Update 24 and the Dragonhold DLC Game Pack are both now available for testing on the PTS! Experience the amazing conclusion to the Season of the Dragon saga. You can read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/493609/ 
Maintenance for the week of September 16:
· [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 17,  4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] Xbox One: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – September 17,  4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] PlayStation®4: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – September 17,  4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 5.2.0 is available. You can read the full patch notes: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/493609

Powerlash & Searing Strike 3.3.3

  • Derra
    Derra
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    Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.

    Dueling/1v1 should have as much place in a discussion as battleground builds and cyrodiil pvp. All of them are from ZOS aknowledged forms of pvp by now.

    Otherwise you can dismiss most arguments to balance with the argument of more people balancing things out or making microbalancing irrelevant.
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • FloppyTouch
    FloppyTouch
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    Derra wrote: »
    Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.

    Dueling/1v1 should have as much place in a discussion as battleground builds and cyrodiil pvp. All of them are from ZOS aknowledged forms of pvp by now.

    Otherwise you can dismiss most arguments to balance with the argument of more people balancing things out or making microbalancing irrelevant.

    I disagree a class preforming well is duels should not be the benchmark for nerfs. Duels are a fun activity to do with friends or to learn ur burst rotation. Having duels be a part of the discussion only leads to unnecessary nerfs and effects a class further in group play.

    PvP even battlegrounds is mainly group play not 1v1. I love dueling but would never consider it a way on how a class is OP or underperforming.

    To add to this some classes like nb are a stealth class made for catching people off guard and ganking them. They don’t do so well in a duel bc ur taking away some of the strongest aspects of the class. Duels also remove some of the items and tactics used in open world like immovable pots and LoS. Duels also use builds that most would not use in a group play environment like full burst build with little recovery or sets that might be great 1v1 but are terrible in open world.

    We have many forms of pvp but the main is group play open world pvp and that’s what classes should be balance around.
    Edited by FloppyTouch on February 2, 2018 9:03AM
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Derra wrote: »
    Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.

    Dueling/1v1 should have as much place in a discussion as battleground builds and cyrodiil pvp. All of them are from ZOS aknowledged forms of pvp by now.

    Otherwise you can dismiss most arguments to balance with the argument of more people balancing things out or making microbalancing irrelevant.

    I disagree a class preforming well is duels should not be the benchmark for nerfs. Duels are a fun activity to do with friends or to learn ur burst rotation. Having duels be a part of the discussion only leads to unnecessary nerfs and effects a class further in group play.

    PvP even battlegrounds is mainly group play not 1v1. I love dueling but would never consider it a way on how a class is OP or underperforming.

    To add to this some classes like nb are a stealth class made for catching people off guard and ganking them. They don’t do so well in a duel bc ur taking away some of the strongest aspects of the class. Duels also remove some of the items and tactics used in open world like immovable pots and LoS. Duels also use builds that most would not use in a group play environment like full burst build with little recovery or sets that might be great 1v1 but are terrible in open world.

    We have many forms of pvp but the main is group play open world pvp and that’s what classes should be balance around.

    Well i disagree completely - bc quite frankly said if someone is somewhat adapt in build and theorycrafting nothing keeps them from putting the mechanics that overperform in duels into smallgrp play practice.
    Sometimes that even makes matters worse (sometimes not - my personal feeling is that problematic defense is less problematic in grps while problematic offense is even more so in a grp setting).

    Having undodgeable whip, embers, birbs, nb finisher and whatnot was simply bad for anything ranging up to 6ppl grps - at that point it gets arguably irrelevant.

    Mind you i don´t think the game should be balanced around duels nor should classes power solely assessed based on duels. But neither do i think 1v1 performance should be completely ignored.
    In that regard I just think dueling gives a very strong insight on mechanics that overperform in these 1v1 scenarios - that happen a lot in everyday cyrodiil.

    Also can´t agree on your assessment of the NB class. It´s an option to catch people off guard and gank. The class does fine in duels though and is definetly on one of the top classes for stam and magica - with the exception of medium stamblade confronted with a build that has a lot of undodgeable nonsense in it.
    Edited by Derra on February 2, 2018 9:30AM
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • FloppyTouch
    FloppyTouch
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    Derra wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.

    Dueling/1v1 should have as much place in a discussion as battleground builds and cyrodiil pvp. All of them are from ZOS aknowledged forms of pvp by now.

    Otherwise you can dismiss most arguments to balance with the argument of more people balancing things out or making microbalancing irrelevant.

    I disagree a class preforming well is duels should not be the benchmark for nerfs. Duels are a fun activity to do with friends or to learn ur burst rotation. Having duels be a part of the discussion only leads to unnecessary nerfs and effects a class further in group play.

    PvP even battlegrounds is mainly group play not 1v1. I love dueling but would never consider it a way on how a class is OP or underperforming.

    To add to this some classes like nb are a stealth class made for catching people off guard and ganking them. They don’t do so well in a duel bc ur taking away some of the strongest aspects of the class. Duels also remove some of the items and tactics used in open world like immovable pots and LoS. Duels also use builds that most would not use in a group play environment like full burst build with little recovery or sets that might be great 1v1 but are terrible in open world.

    We have many forms of pvp but the main is group play open world pvp and that’s what classes should be balance around.

    Well i disagree completely - bc quite frankly said if someone is somewhat adapt in build and theorycrafting nothing keeps them from putting the mechanics that overperform in duels into smallgrp play practice.
    Sometimes that even makes matters worse (sometimes not - my personal feeling is that problematic defense is less problematic in grps while problematic offense is even more so in a grp setting).

    Having undodgeable whip, embers, birbs, nb finisher and whatnot was simply bad for anything ranging up to 6ppl grps - at that point it gets arguably irrelevant.

    Mind you i don´t think the game should be balanced around duels nor should classes power solely assessed based on duels. But neither do i think 1v1 performance should be completely ignored.
    In that regard I just think dueling gives a very strong insight on mechanics that overperform in these 1v1 scenarios - that happen a lot in everyday cyrodiil.

    Also can´t agree on your assessment of the NB class. It´s an option to catch people off guard and gank. The class does fine in duels though and is definetly on one of the top classes for stam and magica - with the exception of medium stamblade confronted with a build that has a lot of undodgeable nonsense in it.

    We are going to have to agree to disagree then
    Edited by FloppyTouch on February 2, 2018 9:41AM
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Derra wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.

    Dueling/1v1 should have as much place in a discussion as battleground builds and cyrodiil pvp. All of them are from ZOS aknowledged forms of pvp by now.

    Otherwise you can dismiss most arguments to balance with the argument of more people balancing things out or making microbalancing irrelevant.

    I disagree a class preforming well is duels should not be the benchmark for nerfs. Duels are a fun activity to do with friends or to learn ur burst rotation. Having duels be a part of the discussion only leads to unnecessary nerfs and effects a class further in group play.

    PvP even battlegrounds is mainly group play not 1v1. I love dueling but would never consider it a way on how a class is OP or underperforming.

    To add to this some classes like nb are a stealth class made for catching people off guard and ganking them. They don’t do so well in a duel bc ur taking away some of the strongest aspects of the class. Duels also remove some of the items and tactics used in open world like immovable pots and LoS. Duels also use builds that most would not use in a group play environment like full burst build with little recovery or sets that might be great 1v1 but are terrible in open world.

    We have many forms of pvp but the main is group play open world pvp and that’s what classes should be balance around.

    Well i disagree completely - bc quite frankly said if someone is somewhat adapt in build and theorycrafting nothing keeps them from putting the mechanics that overperform in duels into smallgrp play practice.
    Sometimes that even makes matters worse (sometimes not - my personal feeling is that problematic defense is less problematic in grps while problematic offense is even more so in a grp setting).

    Having undodgeable whip, embers, birbs, nb finisher and whatnot was simply bad for anything ranging up to 6ppl grps - at that point it gets arguably irrelevant.

    Mind you i don´t think the game should be balanced around duels nor should classes power solely assessed based on duels. But neither do i think 1v1 performance should be completely ignored.
    In that regard I just think dueling gives a very strong insight on mechanics that overperform in these 1v1 scenarios - that happen a lot in everyday cyrodiil.

    Also can´t agree on your assessment of the NB class. It´s an option to catch people off guard and gank. The class does fine in duels though and is definetly on one of the top classes for stam and magica - with the exception of medium stamblade confronted with a build that has a lot of undodgeable nonsense in it.

