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Does any StamDk here feel the heroic slash nerf?

KingLogix
KingLogix
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With all the commotion about DK’s in general in this last week, I was very sure some things were going to get rebalanced(possible in our favor XD). Out of all of the skills(Suprise attack, Incap, Subterranean assault, and jabs) they decide to nerf heroic slash. Can anyone link me a post where someone is actually complaining about the ability?

Which class utilizes heroic slash the most? Definitely Stamina DK’s. It’s no argument. With that being said, it must have been another direct nerf.

We literally have use that ability to line up an already high counter played ability(dizzy swing). If we miss the dizzy swing? Tough ***... we don’t have a poison whip, Suprise attack, subterranean, or jabs to fall to fall back on. (This is for you to Stam sorcs).

I understand this nerf to the ability won’t completely break our class. My concerns is the direction our class is going. All of these direct/indirect nerfs are pretty small, but when you compile them all together on a list, it’s pretty fat. They don’t seem to understand the impacts they are having.

I propose we get a poison inhale(it seems more possible then poison whip). They can keep all the changes, but they definitely need to provide us a little more offensive capability. We have the most counter play at the moment
  • Ocelot9x
    Ocelot9x
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    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.
  • DocFrost72
    DocFrost72
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    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Noxious breath,
    Venomous Claw,
    Take Flight

    Are all physical/poison based making them good for stamina. Unless of course you don't count incap, crescent, and warden bear in your other calculations. In that case, carry on.
    "Should I do it? No. Will I do it? Of ***ing course I will."
    "Offense is taken, not given."
    Kevehk Silverthorn: Breton Magicka Sorcerer pet DPS
    Hailie the Returned: Bosmer Stamina Necromancer 2H DPS
    Glacius Cromeum: Imperial Stamina Templar 2H DPS
    Nivek the Shadow: Imperial Stamina Nightblade DPS
    Syldraaendril Nightwood: Bosmer Stamina Warden DPS
    Koht: Imperial (dremora) Dragonknight Tank
    Hailie Silverthorn: Bosmer Stamina Templar DPS
    Araenandriah Lyrovehkem: Bosmer Stamina Nightblade DPS
    Titus Morric Silverthorn: Imperial Stamina Dragonknight DPS
    Kartendor: Altmer Sorcerer Tank
    Sephy-Lemme-Smash: Argonian Warden Tank
    Aeris Silverthorn: Breton Templar Healer
    Ji'Vashi: Khajiit Stamina Nightblade 2H DPS
    Danron Lyrovehkem: Imperial HeckifIknow Sorcerer

    Vehk Silverthorn: Imperial Necromancer Tank in training
    Kevin Silverthorn: Imperial Necromancer Healer in training.
  • Ocelot9x
    Ocelot9x
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    DocFrost72 wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Noxious breath,
    Venomous Claw,
    Take Flight

    Are all physical/poison based making them good for stamina. Unless of course you don't count incap, crescent, and warden bear in your other calculations. In that case, carry on.

    Wasn't counting take flight since it's an ultimate. And yeah,stamina dk is the only class with only 2 useful stamina skills/passives.
    Stamina sorc is close behind but his kit provides tons of more useful skill
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    DocFrost72 wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Noxious breath,
    Venomous Claw,
    Take Flight

    Are all physical/poison based making them good for stamina. Unless of course you don't count incap, crescent, and warden bear in your other calculations. In that case, carry on.

    Add Corrosive Armor (which is quite good, but it's cost is too damn high)
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    Get rid of poison on DKs...
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
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    Calling a reduced snare from S&B a(n exclusive) nerf to DK's is a bit of a stretch.
    You know what’s really sad? The fact that a nerf to that ability is infact a nerf to the Stam Dk. Heroic slash is our jabs, Suprise attack, and subterranean assault. That is our “spammable dps”. We have to use that ability to line up a high counter play ability(dizzy swing). They reduced it by about 75-80%. That’s like reducing the fracture by 75-80% on Suprise attack. It wouldn’t hurt the stamblades all to much, because they already have a nice kit to work with, but you get the point.


