FloppyTouch wrote: »Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.
FloppyTouch wrote: »Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.
Dueling/1v1 should have as much place in a discussion as battleground builds and cyrodiil pvp. All of them are from ZOS aknowledged forms of pvp by now.
Otherwise you can dismiss most arguments to balance with the argument of more people balancing things out or making microbalancing irrelevant.
FloppyTouch wrote: »FloppyTouch wrote: »Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.
Dueling/1v1 should have as much place in a discussion as battleground builds and cyrodiil pvp. All of them are from ZOS aknowledged forms of pvp by now.
Otherwise you can dismiss most arguments to balance with the argument of more people balancing things out or making microbalancing irrelevant.
I disagree a class preforming well is duels should not be the benchmark for nerfs. Duels are a fun activity to do with friends or to learn ur burst rotation. Having duels be a part of the discussion only leads to unnecessary nerfs and effects a class further in group play.
PvP even battlegrounds is mainly group play not 1v1. I love dueling but would never consider it a way on how a class is OP or underperforming.
To add to this some classes like nb are a stealth class made for catching people off guard and ganking them. They don’t do so well in a duel bc ur taking away some of the strongest aspects of the class. Duels also remove some of the items and tactics used in open world like immovable pots and LoS. Duels also use builds that most would not use in a group play environment like full burst build with little recovery or sets that might be great 1v1 but are terrible in open world.
We have many forms of pvp but the main is group play open world pvp and that’s what classes should be balance around.
FloppyTouch wrote: »FloppyTouch wrote: »Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.
Dueling/1v1 should have as much place in a discussion as battleground builds and cyrodiil pvp. All of them are from ZOS aknowledged forms of pvp by now.
Otherwise you can dismiss most arguments to balance with the argument of more people balancing things out or making microbalancing irrelevant.
I disagree a class preforming well is duels should not be the benchmark for nerfs. Duels are a fun activity to do with friends or to learn ur burst rotation. Having duels be a part of the discussion only leads to unnecessary nerfs and effects a class further in group play.
PvP even battlegrounds is mainly group play not 1v1. I love dueling but would never consider it a way on how a class is OP or underperforming.
To add to this some classes like nb are a stealth class made for catching people off guard and ganking them. They don’t do so well in a duel bc ur taking away some of the strongest aspects of the class. Duels also remove some of the items and tactics used in open world like immovable pots and LoS. Duels also use builds that most would not use in a group play environment like full burst build with little recovery or sets that might be great 1v1 but are terrible in open world.
We have many forms of pvp but the main is group play open world pvp and that’s what classes should be balance around.
Well i disagree completely - bc quite frankly said if someone is somewhat adapt in build and theorycrafting nothing keeps them from putting the mechanics that overperform in duels into smallgrp play practice.
Sometimes that even makes matters worse (sometimes not - my personal feeling is that problematic defense is less problematic in grps while problematic offense is even more so in a grp setting).
Having undodgeable whip, embers, birbs, nb finisher and whatnot was simply bad for anything ranging up to 6ppl grps - at that point it gets arguably irrelevant.
Mind you i don´t think the game should be balanced around duels nor should classes power solely assessed based on duels. But neither do i think 1v1 performance should be completely ignored.
In that regard I just think dueling gives a very strong insight on mechanics that overperform in these 1v1 scenarios - that happen a lot in everyday cyrodiil.
Also can´t agree on your assessment of the NB class. It´s an option to catch people off guard and gank. The class does fine in duels though and is definetly on one of the top classes for stam and magica - with the exception of medium stamblade confronted with a build that has a lot of undodgeable nonsense in it.
FloppyTouch wrote: »FloppyTouch wrote: »FloppyTouch wrote: »Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.
Dueling/1v1 should have as much place in a discussion as battleground builds and cyrodiil pvp. All of them are from ZOS aknowledged forms of pvp by now.
Otherwise you can dismiss most arguments to balance with the argument of more people balancing things out or making microbalancing irrelevant.
I disagree a class preforming well is duels should not be the benchmark for nerfs. Duels are a fun activity to do with friends or to learn ur burst rotation. Having duels be a part of the discussion only leads to unnecessary nerfs and effects a class further in group play.
PvP even battlegrounds is mainly group play not 1v1. I love dueling but would never consider it a way on how a class is OP or underperforming.
To add to this some classes like nb are a stealth class made for catching people off guard and ganking them. They don’t do so well in a duel bc ur taking away some of the strongest aspects of the class. Duels also remove some of the items and tactics used in open world like immovable pots and LoS. Duels also use builds that most would not use in a group play environment like full burst build with little recovery or sets that might be great 1v1 but are terrible in open world.
We have many forms of pvp but the main is group play open world pvp and that’s what classes should be balance around.
Well i disagree completely - bc quite frankly said if someone is somewhat adapt in build and theorycrafting nothing keeps them from putting the mechanics that overperform in duels into smallgrp play practice.
Sometimes that even makes matters worse (sometimes not - my personal feeling is that problematic defense is less problematic in grps while problematic offense is even more so in a grp setting).
Having undodgeable whip, embers, birbs, nb finisher and whatnot was simply bad for anything ranging up to 6ppl grps - at that point it gets arguably irrelevant.
Mind you i don´t think the game should be balanced around duels nor should classes power solely assessed based on duels. But neither do i think 1v1 performance should be completely ignored.
In that regard I just think dueling gives a very strong insight on mechanics that overperform in these 1v1 scenarios - that happen a lot in everyday cyrodiil.
Also can´t agree on your assessment of the NB class. It´s an option to catch people off guard and gank. The class does fine in duels though and is definetly on one of the top classes for stam and magica - with the exception of medium stamblade confronted with a build that has a lot of undodgeable nonsense in it.
We are going to have to agree to disagree then
Would you be so kind to elaborate how having undodgeable birbs/whip/embers was desireable from a gamemechanical pov when looking at a fight vs medium armor opponents?
Just disregard everything else of my post but i´m genuinly curious why people think having undodgeable high dmg singletarget abilities should be a thing i times of stacking dodgecost increase.
FlamingBeard wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »It is not one sided to mDK. Medium builds have and can win against mDK just as fine as mDKs can kill glass cannon med builds. Well built medium builds are harder to kill than a heavy build due to sheer amount of damage and sustain allowing them to heal virtually untouched unless mDK itself is stacking up damage. But when mDK focuses on damage stacking, it will die sooner or later due to lack of sustain and/or tankiness. Usually damage stacked mDKs tend to die just after dizzying (or whatever spammable they use) -> Dawnbreaker -> Execute. Takes like 2 to 3 seconds. This is why mDKs run s/b most of the times as it is their only real source of mitigation through blocking.