    We are going to have to agree to disagree then

    Would you be so kind to elaborate how having undodgeable birbs/whip/embers was desireable from a gamemechanical pov when looking at a fight vs medium armor opponents?

    Just disregard everything else of my post but i´m genuinly curious why people think having undodgeable high dmg singletarget abilities should be a thing i times of stacking dodgecost increase.
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Derra wrote: »

    Would you be so kind to elaborate how having undodgeable birbs/whip/embers was desireable from a gamemechanical pov when looking at a fight vs medium armor opponents?

    Just disregard everything else of my post but i´m genuinly curious why people think having undodgeable high dmg singletarget abilities should be a thing i times of stacking dodgecost increase.

    TLDR: the bolded part.

    My opinion. Dodge roll defense is too good, even with the stacking cost (if anyone is dodging less because of it, it certainly isn't very noticeable to me - they all roll dodge all the time anyway). Especially in a fight involving multiple people, where other defenses like shielding and blocking can get overwhelmed, dodge still performs at 100% effectiveness because it does not care how many attackers are attacking you, it dodges it all.

    Thus, having attacks that ignore dodge is desirable to counteract the above.
  • zParallaxz
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    DDuke wrote: »
    It is not one sided to mDK. Medium builds have and can win against mDK just as fine as mDKs can kill glass cannon med builds. Well built medium builds are harder to kill than a heavy build due to sheer amount of damage and sustain allowing them to heal virtually untouched unless mDK itself is stacking up damage. But when mDK focuses on damage stacking, it will die sooner or later due to lack of sustain and/or tankiness. Usually damage stacked mDKs tend to die just after dizzying (or whatever spammable they use) -> Dawnbreaker -> Execute. Takes like 2 to 3 seconds. This is why mDKs run s/b most of the times as it is their only real source of mitigation through blocking.

    Even defense focused builds can be bursted in 2-3 seconds in light armor the moment pressure amounts (usually resources are gone through poison and in trying to deal with the pressure). Also, medium armor DoT builds with bleeding that goes through any resistance is very much a killer as well. Cannot heal through that damage pretty much. It is like a defile that makes mDK waste their magicka pool real fast trying to survive. It is not really one sided in mDK's favor.

    Right, except the maximum potential burst you can take in 5/1/1 light armor (no S&B) is 19k, and your Healing Ward (only dmg shield in the game that scales also with spell dmg) outheals/shields entire rotations from your opponent. Not that these builds ever really get to go on offensive (unless they're Xv1'ing, as usual, in which case you shield/fossilize spam until you've got ulti & then kill them all).

    It takes one Fossilize to turn the whole fight around once you've CC break'd their Incap/whatever & Healing Warded.

    I can understand immobile S&B builds having trouble killing (maybe even surviving if there's Defile) medium armor builds if they have Troll King, but not high dmg mDKs.

    It's the most onesided fight in the entire game at the moment, you'd have better chances against mDK as a naked magicka sorcerer.

    Have you never fought an Immovability Troll King Eternal Hunt Dodgeblade?

    Use a better build on your Nightblade if you seriously have that much trouble against magDKs.

    They are not the counter to medium builds that you seem to think they are, and they certainly can't have BOTH the damage to kill those medium builds AND the bulk to survive their burst, as well as they sustain to spam Healing Ward as you like to advocate.

    Fight some ACTUAL good medium builds and not random pugs you asked to let you smack them with your Flame Lash until they die and call it a "combat test."

    You have posted nothing but negativity and contrarian, edgy word vomit in EVERY magDK thread.

    Cease derailment or cease talking.

    Damn that magdk burn
  • zParallaxz
    zParallaxz
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    DDuke wrote: »
    krathos wrote: »
    "duel me bro" ya except nobody is arguing that DK is bad in duels. We're arguing that the open world toolkit has been continuously watered down and could use some attention as DK was designed to work with several systems/mechanics that are no longer viable. You're even saying that these players who are in roll builds beat you 90% of the time if they just switch builds. So why is so terrible that we continue to discuss the weaknesses of both stamina and magicka DK asking for direction from ZOS regarding their vision for the class?

    Well, I die less often to the heavy armor bleed builds in PTS thanks to the cooldown reduction on Power Lash (those builds generally don't dodge at all), having those PL heals up almost 24/7 helps immensely in mitigating the bleeds, so you don't drop into kill range so easily.

    That's why I think the changes are excellent in this update: better fights vs dodge rollers, better fights vs heavy armor bleed builds, dmg shield builds (e.g. pet sorcs etc) - it's just generally more balanced across the board.


    But yeah, I do realize that's just my build I'm talking about and there's plenty of others.

    So what ZOS should do is buff skills used by other builds, if the changes in this update make dodge rollers too hard to kill for tankier builds with less dmg.

    I think it'd be very simple; just significantly buffing Ash Cloud radius & making the damage ramp up the longer someone stays in it (meaning big, bursty ticks if someone stands in it say, 5 seconds) could make the more stationary tank DK very strong against those melee builds, but that skill still wouldn't be slotted by destro/resto DKs who like to move around & stick to people with Chains.

    That's a win-win situation.


    The worst thing they can do is roll back the changes, because then we're back at square one & I do think the Off Balance/Power Lash changes are overall a buff to mDK, even S&B ones.

    From all the talk dude in starting to think your trolling and just blowing smoke up peoples butts. Let me see a clip of you fighting a decent stamplar wearing a fortified brass build with quick cloak.
  • Ariades_swe
    Ariades_swe
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    zParallaxz wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    It is not one sided to mDK. Medium builds have and can win against mDK just as fine as mDKs can kill glass cannon med builds. Well built medium builds are harder to kill than a heavy build due to sheer amount of damage and sustain allowing them to heal virtually untouched unless mDK itself is stacking up damage. But when mDK focuses on damage stacking, it will die sooner or later due to lack of sustain and/or tankiness. Usually damage stacked mDKs tend to die just after dizzying (or whatever spammable they use) -> Dawnbreaker -> Execute. Takes like 2 to 3 seconds. This is why mDKs run s/b most of the times as it is their only real source of mitigation through blocking.

    Even defense focused builds can be bursted in 2-3 seconds in light armor the moment pressure amounts (usually resources are gone through poison and in trying to deal with the pressure). Also, medium armor DoT builds with bleeding that goes through any resistance is very much a killer as well. Cannot heal through that damage pretty much. It is like a defile that makes mDK waste their magicka pool real fast trying to survive. It is not really one sided in mDK's favor.

    Right, except the maximum potential burst you can take in 5/1/1 light armor (no S&B) is 19k, and your Healing Ward (only dmg shield in the game that scales also with spell dmg) outheals/shields entire rotations from your opponent. Not that these builds ever really get to go on offensive (unless they're Xv1'ing, as usual, in which case you shield/fossilize spam until you've got ulti & then kill them all).

    It takes one Fossilize to turn the whole fight around once you've CC break'd their Incap/whatever & Healing Warded.

    I can understand immobile S&B builds having trouble killing (maybe even surviving if there's Defile) medium armor builds if they have Troll King, but not high dmg mDKs.

    It's the most onesided fight in the entire game at the moment, you'd have better chances against mDK as a naked magicka sorcerer.

    Have you never fought an Immovability Troll King Eternal Hunt Dodgeblade?

    Yes, plenty (that's a very popular open world build). They've zero chance of surviving longer than 10-20 seconds thanks to Empowering Chains on my bar & 8m range on Whip, which lets you hit them while you're bypassing mines from the side. I prefer fighting these builds in 1vX, less chance of dying than if I'm being pummeled by multiple high dmg gankers.
    Use a better build on your Nightblade if you seriously have that much trouble against magDKs.

    ...and maybe you should consider a better different build on mDK if you have trouble against medium armor players?
    They are not the counter to medium builds that you seem to think they are, and they certainly can't have BOTH the damage to kill those medium builds AND the bulk to survive their burst, as well as they sustain to spam Healing Ward as you like to advocate.

    Sure you can, I have videos on my channel proving such builds work. I can duel any medium armor person of your choosing to prove that as well (on Live, or on PTS). As it happens, you get both damage and survivability by stacking spell dmg/magicka, since Healing Ward scales with both. And a mDK with Eyes of Mara resto bar can easily sustain spamming Healing Ward.
    Fight some ACTUAL good medium builds and not random pugs you asked to let you smack them with your Flame Lash until they die and call it a "combat test."

