Powerlash & Searing Strike 3.3.3

KaiserKnight
KaiserKnight
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It is clear the combat devs want more skills to be dodgable and blockable. With the recent changes to both of these skills, magicka dragonknights will have a much tougher time landing these skills against other players. A significant drop in sustain/healing will be very noticable against dodgeroll centric builds, passive dodge (shuffle/evasion), and stamina players with trollking who can now dodge damage they could previously heal through. I have listed a few suggestions that could significantly improve a few dragonknight skills while keeping them balanced and stay within the combat devs vision for dodging.

Powerlash And Searing Strike


Powerlash:


Give Flamelash a 50% chance to proc Powerlash by itself, and keep its ability to proc from the offbalance provided from talons and petrify.

NOTE: Still a global 3 Second Cooldown on Powerlash

(Reason: A lot of Magicka Dragonknight players have said that talons easily telegraphs your powerlash and is a huge drain on your magicka pool. This change would still keep flamelash at a 3 second cooldown but would not force players to waste magicka on talons and would allow them to perform a combo that is not easily telegraphed by "talons" while still keeping the skill balanced and dodgable)

Searing Strike:

Give all morphs of this ability a 8 m range so that it is in line with melee ranged abilities such as flame lash and petrify.

(Reason: 5 m is shorter than most melee ranged attacks and now that it is dodgable it will be very difficult to land)

Other Skills:

Reflective Scale (Wings)

Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds.

(Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)

Keep this forum constructive.

Lets hope DKs get some love before the patch drops!

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert






Edited by KaiserKnight on January 31, 2018 5:26AM
  • FlamingBeard
    FlamingBeard
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    I would like to bump this for visibility but also to add: Power Lash proc'ing outside of Off-Balance sometimes would make sustain more manageable in most cases, bringing up DPS as a result PvE.
  • bigdavid11b16_ESO
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    proposal isn't unreasonable.
  • Peekachu99
    Peekachu99
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    Trollking and Health Regen in general have been nerfed to the point of uselessness—so I don’t agree with that part of your post. The infinite sustain from power lash had to be changed. If you’d ever been on the receiving end of that you wouldn’t be arguing otherwise. I would rather wait and see how good or bad it is in live before further tweaking.

    And a firm “no” to the Reflective Scales proposed change. If you’re going to compare abilities, the Warden’s crystal shield morph fires a pitiful ranged attack, not 1-4 crystal frags (or whatever) with increased damage. Someone suggested lowering the cost of Wings, and that’s a better idea.
  • IZZEFlameLash
    IZZEFlameLash
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    Costs in general for DK needs to be reduced to be in line with other classes if we are going to have our skills adjusted to the equal ground. Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • joaaocaampos
    joaaocaampos
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    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
    Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.

    Do you want all classes to look like each other? So it's best to end classes.
    Edited by joaaocaampos on January 31, 2018 1:58AM
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Was it really necessary to create thread number... 11? 12?

    Why not post in the existing ones rather than flooding the forum with these mDK threads?
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • IZZEFlameLash
    IZZEFlameLash
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    Do you want all classes to look like each other? So it's best to end classes.

    Don't tell that to me. Tell that to ZoS. What ZoS has been going as far as directions go is 'everyone can do whatever the roles they want to play'. Class identity has been lost long long time ago.
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • Lord_Zele
    Lord_Zele
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    Lord_Hev wrote: »
    These are excellent ideas.


    An alternative to major expedition on wings, having some stamina or magicka returned from each reflected hit would also balance it with Shimmering Shield.

    That would be amazing.
    @Lord_Zele -GODSLAYER GM- Flawless Conqueror, Former Emperor, Just Another Player 1k+CP) YouTube Partner
    YT: https://www.youtube.com/c/LordZele
    Twitch:
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Was it really necessary to create thread number... 11? 12?

    Why not post in the existing ones rather than flooding the forum with these mDK threads?

    Weren’t you the one complaining that the devs wouldn’t pay attention to the previous threads because they were whiney?

    End of that subject now, please.

    Post constructive feedback to the orginal post.

    Ok.
    It is clear the combat devs want more skills to be dodgeable and blockable. With the recent changes to both of these skills, magicka dragonknights will have a much tougher time landing these skills against other players. A significant drop in sustain/healing will be very noticable against dodgeroll centric builds, passive dodge (shuffle/evasion),

    Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).