Even defense focused builds can be bursted in 2-3 seconds in light armor the moment pressure amounts (usually resources are gone through poison and in trying to deal with the pressure). Also, medium armor DoT builds with bleeding that goes through any resistance is very much a killer as well. Cannot heal through that damage pretty much. It is like a defile that makes mDK waste their magicka pool real fast trying to survive. It is not really one sided in mDK's favor.
Right, except the maximum potential burst you can take in 5/1/1 light armor (no S&B) is 19k, and your Healing Ward (only dmg shield in the game that scales also with spell dmg) outheals/shields entire rotations from your opponent. Not that these builds ever really get to go on offensive (unless they're Xv1'ing, as usual, in which case you shield/fossilize spam until you've got ulti & then kill them all).
It takes one Fossilize to turn the whole fight around once you've CC break'd their Incap/whatever & Healing Warded.
I can understand immobile S&B builds having trouble killing (maybe even surviving if there's Defile) medium armor builds if they have Troll King, but not high dmg mDKs.
It's the most onesided fight in the entire game at the moment, you'd have better chances against mDK as a naked magicka sorcerer.
Have you never fought an Immovability Troll King Eternal Hunt Dodgeblade?
Use a better build on your Nightblade if you seriously have that much trouble against magDKs.
They are not the counter to medium builds that you seem to think they are, and they certainly can't have BOTH the damage to kill those medium builds AND the bulk to survive their burst, as well as they sustain to spam Healing Ward as you like to advocate.
Fight some ACTUAL good medium builds and not random pugs you asked to let you smack them with your Flame Lash until they die and call it a "combat test."
You have posted nothing but negativity and contrarian, edgy word vomit in EVERY magDK thread.
Cease derailment or cease talking.
I almost thought you may have been good until you mentioned using empowering chains. LOL GTFOFlamingBeard wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »It is not one sided to mDK. Medium builds have and can win against mDK just as fine as mDKs can kill glass cannon med builds. Well built medium builds are harder to kill than a heavy build due to sheer amount of damage and sustain allowing them to heal virtually untouched unless mDK itself is stacking up damage. But when mDK focuses on damage stacking, it will die sooner or later due to lack of sustain and/or tankiness. Usually damage stacked mDKs tend to die just after dizzying (or whatever spammable they use) -> Dawnbreaker -> Execute. Takes like 2 to 3 seconds. This is why mDKs run s/b most of the times as it is their only real source of mitigation through blocking.
Even defense focused builds can be bursted in 2-3 seconds in light armor the moment pressure amounts (usually resources are gone through poison and in trying to deal with the pressure). Also, medium armor DoT builds with bleeding that goes through any resistance is very much a killer as well. Cannot heal through that damage pretty much. It is like a defile that makes mDK waste their magicka pool real fast trying to survive. It is not really one sided in mDK's favor.
Right, except the maximum potential burst you can take in 5/1/1 light armor (no S&B) is 19k, and your Healing Ward (only dmg shield in the game that scales also with spell dmg) outheals/shields entire rotations from your opponent. Not that these builds ever really get to go on offensive (unless they're Xv1'ing, as usual, in which case you shield/fossilize spam until you've got ulti & then kill them all).
It takes one Fossilize to turn the whole fight around once you've CC break'd their Incap/whatever & Healing Warded.
I can understand immobile S&B builds having trouble killing (maybe even surviving if there's Defile) medium armor builds if they have Troll King, but not high dmg mDKs.
It's the most onesided fight in the entire game at the moment, you'd have better chances against mDK as a naked magicka sorcerer.
Have you never fought an Immovability Troll King Eternal Hunt Dodgeblade?
Yes, plenty (that's a very popular open world build). They've zero chance of surviving longer than 10-20 seconds thanks to Empowering Chains on my bar & 8m range on Whip, which lets you hit them while you're bypassing mines from the side. I prefer fighting these builds in 1vX, less chance of dying than if I'm being pummeled by multiple high dmg gankers.FlamingBeard wrote: »Use a better build on your Nightblade if you seriously have that much trouble against magDKs.
...and maybe you should consider a better different build on mDK if you have trouble against medium armor players?FlamingBeard wrote: »They are not the counter to medium builds that you seem to think they are, and they certainly can't have BOTH the damage to kill those medium builds AND the bulk to survive their burst, as well as they sustain to spam Healing Ward as you like to advocate.
Sure you can, I have videos on my channel proving such builds work. I can duel any medium armor person of your choosing to prove that as well (on Live, or on PTS). As it happens, you get both damage and survivability by stacking spell dmg/magicka, since Healing Ward scales with both. And a mDK with Eyes of Mara resto bar can easily sustain spamming Healing Ward.FlamingBeard wrote: »Fight some ACTUAL good medium builds and not random pugs you asked to let you smack them with your Flame Lash until they die and call it a "combat test."
Like whom? Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate?FlamingBeard wrote: »You have posted nothing but negativity and contrarian, edgy word vomit in EVERY magDK thread.
Cease derailment or cease talking.
I'm merely getting the facts straight.
If you have problems vs medium armor builds as a magicka DK, that's entirely a L2P issue, and I'm sure pretty much every good player in this game would agree with that.
Now shoo, I'm sure you have thread number #13 or #14 to create.
"duel me bro" ya except nobody is arguing that DK is bad in duels. We're arguing that the open world toolkit has been continuously watered down and could use some attention as DK was designed to work with several systems/mechanics that are no longer viable. You're even saying that these players who are in roll builds beat you 90% of the time if they just switch builds. So why is so terrible that we continue to discuss the weaknesses of both stamina and magicka DK asking for direction from ZOS regarding their vision for the class?
Well, I die less often to the heavy armor bleed builds in PTS thanks to the cooldown reduction on Power Lash (those builds generally don't dodge at all), having those PL heals up almost 24/7 helps immensely in mitigating the bleeds, so you don't drop into kill range so easily.
That's why I think the changes are excellent in this update: better fights vs dodge rollers, better fights vs heavy armor bleed builds, dmg shield builds (e.g. pet sorcs etc) - it's just generally more balanced across the board.
