Regarding Miats and other Notification add ons with update 17

josh.lackey_ESO · January 2018

I think the proper solution is to add attack and charging notification to the base game UI so console players can also benefit.

Jade1986 · January 2018

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

I think the proper solution is to add attack and charging notification to the base game UI so console players can also benefit.

I actually would not be opposed to this in theory. If they added them to targets you were targeting, that would actually be an improvement in my book.

kookster · January 2018

I think they should have clear audible sound queues for all ranged skills so miat's pvp alerts addon wouldn't be needed. But as is there arent. Some ranged attacks have audio queues when they target you, like overload light attacks. They just need to do that for all skills. Also make them louder when its targeting you, softer for when its someone else. That is if they want you to actually know... or they want us just guessing when were being targeted. But like @Dorrino said, they haven't made a clear statement on what they intend pvp queues to be.

That being said, miat's pvp alerts 3d pins are smexy.

Hurika · January 2018

So folks understand, changing the API to block the addon functionality is not just about what they want the game to be (unfortunately) so even if it's not changed, it doesn't mean they want that functionality. Other factors have to be considered when a company is for profit.

Time/Resource cost to implement (developers, QA<laugh here>, etc). This includes unintended changes - what else gets impacted by modifying an internal API along with the time to make the change in the first place.
Time not spent on features that generate revenue - Spend 200 resource hours on this which likely won't generate income or spend 200 hours coding things for the crown store that people will pay money for.

Remember, they don't have to make you happy, just not pissed enough to leave. And make money in the process.

So to be clear, what they "want" and what they "deliver" aren't always the same. Not delivering or fixing something doesn't mean they don't want to - could be too hard, costly, etc.

Dorrino · January 2018

As @kookster rightfully said, instead of blocking an addon that aims at improving combat cues, they'd rather put efforts into actually improving those cues in the world.

Currently almost nothing works in a reliable manner. You can't trust you that you will hear or see an attack. You can't trust the visuals the target has (for instance cc immunity indicators). Almost anything regarding combat cues and pvp is unreliable at best and non-existent otherwise.

Letho2469 · January 2018

Dorrino wrote: »

As @kookster rightfully said, instead of blocking an addon that aims at improving combat cues, they'd rather put efforts into actually improving those cues in the world.

Currently almost nothing works in a reliable manner. You can't trust you that you will hear or see an attack. You can't trust the visuals the target has (for instance cc immunity indicators). Almost anything regarding combat cues and pvp is unreliable at best and non-existent otherwise.

^THIS.

Ranger209 wrote: »

Speaking for myself only, I prefer to rely on my own ability to perceive the action around me, rather than some warning system alerting me to the fact that there is an incoming attack heading my way. The cues in game are more natural and immersive than icons and system warning sounds.

Thing is, your perception will fail you in massive combat situations for two reasons: a) As Dorrino stated above, the combat clues do not work properly and it gets even worse in mass combat situations. b) the human brain is unable to process a flood of acustic/visual information, which is just the case in group combat.

All rants and crying won't change anything, as ZOS has (at least to me) implicitly proven that they are not interested in making the game better. They just have a platform for earning money using the crown store.

Just in case @ZOS_JessicaFolsom should be reading: Just deactivate EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT in pvp situations (Cyrodiil, duels and battlegrounds) and fully open it's restrictions in a pve setting, because (unlike pvp) pve is more about cooperation than competition and having to suffer from changes made because of PvP sucks big time.

Vapirko · January 2018

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Why do people continue arguing with Dorrino? Or anyone that supports his addon? He’s going off the simple fact that ZOS has released NO official statement on what is allowed in addons. But this is a big mistake and they really need to do this. Because it leads to this kind of thing happening.

On the other hand, it’s very clear that they are trying to restrict the most prominent function of Miats, and there’s really no arguing that.

But until ZOS releases an official statement on what is and isn’t allowed via addons, Dorrino and others will continue to put forward arguments in a gray area which anyone with common sense should clearly be able to see is taking advantage of the situation, but that nonetheless exist because of ZOS’ silence on the matter.

Paul Sage answered Miat’s questions regarding the matter back in 2014. But forces unknown to us subverted and ultimately did away with Sage’s decision.