    Whether you actually deal damage with it or not has no bearing on sustain, only how much magicka/second you spend does (which will be less, if every 3s you use a free ability).

    Also, on PTS you still get the heal portion even if you miss with the Power Lash (tested). Not sure if this is intended.
    Also the heal duration is 4s rather than 2s (again, not sure if intended).

    Which means healing is better after these changes.

    There is no significant drop in sustain/healing, there is a significant increase.
    and stamina players with trollking who can now dodge damage they could previously heal through.

    Obligatory fact check: Half True. No medium armor build can heal through the damage done by high dmg mDK.
    Many have tried, all have failed. Damage from S&B tank DKs, different story.
    I have listed a few suggestions that could significantly improve a few dragonknight skills while keeping them balanced and stay within the combat devs vision for dodging.

    Powerlash And Searing Strike


    Powerlash:


    Give Flamelash a 50% chance to proc Powerlash by itself, and keep its ability to proc from the offbalance provided from talons and petrify.

    (Reason: A lot of Magicka Dragonknight players have said that talons easily telegraphs your powerlash and is a huge drain on your magicka pool. This change would still keep flamelash at a 3 second cooldown but would not force players to waste magicka on talons and would allow them to perform a combo that is not easily telegraphed by "talons" while still keeping the skill balanced and dodgeable)

    Right. Except Power Lash isn't "telegraphed", it's an instant cast ability. What you probably mean is that an opponent anticipates it, which means you're playing predictably.

    Instead of Talons->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Talons->Flame Lash->Leap(catch them mid-dodge roll)->Power Lash, or use some time to refresh DoTs/buffs before using the Power Lash.


    There is absolutely no need to buff the ability further, 3s cooldown is already basically nothing (you can cast one or two skills in-between or dodge roll once before next proc is up). What it sounds like is that you want to spam Power Lash, which is exactly what the cooldown was made to prevent.
    Searing Strike:

    Give all morphs of this ability a 8 m range so that it is in line with melee ranged abilities such as flame lash and petrify.

    (Reason: 5 m is shorter than most melee ranged attacks and now that it is dodgeable it will be very difficult to land)

    I can get behind that.
    Other Skills:

    Reflective Scale (Wings)

    Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds

    (Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)

    I doubt Major Expedition would accomplish much. If it were that simple to "fix DK mobility", people would just run speed potions instead and have a free permanent uptime on it.

    This morph does need buffing though, as it's extremely weak compared to the other one. Perhaps it could reflect snares back at the people who cast them? :lol:
    Edited by DDuke on January 31, 2018 2:59AM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • Jjitsuboy98
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    The wings instead of giving expedition need to get rid of snares. Like above poster said we can run speed pots but if we are still snared they are wasted.
  • FlamingBeard
    FlamingBeard
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    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Was it really necessary to create thread number... 11? 12?

    Why not post in the existing ones rather than flooding the forum with these mDK threads?

    Weren’t you the one complaining that the devs wouldn’t pay attention to the previous threads because they were whiney?

    End of that subject now, please.

    Post constructive feedback to the orginal post.

    Ok.
    It is clear the combat devs want more skills to be dodgeable and blockable. With the recent changes to both of these skills, magicka dragonknights will have a much tougher time landing these skills against other players. A significant drop in sustain/healing will be very noticable against dodgeroll centric builds, passive dodge (shuffle/evasion),

    Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).

    Whether you actually deal damage with it or not has no bearing on sustain, only how much magicka/second you spend does (which will be less, if every 3s you use a free ability).

    Also, on PTS you still get the heal portion even if you miss with the Power Lash (tested). Not sure if this is intended.
    Also the heal duration is 4s rather than 2s (again, not sure if intended).

    Which means healing is better after these changes.

    There is no significant drop in sustain/healing, there is a significant increase.
    and stamina players with trollking who can now dodge damage they could previously heal through.

    Obligatory fact check: Half True. No medium armor build can heal through the damage done by high dmg mDK.
    Many have tried, all have failed. Damage from S&B tank DKs, different story.
    I have listed a few suggestions that could significantly improve a few dragonknight skills while keeping them balanced and stay within the combat devs vision for dodging.

