Why doesn't Sorcerer have access to any debuffs in the major/minor system?

gibous · January 2018

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

At game launch, the minor / major system didn't exist, instead each buff had individual numbers and to prevent people from getting too powerful by stacking similar buffs, there were softcaps. When this was changed, not all effects got transformed into the new system.

I think this is part of the practical explanation of how things ended up, some others above mentioned the historical angle. The question is, do the developers have a chart like the one I created? And if so (how could they not), do they look at that and nod and agree "yes, this is correct - the sorcerer does not have access to debuffs because _________ ."

What reason is in the blank?

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

When you look at the strong debuffs like major maim on Templars or major defile on dks and nbs, you see that they are tied to an ultimate. Sorcs also have a powerfull debuff on one of their class ultimates, but it didn't get labeled "major silence".

There are some outliers beyond the major/minor system such as negate. There's also incap strike's 20% damage increase buff. Then you have other secondary effects like root and snare - but I chose to focus on what's explicitly in the major/minor system because otherwise the conversation becomes too broadly about class balance.

Minalan wrote: »

Let’s be fair. We get one four second “instant death” debuff on mage wrath.

I’ll take that over any other debuff.

Mage's fury is very good, but Killer's Blade and Impale are worthy executes. Radiant destruction has always been strong, and even more usable next patch with the changes to interrupt. I would gladly trade the 4 second timer for a meaningful debuff. Imagine if there was a Flesh Atronach ult morph which applied major defile for 6 seconds (pvp relevant).

Nobody has mentioned it yet, but do you think it's because the class has access to a 3rd skill bar via Overload? It does offer a lot of utility in PvP, but is not always reliable, and is a non-factor in PvE being a huge waste of 2 GCDs.

Minalan · January 2018

gibous wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

At game launch, the minor / major system didn't exist, instead each buff had individual numbers and to prevent people from getting too powerful by stacking similar buffs, there were softcaps. When this was changed, not all effects got transformed into the new system.

I think this is part of the practical explanation of how things ended up, some others above mentioned the historical angle. The question is, do the developers have a chart like the one I created? And if so (how could they not), do they look at that and nod and agree "yes, this is correct - the sorcerer does not have access to debuffs because _________ ."

What reason is in the blank?

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

When you look at the strong debuffs like major maim on Templars or major defile on dks and nbs, you see that they are tied to an ultimate. Sorcs also have a powerfull debuff on one of their class ultimates, but it didn't get labeled "major silence".

There are some outliers beyond the major/minor system such as negate. There's also incap strike's 20% damage increase buff. Then you have other secondary effects like root and snare - but I chose to focus on what's explicitly in the major/minor system because otherwise the conversation becomes too broadly about class balance.

Minalan wrote: »

Let’s be fair. We get one four second “instant death” debuff on mage wrath.

I’ll take that over any other debuff.

Mage's fury is very good, but Killer's Blade and Impale are worthy executes. Radiant destruction has always been strong, and even more usable next patch with the changes to interrupt. I would gladly trade the 4 second timer for a meaningful debuff. Imagine if there was a Flesh Atronach ult morph which applied major defile for 6 seconds (pvp relevant).

Nobody has mentioned it yet, but do you think it's because the class has access to a 3rd skill bar via Overload? It does offer a lot of utility in PvP, but is not always reliable, and is a non-factor in PvE being a huge waste of 2 GCDs.

Most people dropped overload for the resto ult anyways, the utility, protection, and crit damage it gives for like six seconds are pretty significant.

If they’re balancing around us getting a third bar, that needs to stop.

Micah_Bayer · January 2018

SirAndy wrote: »

gibous wrote: »

Is there a reason for this? Every other class has access to 3-5 debuffs in the major/minor system.

Why doesn't Nightblade have 20k+ shields?

They can if you build it correctly. You have access to two shields

Micah_Bayer · January 2018

Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »

Elite shield stacking sorcs in PvP usually inflict major boredom on me, lower tier sorcs cast major boredom and then they streak away inflicting major waste your time.