But yeah, I do realize that's just my build I'm talking about and there's plenty of others.
So what ZOS should do is buff skills used by other builds, if the changes in this update make dodge rollers too hard to kill for tankier builds with less dmg.
I think it'd be very simple; just significantly buffing Ash Cloud radius & making the damage ramp up the longer someone stays in it (meaning big, bursty ticks if someone stands in it say, 5 seconds) could make the more stationary tank DK very strong against those melee builds, but that skill still wouldn't be slotted by destro/resto DKs who like to move around & stick to people with Chains.
That's a win-win situation.
The worst thing they can do is roll back the changes, because then we're back at square one & I do think the Off Balance/Power Lash changes are overall a buff to mDK, even S&B ones.
zParallaxz wrote: »I almost thought you may have been good until you mentioned using empowering chains. LOL GTFOFlamingBeard wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »It is not one sided to mDK. Medium builds have and can win against mDK just as fine as mDKs can kill glass cannon med builds. Well built medium builds are harder to kill than a heavy build due to sheer amount of damage and sustain allowing them to heal virtually untouched unless mDK itself is stacking up damage. But when mDK focuses on damage stacking, it will die sooner or later due to lack of sustain and/or tankiness. Usually damage stacked mDKs tend to die just after dizzying (or whatever spammable they use) -> Dawnbreaker -> Execute. Takes like 2 to 3 seconds. This is why mDKs run s/b most of the times as it is their only real source of mitigation through blocking.
Even defense focused builds can be bursted in 2-3 seconds in light armor the moment pressure amounts (usually resources are gone through poison and in trying to deal with the pressure). Also, medium armor DoT builds with bleeding that goes through any resistance is very much a killer as well. Cannot heal through that damage pretty much. It is like a defile that makes mDK waste their magicka pool real fast trying to survive. It is not really one sided in mDK's favor.
Right, except the maximum potential burst you can take in 5/1/1 light armor (no S&B) is 19k, and your Healing Ward (only dmg shield in the game that scales also with spell dmg) outheals/shields entire rotations from your opponent. Not that these builds ever really get to go on offensive (unless they're Xv1'ing, as usual, in which case you shield/fossilize spam until you've got ulti & then kill them all).
It takes one Fossilize to turn the whole fight around once you've CC break'd their Incap/whatever & Healing Warded.
I can understand immobile S&B builds having trouble killing (maybe even surviving if there's Defile) medium armor builds if they have Troll King, but not high dmg mDKs.
It's the most onesided fight in the entire game at the moment, you'd have better chances against mDK as a naked magicka sorcerer.
Have you never fought an Immovability Troll King Eternal Hunt Dodgeblade?
Yes, plenty (that's a very popular open world build). They've zero chance of surviving longer than 10-20 seconds thanks to Empowering Chains on my bar & 8m range on Whip, which lets you hit them while you're bypassing mines from the side. I prefer fighting these builds in 1vX, less chance of dying than if I'm being pummeled by multiple high dmg gankers.FlamingBeard wrote: »Use a better build on your Nightblade if you seriously have that much trouble against magDKs.
...and maybe you should consider a better different build on mDK if you have trouble against medium armor players?FlamingBeard wrote: »They are not the counter to medium builds that you seem to think they are, and they certainly can't have BOTH the damage to kill those medium builds AND the bulk to survive their burst, as well as they sustain to spam Healing Ward as you like to advocate.
Sure you can, I have videos on my channel proving such builds work. I can duel any medium armor person of your choosing to prove that as well (on Live, or on PTS). As it happens, you get both damage and survivability by stacking spell dmg/magicka, since Healing Ward scales with both. And a mDK with Eyes of Mara resto bar can easily sustain spamming Healing Ward.FlamingBeard wrote: »Fight some ACTUAL good medium builds and not random pugs you asked to let you smack them with your Flame Lash until they die and call it a "combat test."
Like whom? Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate?FlamingBeard wrote: »You have posted nothing but negativity and contrarian, edgy word vomit in EVERY magDK thread.
Cease derailment or cease talking.
I'm merely getting the facts straight.
If you have problems vs medium armor builds as a magicka DK, that's entirely a L2P issue, and I'm sure pretty much every good player in this game would agree with that.
Now shoo, I'm sure you have thread number #13 or #14 to create.
Would you be so kind to elaborate how having undodgeable birbs/whip/embers was desireable from a gamemechanical pov when looking at a fight vs medium armor opponents?
Just disregard everything else of my post but i´m genuinly curious why people think having undodgeable high dmg singletarget abilities should be a thing i times of stacking dodgecost increase.
TLDR: the bolded part.
My opinion. Dodge roll defense is too good, even with the stacking cost (if anyone is dodging less because of it, it certainly isn't very noticeable to me - they all roll dodge all the time anyway). Especially in a fight involving multiple people, where other defenses like shielding and blocking can get overwhelmed, dodge still performs at 100% effectiveness because it does not care how many attackers are attacking you, it dodges it all.
Thus, having attacks that ignore dodge is desirable to counteract the above.
zParallaxz wrote: »I almost thought you may have been good until you mentioned using empowering chains. LOL GTFOFlamingBeard wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »It is not one sided to mDK. Medium builds have and can win against mDK just as fine as mDKs can kill glass cannon med builds. Well built medium builds are harder to kill than a heavy build due to sheer amount of damage and sustain allowing them to heal virtually untouched unless mDK itself is stacking up damage. But when mDK focuses on damage stacking, it will die sooner or later due to lack of sustain and/or tankiness. Usually damage stacked mDKs tend to die just after dizzying (or whatever spammable they use) -> Dawnbreaker -> Execute. Takes like 2 to 3 seconds. This is why mDKs run s/b most of the times as it is their only real source of mitigation through blocking.
Even defense focused builds can be bursted in 2-3 seconds in light armor the moment pressure amounts (usually resources are gone through poison and in trying to deal with the pressure). Also, medium armor DoT builds with bleeding that goes through any resistance is very much a killer as well. Cannot heal through that damage pretty much. It is like a defile that makes mDK waste their magicka pool real fast trying to survive. It is not really one sided in mDK's favor.
Right, except the maximum potential burst you can take in 5/1/1 light armor (no S&B) is 19k, and your Healing Ward (only dmg shield in the game that scales also with spell dmg) outheals/shields entire rotations from your opponent. Not that these builds ever really get to go on offensive (unless they're Xv1'ing, as usual, in which case you shield/fossilize spam until you've got ulti & then kill them all).