    Like whom? Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate? :lol:
    You have posted nothing but negativity and contrarian, edgy word vomit in EVERY magDK thread.

    Cease derailment or cease talking.

    I'm merely getting the facts straight.

    If you have problems vs medium armor builds as a magicka DK, that's entirely a L2P issue, and I'm sure pretty much every good player in this game would agree with that.


    Now shoo, I'm sure you have thread number #13 or #14 to create.
    I almost thought you may have been good until you mentioned using empowering chains. LOL GTFO

    Shots fired.
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »

    Would you be so kind to elaborate how having undodgeable birbs/whip/embers was desireable from a gamemechanical pov when looking at a fight vs medium armor opponents?

    Just disregard everything else of my post but i´m genuinly curious why people think having undodgeable high dmg singletarget abilities should be a thing i times of stacking dodgecost increase.

    TLDR: the bolded part.

    My opinion. Dodge roll defense is too good, even with the stacking cost (if anyone is dodging less because of it, it certainly isn't very noticeable to me - they all roll dodge all the time anyway). Especially in a fight involving multiple people, where other defenses like shielding and blocking can get overwhelmed, dodge still performs at 100% effectiveness because it does not care how many attackers are attacking you, it dodges it all.

    Thus, having attacks that ignore dodge is desirable to counteract the above.

    Oh but every aoe (if zos sticks to their word) will be undodgeable to counteract that. All dots that are already applied on the target will counteract that.
    Abilities like curse, backlash, purifying light, chains, sub assault, etc pp will all counteract that.

    I don´t disagree with attacks being undodgeable per se. I just disagree with birbs as a spammable and two abilities that apart from dealing competetive dmg have the strongest hots in the game assosciated as a "secondary" effect to them.

    zParallaxz wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    It is not one sided to mDK. Medium builds have and can win against mDK just as fine as mDKs can kill glass cannon med builds. Well built medium builds are harder to kill than a heavy build due to sheer amount of damage and sustain allowing them to heal virtually untouched unless mDK itself is stacking up damage. But when mDK focuses on damage stacking, it will die sooner or later due to lack of sustain and/or tankiness. Usually damage stacked mDKs tend to die just after dizzying (or whatever spammable they use) -> Dawnbreaker -> Execute. Takes like 2 to 3 seconds. This is why mDKs run s/b most of the times as it is their only real source of mitigation through blocking.

    Even defense focused builds can be bursted in 2-3 seconds in light armor the moment pressure amounts (usually resources are gone through poison and in trying to deal with the pressure). Also, medium armor DoT builds with bleeding that goes through any resistance is very much a killer as well. Cannot heal through that damage pretty much. It is like a defile that makes mDK waste their magicka pool real fast trying to survive. It is not really one sided in mDK's favor.

    Right, except the maximum potential burst you can take in 5/1/1 light armor (no S&B) is 19k, and your Healing Ward (only dmg shield in the game that scales also with spell dmg) outheals/shields entire rotations from your opponent. Not that these builds ever really get to go on offensive (unless they're Xv1'ing, as usual, in which case you shield/fossilize spam until you've got ulti & then kill them all).

    It takes one Fossilize to turn the whole fight around once you've CC break'd their Incap/whatever & Healing Warded.

    I can understand immobile S&B builds having trouble killing (maybe even surviving if there's Defile) medium armor builds if they have Troll King, but not high dmg mDKs.

    It's the most onesided fight in the entire game at the moment, you'd have better chances against mDK as a naked magicka sorcerer.

    Have you never fought an Immovability Troll King Eternal Hunt Dodgeblade?

    Yes, plenty (that's a very popular open world build). They've zero chance of surviving longer than 10-20 seconds thanks to Empowering Chains on my bar & 8m range on Whip, which lets you hit them while you're bypassing mines from the side. I prefer fighting these builds in 1vX, less chance of dying than if I'm being pummeled by multiple high dmg gankers.
    Use a better build on your Nightblade if you seriously have that much trouble against magDKs.

    ...and maybe you should consider a better different build on mDK if you have trouble against medium armor players?
    They are not the counter to medium builds that you seem to think they are, and they certainly can't have BOTH the damage to kill those medium builds AND the bulk to survive their burst, as well as they sustain to spam Healing Ward as you like to advocate.

    Sure you can, I have videos on my channel proving such builds work. I can duel any medium armor person of your choosing to prove that as well (on Live, or on PTS). As it happens, you get both damage and survivability by stacking spell dmg/magicka, since Healing Ward scales with both. And a mDK with Eyes of Mara resto bar can easily sustain spamming Healing Ward.
    Fight some ACTUAL good medium builds and not random pugs you asked to let you smack them with your Flame Lash until they die and call it a "combat test."

    Like whom? Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate? :lol:
    You have posted nothing but negativity and contrarian, edgy word vomit in EVERY magDK thread.

    Cease derailment or cease talking.

    I'm merely getting the facts straight.

    If you have problems vs medium armor builds as a magicka DK, that's entirely a L2P issue, and I'm sure pretty much every good player in this game would agree with that.


    Now shoo, I'm sure you have thread number #13 or #14 to create.
    I almost thought you may have been good until you mentioned using empowering chains. LOL GTFO

    You´re probably one of those DKs waddling around with rightmouse taped down that will throw a hissy fit when their targets have the audacity to stay out of melee range and slowly wear them down without the DK ever attacking once.

    It´s one of the best gapclosers in the game being undodgeable and providing major expedition + empower while working as consistently as other gapclosers do (except for templar charge that one is still trash).

    DKs not slotting gapclosers bc chains is supposedly "crap" is just nonsense spread by some DK players still stuck in their 1.5 glory days.
    Even bigboss can manage to use chains reliably to stick to a target. Even that guy. Every DK claiming they can´t is basically admitting they´re worse than bigboss.
    Edited by Derra on February 2, 2018 12:30PM
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    zParallaxz wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    It is not one sided to mDK. Medium builds have and can win against mDK just as fine as mDKs can kill glass cannon med builds. Well built medium builds are harder to kill than a heavy build due to sheer amount of damage and sustain allowing them to heal virtually untouched unless mDK itself is stacking up damage. But when mDK focuses on damage stacking, it will die sooner or later due to lack of sustain and/or tankiness. Usually damage stacked mDKs tend to die just after dizzying (or whatever spammable they use) -> Dawnbreaker -> Execute. Takes like 2 to 3 seconds. This is why mDKs run s/b most of the times as it is their only real source of mitigation through blocking.

    Even defense focused builds can be bursted in 2-3 seconds in light armor the moment pressure amounts (usually resources are gone through poison and in trying to deal with the pressure). Also, medium armor DoT builds with bleeding that goes through any resistance is very much a killer as well. Cannot heal through that damage pretty much. It is like a defile that makes mDK waste their magicka pool real fast trying to survive. It is not really one sided in mDK's favor.

    Right, except the maximum potential burst you can take in 5/1/1 light armor (no S&B) is 19k, and your Healing Ward (only dmg shield in the game that scales also with spell dmg) outheals/shields entire rotations from your opponent. Not that these builds ever really get to go on offensive (unless they're Xv1'ing, as usual, in which case you shield/fossilize spam until you've got ulti & then kill them all).

    It takes one Fossilize to turn the whole fight around once you've CC break'd their Incap/whatever & Healing Warded.

    I can understand immobile S&B builds having trouble killing (maybe even surviving if there's Defile) medium armor builds if they have Troll King, but not high dmg mDKs.

    It's the most onesided fight in the entire game at the moment, you'd have better chances against mDK as a naked magicka sorcerer.

    Have you never fought an Immovability Troll King Eternal Hunt Dodgeblade?

    Yes, plenty (that's a very popular open world build). They've zero chance of surviving longer than 10-20 seconds thanks to Empowering Chains on my bar & 8m range on Whip, which lets you hit them while you're bypassing mines from the side. I prefer fighting these builds in 1vX, less chance of dying than if I'm being pummeled by multiple high dmg gankers.
    Use a better build on your Nightblade if you seriously have that much trouble against magDKs.

    ...and maybe you should consider a better different build on mDK if you have trouble against medium armor players?
    They are not the counter to medium builds that you seem to think they are, and they certainly can't have BOTH the damage to kill those medium builds AND the bulk to survive their burst, as well as they sustain to spam Healing Ward as you like to advocate.

