Regarding Miats and other Notification add ons with update 17

Malamar1229

People put a fence up to keep others out of their yards, it doesn't mean you can find a loose board to climb through.

Ranger209

Dorrino wrote: »

Now, the patch notes are not a declaration of intention. Patch notes are declaration of actions. Gina might mess them up, programmers might mess up their message, but in any case patch notes tell us what is done, instead of what is intended to be done.

This is entirely false. They are exactly a declaration of intention, which may or may not actually end up with the intended result. Case in point. Patch notes say "Upon entering Cyrodiil there will no longer be lag, we have implemented xyz and have reduced the lag to 0." You enter Cyrodiil and there is more lag than there was prior to patch. They thought they fixed it, it was there intention to fix it or they wouldn't have proclaimed it as such, but it didn't fully deliver as intended.

The fact that they are looking into part 2 and possibly other scenarios they may have overlooked only reinforces what there intention is. If they catch it all and addons truly don't register anything until after it lands then they will have delivered on their declared intention. The code itself is the action, declared or not. The patch note statement is the declaration.

Anyone with common sense can see what they are attempting, but someone looking for loopholes will try to stir up ambiguity into something that is otherwise quite clear.

kyle.wilson

Jade1986

badmojo wrote: »

@Jade1986 What exactly did you want from Dorrino? It seems like you want him to respond to the patch notes by modifying his addon to remove all notifications of attacks. Do you not see why that would be bad for ESO? His addon needs to be prevented from working by ZOS modifying the API, otherwise private addons will continue to exploit any weakness in the system.

The guy is nice enough to come into this thread and show ZOS where their weaknesses are and why the changes are not adaquate, and insted of a thank you, you guys continue to attack him like he is the enemy.

You get so emotional you forget to be rational.

I literally posted what he said in a previous thread, in the OP to bring it to the attention of the devs, which I -already- thanked him for. And for which I already got a response. Please read the whole thread before making assumptions, kthnx.

I do know I get emotional though, and trust me, this is not one of those times

Dorrino

Ranger209 wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Now, the patch notes are not a declaration of intention. Patch notes are declaration of actions. Gina might mess them up, programmers might mess up their message, but in any case patch notes tell us what is done, instead of what is intended to be done.

This is entirely false. They are exactly a declaration of intention, which may or may not actually end up with the intended result. Case in point. Patch notes say "Upon entering Cyrodiil there will no longer be lag, we have implemented xyz and have reduced the lag to 0." You enter Cyrodiil and there is more lag than there was prior to patch. They thought they fixed it, it was there intention to fix it or they wouldn't have proclaimed it as such, but it didn't fully deliver as intended.

They might or might not had the intention to fix. This is not reflected in the patch notes. In the patch notes they report about a result of their internal activities. Regardless of their intention.

If by changing some internal combat system they realized that the lag might improve, they will still report it in the patch notes, even though the original intention in this iteration cycle was not to fix the lag.

Patch notes is a special type of document that doesn't contain intentions, unless specified otherwise. That's why we have a separate element of patch notes called 'Dev comment' whose goal is precisely to outline the intentions, that were lacking from the patch notes otherwise.

Ranger209 wrote: »

The fact that they are looking into part 2 and possibly other scenarios they may have overlooked only reinforces what there intention is.

They responded that indeed they observe that this part of the patch notes doesn't seem to correspond to any actual change.

They didn't say anything about overlooking specifically. This might be an overlook, this might be a patch note mistake. We don't know (yet).

Ranger209 wrote: »

If they catch it all and addons truly don't register anything until after it lands then they will have delivered on their declared intention. The code itself is the action, declared or not. The patch note statement is the declaration.

It's not about 'catching anything'. API doesn't work like this. It's about a quite drastic change of how the game reports buffs/debuffs to the UI. Until we get a proper clarification, i assume they won't do that just for some addon, that have been functioning for more than a year.

I might be wrong, but there's no way to know now.

Ranger209 wrote: »

Anyone with common sense can see what they are attempting, but someone looking for loopholes will try to stir up ambiguity into something that is otherwise quite clear.

The fabled 'anyone with common sense' would see that they messed up the patch notes, i'm not sure why this is not clear for some people.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

Edit: I'll even leave this mod edit. If mods say this is baiting then what can i do.

Ranger209

Patch notes

Addons
Addons will now only know about attacks that target you after they hit you in PvP areas.
Developer Comments:
Spoilerhide
Addons will no longer receive BEGIN combat events in PvP areas if they target the player, and come from a hostile source


jade1986

2. Those that rely on ACTION_RESULT_EFFECT_GAINED result type of EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT


zosGinaBruno

Thanks for the additional info, all. Confirming we've seen this and are looking into it.