  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
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    DocFrost72 wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Noxious breath,
    Venomous Claw,
    Take Flight

    Are all physical/poison based making them good for stamina. Unless of course you don't count incap, crescent, and warden bear in your other calculations. In that case, carry on.

    2 of them are dots, and one of them are ultis. Imagine your Stam blade without Suprise attack? What if they replaced it with a dot? Same with stamplars and wardens. Just take off jabs/subterranean and replace them with dot. Would you still keep the same response? I’m not trying to be a jerk at all. I’m just asking for people to be open minded, wether they play the Stam Dk or not.

  • DocFrost72
    DocFrost72
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    KingLogix wrote: »
    DocFrost72 wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Noxious breath,
    Venomous Claw,
    Take Flight

    Are all physical/poison based making them good for stamina. Unless of course you don't count incap, crescent, and warden bear in your other calculations. In that case, carry on.

    2 of them are dots, and one of them are ultis. Imagine your Stam blade without Suprise attack? What if they replaced it with a dot? Same with stamplars and wardens. Just take off jabs/subterranean and replace them with dot. Would you still keep the same response? I’m not trying to be a jerk at all. I’m just asking for people to be open minded, wether they play the Stam Dk or not.

    Actually, if you replaced my jabs with a dot it'd be bittersweet. I'd pull way more damage in pve and suffer in pvp. In PvE, people use sub as a dot (they wouldn't spam it). PvP, it's great burst.

    And my response was that there are more than two "stamina" abilities in the DK toolkit. I was even wrong: there's four, not three. That isn't changing regardless of what my opinion on DKS is, because it's a fact. :tongue:

    Notice, by the by, I didn't say if I even agree with anything (literally) you posted or not? I just wanted to correct misinformation. Thanks to @Xvorg for the one I missed as well.
    "Should I do it? No. Will I do it? Of ***ing course I will."
    "Offense is taken, not given."
    Kevehk Silverthorn: Breton Magicka Sorcerer pet DPS
    Hailie the Returned: Bosmer Stamina Necromancer 2H DPS
    Glacius Cromeum: Imperial Stamina Templar 2H DPS
    Nivek the Shadow: Imperial Stamina Nightblade DPS
    Syldraaendril Nightwood: Bosmer Stamina Warden DPS
    Koht: Imperial (dremora) Dragonknight Tank
    Hailie Silverthorn: Bosmer Stamina Templar DPS
    Araenandriah Lyrovehkem: Bosmer Stamina Nightblade DPS
    Titus Morric Silverthorn: Imperial Stamina Dragonknight DPS
    Kartendor: Altmer Sorcerer Tank
    Sephy-Lemme-Smash: Argonian Warden Tank
    Aeris Silverthorn: Breton Templar Healer
    Ji'Vashi: Khajiit Stamina Nightblade 2H DPS
    Danron Lyrovehkem: Imperial HeckifIknow Sorcerer

    Vehk Silverthorn: Imperial Necromancer Tank in training
    Kevin Silverthorn: Imperial Necromancer Healer in training.
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
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    DocFrost72 wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    DocFrost72 wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Noxious breath,
    Venomous Claw,
    Take Flight

    Are all physical/poison based making them good for stamina. Unless of course you don't count incap, crescent, and warden bear in your other calculations. In that case, carry on.

    2 of them are dots, and one of them are ultis. Imagine your Stam blade without Suprise attack? What if they replaced it with a dot? Same with stamplars and wardens. Just take off jabs/subterranean and replace them with dot. Would you still keep the same response? I’m not trying to be a jerk at all. I’m just asking for people to be open minded, wether they play the Stam Dk or not.

    Actually, if you replaced my jabs with a dot it'd be bittersweet. I'd pull way more damage in pve and suffer in pvp. In PvE, people use sub as a dot (they wouldn't spam it). PvP, it's great burst.