    Sure you can, I have videos on my channel proving such builds work. I can duel any medium armor person of your choosing to prove that as well (on Live, or on PTS). As it happens, you get both damage and survivability by stacking spell dmg/magicka, since Healing Ward scales with both. And a mDK with Eyes of Mara resto bar can easily sustain spamming Healing Ward.
    Fight some ACTUAL good medium builds and not random pugs you asked to let you smack them with your Flame Lash until they die and call it a "combat test."

    Like whom? Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate? :lol:
    You have posted nothing but negativity and contrarian, edgy word vomit in EVERY magDK thread.

    Cease derailment or cease talking.

    I'm merely getting the facts straight.

    If you have problems vs medium armor builds as a magicka DK, that's entirely a L2P issue, and I'm sure pretty much every good player in this game would agree with that.


    Now shoo, I'm sure you have thread number #13 or #14 to create.
    I almost thought you may have been good until you mentioned using empowering chains. LOL GTFO

    Shots fired.

    Not really, just ignorance & lack of game knowledge broadcasted.


    If slotting an undodgeable "Ambush" that not only gets me Major Empower, but also Major Expedition to keep up with my opponent (on the most immobile class in the game) makes me a bad player, then I guess I must be :smiley:


    I'm starting to understand the amount of QQ here, most people don't/can't theorycraft.
    zParallaxz wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    krathos wrote: »
    "duel me bro" ya except nobody is arguing that DK is bad in duels. We're arguing that the open world toolkit has been continuously watered down and could use some attention as DK was designed to work with several systems/mechanics that are no longer viable. You're even saying that these players who are in roll builds beat you 90% of the time if they just switch builds. So why is so terrible that we continue to discuss the weaknesses of both stamina and magicka DK asking for direction from ZOS regarding their vision for the class?

    Well, I die less often to the heavy armor bleed builds in PTS thanks to the cooldown reduction on Power Lash (those builds generally don't dodge at all), having those PL heals up almost 24/7 helps immensely in mitigating the bleeds, so you don't drop into kill range so easily.

    That's why I think the changes are excellent in this update: better fights vs dodge rollers, better fights vs heavy armor bleed builds, dmg shield builds (e.g. pet sorcs etc) - it's just generally more balanced across the board.


    But yeah, I do realize that's just my build I'm talking about and there's plenty of others.

    So what ZOS should do is buff skills used by other builds, if the changes in this update make dodge rollers too hard to kill for tankier builds with less dmg.

    I think it'd be very simple; just significantly buffing Ash Cloud radius & making the damage ramp up the longer someone stays in it (meaning big, bursty ticks if someone stands in it say, 5 seconds) could make the more stationary tank DK very strong against those melee builds, but that skill still wouldn't be slotted by destro/resto DKs who like to move around & stick to people with Chains.

    That's a win-win situation.


    The worst thing they can do is roll back the changes, because then we're back at square one & I do think the Off Balance/Power Lash changes are overall a buff to mDK, even S&B ones.

    From all the talk dude in starting to think your trolling and just blowing smoke up peoples butts. Let me see a clip of you fighting a decent stamplar wearing a fortified brass build with quick cloak.

    Never lost to one - I don't know what sets they are wearing, but Fortified Brass is never going to be enough burst to get through Healing Ward - I'd be much more scared of something like Ravager+Briar to which I can die if I for some absurd reason don't hold block when POTL goes off to prevent getting combo'd.

    If you can find me a medium stamplar to fight that you won't just call noob & berate when he/she loses, I'm available at all times in EU megaserver. Also on PTS after next patch (CC is too bugged to duel/test things accurately there atm).


    But I think you're referring to this:
    ...around 03:52:00

    See, I cannot die to that - I get low, I Healing Ward, Fossilize and it's over (I have like twice the dmg of the DK in that video, so you can imagine how it goes). I don't hang around at 60% health waiting to get any healing from Coag, I just Healing Ward before I can ever drop low enough to get bursted.

    If a mDK using DW/Frost Staff loses to a medium stamplar that I can understand, that's clearly not a good setup vs stamina builds in general (due to Shuffle/Forward Momentum getting rid of WoE roots), especially stamplar that can drain your magicka like crazy with jabs while you're blocking with the frost staff.

    It sounds to me that many people in general complaining about stam builds don't use resto staff on mDK, which imo is almost a must have if you're to survive Defiles or execute spam, or prevent dropping into burst range altogether.
    Edited by DDuke on February 2, 2018 12:47PM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • Wrubius_Coronaria
    Wrubius_Coronaria
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sharee wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »

    Would you be so kind to elaborate how having undodgeable birbs/whip/embers was desireable from a gamemechanical pov when looking at a fight vs medium armor opponents?

    Just disregard everything else of my post but i´m genuinly curious why people think having undodgeable high dmg singletarget abilities should be a thing i times of stacking dodgecost increase.

    TLDR: the bolded part.

    My opinion. Dodge roll defense is too good, even with the stacking cost (if anyone is dodging less because of it, it certainly isn't very noticeable to me - they all roll dodge all the time anyway). Especially in a fight involving multiple people, where other defenses like shielding and blocking can get overwhelmed, dodge still performs at 100% effectiveness because it does not care how many attackers are attacking you, it dodges it all.

    Thus, having attacks that ignore dodge is desirable to counteract the above.

    Dodgeroll is clearly not "too good", it's even underperforming (slightly) actually on live. (and it's different from major evasion, don't confuse both), but associated with high movement speed + line of sight and clever positioning agaisnt your opponents, it start to be interesting.

    I've tried a build that I made for dodgeroll a lot (impregnable + another set for high stamina regen, with 7 well fitted), and I gave up this build quite fast because too many skills are ignoring dodgeroll and hitting through it. (thankfully the list of these skills will be reduced with Dragon bones, and I hope dodgeroll will be reliable again)

    In my opinion, there is not so many reasons to dodgeroll nowadays. Too many skills require to be blocked or using cloak and line of sight for avoiding them.
    Edited by Wrubius_Coronaria on February 2, 2018 1:04PM
  • CaliMade
    CaliMade
    ✭✭✭✭
    People mention AOEs to stop rollers.

    How bout you spam steall tornado on someone and tell me how fast you kill them.

    How about a harder hitting one,
    Dawnbreaker. Spam Dawn breaker.

    Im tired of these half-a**ed areguments abouy not everything being dodgeable.

    AND PLEASE STOP COMPARING ROLLERS TO PERMA-BLOCKERS.

    They. Are. Not. The. Same.

    You can have high dodging capabilities and still hit hard, no permablocker will hit hard. no permablocker will hit even hard enough to even remotley apply pressure. Please dont bring up a duel either.

    There’s no denying it, 100% mitigation on everything will all ways be stronger than 50-70% mitigation on each individual attack.

    Blocking is no better than dmg shields.
    Good in 1v1 and thats it.

    Shields and blocking get ripped through in OW if you havent found this out yet then you dont play OW enough to realise it.

    XB1 GT- Cali Made


    Praetorian Stam DK Redguard

    Brigadier Stam/magblade (whatever i feel like running) Redguard

    Major Mag DK Dark Elf

    lieutenant Mag/stamplar (whatever i feel like running) Redguard
  • Ragnaroek93
    Ragnaroek93
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.

    With the gapcloser mechanic in ESO I have to disagree with this. Every class should be able to stand a chance against another class.
  • zParallaxz
    zParallaxz
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    zParallaxz wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    It is not one sided to mDK. Medium builds have and can win against mDK just as fine as mDKs can kill glass cannon med builds. Well built medium builds are harder to kill than a heavy build due to sheer amount of damage and sustain allowing them to heal virtually untouched unless mDK itself is stacking up damage. But when mDK focuses on damage stacking, it will die sooner or later due to lack of sustain and/or tankiness. Usually damage stacked mDKs tend to die just after dizzying (or whatever spammable they use) -> Dawnbreaker -> Execute. Takes like 2 to 3 seconds. This is why mDKs run s/b most of the times as it is their only real source of mitigation through blocking.

    Even defense focused builds can be bursted in 2-3 seconds in light armor the moment pressure amounts (usually resources are gone through poison and in trying to deal with the pressure). Also, medium armor DoT builds with bleeding that goes through any resistance is very much a killer as well. Cannot heal through that damage pretty much. It is like a defile that makes mDK waste their magicka pool real fast trying to survive. It is not really one sided in mDK's favor.