So the Patch notes state "Addons will now only know about attacks that target you after they hit you in PvP areas."
They would not make this statement if it wasn't there intention. The spoiler tells that Begin combat events will no longer be received in PvP areas. This was supposed to achieve that goal. Not sure what internal activities you think this reports, I assume internal testing, but the internal activities may have been nothing more than a conversation, a theory, and a change in code to make that happen.

Then from what I gather you stated that ACTION_RESULT combat events could still get through to an addon, which it appears are the worst offenders from reading Jade's reiteration of that comment above. For this I applaud you.

There response was, "Oh, thanks we will look into that." If they prove to allow someone to know when they are specifically being targeted with a projectile before they are hit with the projectile, then this will be addressed as well to align with their stated intention.

This begs the next question. Are there other types of combat events for attacks that are neither projectile or channeled, that should not get through to an addon as well? It seems these are the two you utilized, maybe there are others, I don't know. If so, these should be addressed as well. While there may not be enough time in most cases to react even if you were notified of an incoming attack from even a melee light attack, this information should not get through to an intended target via addon, or any other means, other than in game code written cues that are there for this express reason by design.

As far as an official statement, I'm not sure what that is even worth. In my mind there stance on what they will and won't allow in regards to the API will always be a fluid thing that will adapt as people create addons that do things that they see as detrimental to the game. They could give an official statement, but it could change again in 3 months, 6 months, a year depending on what the future brings. People always do unexpected and unforeseen things in games like this, whether its finding a way to exploit content, or the API, or some gold making method that's unintended. We're humans, it's what we do, and when we do it needs to be addressed and corrected for the good of the whole. I think their official statement is they reserve the right to......

Dorrino

@Ranger209

Ranger209 wrote: »

So the Patch notes state "Addons will now only know about attacks that target you after they hit you in PvP areas."
They would not make this statement if it wasn't there intention.

They could make this message for various reasons including multiple human errors.

Which is the case is not clear from the messages that we have.

I'm adding a piece of info, that getting rid of effect gained events is not easy at all (especially compared to begin events). because they describe a buff you get. There're multiple other ways to access this information. Getting rid of all that require a lot of manual coding that in my opinion (i might be wrong) is not worth the effect.

Ranger209 wrote: »

The spoiler tells that Begin combat events will no longer be received in PvP areas. This was supposed to achieve that goal. Not sure what internal activities you think this reports, I assume internal testing, but the internal activities may have been nothing more than a conversation, a theory, and a change in code to make that happen.

Then from what I gather you stated that ACTION_RESULT combat events could still get through to an addon, which it appears are the worst offenders from reading Jade's reiteration of that comment above. For this I applaud you.

They disabled begin events. This is easy. The phrase about 'addons only know about attacks after they hit the player' might have easily meant a re-phrasal of the previous sentence (no begin events).

Since begin events are explicitly outlined and effect gained ones are not - this only support the interpretation above. I.e. effect gained are unaffected.

Ranger209 wrote: »

There response was, "Oh, thanks we will look into that." If they prove to allow someone to know when they are specifically being targeted with a projectile before they are hit with the projectile, then this will be addressed as well to align with their stated intention.

Gina obviously is not an expert in lua programming. She's been told some technical info, she forwarded it to the appropriate team and informed us about that.

And again, there's no intention stated. They explicitly mentioned begin events. They got rid of begin events.

They didn't mention other events, they left other events intact.

Ranger209 wrote: »

This begs the next question. Are there other types of combat events for attacks that are neither projectile or channeled, that should not get through to an addon as well?

Until we get a clear statement about their pvp design intent - ANYTHING should get through to addons. We don't have a reference point besides our personal preferences, that, well, differ:)

Ranger209 wrote: »

It seems these are the two you utilized, maybe there are others, I don't know.

I do.

Ranger209 wrote: »

If so, these should be addressed as well.

Only after the statement and in accordance to the statement.

Ranger209 wrote: »

While there may not be enough time in most cases to react even if you were notified of an incoming attack from even a melee light attack, this information should not get through to an intended target via addon, or any other means, other than in game code written cues that are there for this express reason by design.

I disagree. It should and it does. See above about the statement and the lack of such.

Ranger209 wrote: »

As far as an official statement, I'm not sure what that is even worth.

Then you will always have no ground for arguing what should and what should be in the addons.

Ranger209 wrote: »

In my mind there stance on what they will and won't allow in regards to the API will always be a fluid thing that will adapt as people create addons that do things that they see as detrimental to the game.

That's why you release the current statement. That reflects the current state of their design intention. Design changes - you issue another statement. As easy as it sounds.