It takes one Fossilize to turn the whole fight around once you've CC break'd their Incap/whatever & Healing Warded.
I can understand immobile S&B builds having trouble killing (maybe even surviving if there's Defile) medium armor builds if they have Troll King, but not high dmg mDKs.
It's the most onesided fight in the entire game at the moment, you'd have better chances against mDK as a naked magicka sorcerer.
Have you never fought an Immovability Troll King Eternal Hunt Dodgeblade?
Yes, plenty (that's a very popular open world build). They've zero chance of surviving longer than 10-20 seconds thanks to Empowering Chains on my bar & 8m range on Whip, which lets you hit them while you're bypassing mines from the side. I prefer fighting these builds in 1vX, less chance of dying than if I'm being pummeled by multiple high dmg gankers.FlamingBeard wrote: »Use a better build on your Nightblade if you seriously have that much trouble against magDKs.
...and maybe you should consider a better different build on mDK if you have trouble against medium armor players?FlamingBeard wrote: »They are not the counter to medium builds that you seem to think they are, and they certainly can't have BOTH the damage to kill those medium builds AND the bulk to survive their burst, as well as they sustain to spam Healing Ward as you like to advocate.
Sure you can, I have videos on my channel proving such builds work. I can duel any medium armor person of your choosing to prove that as well (on Live, or on PTS). As it happens, you get both damage and survivability by stacking spell dmg/magicka, since Healing Ward scales with both. And a mDK with Eyes of Mara resto bar can easily sustain spamming Healing Ward.FlamingBeard wrote: »Fight some ACTUAL good medium builds and not random pugs you asked to let you smack them with your Flame Lash until they die and call it a "combat test."
Like whom? Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate?FlamingBeard wrote: »You have posted nothing but negativity and contrarian, edgy word vomit in EVERY magDK thread.
Cease derailment or cease talking.
I'm merely getting the facts straight.
If you have problems vs medium armor builds as a magicka DK, that's entirely a L2P issue, and I'm sure pretty much every good player in this game would agree with that.
Now shoo, I'm sure you have thread number #13 or #14 to create.
Ariades_swe wrote: »zParallaxz wrote: »I almost thought you may have been good until you mentioned using empowering chains. LOL GTFOFlamingBeard wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »It is not one sided to mDK. Medium builds have and can win against mDK just as fine as mDKs can kill glass cannon med builds. Well built medium builds are harder to kill than a heavy build due to sheer amount of damage and sustain allowing them to heal virtually untouched unless mDK itself is stacking up damage. But when mDK focuses on damage stacking, it will die sooner or later due to lack of sustain and/or tankiness. Usually damage stacked mDKs tend to die just after dizzying (or whatever spammable they use) -> Dawnbreaker -> Execute. Takes like 2 to 3 seconds. This is why mDKs run s/b most of the times as it is their only real source of mitigation through blocking.
Even defense focused builds can be bursted in 2-3 seconds in light armor the moment pressure amounts (usually resources are gone through poison and in trying to deal with the pressure). Also, medium armor DoT builds with bleeding that goes through any resistance is very much a killer as well. Cannot heal through that damage pretty much. It is like a defile that makes mDK waste their magicka pool real fast trying to survive. It is not really one sided in mDK's favor.
Right, except the maximum potential burst you can take in 5/1/1 light armor (no S&B) is 19k, and your Healing Ward (only dmg shield in the game that scales also with spell dmg) outheals/shields entire rotations from your opponent. Not that these builds ever really get to go on offensive (unless they're Xv1'ing, as usual, in which case you shield/fossilize spam until you've got ulti & then kill them all).
It takes one Fossilize to turn the whole fight around once you've CC break'd their Incap/whatever & Healing Warded.
I can understand immobile S&B builds having trouble killing (maybe even surviving if there's Defile) medium armor builds if they have Troll King, but not high dmg mDKs.
It's the most onesided fight in the entire game at the moment, you'd have better chances against mDK as a naked magicka sorcerer.
Have you never fought an Immovability Troll King Eternal Hunt Dodgeblade?
Yes, plenty (that's a very popular open world build). They've zero chance of surviving longer than 10-20 seconds thanks to Empowering Chains on my bar & 8m range on Whip, which lets you hit them while you're bypassing mines from the side. I prefer fighting these builds in 1vX, less chance of dying than if I'm being pummeled by multiple high dmg gankers.FlamingBeard wrote: »Use a better build on your Nightblade if you seriously have that much trouble against magDKs.
...and maybe you should consider a better different build on mDK if you have trouble against medium armor players?FlamingBeard wrote: »They are not the counter to medium builds that you seem to think they are, and they certainly can't have BOTH the damage to kill those medium builds AND the bulk to survive their burst, as well as they sustain to spam Healing Ward as you like to advocate.
Sure you can, I have videos on my channel proving such builds work. I can duel any medium armor person of your choosing to prove that as well (on Live, or on PTS). As it happens, you get both damage and survivability by stacking spell dmg/magicka, since Healing Ward scales with both. And a mDK with Eyes of Mara resto bar can easily sustain spamming Healing Ward.FlamingBeard wrote: »Fight some ACTUAL good medium builds and not random pugs you asked to let you smack them with your Flame Lash until they die and call it a "combat test."
Like whom? Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate?FlamingBeard wrote: »You have posted nothing but negativity and contrarian, edgy word vomit in EVERY magDK thread.
Cease derailment or cease talking.
I'm merely getting the facts straight.
If you have problems vs medium armor builds as a magicka DK, that's entirely a L2P issue, and I'm sure pretty much every good player in this game would agree with that.
Now shoo, I'm sure you have thread number #13 or #14 to create.
Shots fired.
zParallaxz wrote: »"duel me bro" ya except nobody is arguing that DK is bad in duels. We're arguing that the open world toolkit has been continuously watered down and could use some attention as DK was designed to work with several systems/mechanics that are no longer viable. You're even saying that these players who are in roll builds beat you 90% of the time if they just switch builds. So why is so terrible that we continue to discuss the weaknesses of both stamina and magicka DK asking for direction from ZOS regarding their vision for the class?