    Right, except the maximum potential burst you can take in 5/1/1 light armor (no S&B) is 19k, and your Healing Ward (only dmg shield in the game that scales also with spell dmg) outheals/shields entire rotations from your opponent. Not that these builds ever really get to go on offensive (unless they're Xv1'ing, as usual, in which case you shield/fossilize spam until you've got ulti & then kill them all).

    It takes one Fossilize to turn the whole fight around once you've CC break'd their Incap/whatever & Healing Warded.

    I can understand immobile S&B builds having trouble killing (maybe even surviving if there's Defile) medium armor builds if they have Troll King, but not high dmg mDKs.

    It's the most onesided fight in the entire game at the moment, you'd have better chances against mDK as a naked magicka sorcerer.

    Have you never fought an Immovability Troll King Eternal Hunt Dodgeblade?

    Yes, plenty (that's a very popular open world build). They've zero chance of surviving longer than 10-20 seconds thanks to Empowering Chains on my bar & 8m range on Whip, which lets you hit them while you're bypassing mines from the side. I prefer fighting these builds in 1vX, less chance of dying than if I'm being pummeled by multiple high dmg gankers.
    Use a better build on your Nightblade if you seriously have that much trouble against magDKs.

    ...and maybe you should consider a better different build on mDK if you have trouble against medium armor players?
    They are not the counter to medium builds that you seem to think they are, and they certainly can't have BOTH the damage to kill those medium builds AND the bulk to survive their burst, as well as they sustain to spam Healing Ward as you like to advocate.

    Sure you can, I have videos on my channel proving such builds work. I can duel any medium armor person of your choosing to prove that as well (on Live, or on PTS). As it happens, you get both damage and survivability by stacking spell dmg/magicka, since Healing Ward scales with both. And a mDK with Eyes of Mara resto bar can easily sustain spamming Healing Ward.
    Fight some ACTUAL good medium builds and not random pugs you asked to let you smack them with your Flame Lash until they die and call it a "combat test."

    Like whom? Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate? :lol:
    You have posted nothing but negativity and contrarian, edgy word vomit in EVERY magDK thread.

    Cease derailment or cease talking.

    I'm merely getting the facts straight.

    If you have problems vs medium armor builds as a magicka DK, that's entirely a L2P issue, and I'm sure pretty much every good player in this game would agree with that.


    Now shoo, I'm sure you have thread number #13 or #14 to create.
    I almost thought you may have been good until you mentioned using empowering chains. LOL GTFO

    Shots fired.

    Not really, just ignorance & lack of game knowledge broadcasted.


    If slotting an undodgeable "Ambush" that not only gets me Major Empower, but also Major Expedition to keep up with my opponent (on the most immobile class in the game) makes me a bad player, then I guess I must be :smiley:


    I'm starting to understand the amount of QQ here, most people don't/can't theorycraft.
    zParallaxz wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    krathos wrote: »
    "duel me bro" ya except nobody is arguing that DK is bad in duels. We're arguing that the open world toolkit has been continuously watered down and could use some attention as DK was designed to work with several systems/mechanics that are no longer viable. You're even saying that these players who are in roll builds beat you 90% of the time if they just switch builds. So why is so terrible that we continue to discuss the weaknesses of both stamina and magicka DK asking for direction from ZOS regarding their vision for the class?

    Well, I die less often to the heavy armor bleed builds in PTS thanks to the cooldown reduction on Power Lash (those builds generally don't dodge at all), having those PL heals up almost 24/7 helps immensely in mitigating the bleeds, so you don't drop into kill range so easily.

    That's why I think the changes are excellent in this update: better fights vs dodge rollers, better fights vs heavy armor bleed builds, dmg shield builds (e.g. pet sorcs etc) - it's just generally more balanced across the board.


    But yeah, I do realize that's just my build I'm talking about and there's plenty of others.

    So what ZOS should do is buff skills used by other builds, if the changes in this update make dodge rollers too hard to kill for tankier builds with less dmg.

    I think it'd be very simple; just significantly buffing Ash Cloud radius & making the damage ramp up the longer someone stays in it (meaning big, bursty ticks if someone stands in it say, 5 seconds) could make the more stationary tank DK very strong against those melee builds, but that skill still wouldn't be slotted by destro/resto DKs who like to move around & stick to people with Chains.

    That's a win-win situation.


    The worst thing they can do is roll back the changes, because then we're back at square one & I do think the Off Balance/Power Lash changes are overall a buff to mDK, even S&B ones.

    From all the talk dude in starting to think your trolling and just blowing smoke up peoples butts. Let me see a clip of you fighting a decent stamplar wearing a fortified brass build with quick cloak.

    Never lost to one - I don't know what sets they are wearing, but Fortified Brass is never going to be enough burst to get through Healing Ward - I'd be much more scared of something like Ravager+Briar to which I can die if I for some absurd reason don't hold block when POTL goes off to prevent getting combo'd.

    If you can find me a medium stamplar to fight that you won't just call noob & berate when he/she loses, I'm available at all times in EU megaserver. Also on PTS after next patch (CC is too bugged to duel/test things accurately there atm).


    But I think you're referring to this:
    ...around 03:52:00

    See, I cannot die to that - I get low, I Healing Ward, Fossilize and it's over (I have like twice the dmg of the DK in that video, so you can imagine how it goes). I don't hang around at 60% health waiting to get any healing from Coag, I just Healing Ward before I can ever drop low enough to get bursted.

    If a mDK using DW/Frost Staff loses to a medium stamplar that I can understand, that's clearly not a good setup vs stamina builds in general (due to Shuffle/Forward Momentum getting rid of WoE roots), especially stamplar that can drain your magicka like crazy with jabs while you're blocking with the frost staff.

    It sounds to me that many people in general complaining about stam builds don't use resto staff on mDK, which imo is almost a must have if you're to survive Defiles or execute spam, or prevent dropping into burst range altogether.

    Your link to twitch is broken, so I looked at your you-tube. You have alright stats meaning nothing eye catching, i.e you had 36k max mag, 4200 spell damage, 35% spell crit, and 11k max stam. On a side you made some foolish mistakes, you claim you use chain to also empower leap however, leap and nearly every ultimate in the game except incap cannot be empowered. Also you stack 75 into thaum. to get the exploiter passive, lol the 10% bonus damage from that does not compare when stacking a majority of cp into master at arms, elfborn, and elemental expert. As i know as so do many other magdks know, a stamplar that runs a fortified brass build with quick cloak is more likely to run you out of resources before you can beat them.
  • DDuke
    DDuke
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    CaliMade wrote: »
    People mention AOEs to stop rollers.

    How bout you spam steall tornado on someone and tell me how fast you kill them.

    How about a harder hitting one,
    Dawnbreaker. Spam Dawn breaker.

    Im tired of these half-a**ed areguments abouy not everything being dodgeable.

    AND PLEASE STOP COMPARING ROLLERS TO PERMA-BLOCKERS.

    They. Are. Not. The. Same.

    You can have high dodging capabilities and still hit hard, no permablocker will hit hard. no permablocker will hit even hard enough to even remotley apply pressure. Please dont bring up a duel either.

    There’s no denying it, 100% mitigation on everything will all ways be stronger than 50-70% mitigation on each individual attack.

    Blocking is no better than dmg shields.
    Good in 1v1 and thats it.

    Shields and blocking get ripped through in OW if you havent found this out yet then you dont play OW enough to realise it.

    Dodge roll as it stands is currently (on Live) either too strong (when opponent has close to zero undodgeables) or it's next to useless (when opponent has close to zero dodgeables).

    What they're doing next patch is making it more balanced across the board.

    Builds with zero undodgeables (or close to) will be able to use that DBOS and then Steel Tornado to execute permarollers without them just resetting the fight (also simultaneously counters cloak), and I'm sure some will even use Master 2H Brawler as their spammable now (I will certainly test this) to have an advantage against other dodge rollers.