Ranger209 wrote: »

They could give an official statement, but it could change again in 3 months, 6 months, a year depending on what the future brings. People always do unexpected and unforeseen things in games like this, whether its finding a way to exploit content, or the API, or some gold making method that's unintended. We're humans, it's what we do, and when we do it needs to be addressed and corrected for the good of the whole. I think their official statement is they reserve the right to......

Yep, they will keep releasing those. Otherwise people (being people) will keep becoming hysterical about cheating/not cheating stuff.

I can and did explain what addons are about and what do they have to do with cheating (nothing). But who am i? That's the reason we need such a statement. To calm down and reassure people. And let addon makers happily publish their creations without huge public vitriol.

Koensol

Vapirko wrote: »

Why do people continue arguing with Dorrino? Or anyone that supports his addon? He’s going off the simple fact that ZOS has released NO official statement on what is allowed in addons. But this is a big mistake and they really need to do this. Because it leads to this kind of thing happening.

On the other hand, it’s very clear that they are trying to restrict the most prominent function of Miats, and there’s really no arguing that.

But until ZOS releases an official statement on what is and isn’t allowed via addons, Dorrino and others will continue to put forward arguments in a gray area which anyone with common sense should clearly be able to see is taking advantage of the situation, but that nonetheless exist because of ZOS’ silence on the matter.

This is what I have been thinking the whole time. From all the previous threads it should be clear by now that he wouldn't recognize the alphabet if one letter was missing. It quite literally is the most pointless discussion ever.

The important part is that ZOS has been made aware of the current situation and is looking into it. Let us hope they can terminate the job properly this time.

Jade1986

Koensol wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Why do people continue arguing with Dorrino? Or anyone that supports his addon? He’s going off the simple fact that ZOS has released NO official statement on what is allowed in addons. But this is a big mistake and they really need to do this. Because it leads to this kind of thing happening.

On the other hand, it’s very clear that they are trying to restrict the most prominent function of Miats, and there’s really no arguing that.

But until ZOS releases an official statement on what is and isn’t allowed via addons, Dorrino and others will continue to put forward arguments in a gray area which anyone with common sense should clearly be able to see is taking advantage of the situation, but that nonetheless exist because of ZOS’ silence on the matter.

This is what I have been thinking the whole time. From all the previous threads it should be clear by now that he wouldn't recognize the alphabet if one letter was missing. It quite literally is the most pointless discussion ever.

The important part is that ZOS has been made aware of the current situation and is looking into it. Let us hope they can terminate the job properly this time.

Unless its Dorrino providing feedback like he did to me originally, I will no longer reply to him. It becomes a constant bait fest with him, where he feigns innocence. To him, his addon is awesome, anyone who is negatively effected by it be damned.

Zer0oo

I like his addon and if you think how well they did fix things in the past i think it will work for at 2 more patches.



Also if you want to try to fix it partially zos could remove the gap closer snare .

Kolache

lol I thought it was pretty obvious that ZOS was aiming for players relying on info/cues other than addons to tell them when to dodge/block with this change.

Who knew their true motives could be so much more complicated? What's the deeper meaning here? What's the bigger picture? Ahhhhh I'm just kidding, there isn't one. They just want players to dodge fireballs because they see a big fireball is flying at their head.

Ranger209

Dorrino wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

They could give an official statement, but it could change again in 3 months, 6 months, a year depending on what the future brings. People always do unexpected and unforeseen things in games like this, whether its finding a way to exploit content, or the API, or some gold making method that's unintended. We're humans, it's what we do, and when we do it needs to be addressed and corrected for the good of the whole. I think their official statement is they reserve the right to......

Yep, they will keep releasing those. Otherwise people (being people) will keep becoming hysterical about cheating/not cheating stuff.

I can and did explain what addons are about and what do they have to do with cheating (nothing). But who am i? That's the reason we need such a statement. To calm down and reassure people. And let addon makers happily publish their creations without huge public vitriol.

An official statement from them isn't going to change that. If people perceive something as cheating or an unfair advantage and a critical mass of vocal dissenters is reached then ZOS will have to act on it. An official statement isn't going to settle people down if they feel they are being wronged. They will push for changes to the official statement. You seem to want an official statement so that you can use it as some ground to stand on for argument's sake. It won't matter. Ever see a nerf sorc thread? Nerf Miat's threads will still exist regardless of official statements if you continue to put things in it that alert people to incoming attacks. Too many people think that is wrong regardless of ZOS's official opinion on that and do not want to play a game that allows that sort of thing.