Well, I die less often to the heavy armor bleed builds in PTS thanks to the cooldown reduction on Power Lash (those builds generally don't dodge at all), having those PL heals up almost 24/7 helps immensely in mitigating the bleeds, so you don't drop into kill range so easily.
That's why I think the changes are excellent in this update: better fights vs dodge rollers, better fights vs heavy armor bleed builds, dmg shield builds (e.g. pet sorcs etc) - it's just generally more balanced across the board.
But yeah, I do realize that's just my build I'm talking about and there's plenty of others.
So what ZOS should do is buff skills used by other builds, if the changes in this update make dodge rollers too hard to kill for tankier builds with less dmg.
I think it'd be very simple; just significantly buffing Ash Cloud radius & making the damage ramp up the longer someone stays in it (meaning big, bursty ticks if someone stands in it say, 5 seconds) could make the more stationary tank DK very strong against those melee builds, but that skill still wouldn't be slotted by destro/resto DKs who like to move around & stick to people with Chains.
That's a win-win situation.
The worst thing they can do is roll back the changes, because then we're back at square one & I do think the Off Balance/Power Lash changes are overall a buff to mDK, even S&B ones.
From all the talk dude in starting to think your trolling and just blowing smoke up peoples butts. Let me see a clip of you fighting a decent stamplar wearing a fortified brass build with quick cloak.
Would you be so kind to elaborate how having undodgeable birbs/whip/embers was desireable from a gamemechanical pov when looking at a fight vs medium armor opponents?
Just disregard everything else of my post but i´m genuinly curious why people think having undodgeable high dmg singletarget abilities should be a thing i times of stacking dodgecost increase.
TLDR: the bolded part.
My opinion. Dodge roll defense is too good, even with the stacking cost (if anyone is dodging less because of it, it certainly isn't very noticeable to me - they all roll dodge all the time anyway). Especially in a fight involving multiple people, where other defenses like shielding and blocking can get overwhelmed, dodge still performs at 100% effectiveness because it does not care how many attackers are attacking you, it dodges it all.
Thus, having attacks that ignore dodge is desirable to counteract the above.
FloppyTouch wrote: »Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.
Ariades_swe wrote: »zParallaxz wrote: »I almost thought you may have been good until you mentioned using empowering chains. LOL GTFOFlamingBeard wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »It is not one sided to mDK. Medium builds have and can win against mDK just as fine as mDKs can kill glass cannon med builds. Well built medium builds are harder to kill than a heavy build due to sheer amount of damage and sustain allowing them to heal virtually untouched unless mDK itself is stacking up damage. But when mDK focuses on damage stacking, it will die sooner or later due to lack of sustain and/or tankiness. Usually damage stacked mDKs tend to die just after dizzying (or whatever spammable they use) -> Dawnbreaker -> Execute. Takes like 2 to 3 seconds. This is why mDKs run s/b most of the times as it is their only real source of mitigation through blocking.
Even defense focused builds can be bursted in 2-3 seconds in light armor the moment pressure amounts (usually resources are gone through poison and in trying to deal with the pressure). Also, medium armor DoT builds with bleeding that goes through any resistance is very much a killer as well. Cannot heal through that damage pretty much. It is like a defile that makes mDK waste their magicka pool real fast trying to survive. It is not really one sided in mDK's favor.
Right, except the maximum potential burst you can take in 5/1/1 light armor (no S&B) is 19k, and your Healing Ward (only dmg shield in the game that scales also with spell dmg) outheals/shields entire rotations from your opponent. Not that these builds ever really get to go on offensive (unless they're Xv1'ing, as usual, in which case you shield/fossilize spam until you've got ulti & then kill them all).
It takes one Fossilize to turn the whole fight around once you've CC break'd their Incap/whatever & Healing Warded.
I can understand immobile S&B builds having trouble killing (maybe even surviving if there's Defile) medium armor builds if they have Troll King, but not high dmg mDKs.
It's the most onesided fight in the entire game at the moment, you'd have better chances against mDK as a naked magicka sorcerer.
Have you never fought an Immovability Troll King Eternal Hunt Dodgeblade?
Yes, plenty (that's a very popular open world build). They've zero chance of surviving longer than 10-20 seconds thanks to Empowering Chains on my bar & 8m range on Whip, which lets you hit them while you're bypassing mines from the side. I prefer fighting these builds in 1vX, less chance of dying than if I'm being pummeled by multiple high dmg gankers.FlamingBeard wrote: »Use a better build on your Nightblade if you seriously have that much trouble against magDKs.
...and maybe you should consider a better different build on mDK if you have trouble against medium armor players?FlamingBeard wrote: »They are not the counter to medium builds that you seem to think they are, and they certainly can't have BOTH the damage to kill those medium builds AND the bulk to survive their burst, as well as they sustain to spam Healing Ward as you like to advocate.
Sure you can, I have videos on my channel proving such builds work. I can duel any medium armor person of your choosing to prove that as well (on Live, or on PTS). As it happens, you get both damage and survivability by stacking spell dmg/magicka, since Healing Ward scales with both. And a mDK with Eyes of Mara resto bar can easily sustain spamming Healing Ward.FlamingBeard wrote: »Fight some ACTUAL good medium builds and not random pugs you asked to let you smack them with your Flame Lash until they die and call it a "combat test."
Like whom? Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate?FlamingBeard wrote: »You have posted nothing but negativity and contrarian, edgy word vomit in EVERY magDK thread.
Cease derailment or cease talking.
I'm merely getting the facts straight.
If you have problems vs medium armor builds as a magicka DK, that's entirely a L2P issue, and I'm sure pretty much every good player in this game would agree with that.
Now shoo, I'm sure you have thread number #13 or #14 to create.
Shots fired.
Not really, just ignorance & lack of game knowledge broadcasted.
If slotting an undodgeable "Ambush" that not only gets me Major Empower, but also Major Expedition to keep up with my opponent (on the most immobile class in the game) makes me a bad player, then I guess I must be
I'm starting to understand the amount of QQ here, most people don't/can't theorycraft.zParallaxz wrote: »"duel me bro" ya except nobody is arguing that DK is bad in duels. We're arguing that the open world toolkit has been continuously watered down and could use some attention as DK was designed to work with several systems/mechanics that are no longer viable. You're even saying that these players who are in roll builds beat you 90% of the time if they just switch builds. So why is so terrible that we continue to discuss the weaknesses of both stamina and magicka DK asking for direction from ZOS regarding their vision for the class?
