrids. So to the OPs sugestion i say no.

If you were to remove max stats making up a portion of your damage the entire premise of buildcraft will change. If you have enough sustain past a certain point everyone will just dump points in health REGARDLESS of you role/spec.

Hybrids also have some qualities players (those who havent played one) tend to miss or overlook.

1. Sustain on a hybrid is better then a pure build with the same regen numbers. This is because you have 2 25k pools to pull from and during a fight you will likley never have both bars full on recources. This means if you have 1k stam/mag regen you get almost 100% of it during a fight.
A pure build will have one large and one small pool, and during the course of a fight the small pool is often full so you wnd up only gwtting about 70% of your regen values during a fight.
TLDR hybrids manage and use recources better.

2. Hybrids damage is about 15% off a similar pure, however you get access to many more skills, my templar for example can utilize empower spam from solar barrage to make my 2h skills hit as hard as an unempowerd pure build as well as solar barrage dealing good damage chunks. So a good skill combination could make or break the hybrid.

3. Hybrids are harder to build, but not necisarily hard to build. The rule to building a hybrid is focus on damage. Pelinals is the BEST and EASIEST hybrid to build cause you just stack weapon damage. As mentioned before you dont need allot of regen. Finaly you want to make sure you are only using mundus/glyphs that effect both your damages, so warrior on pelinals or thief/shadow/lover if your using another build route. Use tri stat glyphs, this essentialy provides free hp while maintaining your agressive stats.

So what would make more hybrids viable?

I think brids are strong, but not quite compedative yet. To unlock a hybrids full potential without making them op i think thier is one simple fix.

Add a gold +max stam/mag + stam/mag regen food. Hybrids dont need the hp from food and this would provide the brid with huge regen and damage support. With this food my hybrids stats would be
23k hp (pvp)
26k mag/stam
1300 mag/stam regen (this is allot for a brid)
4900 wep/spell damage
32% wep/spell crit

Not bad eh?

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Kolache wrote: »

Why not just have the combined magicka/stamina resource pools contribute to both damage types?

Player-A has:
40k magicka
10k stamina
20k health

Player-B has:
25k magicka
25k stamina
20k health

And they both have the same damage bonuses to stamina/magicka... that would stop people from just boosting health if they needed damage. People would base their resource pool allocation more on what they actually needed to have more resources for.

I like this idea, its a good compromise(and more than that it'll benefit tanks tremendously, so I'm all for it)