DDuke

Dorrino wrote:

I'm a kind of player that happen to be considered one of the best stamblades NA. Some think i'm the best, but i'd argue that Kodi might still win by a small margin. Sorry for the pitch.

Dorrino wrote:

pieratsos wrote:

Situational awareness, positioning and paying attention are part of player skill. The addon takes away that. Again, its that simple.

Mistakes not getting punished is the reason why PVP is so bad. You can correct your mistakes. You made a mistake and you took the hit, cc or whatever but you are still alive. You react and get urself back in the fight. Thats also player skill and thats how you correct mistakes. Not by an addon telling you the mistake you did so you can react as if it never happened.

And i would insist that if an addon correct mistakes on the verge of human perception we need more and better addons like this, because there're some limits to perception you can't overcome.

It stops being 'ill use an addon instead of learning' and instead becomes 'i'll use an addon to perceive something i wouldn't be able to perceive otherwise due to limitations of the default ui'.

It's not about being bad. It's about being better.

Dorrino wrote:

DDuke wrote:

Cool, can you make me an addon that allows me to see behind walls? I'd like to enhance my perception.

If ZOS decided to provide this option i'd definitely would write an addon for that.

Stop trying to have an intelligent conversation (as amusing as it can be) with this person - never going to happen.

Ranger209

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote:

I'm a kind of player that happen to be considered one of the best stamblades NA. Some think i'm the best, but i'd argue that Kodi might still win by a small margin. Sorry for the pitch.

Dorrino wrote:

pieratsos wrote:

Situational awareness, positioning and paying attention are part of player skill. The addon takes away that. Again, its that simple.

Mistakes not getting punished is the reason why PVP is so bad. You can correct your mistakes. You made a mistake and you took the hit, cc or whatever but you are still alive. You react and get urself back in the fight. Thats also player skill and thats how you correct mistakes. Not by an addon telling you the mistake you did so you can react as if it never happened.

And i would insist that if an addon correct mistakes on the verge of human perception we need more and better addons like this, because there're some limits to perception you can't overcome.

It stops being 'ill use an addon instead of learning' and instead becomes 'i'll use an addon to perceive something i wouldn't be able to perceive otherwise due to limitations of the default ui'.

It's not about being bad. It's about being better.

Dorrino wrote:

DDuke wrote:

Cool, can you make me an addon that allows me to see behind walls? I'd like to enhance my perception.

If ZOS decided to provide this option i'd definitely would write an addon for that.

Stop trying to have an intelligent conversation with this person (as amusing as it can be) - never going to happen.

So he thinks an addon that makes people psychic is the answer to limited human awareness and perception

ParaNostram

Goodness gracious ZOS should just contact that guy already and tell him to fix his addon if they can't make it work only in certain parameters. If his addon is doing something it isn't supposed to be able to do, which according to the language of the new patch it should't be able to do, they that is on him to fix and if he can't then I guess he shouldn't have the privilege of designing addons for ESO. He's only done damage to the game with his Miat addon.

ParaNostram

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

I did not see anything in any of the official patch discussion threads about this.

According to the patch notes attacks only are tracked with Miats and other addons AFTER the initial attack.

HOWEVER, according to Dorrino himself, that is not true with the pts.

Patch notes said

"Addons will now only know about attacks that target you after they hit you in PvP areas."
"Addons will no longer receive BEGIN combat events in PvP areas if they target the player, and come from a hostile source."

HOWEVER What Dorrino is telling us :

"The notifications consist of 2 distinct parts:

1. Those that rely on ACTION_RESULT_BEGIN result type of EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT.

These allow(-ed) to track the start of channeled (read cast time) abilities targeted at the player.

Examples: start of snipe, ambush, dizzying swing, dark flare, all heavy attacks etc single target channels.

The addon show(-ed) those as an icon that is being filled up from the bottom.

This part was explicitly disabled as per the patch notes (and limited personal testing).

2. Those that rely on ACTION_RESULT_EFFECT_GAINED result type of EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT.

These track the moment a single target projectile is fired against the player.

Examples: crystal frag, snipe again, flame reach, assassin's will etc.

The addon shows them as a pop up notification with dark background that quickly fades out. It is accompanied with a sound.

This part has nothing to do with the part 1 and was not affected in any shape of form in this update both in the patch notes and in testing.

So what exactly will be different after the update goes live:

You won't see:
1. heavy attacks of any sort,
2. ambush and dizzying swing before they land,
3. start of snipes, dark flares, crystal frags.

You will see:
All ranged attacks when they fire. Including snipes, flares and frags.

In the result dizzying swings will be easier to land. Ambush from stealth will be easier to land. Charged heavy attacks will be easier to land.

These are all the changes in the current update."