    Powerlash And Searing Strike


    Powerlash:


    Give Flamelash a 50% chance to proc Powerlash by itself, and keep its ability to proc from the offbalance provided from talons and petrify.

    (Reason: A lot of Magicka Dragonknight players have said that talons easily telegraphs your powerlash and is a huge drain on your magicka pool. This change would still keep flamelash at a 3 second cooldown but would not force players to waste magicka on talons and would allow them to perform a combo that is not easily telegraphed by "talons" while still keeping the skill balanced and dodgeable)

    Right. Except Power Lash isn't "telegraphed", it's an instant cast ability. What you probably mean is that an opponent anticipates it, which means you're playing predictably.

    Instead of Talons->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Talons->Flame Lash->Leap(catch them mid-dodge roll)->Power Lash, or use some time to refresh DoTs/buffs before using the Power Lash.


    There is absolutely no need to buff the ability further, 3s cooldown is already basically nothing (you can cast one or two skills in-between or dodge roll once before next proc is up). What it sounds like is that you want to spam Power Lash, which is exactly what the cooldown was made to prevent.
    Searing Strike:

    Give all morphs of this ability a 8 m range so that it is in line with melee ranged abilities such as flame lash and petrify.

    (Reason: 5 m is shorter than most melee ranged attacks and now that it is dodgeable it will be very difficult to land)

    I can get behind that.
    Other Skills:

    Reflective Scale (Wings)

    Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds

    (Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)

    I doubt Major Expedition would accomplish much. If it were that simple to "fix DK mobility", people would just run speed potions instead and have a free permanent uptime on it.

    This morph does need buffing though, as it's extremely weak compared to the other one. Perhaps it could reflect snares back at the people who cast them? :lol:

    Explain to me how else you’re suppose to get Power Lashes except the extremely telegraphy way of rooting or CCing someone as you Flame Lash them?

    KaiserKnight suggested that Power Lash be able to proc outside of off-balance, keeping the 3 second cooldown still.

    Guaranteed Power Lash with off-balance, only a chance to Power Lash without off-balance. If Power Lash occurs under either of these conditions, a shared 3 second cooldown activates. Understand?

    It would help sustain because you wouldn’t be forced to use Talons (extremely costly to use often) every other instant to get burst damage on a target.

    He never said that he wants to spam Power Lash... like at all in the original post, it’s not even implied.
    Edited by FlamingBeard on January 31, 2018 3:11AM
  • krathos
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    DDuke wrote: »

    I doubt Major Expedition would accomplish much. If it were that simple to "fix DK mobility", people would just run speed potions instead and have a free permanent uptime on it.

    This morph does need buffing though, as it's extremely weak compared to the other one. Perhaps it could reflect snares back at the people who cast them? :lol:

    Since there are no magicka + speed pots that would mean losing out on significant sustain; the magicka back from the pot and the major intellect 100% uptime. This is a compromise I make in my build, personally, but I know others can't. Major expedition, still, would only be useful if you could remove the snares. I'd actually rather give magdk something interesting and useful for group and make fragmented shield cleanse snares on allies (and yourself) and give immunity for 3-4s (shorter than forward momentum but it's for the group). This also makes it a challenging choice for DKs to pick major mending (stand your ground) or snare immunity/removal (more mobile/group oriented).

    Wings getting major expedition would boost my current build, for sure, as I run forward momentum and speed pots.
    Edited by krathos on January 31, 2018 3:13AM
    Flapjack Palmdale
    <ANIMOSITY>

    Grand Overlord - Magicka Dragonknight
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Was it really necessary to create thread number... 11? 12?

    Why not post in the existing ones rather than flooding the forum with these mDK threads?

    Weren’t you the one complaining that the devs wouldn’t pay attention to the previous threads because they were whiney?

    End of that subject now, please.

    Post constructive feedback to the orginal post.

    Ok.
    It is clear the combat devs want more skills to be dodgeable and blockable. With the recent changes to both of these skills, magicka dragonknights will have a much tougher time landing these skills against other players. A significant drop in sustain/healing will be very noticable against dodgeroll centric builds, passive dodge (shuffle/evasion),

    Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).

    Whether you actually deal damage with it or not has no bearing on sustain, only how much magicka/second you spend does (which will be less, if every 3s you use a free ability).