    Meanwhile, they're making the builds against which dodge roll is practically useless (on Live vs mDK, you can dodge only light attacks, FoO projectiles & Flame Lash that's not combo'd with Fossilize for example) less punishing.
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • zParallaxz
    zParallaxz
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Back on topic, has any one realized that magdk and stamdk is the only class that cant stack mid to high weapon/spell damage, stam/mag recovery, and max stam/mag. Nearly every stambuild for example can make a build that has 2k recov unbuffed, 2.8k weapon damage unbuffed, and 38k+ max stam. An example of a magbuild that is attainable is 40k+ mag, 2k recov unbuffed, and 2.5k spell damage ubuffed. The only class that cant achieve those base unbuffed numbers are dragonknights.
  • DDuke
    DDuke
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    zParallaxz wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    zParallaxz wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    It is not one sided to mDK. Medium builds have and can win against mDK just as fine as mDKs can kill glass cannon med builds. Well built medium builds are harder to kill than a heavy build due to sheer amount of damage and sustain allowing them to heal virtually untouched unless mDK itself is stacking up damage. But when mDK focuses on damage stacking, it will die sooner or later due to lack of sustain and/or tankiness. Usually damage stacked mDKs tend to die just after dizzying (or whatever spammable they use) -> Dawnbreaker -> Execute. Takes like 2 to 3 seconds. This is why mDKs run s/b most of the times as it is their only real source of mitigation through blocking.

    Even defense focused builds can be bursted in 2-3 seconds in light armor the moment pressure amounts (usually resources are gone through poison and in trying to deal with the pressure). Also, medium armor DoT builds with bleeding that goes through any resistance is very much a killer as well. Cannot heal through that damage pretty much. It is like a defile that makes mDK waste their magicka pool real fast trying to survive. It is not really one sided in mDK's favor.

    Right, except the maximum potential burst you can take in 5/1/1 light armor (no S&B) is 19k, and your Healing Ward (only dmg shield in the game that scales also with spell dmg) outheals/shields entire rotations from your opponent. Not that these builds ever really get to go on offensive (unless they're Xv1'ing, as usual, in which case you shield/fossilize spam until you've got ulti & then kill them all).

    It takes one Fossilize to turn the whole fight around once you've CC break'd their Incap/whatever & Healing Warded.

    I can understand immobile S&B builds having trouble killing (maybe even surviving if there's Defile) medium armor builds if they have Troll King, but not high dmg mDKs.

    It's the most onesided fight in the entire game at the moment, you'd have better chances against mDK as a naked magicka sorcerer.

    Have you never fought an Immovability Troll King Eternal Hunt Dodgeblade?

    Yes, plenty (that's a very popular open world build). They've zero chance of surviving longer than 10-20 seconds thanks to Empowering Chains on my bar & 8m range on Whip, which lets you hit them while you're bypassing mines from the side. I prefer fighting these builds in 1vX, less chance of dying than if I'm being pummeled by multiple high dmg gankers.
    Use a better build on your Nightblade if you seriously have that much trouble against magDKs.

    ...and maybe you should consider a better different build on mDK if you have trouble against medium armor players?
    They are not the counter to medium builds that you seem to think they are, and they certainly can't have BOTH the damage to kill those medium builds AND the bulk to survive their burst, as well as they sustain to spam Healing Ward as you like to advocate.

    Sure you can, I have videos on my channel proving such builds work. I can duel any medium armor person of your choosing to prove that as well (on Live, or on PTS). As it happens, you get both damage and survivability by stacking spell dmg/magicka, since Healing Ward scales with both. And a mDK with Eyes of Mara resto bar can easily sustain spamming Healing Ward.
    Fight some ACTUAL good medium builds and not random pugs you asked to let you smack them with your Flame Lash until they die and call it a "combat test."

    Like whom? Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate? :lol:
    You have posted nothing but negativity and contrarian, edgy word vomit in EVERY magDK thread.

    Cease derailment or cease talking.

    I'm merely getting the facts straight.

    If you have problems vs medium armor builds as a magicka DK, that's entirely a L2P issue, and I'm sure pretty much every good player in this game would agree with that.


    Now shoo, I'm sure you have thread number #13 or #14 to create.
    I almost thought you may have been good until you mentioned using empowering chains. LOL GTFO

    Shots fired.

    Not really, just ignorance & lack of game knowledge broadcasted.


    If slotting an undodgeable "Ambush" that not only gets me Major Empower, but also Major Expedition to keep up with my opponent (on the most immobile class in the game) makes me a bad player, then I guess I must be :smiley:


    I'm starting to understand the amount of QQ here, most people don't/can't theorycraft.
    zParallaxz wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    krathos wrote: »
    "duel me bro" ya except nobody is arguing that DK is bad in duels. We're arguing that the open world toolkit has been continuously watered down and could use some attention as DK was designed to work with several systems/mechanics that are no longer viable. You're even saying that these players who are in roll builds beat you 90% of the time if they just switch builds. So why is so terrible that we continue to discuss the weaknesses of both stamina and magicka DK asking for direction from ZOS regarding their vision for the class?

    Well, I die less often to the heavy armor bleed builds in PTS thanks to the cooldown reduction on Power Lash (those builds generally don't dodge at all), having those PL heals up almost 24/7 helps immensely in mitigating the bleeds, so you don't drop into kill range so easily.

    That's why I think the changes are excellent in this update: better fights vs dodge rollers, better fights vs heavy armor bleed builds, dmg shield builds (e.g. pet sorcs etc) - it's just generally more balanced across the board.


    But yeah, I do realize that's just my build I'm talking about and there's plenty of others.

    So what ZOS should do is buff skills used by other builds, if the changes in this update make dodge rollers too hard to kill for tankier builds with less dmg.

    I think it'd be very simple; just significantly buffing Ash Cloud radius & making the damage ramp up the longer someone stays in it (meaning big, bursty ticks if someone stands in it say, 5 seconds) could make the more stationary tank DK very strong against those melee builds, but that skill still wouldn't be slotted by destro/resto DKs who like to move around & stick to people with Chains.

    That's a win-win situation.


    The worst thing they can do is roll back the changes, because then we're back at square one & I do think the Off Balance/Power Lash changes are overall a buff to mDK, even S&B ones.

    From all the talk dude in starting to think your trolling and just blowing smoke up peoples butts. Let me see a clip of you fighting a decent stamplar wearing a fortified brass build with quick cloak.

    Never lost to one - I don't know what sets they are wearing, but Fortified Brass is never going to be enough burst to get through Healing Ward - I'd be much more scared of something like Ravager+Briar to which I can die if I for some absurd reason don't hold block when POTL goes off to prevent getting combo'd.

    If you can find me a medium stamplar to fight that you won't just call noob & berate when he/she loses, I'm available at all times in EU megaserver. Also on PTS after next patch (CC is too bugged to duel/test things accurately there atm).


    But I think you're referring to this:
    ...around 03:52:00

    See, I cannot die to that - I get low, I Healing Ward, Fossilize and it's over (I have like twice the dmg of the DK in that video, so you can imagine how it goes). I don't hang around at 60% health waiting to get any healing from Coag, I just Healing Ward before I can ever drop low enough to get bursted.

    If a mDK using DW/Frost Staff loses to a medium stamplar that I can understand, that's clearly not a good setup vs stamina builds in general (due to Shuffle/Forward Momentum getting rid of WoE roots), especially stamplar that can drain your magicka like crazy with jabs while you're blocking with the frost staff.

    It sounds to me that many people in general complaining about stam builds don't use resto staff on mDK, which imo is almost a must have if you're to survive Defiles or execute spam, or prevent dropping into burst range altogether.

    Your link to twitch is broken, so I looked at your you-tube. You have alright stats meaning nothing eye catching, i.e you had 36k max mag, 4200 spell damage, 35% spell crit, and 11k max stam. On a side you made some foolish mistakes, you claim you use chain to also empower leap however, leap and nearly every ultimate in the game except incap cannot be empowered. Also you stack 75 into thaum. to get the exploiter passive, lol the 10% bonus damage from that does not compare when stacking a majority of cp into master at arms, elfborn, and elemental expert. As i know as so do many other magdks know, a stamplar that runs a fortified brass build with quick cloak is more likely to run you out of resources before you can beat them.

    Oh, that twitch link was to the latest Legend tournament where the stamplar won & I was referring to that last fight where a mDK was fighting with DW/Frost Staff build.


    Leap (like most ultimates in the game) can also be Empowered, I'm 100% sure of that because I've tested it multiple times.

    As for the Champion Points...

    The math behind that is that if you'd drop thaumaturge to let's say 28 (you still have plenty of DoTs), you'd lose 11% DoT dmg, 10% dmg on almost every burst combo while you'd gain 2% direct dmg 3% dmg, 5% crit dmg & 148 pen.

    So in other words, you'd passively deal 8% less dmg with your non-crit DoTs (3% less with crits) & just less dmg during burst in general (during which DoT ticks will also gain the benefit of Exploiter passive), while your normal whips would deal more damage.