There clearly needs to be some clarification between the patch notes and what we are seeing in the pts currently. As it stands the two do -NOT- match up.

@ZOS_GinaBruno It would be appreciated if this could be clarified, because as has been argued in length, addons like these completely wipe out all viability of certain builds, and if the change is working as intended, then the patch notes need to be changed to reflect that.

Wait so they won’t see my dizzy swings but will still see all the other things I don’t like? @Dorrino please dm me a link to that PayPal, if this goes live I’m actually getting a buff by Miats. What an absolute legend in the pvp arena. Literally buffing the all melee slayers. What a god. And I can’t even be trolled by fake snipes or heavy .... what a buff @ZOS_GinaBruno ! Plz keep this change.
I’m begging you. It’s gonna get salty in cyro...

This is the personality encouraged by that silly addon, the "look at me I'll be a god with this addon that gives me an unfair advantage I can't wait till everyone around me is having less fun playing the game because of it!" This is what you encourage. If ZOS can't get that addon to work right, then Dorrino stop poisoning our community with this garbage and take some responsibility for your actions. Fix it yourself if ZOS won't.

Nebbles

ParaNostram wrote: »

that is on him to fix and if he can't then I guess he shouldn't have the privilege of designing addons for ESO. He's only done damage to the game with his Miat addon.

You do realise that if Miat's addon was to disappear tomorrow the underlying issue would not be solved. People would still run addons that do exactly the same, they just won't be know to as many people.

Kolache

Nebbles wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

that is on him to fix and if he can't then I guess he shouldn't have the privilege of designing addons for ESO. He's only done damage to the game with his Miat addon.

You do realise that if Miat's addon was to disappear tomorrow the underlying issue would not be solved. People would still run addons that do exactly the same, they just won't be know to as many people.

From the perspective of people that will use the same tools to balance the equation, I can see that. From the perspective of people that won't use these tools, this addon just meant even more people had that functionality.

Actually I wouldn't see either perspective as "wrong" personally, I just understand why some people aren't particularly thankful for it bringing the issue to light... and why some people are.

Jade1986

Nebbles wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

that is on him to fix and if he can't then I guess he shouldn't have the privilege of designing addons for ESO. He's only done damage to the game with his Miat addon.

You do realise that if Miat's addon was to disappear tomorrow the underlying issue would not be solved. People would still run addons that do exactly the same, they just won't be know to as many people.

Which is why its important for ZoS to fix it. Hopefully sooner than later.

Dorrino

Ranger209 wrote: »

An official statement from them isn't going to change that. If people perceive something as cheating or an unfair advantage and a critical mass of vocal dissenters is reached then ZOS will have to act on it.

Even if ZOS adds a similar funcitonality to the base UI on PC and on consoles?:) Or if ZOS state that they consider the notifications to match their vision for pvp?

Ranger209 wrote: »

An official statement isn't going to settle people down if they feel they are being wronged.

Is there any other reason that 'people feel wronged', besides that they can blame their pvp deficiencies on a scrapegoat like myself?:)

Ranger209 wrote: »

They will push for changes to the official statement. You seem to want an official statement so that you can use it as some ground to stand on for argument's sake.

I want for ZOS to take the responsibility for their game, including pvp, including the addons.

If their stance would be clear enough that these notifications are against their design on the game, the next addon version won't have these notifications. Additionally i'd discourage anybody to use those previous versions.

We wouldn't have this conversation in this case. Because my desires are irrelevant. I doesn't matter that i 'feel wrong', if the developing company disagrees. It's their game. The rules are up to them.

Ranger209 wrote: »

Ever see a nerf sorc thread?

And you know why these threads keep coming? Exactly. Because ZOS never participated in those threads. People still don't know what ZOS thinks about them mag sorcs. Nor stam wardens. Heavy armor in pvp. Broken nightblades cloak. etc.

ZOS don't participate in the forums discussions. That's why these threads keep coming. Not because 'sorcs op', but because 'sorcs op and ZOS didn't say otherwise'.

The forums are so hysterical, because people have problems and their 'Daddy' doesn't come out to comfort them. Or to say 'toughen up, kid'.

For the most part the forum members just shout at each other and cry for changes.

Would we have 'nerf Miat's' threads if a year ago we'd get a statement? Nope, because i wouldn't have had those notifications in my addons to start with. Regardless if API allows them or not.

Ranger209 wrote: »

Too many people think that is wrong regardless of ZOS's official opinion on that and do not want to play a game that allows that sort of thing.

Again, i'd love to hear why is that the case? All repeating explanations can be summed as 'it's not in the base ui and it gives advantage'. Ok, it's added to the base ui, what grounds for 'feeling wrong' people have now?