    Also, on PTS you still get the heal portion even if you miss with the Power Lash (tested). Not sure if this is intended.
    Also the heal duration is 4s rather than 2s (again, not sure if intended).

    Which means healing is better after these changes.

    There is no significant drop in sustain/healing, there is a significant increase.
    and stamina players with trollking who can now dodge damage they could previously heal through.

    Obligatory fact check: Half True. No medium armor build can heal through the damage done by high dmg mDK.
    Many have tried, all have failed. Damage from S&B tank DKs, different story.
    I have listed a few suggestions that could significantly improve a few dragonknight skills while keeping them balanced and stay within the combat devs vision for dodging.

    Powerlash And Searing Strike


    Powerlash:


    Give Flamelash a 50% chance to proc Powerlash by itself, and keep its ability to proc from the offbalance provided from talons and petrify.

    (Reason: A lot of Magicka Dragonknight players have said that talons easily telegraphs your powerlash and is a huge drain on your magicka pool. This change would still keep flamelash at a 3 second cooldown but would not force players to waste magicka on talons and would allow them to perform a combo that is not easily telegraphed by "talons" while still keeping the skill balanced and dodgeable)

    Right. Except Power Lash isn't "telegraphed", it's an instant cast ability. What you probably mean is that an opponent anticipates it, which means you're playing predictably.

    Instead of Talons->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Talons->Flame Lash->Leap(catch them mid-dodge roll)->Power Lash, or use some time to refresh DoTs/buffs before using the Power Lash.


    There is absolutely no need to buff the ability further, 3s cooldown is already basically nothing (you can cast one or two skills in-between or dodge roll once before next proc is up). What it sounds like is that you want to spam Power Lash, which is exactly what the cooldown was made to prevent.
    Searing Strike:

    Give all morphs of this ability a 8 m range so that it is in line with melee ranged abilities such as flame lash and petrify.

    (Reason: 5 m is shorter than most melee ranged attacks and now that it is dodgeable it will be very difficult to land)

    I can get behind that.
    Other Skills:

    Reflective Scale (Wings)

    Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds

    (Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)

    I doubt Major Expedition would accomplish much. If it were that simple to "fix DK mobility", people would just run speed potions instead and have a free permanent uptime on it.

    This morph does need buffing though, as it's extremely weak compared to the other one. Perhaps it could reflect snares back at the people who cast them? :lol:

    Explain to me how else you’re suppose to get Power Lashes except the extremely telegraphy way of rooting or CCing someone as you Flame Lash them?

    I think there's a misunderstanding of the word "telegraph". Telegraph means you know when an ability is going to land (e.g. Selene bear appearing 1s before the hit lands is a "telegraph"). Root/CC isn't a telegraph for anything but Flame Lash (if target isn't Off Balance), and not even for that really because people often Fossilize->Leap too. When you actually spend that Power Lash charge is up to you (if you think opponent is going to dodge, don't).
    KaiserKnight suggested that Power Lash be able to proc outside of off-balance, keeping the 3 second cooldown still.

    Guaranteed Power Lash with off-balance, only a chance to Power Lash without off-balance. If Power Lash occurs under either of these conditions, a shared 3 second cooldown activates. Understand?

    It would help sustain because you wouldn’t be forced to use Talons (extremely costly to use often) every other instant to get burst damage on a target.

    He never said that he wants to spam Power Lash... like at all in the original post, it’s not even implied.

    Aha, gotcha. Still not a fan of that idea though, I feel like it'd dumb down the class and make gameplay less skill oriented.

    It'd be like a stamblade asking Surprise Attack to stun/off balance target even from outside of stealth.


    I for one really enjoy these conditional effects as they add depth to the gameplay.
    Edited by DDuke on January 31, 2018 3:30AM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • FlamingBeard
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    The non off-balance Power Lash proc chance could be low-ish, but there still needs to be more burst damage opportunities for a class like magDK which has some of the highest costs but little resource return opportunities without being pigeon holed into always running a destruction staff for Elemental Drain.