Well, I die less often to the heavy armor bleed builds in PTS thanks to the cooldown reduction on Power Lash (those builds generally don't dodge at all), having those PL heals up almost 24/7 helps immensely in mitigating the bleeds, so you don't drop into kill range so easily.
That's why I think the changes are excellent in this update: better fights vs dodge rollers, better fights vs heavy armor bleed builds, dmg shield builds (e.g. pet sorcs etc) - it's just generally more balanced across the board.
But yeah, I do realize that's just my build I'm talking about and there's plenty of others.
So what ZOS should do is buff skills used by other builds, if the changes in this update make dodge rollers too hard to kill for tankier builds with less dmg.
I think it'd be very simple; just significantly buffing Ash Cloud radius & making the damage ramp up the longer someone stays in it (meaning big, bursty ticks if someone stands in it say, 5 seconds) could make the more stationary tank DK very strong against those melee builds, but that skill still wouldn't be slotted by destro/resto DKs who like to move around & stick to people with Chains.
That's a win-win situation.
The worst thing they can do is roll back the changes, because then we're back at square one & I do think the Off Balance/Power Lash changes are overall a buff to mDK, even S&B ones.
From all the talk dude in starting to think your trolling and just blowing smoke up peoples butts. Let me see a clip of you fighting a decent stamplar wearing a fortified brass build with quick cloak.
Never lost to one - I don't know what sets they are wearing, but Fortified Brass is never going to be enough burst to get through Healing Ward - I'd be much more scared of something like Ravager+Briar to which I can die if I for some absurd reason don't hold block when POTL goes off to prevent getting combo'd.
If you can find me a medium stamplar to fight that you won't just call noob & berate when he/she loses, I'm available at all times in EU megaserver. Also on PTS after next patch (CC is too bugged to duel/test things accurately there atm).
But I think you're referring to this:
...around 03:52:00
See, I cannot die to that - I get low, I Healing Ward, Fossilize and it's over (I have like twice the dmg of the DK in that video, so you can imagine how it goes). I don't hang around at 60% health waiting to get any healing from Coag, I just Healing Ward before I can ever drop low enough to get bursted.
If a mDK using DW/Frost Staff loses to a medium stamplar that I can understand, that's clearly not a good setup vs stamina builds in general (due to Shuffle/Forward Momentum getting rid of WoE roots), especially stamplar that can drain your magicka like crazy with jabs while you're blocking with the frost staff.
It sounds to me that many people in general complaining about stam builds don't use resto staff on mDK, which imo is almost a must have if you're to survive Defiles or execute spam, or prevent dropping into burst range altogether.
People mention AOEs to stop rollers.
How bout you spam steall tornado on someone and tell me how fast you kill them.
How about a harder hitting one,
Dawnbreaker. Spam Dawn breaker.
Im tired of these half-a**ed areguments abouy not everything being dodgeable.
AND PLEASE STOP COMPARING ROLLERS TO PERMA-BLOCKERS.
They. Are. Not. The. Same.
You can have high dodging capabilities and still hit hard, no permablocker will hit hard. no permablocker will hit even hard enough to even remotley apply pressure. Please dont bring up a duel either.
There’s no denying it, 100% mitigation on everything will all ways be stronger than 50-70% mitigation on each individual attack.
Blocking is no better than dmg shields.
Good in 1v1 and thats it.
Shields and blocking get ripped through in OW if you havent found this out yet then you dont play OW enough to realise it.
zParallaxz wrote: »Ariades_swe wrote: »zParallaxz wrote: »I almost thought you may have been good until you mentioned using empowering chains. LOL GTFOFlamingBeard wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »It is not one sided to mDK. Medium builds have and can win against mDK just as fine as mDKs can kill glass cannon med builds. Well built medium builds are harder to kill than a heavy build due to sheer amount of damage and sustain allowing them to heal virtually untouched unless mDK itself is stacking up damage. But when mDK focuses on damage stacking, it will die sooner or later due to lack of sustain and/or tankiness. Usually damage stacked mDKs tend to die just after dizzying (or whatever spammable they use) -> Dawnbreaker -> Execute. Takes like 2 to 3 seconds. This is why mDKs run s/b most of the times as it is their only real source of mitigation through blocking.
Even defense focused builds can be bursted in 2-3 seconds in light armor the moment pressure amounts (usually resources are gone through poison and in trying to deal with the pressure). Also, medium armor DoT builds with bleeding that goes through any resistance is very much a killer as well. Cannot heal through that damage pretty much. It is like a defile that makes mDK waste their magicka pool real fast trying to survive. It is not really one sided in mDK's favor.
Right, except the maximum potential burst you can take in 5/1/1 light armor (no S&B) is 19k, and your Healing Ward (only dmg shield in the game that scales also with spell dmg) outheals/shields entire rotations from your opponent. Not that these builds ever really get to go on offensive (unless they're Xv1'ing, as usual, in which case you shield/fossilize spam until you've got ulti & then kill them all).
It takes one Fossilize to turn the whole fight around once you've CC break'd their Incap/whatever & Healing Warded.
I can understand immobile S&B builds having trouble killing (maybe even surviving if there's Defile) medium armor builds if they have Troll King, but not high dmg mDKs.
It's the most onesided fight in the entire game at the moment, you'd have better chances against mDK as a naked magicka sorcerer.
Have you never fought an Immovability Troll King Eternal Hunt Dodgeblade?
Yes, plenty (that's a very popular open world build). They've zero chance of surviving longer than 10-20 seconds thanks to Empowering Chains on my bar & 8m range on Whip, which lets you hit them while you're bypassing mines from the side. I prefer fighting these builds in 1vX, less chance of dying than if I'm being pummeled by multiple high dmg gankers.FlamingBeard wrote: »Use a better build on your Nightblade if you seriously have that much trouble against magDKs.
...and maybe you should consider a better different build on mDK if you have trouble against medium armor players?FlamingBeard wrote: »They are not the counter to medium builds that you seem to think they are, and they certainly can't have BOTH the damage to kill those medium builds AND the bulk to survive their burst, as well as they sustain to spam Healing Ward as you like to advocate.
Sure you can, I have videos on my channel proving such builds work. I can duel any medium armor person of your choosing to prove that as well (on Live, or on PTS). As it happens, you get both damage and survivability by stacking spell dmg/magicka, since Healing Ward scales with both. And a mDK with Eyes of Mara resto bar can easily sustain spamming Healing Ward.FlamingBeard wrote: »Fight some ACTUAL good medium builds and not random pugs you asked to let you smack them with your Flame Lash until they die and call it a "combat test."