Ranger209

Dorrino wrote: »

Again, i'd love to hear why is that the case? All repeating explanations can be summed as 'it's not in the base ui and it gives advantage'. Ok, it's added to the base ui, what grounds for 'feeling wrong' people have now?

Speaking for myself only, I prefer to rely on my own ability to perceive the action around me, rather than some warning system alerting me to the fact that there is an incoming attack heading my way. The cues in game are more natural and immersive than icons and system warning sounds. I also am going to fail more to pick up on everything that is happening around me. Some attacks will hit m,e others I may see or hear and dodge or block them, but it is up to me then to pay attention to what is actually transpiring in the game vs. reacting to warnings about what is transpiring in the game. I have to improve my skill based on the ever changing field of battle, rather than to sharpen my response time to warning messages.

If other people are using an addon that does what yours does, they have a distinct advantage over my own natural perception because of the early warning system and the alerts they get. When I am in a 20 on 20 fight and attacking people from range it is always easy to tell someone who is using your addon and is proficient with it as they are dodge rolling every attack I send their way as soon as it is sent. It is almost like instead of pressing an attack I am actually pressing dodge roll for them. It is quite the lovely ballet, but takes the soul out of the game for me. So you are forced to either, "If you can't beat em join em", suck it up in spite of it all, or just enjoy the PvE content if it becomes to frustrating.

I would liken it to playing pacman with an addon that tells you when to turn left, right, up , or down based on the pattern. You no longer have to watch the ghosts, you only have to listen and watch for the instructions on when to turn. You're no longer reacting to the environment and the game play, you are reacting to a warning system. It just isn't what I am looking for in a game.

Ranger209

I can understand why you would like an official stance from them on this as to not waste your time making an addon that will not conform to their vision, but again their vision will change if something unforeseen happens and someone finds a way to make an addon that they don't condone, or causes an uproar among the community. It would take a whole lot of foresight to predict every way that a person such as yourself could come up with an addon that they might frown upon, or that the player base might frown upon. Unless of course there is an addon for that

Wreuntzylla

Jade1986 wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

I have no problems with Miat using the heck out of a tool made available by ZoS themselves. You really have to consider that in some cases they actually meant for the effect to be in the game. Before Miat's, most die hard PvPers would turn the music and other useless audio effects down so you could hear different things. For example, you can hear an incoming snipe or the drums that indicate you have entered into combat. For the most part, what Miat did was to make it a visual effect that won't slip past you in the adrenaline rush of competition.

Not to say I think Miat is an upstanding citizen, his stance that he has never run into cheaters pops my fizzle. But he did not do anything beyond what ZoS not only allowed him to do, but purposefully exposed the API commands for it to be done. Yes, they can hide the ones that they don't want you to use while still getting the same effect, at least short of people hacking the client-server packets.

ZoS actually stated in beta that they did not want add ons like that in the game. Sometime down the road though the team changed and priorities too.

I don't see how that affects whether Miat is a bad guy or not.

ZoS clearly changed it's stance as to Miat's addon. They previously killed a specific feature of it without killing the parts people are complaining about now, and were also complaining about back then. They were very quiet on the topic after the last change, despite continued forum posting, until Miat's became so prevalent in PvP that they couldn't continue to ignore the uproar. Even then, they hedged their bets by saying something along the lines of, 'folks, just wanted to let everyone know we are looking into this.' How many months has it been since Miat's addon was last changed in response to an API change?

I also actually remember Miat posting on the forums to get ZoS to make a statement as to whether his addon was ok or not. I don't personally think he did it for altruistic reasons. Due to other posts he made at around the same time, it seemed more about not being labeled a cheater by other competitive players. But I don't really care. The one thing Miat did not do is continue to hide his functionality at a time where many people were writing their own lua to do things that nobody else could do and keeping it secret. Probably still happens today.

There is also some excellent functionality in his addon that I don't think anybody would consider cheating and that exposed the source of certain issues. For example, for a long time people believed that certain player abilities and boss mechanics were broken server side. One of those was AoE fear. People continuously complained about AoE fear because they were dead before they could break it. Miat's addon proved it to be a function of lag. His addon would pop up an indicator that showed the mechanic was being applied to the player 2-3 seconds before you lost control client side. If you used break free when the indicator popped up, the game worked like it should. I learned about the addon because a friend of mine that ran in large, organized PvE and PvP groups mentioned to me it was essentially mandatory in both settings.