    And my response was that there are more than two "stamina" abilities in the DK toolkit. I was even wrong: there's four, not three. That isn't changing regardless of what my opinion on DKS is, because it's a fact. :tongue:

    Notice, by the by, I didn't say if I even agree with anything (literally) you posted or not? I just wanted to correct misinformation. Thanks to @Xvorg for the one I missed as well.

    I appreciate you clarifying on that! Sorry if I came off defensive. I speak on the behalf of Pvp. There are some great dots for PvE that the Stam Dk provides. But Unfortunately, they aren’t too great for Pvp.(burst damage is naturally better then dot in pvp) I’m not very sure on how they will be able buff the Stam Dk without it buffing the Pve side.
  • DDuke
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    KingLogix wrote: »
    DocFrost72 wrote: »
    Ocelot9x wrote: »
    I really don't understand why we are the only class with only 2 stamina morphs in the game.

    Noxious breath,
    Venomous Claw,
    Take Flight

    Are all physical/poison based making them good for stamina. Unless of course you don't count incap, crescent, and warden bear in your other calculations. In that case, carry on.

    2 of them are dots, and one of them are ultis. Imagine your Stam blade without Suprise attack? What if they replaced it with a dot? Same with stamplars and wardens. Just take off jabs/subterranean and replace them with dot. Would you still keep the same response? I’m not trying to be a jerk at all. I’m just asking for people to be open minded, wether they play the Stam Dk or not.

    Before stamblades got stamina morph for Surprise Attack (2015 I think it was), they used to run with Flying Blade in PvP :p

    Different meta of course, no Battle Spirit, cloak purging debuffs (and actually working decently) etc etc...
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • Firstmep
    Firstmep
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    You do realis that they only nerfing the snare duration, you can reapply it just as easily.
    Fighting dks like that is one of the most cancerous experience in pvp i can imagine.
    In fact heroic slash spammers are the primary reason i dont play any spec without snare immunity stam or mag.
    Tbh id rather have them make dizzying swing instacast with lower damage, to give sorcs and dks a good spammable.
    Edited by Firstmep on January 30, 2018 5:34PM
  • BohnT
    BohnT
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    There are no stamdks left to feel anything :trollface:

    The nerf sucks but on the other hand if they start nerfing all snares the gameplay experience will be better across the board, still not for stamdk :cry:
  • Skoomah
    Skoomah
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    The main problem is that Stam DKs derive a lot of their damage from non-class skills. So when something else in the game gets nerfed, we feel it very hard. A lot of Stam DK identity comes from sets, non-class skills that get nerfed patch to patch. It's never enough to completely kill a class in one patch but over the course of several patches, if chips away at our competitiveness.
    Edited by Skoomah on January 30, 2018 6:03PM
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
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    Firstmep wrote: »
    You do realis that they only nerfing the snare duration, you can reapply it just as easily.
    Fighting dks like that is one of the most cancerous experience in pvp i can imagine.
    In fact heroic slash spammers are the primary reason i dont play any spec without snare immunity stam or mag.
    Tbh id rather have them make dizzying swing instacast with lower damage, to give sorcs and dks a good spammable.

    I can understand your point of view, and I won’t argue it. Dueling a Stam Dk on a magblade would be very hard, due to forward momentum synergizing with the snare of heroic slash. It allows me to stay mobile, while maintaining a strong snare on you. Classes have its perks and demons. The issue is, the Dk has had a handful of nerfs that widen the gap of class potential between us and stamblades/stamden. In a dueling situation, the class is “ok” because we have just enough sustain for a 1v1 situation(that goes for all classes lol). Put us in a outnumbered situation? We just don’t have the burst potential of other classes. We have “ok” sustain, but with the nerfs in the past years, it gets harder and harder. We already have a small damage window(due to a lack of spammable dps, and highly counter played dizzy swing), and are having to sacrifice that already small amount for sustain. It’s honestly a vicious cycle. So yes, a “little nerf” to heroic slash affects us greatly
  • Vaoh
    Vaoh
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    Snares are still far too strong in PvP.