I’m sorry to hear that. Unfortunately that still leaves us needing an up to date, concrete list of what is and is not acceptable despite what may be possible.

Ranger209 · January 2018

Letho2469 wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Speaking for myself only, I prefer to rely on my own ability to perceive the action around me, rather than some warning system alerting me to the fact that there is an incoming attack heading my way. The cues in game are more natural and immersive than icons and system warning sounds.

Thing is, your perception will fail you in massive combat situations for two reasons: a) As Dorrino stated above, the combat clues do not work properly and it gets even worse in mass combat situations. b) the human brain is unable to process a flood of acustic/visual information, which is just the case in group combat.

That is exactly the way it should be. You should only be able to process what you can naturally process. If it is one on one or 4 on 4 you are going to process most of that information. If it is 60 on 60 you are not. Why should a person be able to know an attack is coming at them from someone they don't even know is their. Large scale combat is chaos. It is supposed to be chaotic. Super human, all knowing awareness, while it may be handy, isn't natural. To get a warning every time someone in a crowd of 60 is targeting you specifically among another crowd of 60 isn't natural or right. When a person doesn't know where an attack is coming from, yet they can identify that attack and react to it, well that's just next level perception. You are no longer countering a combatant you are countering an attack or an ability.

The other thing is that everyone has the same limitations of awareness and are on the same playing field. When some people use the Neo add-on and others don't, those that do have a distinct, unnatural advantage over those who do not.

DDuke · January 2018

Ranger209 wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Speaking for myself only, I prefer to rely on my own ability to perceive the action around me, rather than some warning system alerting me to the fact that there is an incoming attack heading my way. The cues in game are more natural and immersive than icons and system warning sounds.

Thing is, your perception will fail you in massive combat situations for two reasons: a) As Dorrino stated above, the combat clues do not work properly and it gets even worse in mass combat situations. b) the human brain is unable to process a flood of acustic/visual information, which is just the case in group combat.

That is exactly the way it should be. You should only be able to process what you can naturally process. If it is one on one or 4 on 4 you are going to process most of that information. If it is 60 on 60 you are not. Why should a person be able to know an attack is coming at them from someone they don't even know is their. Large scale combat is chaos. It is supposed to be chaotic. Super human, all knowing awareness, while it may be handy, isn't natural. To get a warning every time someone in a crowd of 60 is targeting you specifically among another crowd of 60 isn't natural or right. When a person doesn't know where an attack is coming from, yet they can identify that attack and react to it, well that's just next level perception. You are no longer countering a combatant you are countering an attack or an ability.

The other thing is that everyone has the same limitations of awareness and are on the same playing field. When some people use the Neo add-on and others don't, those that do have a distinct, unnatural advantage over those who do not.

Yep, and not everything even needs to have a cue - having those elements of surprise in a game makes it more interesting.

Letho2469 · January 2018

Still the issue remains, that most combat clues do not work properly in mass fights! Ever encountered the case when a zerg is so big that the sound stopped working? Or when sounds are heavily delayed? I understand your point and frankly I do agree, sadly ESO does not support it from a technical POV.

People attacking you from a distance behind should not be noticed by you, totally agreed!

BUT: Your 'character' is in the middle of the action, he will easily see, if an opponent he is currently 1vs1 is preparing an attack, becaus he can focus his perception onto him. Your character will also feel if an energy surge is flowing through his body. We can only get a hint by glowing hands and character animations that are mostly covered by other characters and/or their effects. So ESO cannot properly moderate character perception <> player perception, at least not outside of 1st person camera view (where we have the problem of realistic head movement and awareness through edges of the eye).

And that is the reason why I think the game needs AT LEAST! buff and debuff trackers, even in PvP: to emulate and moderate your character's perception.

kookster · January 2018

It would be nice if ZOS actually added combat queues to all attacks. They could do it as simply as making the sounds of that attack louder when its targeted at you, like they did for overload. For things like dizzy swing they would have to add a sound cause currently there isnt anything. Now some attacks that wouldnt really be worth/reasonable to do for like light attacks. But I think all hard hitting skills that are channelled/cast time/flying should. But honestly I doubt this will happen, at least any time soon.