I say all of this even though I personally did not use the functionality people complained about in the past because I run the cancer that Miat points to in justifying his addon. Every week I run a solo sniper built for complete glass cannon to farm AP for monster helms. Until the mitigation meta started it's rise a couple of months ago, my build would kill 99% of players in essentially in one second. Most of the last percent were Miat users. My standing record is killing slightly over 100 people solo in 35 min outside a keep people were leaving to go to a siege. At that time I would hit people for 20-25k, now it's more like 3k-11k. I still hit PvErs who don't change gear for as much as 20k, which on some PvErs is a one shot... I have killed Miat a couple of times in the middle of his OP group. So, I completely understand his justification.

Again, I am not saying Miat is a good guy, but I definitely don't think anyone can say he's a bad guy, and he has definitely provided tools that help people overcome a broken game (e.g., lag). For a long time, everyone considered his addon a net positive.

ak_pvp

I agree with dorrino on this, whilst I do hate snipe, but don't use miats, what he is saying makes sense. ZOS knows about it and hasn't declared this stuff an exploit, so it is fair game to create, and think that it is good. And on top of that, he is giving intel on how to fix it in the areas ZOS has commented on.

Dorrino

Ranger209 wrote: »

Speaking for myself only, I prefer to rely on my own ability to perceive the action around me, rather than some warning system alerting me to the fact that there is an incoming attack heading my way. The cues in game are more natural and immersive than icons and system warning sounds.

And i wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately there's no way for addons to change in-the-world telegraphs. What you see is the best that can be done otherwise.

Ranger209 wrote: »

I also am going to fail more to pick up on everything that is happening around me. Some attacks will hit m,e others I may see or hear and dodge or block them, but it is up to me then to pay attention to what is actually transpiring in the game vs. reacting to warnings about what is transpiring in the game. I have to improve my skill based on the ever changing field of battle, rather than to sharpen my response time to warning messages.

What would you do if the game fails to telegraphs important abilities?

Complain on the forums?

It's awesome to rely on game cues. If the cues were sufficiently distinct. The game fails to provide proper positional audio. Proper visuals. Proper distinction between player related visuals and all the rest.

It just fails to deliver.

Ranger209 wrote: »

If other people are using an addon that does what yours does, they have a distinct advantage over my own natural perception because of the early warning system and the alerts they get.

I'd argue due to bad game telegraphs only.

And speaking of 'natural senses'. You don't play without UI on, do you? So in one case you're fine with NOT using 'natural senses' and in the other case you're not fine. Don't you think this distinction is purely arbitrary and only depends on what ZOS put into their base ui?

Ranger209 wrote: »

When I am in a 20 on 20 fight and attacking people from range it is always easy to tell someone who is using your addon and is proficient with it as they are dodge rolling every attack I send their way as soon as it is sent. It is almost like instead of pressing an attack I am actually pressing dodge roll for them. It is quite the lovely ballet, but takes the soul out of the game for me. So you are forced to either, "If you can't beat em join em", suck it up in spite of it all, or just enjoy the PvE content if it becomes to frustrating.

This is a natural result of having sufficient cues. Even the best players in the game fail to notice many of the existing cues. Do you find this state of the game cues acceptable?

Ranger209 wrote: »

You're no longer reacting to the environment and the game play, you are reacting to a warning system. It just isn't what I am looking for in a game.

This is not correct. You react to the environment and to its augmented version. I don't see how it's 'either or'. I see strictly both.

Ranger209 wrote: »

I can understand why you would like an official stance from them on this as to not waste your time making an addon that will not conform to their vision, but again their vision will change if something unforeseen happens and someone finds a way to make an addon that they don't condone, or causes an uproar among the community. It would take a whole lot of foresight to predict every way that a person such as yourself could come up with an addon that they might frown upon, or that the player base might frown upon. Unless of course there is an addon for that

That's why you make guidelines. Like those they already have regarding actions automation. Automation of any sorts is not allowed.

I personally found a way to circumvent this. And since it's clear that automation is not allowed i reported it and it was quite promptly fixed (the fix broke many addons, but that's another story).

As far as combat cues are concerned we do NOT have a clear statement. That's why it's not even a grey area (prone to interpretations) it's a purely white area (i.e. explicitly allowed).

I don't see why informing playerbase about their design paradigms could be a problem. A half a page text each, say half a year?

kyle.wilson

Dorrino wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Speaking for myself only, I prefer to rely on my own ability to perceive the action around me, rather than some warning system alerting me to the fact that there is an incoming attack heading my way. The cues in game are more natural and immersive than icons and system warning sounds.

And i wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately there's no way for addons to change in-the-world telegraphs. What you see is the best that can be done otherwise.