    You know that something is extremely wrong when Mag builds are slotting 2H for Forward Momentum lol. At this point you can’t survive unless you have some form of snare immunity. DKs, Templars, and Wardens suffer the most.

    Two solutions exist imo.....

    First would be to remove snares from skills that have no business snaring. Skills like Aspect of Terror, Sun Fire, Hidden Blade, etc.

    Second solution would be to add Snare Immunity, much like how CC Immunity is implemented. These days not having Forward Momentum/Shuffle/Elusive Must makes you an extremely easy kill. Maybe there could be a Major/Minor system with both debuffs having separate immunity cooldowns? Idk what the best way to go about it is.

    Then again I find so much wrong in the PvP nowadays from the perspective of solo play that maybe I’m just too biased to speak on this. Yet even in zerg v zerg fights, you are essensially snared 100% of the time unless using CC immunity skills.
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
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    Skoomah wrote: »
    The main problem is that Stam DKs derive a lot of their damage from non-class skills. So when something else in the game gets nerfed, we feel it very hard. A lot of Stam DK identity comes from sets, non-class skills that get nerfed patch to patch. It's never enough to completely kill a class in one patch but over the course of several patches, if chips away at our competitiveness.

    You couldn’t have said it better. My Dk has 3 s&B ability’s slotted with a s&B ulti. That’s 4 abilities lol.. it’s almost laughable at this point. I was very surprised no Stam Dk mentioned the nerf to heroic when it was rolled out. If you really think about it, it was a very hard hit to our class. We lost a 8 second window. That doesn’t just hit our burst potential, but our sustain as well.

  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    KingLogix wrote: »
    Calling a reduced snare from S&B a(n exclusive) nerf to DK's is a bit of a stretch.
    You know what’s really sad? The fact that a nerf to that ability is infact a nerf to the Stam Dk. Heroic slash is our jabs, Suprise attack, and subterranean assault. That is our “spammable dps”. We have to use that ability to line up a high counter play ability(dizzy swing). They reduced it by about 75-80%. That’s like reducing the fracture by 75-80% on Suprise attack. It wouldn’t hurt the stamblades all to much, because they already have a nice kit to work with, but you get the point.


    But if its ur spammable then its obviously not going change anything since you spam it and keep the snare up anw.
  • Zorgon_The_Revenged
    Zorgon_The_Revenged
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    Well as most stamdk's that I meet in PvP that use the skill tend to hit me every 4 seconds anyway.....

    I wouldn't complain if a 30-50% 4-6 second snare was used for all skills that have snares, with a short 70% snare only used for some of the ultimates. I hate snares anyway.
    Edited by Zorgon_The_Revenged on January 30, 2018 6:41PM
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    Calling a reduced snare from S&B a(n exclusive) nerf to DK's is a bit of a stretch.
    You know what’s really sad? The fact that a nerf to that ability is infact a nerf to the Stam Dk. Heroic slash is our jabs, Suprise attack, and subterranean assault. That is our “spammable dps”. We have to use that ability to line up a high counter play ability(dizzy swing). They reduced it by about 75-80%. That’s like reducing the fracture by 75-80% on Suprise attack. It wouldn’t hurt the stamblades all to much, because they already have a nice kit to work with, but you get the point.


    But if its ur spammable then its obviously not going change anything since you spam it and keep the snare up anw.

    I guess I have to alobarate on the forums... It’s my “spammable dps” in a sense that it is my only ability that I can hit to get dps(I sometimes run dizzy, but its high counterplay makes me unslot it), and to alobrate more I do not count dot, a spammable dps(Incase you were about to use that in your rebuttal). I don’t hit heroic in exactly 4 second increments. So yes, going from 12 seconds to 4 seconds is a lot when that’s your MAIN ability.