Like whom? Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate?FlamingBeard wrote: »You have posted nothing but negativity and contrarian, edgy word vomit in EVERY magDK thread.
Cease derailment or cease talking.
I'm merely getting the facts straight.
If you have problems vs medium armor builds as a magicka DK, that's entirely a L2P issue, and I'm sure pretty much every good player in this game would agree with that.
Now shoo, I'm sure you have thread number #13 or #14 to create.
Shots fired.
Not really, just ignorance & lack of game knowledge broadcasted.
If slotting an undodgeable "Ambush" that not only gets me Major Empower, but also Major Expedition to keep up with my opponent (on the most immobile class in the game) makes me a bad player, then I guess I must be
I'm starting to understand the amount of QQ here, most people don't/can't theorycraft.zParallaxz wrote: »"duel me bro" ya except nobody is arguing that DK is bad in duels. We're arguing that the open world toolkit has been continuously watered down and could use some attention as DK was designed to work with several systems/mechanics that are no longer viable. You're even saying that these players who are in roll builds beat you 90% of the time if they just switch builds. So why is so terrible that we continue to discuss the weaknesses of both stamina and magicka DK asking for direction from ZOS regarding their vision for the class?
Well, I die less often to the heavy armor bleed builds in PTS thanks to the cooldown reduction on Power Lash (those builds generally don't dodge at all), having those PL heals up almost 24/7 helps immensely in mitigating the bleeds, so you don't drop into kill range so easily.
That's why I think the changes are excellent in this update: better fights vs dodge rollers, better fights vs heavy armor bleed builds, dmg shield builds (e.g. pet sorcs etc) - it's just generally more balanced across the board.
But yeah, I do realize that's just my build I'm talking about and there's plenty of others.
So what ZOS should do is buff skills used by other builds, if the changes in this update make dodge rollers too hard to kill for tankier builds with less dmg.
I think it'd be very simple; just significantly buffing Ash Cloud radius & making the damage ramp up the longer someone stays in it (meaning big, bursty ticks if someone stands in it say, 5 seconds) could make the more stationary tank DK very strong against those melee builds, but that skill still wouldn't be slotted by destro/resto DKs who like to move around & stick to people with Chains.
That's a win-win situation.
The worst thing they can do is roll back the changes, because then we're back at square one & I do think the Off Balance/Power Lash changes are overall a buff to mDK, even S&B ones.
From all the talk dude in starting to think your trolling and just blowing smoke up peoples butts. Let me see a clip of you fighting a decent stamplar wearing a fortified brass build with quick cloak.
Never lost to one - I don't know what sets they are wearing, but Fortified Brass is never going to be enough burst to get through Healing Ward - I'd be much more scared of something like Ravager+Briar to which I can die if I for some absurd reason don't hold block when POTL goes off to prevent getting combo'd.
If you can find me a medium stamplar to fight that you won't just call noob & berate when he/she loses, I'm available at all times in EU megaserver. Also on PTS after next patch (CC is too bugged to duel/test things accurately there atm).
But I think you're referring to this:
...around 03:52:00
See, I cannot die to that - I get low, I Healing Ward, Fossilize and it's over (I have like twice the dmg of the DK in that video, so you can imagine how it goes). I don't hang around at 60% health waiting to get any healing from Coag, I just Healing Ward before I can ever drop low enough to get bursted.
If a mDK using DW/Frost Staff loses to a medium stamplar that I can understand, that's clearly not a good setup vs stamina builds in general (due to Shuffle/Forward Momentum getting rid of WoE roots), especially stamplar that can drain your magicka like crazy with jabs while you're blocking with the frost staff.
It sounds to me that many people in general complaining about stam builds don't use resto staff on mDK, which imo is almost a must have if you're to survive Defiles or execute spam, or prevent dropping into burst range altogether.
Your link to twitch is broken, so I looked at your you-tube. You have alright stats meaning nothing eye catching, i.e you had 36k max mag, 4200 spell damage, 35% spell crit, and 11k max stam. On a side you made some foolish mistakes, you claim you use chain to also empower leap however, leap and nearly every ultimate in the game except incap cannot be empowered. Also you stack 75 into thaum. to get the exploiter passive, lol the 10% bonus damage from that does not compare when stacking a majority of cp into master at arms, elfborn, and elemental expert. As i know as so do many other magdks know, a stamplar that runs a fortified brass build with quick cloak is more likely to run you out of resources before you can beat them.
FloppyTouch wrote: »Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.
"duel me bro" ya except nobody is arguing that DK is bad in duels. We're arguing that the open world toolkit has been continuously watered down and could use some attention as DK was designed to work with several systems/mechanics that are no longer viable. You're even saying that these players who are in roll builds beat you 90% of the time if they just switch builds. So why is so terrible that we continue to discuss the weaknesses of both stamina and magicka DK asking for direction from ZOS regarding their vision for the class?
So not being able to 1vX top players is a DK issue now?
I strongly suggest reversing the removal of dodgability on power lash only. As it is the "defacto execute" of the DK class, being similar in function to beam and fury in its reliable hard finishing hit. Unlike embers or bird it isn't spammable without ability to dodge, and unlike executes like assassins+morphs or 2h exe, it requires a set up combo to finish.
It has many counters already; Range being a large one for DK as a whole, but more active ones such as shuffle or FM denying the use of roots in the first place, immo pots/immunity stopping hard CC and even if both of those can go through, if you can break free fast enough, roll, or mist, then you can either ignore the offbalance from normal lash, or normal lash itself, meaning that powerlash cannot proc on target. Adding another counter after both others have been setup causes a large waste of resources into a 3s cooldown.
As balance, it could instead go back to 5s, or consuming offbalance even if it doesn't stun.
Embers should be kept as is (dodgable) though, maybe a possiblity of increasing the range to 8m for QoL. Its hard to use against mobile/far targets, for example in HOF platforms it is very hard to use without falling off, and due to having to move from the AOE it is a high DPS loss.
I strongly suggest reversing the removal of dodgability on power lash only. As it is the "defacto execute" of the DK class, being similar in function to beam and fury in its reliable hard finishing hit. Unlike embers or bird it isn't spammable without ability to dodge, and unlike executes like assassins+morphs or 2h exe, it requires a set up combo to finish.