    If you're looking to really burst people down, that's not optimal. Next patch it won't even be optimal for non-burst oriented builds since Off Balance won't be consumed.
    Edited by DDuke on February 2, 2018 1:48PM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.

    Then why are we on the PTS?
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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  • krathos
    krathos
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    Feanor wrote: »
    krathos wrote: »
    "duel me bro" ya except nobody is arguing that DK is bad in duels. We're arguing that the open world toolkit has been continuously watered down and could use some attention as DK was designed to work with several systems/mechanics that are no longer viable. You're even saying that these players who are in roll builds beat you 90% of the time if they just switch builds. So why is so terrible that we continue to discuss the weaknesses of both stamina and magicka DK asking for direction from ZOS regarding their vision for the class?

    So not being able to 1vX top players is a DK issue now?

    Where in any of this did I say that? Like holy *** dude. Open world doesn’t even mean strictly 1vX and where the *** did I say anything about 1vXing good players. Stop reading for your own bias.
    Edited by krathos on February 2, 2018 2:12PM
    Flapjack Palmdale
    <ANIMOSITY>

    Grand Overlord - Magicka Dragonknight
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    I strongly suggest reversing the removal of dodgability on power lash only. As it is the "defacto execute" of the DK class, being similar in function to beam and fury in its reliable hard finishing hit. Unlike embers or bird it isn't spammable without ability to dodge, and unlike executes like assassins+morphs or 2h exe, it requires a set up combo to finish.

    It has many counters already; Range being a large one for DK as a whole, but more active ones such as shuffle or FM denying the use of roots in the first place, immo pots/immunity stopping hard CC and even if both of those can go through, if you can break free fast enough, roll, or mist, then you can either ignore the offbalance from normal lash, or normal lash itself, meaning that powerlash cannot proc on target. Adding another counter after both others have been setup causes a large waste of resources into a 3s cooldown.
    As balance, it could instead go back to 5s, or consuming offbalance even if it doesn't stun.

    Embers should be kept as is (dodgable) though, maybe a possiblity of increasing the range to 8m for QoL. Its hard to use against mobile/far targets, for example in HOF platforms it is very hard to use without falling off, and due to having to move from the AOE it is a high DPS loss.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    I strongly suggest reversing the removal of dodgability on power lash only. As it is the "defacto execute" of the DK class, being similar in function to beam and fury in its reliable hard finishing hit. Unlike embers or bird it isn't spammable without ability to dodge, and unlike executes like assassins+morphs or 2h exe, it requires a set up combo to finish.

    It has many counters already; Range being a large one for DK as a whole, but more active ones such as shuffle or FM denying the use of roots in the first place, immo pots/immunity stopping hard CC and even if both of those can go through, if you can break free fast enough, roll, or mist, then you can either ignore the offbalance from normal lash, or normal lash itself, meaning that powerlash cannot proc on target. Adding another counter after both others have been setup causes a large waste of resources into a 3s cooldown.
    As balance, it could instead go back to 5s, or consuming offbalance even if it doesn't stun.

    Embers should be kept as is (dodgable) though, maybe a possiblity of increasing the range to 8m for QoL. Its hard to use against mobile/far targets, for example in HOF platforms it is very hard to use without falling off, and due to having to move from the AOE it is a high DPS loss.

    "defacto execute" that deals the same damage whether target is 100% or 0% health... hmm. I guess you wouldn't mind then if Power Lash only dealt big damage when target actually is in execute range and only hit for 2-3k when not?

    And you probably wouldn't mind either if ZOS made Rev Slice undodgeable too - you know, to balance the executes across the board.


    I'm sorry, but that's just ***.

    If you are having trouble with people using "ranged" as some sort of a magical counter on your mDK which clearly doesn't have Chains slotted (or else you wouldn't be making those claims), then suggest something that would help your mDK & builds like yours perform better in PvP, rather than across the board changes that affect mDK builds that already stomp dodge rollers and ruin their gameplay experience.

    What you're suggesting would also nerf mDKs back to their current levels against dmg shield & heavy armor builds, which currently dominate everything (including mDKs) in 1v1.


    So how can they buff builds like yours without having builds like mine become unbalanced against dodge rollers? That's easy: just buff the stationary, more "tanking/hold your ground" oriented skills like Ash Cloud that would never be slotted by someone who can and will chase after targets.
    Edited by DDuke on February 2, 2018 2:42PM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    DDuke wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    I strongly suggest reversing the removal of dodgability on power lash only. As it is the "defacto execute" of the DK class, being similar in function to beam and fury in its reliable hard finishing hit. Unlike embers or bird it isn't spammable without ability to dodge, and unlike executes like assassins+morphs or 2h exe, it requires a set up combo to finish.

    It has many counters already; Range being a large one for DK as a whole, but more active ones such as shuffle or FM denying the use of roots in the first place, immo pots/immunity stopping hard CC and even if both of those can go through, if you can break free fast enough, roll, or mist, then you can either ignore the offbalance from normal lash, or normal lash itself, meaning that powerlash cannot proc on target. Adding another counter after both others have been setup causes a large waste of resources into a 3s cooldown.
    As balance, it could instead go back to 5s, or consuming offbalance even if it doesn't stun.

    Embers should be kept as is (dodgable) though, maybe a possiblity of increasing the range to 8m for QoL. Its hard to use against mobile/far targets, for example in HOF platforms it is very hard to use without falling off, and due to having to move from the AOE it is a high DPS loss.

    "defacto execute" that deals the same damage whether target is 100% or 0% health... hmm. I guess you wouldn't mind then if Power Lash only dealt big damage when target actually is in execute range and only hit for 2-3k when not?

    And you probably wouldn't mind either if ZOS made Rev Slice undodgeable too - you know, to balance the executes across the board.


    I'm sorry, but that's just ***.

    If you are having trouble with people using "ranged" as some sort of a magical counter on your mDK which clearly doesn't have Chains slotted (or else you wouldn't be making those claims), then suggest something that would help your mDK & builds like yours perform better in PvP, rather than across the board changes that affect mDK builds that already stomp dodge rollers.

    What you're suggesting would also nerf mDKs back to their current levels against dmg shield & heavy armor builds, which currently dominate everything (including mDKs) in 1v1.

    AHEM...
    "Being similar in function to beam and fury in its reliable hard finishing hit. Unlike embers or bird it isn't spammable without ability to dodge, and unlike executes like assassins+morphs or 2h exe, it requires a set up combo to finish."
    As I said in the patch notes thread to someone stating the same. Sure. Make reverse slice undodgable, but make it have to use a CC and weaker version before each use. Deal?

    Powerlash is one of the main finishers on a DK, as it deals a comparable amount of damage as an execute does, (reverse spams being around 5k at lower health) and is done when an enemy can be locked down more, often at lower resources/health, because otherwise it can be countered.

    As said,when you get talonsed and aren't running FM before, purge, streak, dodge, hell even cloak so they will have to AoE. You can fossilize on live for a higher chance of hitting, unless ofc running FM, then a break instantly stops proc. But on PTS its resources down the drain. If a dodge build cannot deal with the two VERY counterable set up moves before it, then they have more issues than PL.

    Ranged counters being, streak away, use mines/pets, Move out of talons radius a little bit, (VERY easy as a fast build,) I doubt you will chain every time someone moves out of your talons/petrify range. Chains doesn't bring you on top of your target, keep them in place, and give you a handy whilst doing so. Its not a be all end all to range counters.

    What you're suggesting would also nerf mDKs back to their current levels against dmg shield & heavy armor builds, which currently dominate everything (including mDKs) in 1v1. Not really, heavy armour builds can be pressured really easily with a DK build, unless they run busted troll king. Similar with shield builds, unless running full stack with riposte etc. And having lash 2s sooner doesn't change the fact that they can dodge too, often having to build like that to deal with roots. Effectively making it a moot point.
    Edited by ak_pvp on February 2, 2018 2:55PM
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    I strongly suggest reversing the removal of dodgability on power lash only. As it is the "defacto execute" of the DK class, being similar in function to beam and fury in its reliable hard finishing hit. Unlike embers or bird it isn't spammable without ability to dodge, and unlike executes like assassins+morphs or 2h exe, it requires a set up combo to finish.