The_Brosteen · January 2018

Dorrino wrote: »

As @kookster rightfully said, instead of blocking an addon that aims at improving combat cues, they'd rather put efforts into actually improving those cues in the world.

Currently almost nothing works in a reliable manner. You can't trust you that you will hear or see an attack. You can't trust the visuals the target has (for instance cc immunity indicators). Almost anything regarding combat cues and pvp is unreliable at best and non-existent otherwise.

You're think reactively when you should be thinking proactively. Which is why you think it's necessary.

Dorrino · January 2018

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

As @kookster rightfully said, instead of blocking an addon that aims at improving combat cues, they'd rather put efforts into actually improving those cues in the world.

Currently almost nothing works in a reliable manner. You can't trust you that you will hear or see an attack. You can't trust the visuals the target has (for instance cc immunity indicators). Almost anything regarding combat cues and pvp is unreliable at best and non-existent otherwise.

You're think reactively when you should be thinking proactively. Which is why you think it's necessary.

So why pure proactive thinking is supposed to replace reactive thinking? Why would we have any visuals at all if you can just proactively anticipate everything that is going on?

Why can't we rely on the limited visuals that we have?:)

I can definitely play without relying on attacks cues whatsoever. I know what will each class do in each situation.

The question is why would i want to be left with only that? Why would i want not to perceive stuff that affects me? Why such a desire to play blind?

Hurika · January 2018

Perceive what has and is happening. (Understanding)
Anticipate what hasn't happened yet. (Experience)

Both are needed - one shouldn't take the place of the other. Moving things/actions from one category to another is where problems come in.

Dorrino · January 2018

Hurika wrote: »

Perceive what has and is happening. (Understanding)
Anticipate what hasn't happened yet. (Experience)

Both are needed - one shouldn't take the place of the other. Moving things/actions from one category to another is where problems come in.

Precisely. So why some people want to shift the balance to anticipation?

Most people in cyro already can't anticipate stuff. Many people that argue in favor of anticipation are themselves incapable to play on that level.

I'd understand if the best of the best would for some reason support this approach. Some of them might want to have even higher advantage over the rest, but gankers? Or some names in this thread that i recognize and fought before? They need these cues much more than me, for instance.

This is the thing that puzzles me the most. People failing at anticipation arguing in favor of anticipation.

Solinur · January 2018

I don't think a statement from ZOS would be a good solution for this issue. It would just further complicate addon developement and ZOS would need to keep track of what they said as well for all future discussions. Also, how would new Addon Authors get aware of such statements?
Even then, addon functionality would still be possible, it probably wouldn't be public anymore, allowing only a few ppl to have access to it while the rest is wondering if someone evading an attack was just lucky or using one of those functionalities.
So the only conclusive thing that can be done is to limit the API in a way that makes any unwanted functionality impossible.
The tricky part is that this might affect a lot of other addons, but at least they can limit their changes to PvP.
However given the complexity of the matter, It needs time.

Meanwhile I nervously check for API changes to see if one of my addons is affected

imenace · January 2018

Addons

Made additional changes to the API to better restrict the ability for addons to display combat events prior to your character being impacted.

looks like we won boys ( maybe )

bigdavid11b16_ESO · January 2018

dorrinos a god. he should be working for zos. i bet this game would be fixed in NO TIME

Jade1986 · January 2018

imenace wrote: »

Addons

Made additional changes to the API to better restrict the ability for addons to display combat events prior to your character being impacted.

looks like we won boys ( maybe )

Can anyone do a test? Or are addons disabled in the pts?

imenace · January 2018

Jade1986 wrote: »

imenace wrote: »

Addons

Made additional changes to the API to better restrict the ability for addons to display combat events prior to your character being impacted.

looks like we won boys ( maybe )

Can anyone do a test? Or are addons disabled in the pts?

miats hasnt been updated for pts yet so no way to test, unless ofc dorrino comes and tells us if ZOS actually restricted everything correctly.

davey1107 · January 2018

Just a note that while you were all standing on the porch yelling st each other over Miata, I sniped amd killed you all. Thanks for the AP! Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!