Ranger209 wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

I also am going to fail more to pick up on everything that is happening around me. Some attacks will hit m,e others I may see or hear and dodge or block them, but it is up to me then to pay attention to what is actually transpiring in the game vs. reacting to warnings about what is transpiring in the game. I have to improve my skill based on the ever changing field of battle, rather than to sharpen my response time to warning messages.

What would you do if the game fails to telegraphs important abilities?

Complain on the forums?

It's awesome to rely on game cues. If the cues were sufficiently distinct. The game fails to provide proper positional audio. Proper visuals. Proper distinction between player related visuals and all the rest.

It just fails to deliver.

Ranger209 wrote: »

If other people are using an addon that does what yours does, they have a distinct advantage over my own natural perception because of the early warning system and the alerts they get.

I'd argue due to bad game telegraphs only.

And speaking of 'natural senses'. You don't play without UI on, do you? So in one case you're fine with NOT using 'natural senses' and in the other case you're not fine. Don't you think this distinction is purely arbitrary and only depends on what ZOS put into their base ui?

Ranger209 wrote: »

When I am in a 20 on 20 fight and attacking people from range it is always easy to tell someone who is using your addon and is proficient with it as they are dodge rolling every attack I send their way as soon as it is sent. It is almost like instead of pressing an attack I am actually pressing dodge roll for them. It is quite the lovely ballet, but takes the soul out of the game for me. So you are forced to either, "If you can't beat em join em", suck it up in spite of it all, or just enjoy the PvE content if it becomes to frustrating.

This is a natural result of having sufficient cues. Even the best players in the game fail to notice many of the existing cues. Do you find this state of the game cues acceptable?

Ranger209 wrote: »

You're no longer reacting to the environment and the game play, you are reacting to a warning system. It just isn't what I am looking for in a game.

This is not correct you react to the environment and to its augmented version. I don't see how it's 'either or'. I see strictly both.

Ranger209 wrote: »

I can understand why you would like an official stance from them on this as to not waste your time making an addon that will not conform to their vision, but again their vision will change if something unforeseen happens and someone finds a way to make an addon that they don't condone, or causes an uproar among the community. It would take a whole lot of foresight to predict every way that a person such as yourself could come up with an addon that they might frown upon, or that the player base might frown upon. Unless of course there is an addon for that

That's why you make guidelines. Like that have with actions automation. Automation of any sorts is not allowed.

I personally found a way to circumvent this. And since it's clear that automation is not allowed i reported it and it was quite promptly fixed (the fix broke many addons, but that's another story).

As far as combat cues are concerned we do NOT have a clear statement. That's why it's not even a grey area (prone to interpretations) it's a purely white area (i.e. explicitly allowed).

I don't see why informing playerbase about their design paradigms could be a problem. A half a page text each, say half a year?

Did you forget to write something?

Wreuntzylla

Ranger209 wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Now, the patch notes are not a declaration of intention. Patch notes are declaration of actions. Gina might mess them up, programmers might mess up their message, but in any case patch notes tell us what is done, instead of what is intended to be done.

This is entirely false. They are exactly a declaration of intention, which may or may not actually end up with the intended result. Case in point. Patch notes say "Upon entering Cyrodiil there will no longer be lag, we have implemented xyz and have reduced the lag to 0." You enter Cyrodiil and there is more lag than there was prior to patch. They thought they fixed it, it was there intention to fix it or they wouldn't have proclaimed it as such, but it didn't fully deliver as intended.

The fact that they are looking into part 2 and possibly other scenarios they may have overlooked only reinforces what there intention is. If they catch it all and addons truly don't register anything until after it lands then they will have delivered on their declared intention. The code itself is the action, declared or not. The patch note statement is the declaration.

Anyone with common sense can see what they are attempting, but someone looking for loopholes will try to stir up ambiguity into something that is otherwise quite clear.

This is not that.

Miat's addon has been well known by ZoS, without any definitive statement as to it's status, at least since late 2016. hey already blocked one aspect they decided shouldn't be in the game without addressing the one currently being complained about.

There was a time when someone released an addon that let you see other player's dps in PvE. The API commands that let that functionality exist was removed so fast, most people don't recall it ever having happened... .

Edit: fixed date in response to Miat's comment, it should have said early 2017, but small keyboards and auto-correct hate me

Dorrino

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

at least since early 2015. .

it's 'late 2016'. The rest is correct:)

Xsorus

Personally I can't wait for it to finally go away; some players are going to be in a world of shock when they can't avoid attacks they can't see.

Jade1986

Xsorus wrote: »

Personally I can't wait for it to finally go away; some players are going to be in a world of shock when they can't avoid attacks they can't see.

Its going to be funny tbh. As it stands now so many people are using it, ranged builds are just tedious.