    It has many counters already; Range being a large one for DK as a whole, but more active ones such as shuffle or FM denying the use of roots in the first place, immo pots/immunity stopping hard CC and even if both of those can go through, if you can break free fast enough, roll, or mist, then you can either ignore the offbalance from normal lash, or normal lash itself, meaning that powerlash cannot proc on target. Adding another counter after both others have been setup causes a large waste of resources into a 3s cooldown.
    As balance, it could instead go back to 5s, or consuming offbalance even if it doesn't stun.

    Embers should be kept as is (dodgable) though, maybe a possiblity of increasing the range to 8m for QoL. Its hard to use against mobile/far targets, for example in HOF platforms it is very hard to use without falling off, and due to having to move from the AOE it is a high DPS loss.

    "defacto execute" that deals the same damage whether target is 100% or 0% health... hmm. I guess you wouldn't mind then if Power Lash only dealt big damage when target actually is in execute range and only hit for 2-3k when not?

    And you probably wouldn't mind either if ZOS made Rev Slice undodgeable too - you know, to balance the executes across the board.


    I'm sorry, but that's just ***.

    If you are having trouble with people using "ranged" as some sort of a magical counter on your mDK which clearly doesn't have Chains slotted (or else you wouldn't be making those claims), then suggest something that would help your mDK & builds like yours perform better in PvP, rather than across the board changes that affect mDK builds that already stomp dodge rollers.

    What you're suggesting would also nerf mDKs back to their current levels against dmg shield & heavy armor builds, which currently dominate everything (including mDKs) in 1v1.

    AHEM...
    "Being similar in function to beam and fury in its reliable hard finishing hit. Unlike embers or bird it isn't spammable without ability to dodge, and unlike executes like assassins+morphs or 2h exe, it requires a set up combo to finish."
    As I said in the patch notes thread to someone stating the same. Sure. Make reverse slice undodgable, but make it have to use a CC and weaker version before each use. Deal?

    "A set up combo" is that what we call using CC or roots in PvP? That's not a combo, that's just playing PvP. If you're not CC'ing (and rooting with Fossilize) every 7 seconds, you're doing it wrong.

    Also, Reverse Slice is already combo'd with CC (DBOS, Incap etc) - what makes it balanced is that you have the option to avoid damage if you are a good player & CC break+dodge roll (or shield up if magicka build) before you die.

    ...and I don't know about "weaker version", I have 12k tooltip on my Flame Lash - that's more than any rollerblade's (100% gank builds do get around 13,5k tooltip) Surprise Attack for comparison.

    So maybe they should nerf Flame Lash damage by around 50% to make your suggestion balanced with other executes? Or give Rev Slice 12k tooltip so no one needs to slot a real spammable anymore. I hope you realize how ridiculous that sounds.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Powerlash is one of the main finishers on a DK, as it deals a comparable amount of damage as an execute does, (reverse spams being around 5k at lower health) and is done when an enemy can be locked down more, often at lower resources/health, because otherwise it can be countered.

    Highlighted the key part. It's one of the skills you can use to finish off a target (and still is on PTS, especially against builds that don't spam dodge roll).

    You can also use Leap to finish off people, or just alter your rotation.

    E.g.
    Talons->FL (proc PL)->Fossilize->PL (guaranteed to land now)
    or
    Fossilize->FL->Leap(hits target mid roll)->PL(either lands or forces now low health opponent to dodge roll again, in which case DoTs and/or Skoria proc will finish the job & your opponent's stam pool is massively drained).
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    As said,when you get talonsed and aren't running FM before, purge, streak, dodge, hell even cloak so they will have to AoE. You can fossilize on live for a higher chance of hitting, unless ofc running FM, then a break instantly stops proc. But on PTS its resources down the drain. If a dodge build cannot deal with the two VERY counterable set up moves before it, then they have more issues than PL.

    I don't run Talons, but with Fossilize there's pretty much zero chance someone can CC break before you land Flame Lash, as Flame Lash has a very short travel time.

    You play on EU according to your signature, why don't you pm @DDuke in game and show me how you survive a high dmg mDK as a dodge roller :smiley:
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Ranged counters being, streak away, use mines/pets, Move out of talons radius a little bit, (VERY easy as a fast build,) I doubt you will chain every time someone moves out of your talons/petrify range. Chains doesn't bring you on top of your target, keep them in place, and give you a handy whilst doing so. Its not a be all end all to range counters.

    Yes I will, I'm almost spamming that skill. Every time someone is out of Lash range, Chains. They streak, I chain. They drop mines, I chain (unless a curse is about to go off at the same second) & Fossilize. Repeat ad nauseum.

    Chains also snare the target with the Warmth passive btw & give you the Major Expedition, it's nigh impossible to escape someone using that skill properly.

    A magblade can drop Shadow Image, spam shields until at 28m range & then port to Image and cloak. Chains being 22m range, that's how you escape on magblade.
    On stamblade, the problem is that no one lives that long to create distance to Shadow Image, due to all the undodgeable dmg.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    DDuke wrote:
    What you're suggesting would also nerf mDKs back to their current levels against dmg shield & heavy armor builds, which currently dominate everything (including mDKs) in 1v1.
    Not really, heavy armour builds can be pressured really easily with a DK build, unless they run busted troll king. Similar with shield builds, unless running full stack with riposte etc. And having lash 2s sooner doesn't change the fact that they can dodge too, often having to build like that to deal with roots. Effectively making it a moot point.

    Of course they run Troll King, to not run Troll King on any stamina build is a mistake. I can beat players running Blood Spawn on my mDK, but TK+Heavy Armor is too much to deal with on Live. On PTS I've managed to beat these builds sometimes, largely thanks to being able to PL more often.

    Shield builds I agree, mDK does pretty well against unless we're talking about pet sorc.

    I can actually see them complaining about mDK being op next update, since you can now pressure their shields so much harder with 2x PL every Fossilize rather than one.

    If they try (again, not guaranteed if you vary up your rotations) to dodge those, they will run out of stamina and when they do it's RIP to CC.

    No magicka build can sustain dodging literally every 3s (remember, Chains slotted means you're in melee range 24/7) and if they build for lots of dodging it means sets like Amber, which means smaller shields & easier to get pressured down.
    Edited by DDuke on February 2, 2018 3:57PM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • BroanBeast1215
    BroanBeast1215
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    CaliMade wrote: »
    People mention AOEs to stop rollers.

    How bout you spam steall tornado on someone and tell me how fast you kill them.

    How about a harder hitting one,
    Dawnbreaker. Spam Dawn breaker.

    Im tired of these half-a**ed areguments abouy not everything being dodgeable.

    AND PLEASE STOP COMPARING ROLLERS TO PERMA-BLOCKERS.

    They. Are. Not. The. Same.

    You can have high dodging capabilities and still hit hard, no permablocker will hit hard. no permablocker will hit even hard enough to even remotley apply pressure. Please dont bring up a duel either.

    There’s no denying it, 100% mitigation on everything will all ways be stronger than 50-70% mitigation on each individual attack.

    Blocking is no better than dmg shields.
    Good in 1v1 and thats it.

    Shields and blocking get ripped through in OW if you havent found this out yet then you dont play OW enough to realise it.

    lol just because you don't know how to build for high damage and ability to block most incoming damage doesn't mean other DKs don't know how to :lol: there are DKs that can build for sustained pressure(RIP vampires) and massive burst via take flight. the DK I duo with has such a build and can nearly permablock but still has burst that rivals my stamplar


    fyi when most people say permablocker they don't necessarily mean builds for no damage and only to hold down the block button a bit confusing tbh...
    Edited by BroanBeast1215 on February 2, 2018 5:13PM
  • IZZEFlameLash
    IZZEFlameLash
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    Yeah... seventh legion or fury on top of defensive set is not something DK exclusive. Permablocks do not have enough damage to make an effective dent other than 0 impen light attack spamming builds.
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • Ragnaroek93
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    How many people actually tested mag Dk on PTS? Power Lash has less cooldown than on live (3 seconds instead of 5) and a healing tooltip close to Earthgore but somehow mag Dks feel nerfed and complain about Lash being dodgeable (yeah, a 29k heal and 15k damage ability which is almost spammable definitely needs to be undodgeable as well).

    It doesn't matter how much ZOS will buff mag Dk, it won't be enough to satisfy the mag Dk community unless they can play their "stand your ground" gameplay again which means playing a permablocking walking batswarm who is wiping zergs (without using a gapcloser of course).
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