    No other magicka class requires that much dedication to sustain because they have skills which accomplish this goal (Channeled Focus, Siphoning Attacks, Dark Conversion, Betty Netch, etc)

    Costs need to be reduced and certain passives need updating to be made more relevant.
    Edited by FlamingBeard on January 31, 2018 3:40AM
  • IZZEFlameLash
    IZZEFlameLash
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    Tbh, I'd just be happy if they reduced the costs and updated passives.
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • Sixty5
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    Just thinking, why not give Power Lash the full on Crystal Frags treatment where it has a chance to get a proc any time you cast an ability while it is on bar and then just completely remove the off balance component?

    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

    I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
    Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds
  • KaiserKnight
    KaiserKnight
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    @DDuke

    *The healing only applies if the animation is performed before the person dodges powerlash, so its not 100%.
    - Now the embers is dodgable it will be tougher to heal against those builds.
    - Sustain will suffer because you will have to use abilities more frequently.

    *Also I clearly state that the 3 second cooldown would still be in place, I do NOT want powerlash spam.
    - The 50% chance to proc powerlash on flamelash would just be an alternative way to proc powerlash without talons. A lot of Magicka Dragonknights have issues with sustain, I feel like talons is a big contributor to sustain issues. It cost nearly 4K mag just to proc one powerlash, so this alternative would give a mag dk an option to save resources if they are running low and would make powerlash less predictable as many opponents will instinctively dodge out of talons.

    *Thank you everyone for posting constructive comments, I have hopes that we can come up with some reasonable changes for DK in this forum.*
  • FlamingBeard
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    @ZOS_GinaBruno I feel that these suggestions are overall very realistic goals to at least aim for in improving magDK’s skillset.
  • usmcjdking
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    I think it's an interesting idea.

    Not particularly balanced - but a good idea. I'd probably slap a cost onto power lash if we're going to increase the methods of proccing it.
    0331
    0602
  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    DDuke wrote: »

    Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).

    Keep in mind that the ultimate goal is to kill the enemy player, not to cast powerlashes.

    While you can use the free cost power last twice as often now, everytime your opponent dodges one, he gets to keep his health that would otherwise be lost, and that means you have to spend more magicka to remove that health, which negatively impacts your sustain over the course of the fight.

    Old system: I can powerlash and reliably remove 5k health
    New system: I can powerlash twice, and potentially remove 10K health, but also potentially remove 0 health.

    The more a class dodges, the worse the impact on your overall sustain will be. And i don't need to remind you how often one sees "Dodge!" on his screen when attacking certain builds.
  • coplannb16_ESO
    coplannb16_ESO
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).

    Whether you actually deal damage with it or not has no bearing on sustain, only how much magicka/second you spend does (which will be less, if every 3s you use a free ability).

    Also, on PTS you still get the heal portion even if you miss with the Power Lash (tested). Not sure if this is intended.
    Also the heal duration is 4s rather than 2s (again, not sure if intended).
    ...

    Obligatory fact check: False

    I use Power Lash on (global) cooldown on live because I got >80% uptime on off-balance. Doing this to great success in PvP too.

    The longer heal on PTS is a bug, until ZOS adds that behaviour to their official patch notes.


    edit:
    and one more thing: in PvE when a boss gets off-balance we are forced (much more than everyone else) to HA for doubled resource return. That shuts down our window to user Power Lash.
    Suggestion here:
    Either remove the off-balance requirement completely (or change it to something else like Burning or Concussed effect) or make Power Lash also return magicka in comparable height to a heavy attack on off-balanced enemies.
    Edited by coplannb16_ESO on January 31, 2018 7:12AM
    max level: mDK, stamBlade, stamSorc, magPlar, mDen, stamDen, magBlade, stamCro
    ESO+
    # of mules: 4 (FULL)
    maxed bank: FULL -_-
    Stop the grind! Get rid of stupid events and daily-quest gallore. Get rid of "have a chance of 1 in a million to get a piece of 1 in 30 to get a stupid motif or pet... wtf..."
    And at this point just remove all classes and have everyone choose their set of skills. then balance accordingly to skills always used vs. skills never used.
  • FlamingBeard
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    I think it's an interesting idea.

    Not particularly balanced - but a good idea. I'd probably slap a cost onto power lash if we're going to increase the methods of proccing it.

    But it would still have a 3 second cooldown.

    That’s perfectly reasonable for having only a small chance to proc unless the opponent is set off-balance.

    It would allow magDK to do better DPS in PvE and have slightly more magicka sustain, while also not making it too strong in PvP.
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