  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
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    Well as most stamdk's that I meet in PvP that use the skill tend to hit me every 4 seconds anyway.....

    I wouldn't complain if a 30-50% 4-6 second snare was used for all skills that have snares, with a short 70% snare only used for some of the ultimates. I hate snares anyway.
    You are right. In a 1v1 situation, I am more then positive I can get it off every 4 seconds. In a outnumbered situation? I’m not going to individually hit every opponent with a heroic slash in exactly 4 seconds increments. I’m asking for people to be open minded. Going from 12>8>6>4 seconds over time would have been good. They can gather feedback to see if it would have been good or not.
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
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    BohnT wrote: »
    There are no stamdks left to feel anything :trollface:

    The nerf sucks but on the other hand if they start nerfing all snares the gameplay experience will be better across the board, still not for stamdk :cry:

    With the Stam Dk already being lower then some of these others classes, over-the-board nerfs just keeps the gap the same, but our competiveness lowered.
  • Ragnarock41
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    I've given up on stamDK buffs. ZOS doesn't like us. Playerbase don't like us. nobody likes us.
    We are the poster child of heavy armor meta, we are the scapegoat.

    We got nerfed because indirect game mechanics made us strong, now those indirect mechanics are being addressed, yet we aren't.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on January 30, 2018 7:06PM
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
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    I've given up on stamDK buffs. ZOS doesn't like us. Playerbase don't like us. nobody likes us.
    We are the poster child of heavy armor meta, we are the scapegoat.

    Zos just ignores us.

    The player base just emphasizes on how we have “strong dots ”
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    KingLogix wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    Calling a reduced snare from S&B a(n exclusive) nerf to DK's is a bit of a stretch.
    You know what’s really sad? The fact that a nerf to that ability is infact a nerf to the Stam Dk. Heroic slash is our jabs, Suprise attack, and subterranean assault. That is our “spammable dps”. We have to use that ability to line up a high counter play ability(dizzy swing). They reduced it by about 75-80%. That’s like reducing the fracture by 75-80% on Suprise attack. It wouldn’t hurt the stamblades all to much, because they already have a nice kit to work with, but you get the point.


    But if its ur spammable then its obviously not going change anything since you spam it and keep the snare up anw.

    I guess I have to alobarate on the forums... It’s my “spammable dps” in a sense that it is my only ability that I can hit to get dps(I sometimes run dizzy, but its high counterplay makes me unslot it), and to alobrate more I do not count dot, a spammable dps(Incase you were about to use that in your rebuttal). I don’t hit heroic in exactly 4 second increments. So yes, going from 12 seconds to 4 seconds is a lot when that’s your MAIN ability.

    Heroic slash in general is considered a spammable DPS ability. This means a hit every 4 seconds isnt something hard to do. Its a huge snare attached to a spammable ability. Having to work a bit to keep up that powerful debuff isnt exactly bad.
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    KingLogix wrote: »
    I've given up on stamDK buffs. ZOS doesn't like us. Playerbase don't like us. nobody likes us.
    We are the poster child of heavy armor meta, we are the scapegoat.

    Zos just ignores us.

    The player base just emphasizes on how we have “strong dots ”

    Funny when you think that best dot builds are stamsorc/stamblades with dual wield- axe bleeds.

  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    Calling a reduced snare from S&B a(n exclusive) nerf to DK's is a bit of a stretch.
    You know what’s really sad? The fact that a nerf to that ability is infact a nerf to the Stam Dk. Heroic slash is our jabs, Suprise attack, and subterranean assault. That is our “spammable dps”. We have to use that ability to line up a high counter play ability(dizzy swing). They reduced it by about 75-80%. That’s like reducing the fracture by 75-80% on Suprise attack. It wouldn’t hurt the stamblades all to much, because they already have a nice kit to work with, but you get the point.


    But if its ur spammable then its obviously not going change anything since you spam it and keep the snare up anw.