It has many counters already; Range being a large one for DK as a whole, but more active ones such as shuffle or FM denying the use of roots in the first place, immo pots/immunity stopping hard CC and even if both of those can go through, if you can break free fast enough, roll, or mist, then you can either ignore the offbalance from normal lash, or normal lash itself, meaning that powerlash cannot proc on target. Adding another counter after both others have been setup causes a large waste of resources into a 3s cooldown.
As balance, it could instead go back to 5s, or consuming offbalance even if it doesn't stun.
Embers should be kept as is (dodgable) though, maybe a possiblity of increasing the range to 8m for QoL. Its hard to use against mobile/far targets, for example in HOF platforms it is very hard to use without falling off, and due to having to move from the AOE it is a high DPS loss.
"defacto execute" that deals the same damage whether target is 100% or 0% health... hmm. I guess you wouldn't mind then if Power Lash only dealt big damage when target actually is in execute range and only hit for 2-3k when not?
And you probably wouldn't mind either if ZOS made Rev Slice undodgeable too - you know, to balance the executes across the board.
I'm sorry, but that's just ***.
If you are having trouble with people using "ranged" as some sort of a magical counter on your mDK which clearly doesn't have Chains slotted (or else you wouldn't be making those claims), then suggest something that would help your mDK & builds like yours perform better in PvP, rather than across the board changes that affect mDK builds that already stomp dodge rollers.
What you're suggesting would also nerf mDKs back to their current levels against dmg shield & heavy armor builds, which currently dominate everything (including mDKs) in 1v1.
As I said in the patch notes thread to someone stating the same. Sure. Make reverse slice undodgable, but make it have to use a CC and weaker version before each use. Deal?"Being similar in function to beam and fury in its reliable hard finishing hit. Unlike embers or bird it isn't spammable without ability to dodge, and unlike executes like assassins+morphs or 2h exe, it requires a set up combo to finish."
Joy_Division wrote: »FloppyTouch wrote: »Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.
Then why are we on the PTS?
I strongly suggest reversing the removal of dodgability on power lash only. As it is the "defacto execute" of the DK class, being similar in function to beam and fury in its reliable hard finishing hit. Unlike embers or bird it isn't spammable without ability to dodge, and unlike executes like assassins+morphs or 2h exe, it requires a set up combo to finish.
It has many counters already; Range being a large one for DK as a whole, but more active ones such as shuffle or FM denying the use of roots in the first place, immo pots/immunity stopping hard CC and even if both of those can go through, if you can break free fast enough, roll, or mist, then you can either ignore the offbalance from normal lash, or normal lash itself, meaning that powerlash cannot proc on target. Adding another counter after both others have been setup causes a large waste of resources into a 3s cooldown.
As balance, it could instead go back to 5s, or consuming offbalance even if it doesn't stun.
Embers should be kept as is (dodgable) though, maybe a possiblity of increasing the range to 8m for QoL. Its hard to use against mobile/far targets, for example in HOF platforms it is very hard to use without falling off, and due to having to move from the AOE it is a high DPS loss.
"defacto execute" that deals the same damage whether target is 100% or 0% health... hmm. I guess you wouldn't mind then if Power Lash only dealt big damage when target actually is in execute range and only hit for 2-3k when not?
And you probably wouldn't mind either if ZOS made Rev Slice undodgeable too - you know, to balance the executes across the board.
I'm sorry, but that's just ***.
If you are having trouble with people using "ranged" as some sort of a magical counter on your mDK which clearly doesn't have Chains slotted (or else you wouldn't be making those claims), then suggest something that would help your mDK & builds like yours perform better in PvP, rather than across the board changes that affect mDK builds that already stomp dodge rollers.
What you're suggesting would also nerf mDKs back to their current levels against dmg shield & heavy armor builds, which currently dominate everything (including mDKs) in 1v1.
AHEM...As I said in the patch notes thread to someone stating the same. Sure. Make reverse slice undodgable, but make it have to use a CC and weaker version before each use. Deal?"Being similar in function to beam and fury in its reliable hard finishing hit. Unlike embers or bird it isn't spammable without ability to dodge, and unlike executes like assassins+morphs or 2h exe, it requires a set up combo to finish."
Powerlash is one of the main finishers on a DK, as it deals a comparable amount of damage as an execute does, (reverse spams being around 5k at lower health) and is done when an enemy can be locked down more, often at lower resources/health, because otherwise it can be countered.
As said,when you get talonsed and aren't running FM before, purge, streak, dodge, hell even cloak so they will have to AoE. You can fossilize on live for a higher chance of hitting, unless ofc running FM, then a break instantly stops proc. But on PTS its resources down the drain. If a dodge build cannot deal with the two VERY counterable set up moves before it, then they have more issues than PL.
Ranged counters being, streak away, use mines/pets, Move out of talons radius a little bit, (VERY easy as a fast build,) I doubt you will chain every time someone moves out of your talons/petrify range. Chains doesn't bring you on top of your target, keep them in place, and give you a handy whilst doing so. Its not a be all end all to range counters.
Not really, heavy armour builds can be pressured really easily with a DK build, unless they run busted troll king. Similar with shield builds, unless running full stack with riposte etc. And having lash 2s sooner doesn't change the fact that they can dodge too, often having to build like that to deal with roots. Effectively making it a moot point.DDuke wrote:What you're suggesting would also nerf mDKs back to their current levels against dmg shield & heavy armor builds, which currently dominate everything (including mDKs) in 1v1.
People mention AOEs to stop rollers.
How bout you spam steall tornado on someone and tell me how fast you kill them.
How about a harder hitting one,
Dawnbreaker. Spam Dawn breaker.
Im tired of these half-a**ed areguments abouy not everything being dodgeable.
AND PLEASE STOP COMPARING ROLLERS TO PERMA-BLOCKERS.
They. Are. Not. The. Same.
You can have high dodging capabilities and still hit hard, no permablocker will hit hard. no permablocker will hit even hard enough to even remotley apply pressure. Please dont bring up a duel either.
There’s no denying it, 100% mitigation on everything will all ways be stronger than 50-70% mitigation on each individual attack.
Blocking is no better than dmg shields.
Good in 1v1 and thats it.
Shields and blocking get ripped through in OW if you havent found this out yet then you dont play OW enough to realise it.