    I guess I have to alobarate on the forums... It’s my “spammable dps” in a sense that it is my only ability that I can hit to get dps(I sometimes run dizzy, but its high counterplay makes me unslot it), and to alobrate more I do not count dot, a spammable dps(Incase you were about to use that in your rebuttal). I don’t hit heroic in exactly 4 second increments. So yes, going from 12 seconds to 4 seconds is a lot when that’s your MAIN ability.

    Heroic slash in general is considered a spammable DPS ability. This means a hit every 4 seconds isnt something hard to do. Its a huge snare attached to a spammable ability. Having to work a bit to keep up that powerful debuff isnt exactly bad.

    Sure the nerf doesn’t “destroy” the class. In the big picture, it’s just another nerf on top of the handful we have already recieved. Now that we have a handful of nerfs.. little nerfs like these do hurt us(especially because our spammable dps isn’t even in our own skill lines). When you put 3k hours into a class, you KNOW exactly what affects the class, and what doesn’t. I’m asking for you to be open minded.. let’s say your class has gone through extensive nerfs(as much as the Dk), and your skill bar consist of 3-4 abilities from a weapon line. And 1 of those abilities got a 80% reduction to its utilite. Would you still feel the same as far as where you stand? My intentions are not to fire shots, but for people to be open minded on why us Stam DK’s complain about “little” changes like these.
  • KingLogix
    KingLogix
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    KingLogix wrote: »
    I've given up on stamDK buffs. ZOS doesn't like us. Playerbase don't like us. nobody likes us.
    We are the poster child of heavy armor meta, we are the scapegoat.

    Zos just ignores us.

    The player base just emphasizes on how we have “strong dots ”

    Funny when you think that best dot builds are stamsorc/stamblades with dual wield- axe bleeds.

    Ohhh the irony... it makes me want to remove Suprise attack and subterranean and replace them with dots. After they get nerfed from there, I will just let them know they have “dots”.

  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    KingLogix wrote: »
    KingLogix wrote: »
    I've given up on stamDK buffs. ZOS doesn't like us. Playerbase don't like us. nobody likes us.
    We are the poster child of heavy armor meta, we are the scapegoat.

    Zos just ignores us.

    The player base just emphasizes on how we have “strong dots ”

    Funny when you think that best dot builds are stamsorc/stamblades with dual wield- axe bleeds.

    Ohhh the irony... it makes me want to remove Suprise attack and subterranean and replace them with dots. After they get nerfed from there, I will just let them know they have “dots”.

    then you can be like ''but you guys have dots....''
  • Zer0oo
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    Wow there are actually people on the forum defending the snare on this skill. Even without the snare this skill will be extremely strong: minor herorism and main are extrem strong de/buff, it still has the snare on it but not for such an insane time and does damage.
    Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus
    - Update 23
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Building a DW/DW Stam DK I immediately noticed one big issue with stam DK:

    td54ccxe6eva.png


    Even the last few ticks of Venomous Claw are outperformed by Blood Craze.

    Granted, this is with Master DW, but still... one would expect atleast the last few ticks to deal more damage.


    I think they should give the skill some additional effect that benefits PvP DKs, it feels very weak at the moment. I mean, why would I ever slot Venomous Claw and deal less damage (that doesn't ignore mitigation like bleeds) compared to Blood Craze. And that's omitting the Blood Craze healing entirely (or Rending Slashes snare which is 50% compared to 30% Warmth passive if you go with that morph).


    But yeah, those issues aside I think this patch is buffing sDK both directly & indirectly tbh.

    Buffs:
    • Steel Tornado undodgeable - this makes DW sooo much better. Cleave also undodgeable for those who want to try Master Brawler on sDK... (haven't tested yet).
    • Off Balance changes, ability to stun with Power Lash (or just medium weave). Frees up two skill slots: your CC (you can use Tactician+Shuffle/dodge roll->Power Lash for stun) & Vigor (because that Power Lash heals for more than Vigor even on stam builds).

    Remains to be seen how viable they'll be.
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
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