So heavy armour troll king users don't inflict major boredom? Good luck killing them because you sure as hell can't

Apache_Kid · January 2018

@xiZeroPointix you are right in your interpretation except idk how we can have this discussion without considering the weapon skill lines. These classes do not exsist in a vacuum and the developers designed them with that in mind.

Didgerion · January 2018

gibous wrote: »

Is there a reason for this? Every other class has access to 3-5 debuffs in the major/minor system.

Because they don't know how to balance Sorcs.

As they will add one more "Major" buff to sorcs and the very next patch you will end up with new sets like "Shield Penetrator" or "Shield Sucker" sets.

Minno · January 2018

Minalan wrote: »

gibous wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

At game launch, the minor / major system didn't exist, instead each buff had individual numbers and to prevent people from getting too powerful by stacking similar buffs, there were softcaps. When this was changed, not all effects got transformed into the new system.

I think this is part of the practical explanation of how things ended up, some others above mentioned the historical angle. The question is, do the developers have a chart like the one I created? And if so (how could they not), do they look at that and nod and agree "yes, this is correct - the sorcerer does not have access to debuffs because _________ ."

What reason is in the blank?

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

When you look at the strong debuffs like major maim on Templars or major defile on dks and nbs, you see that they are tied to an ultimate. Sorcs also have a powerfull debuff on one of their class ultimates, but it didn't get labeled "major silence".

There are some outliers beyond the major/minor system such as negate. There's also incap strike's 20% damage increase buff. Then you have other secondary effects like root and snare - but I chose to focus on what's explicitly in the major/minor system because otherwise the conversation becomes too broadly about class balance.

Minalan wrote: »

Let’s be fair. We get one four second “instant death” debuff on mage wrath.

I’ll take that over any other debuff.

Mage's fury is very good, but Killer's Blade and Impale are worthy executes. Radiant destruction has always been strong, and even more usable next patch with the changes to interrupt. I would gladly trade the 4 second timer for a meaningful debuff. Imagine if there was a Flesh Atronach ult morph which applied major defile for 6 seconds (pvp relevant).

Nobody has mentioned it yet, but do you think it's because the class has access to a 3rd skill bar via Overload? It does offer a lot of utility in PvP, but is not always reliable, and is a non-factor in PvE being a huge waste of 2 GCDs.

Most people dropped overload for the resto ult anyways, the utility, protection, and crit damage it gives for like six seconds are pretty significant.

If they’re balancing around us getting a third bar, that needs to stop.

Life giver is arguably just as good. You trade major protection and crit on only one person for the same heal but ability to drop whatever morphs you picked for combat prayer/healing Ward/mutagen.

The idea is you get:
- free healing ward which should be boosted by your bastion dump,
- free combat prayer which gives 8% raw DMG done plus minor resists and a burst heal
- mutagen to give a strong hot with a burst heal if you get below x health.

Pastas · January 2018

gibous wrote: »

Is there a reason for this? Every other class has access to 3-5 debuffs in the major/minor system.

You know there are more debuffs out of the major-minor system ritgh?.
If you dont include them in your list we can't see the whole picture. What about stun, snare, fear, silence...? They are not debuffs because they are out of the major-minor system?

Beardimus · January 2018

Minno wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

gibous wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

At game launch, the minor / major system didn't exist, instead each buff had individual numbers and to prevent people from getting too powerful by stacking similar buffs, there were softcaps. When this was changed, not all effects got transformed into the new system.

I think this is part of the practical explanation of how things ended up, some others above mentioned the historical angle. The question is, do the developers have a chart like the one I created? And if so (how could they not), do they look at that and nod and agree "yes, this is correct - the sorcerer does not have access to debuffs because _________ ."

What reason is in the blank?

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

When you look at the strong debuffs like major maim on Templars or major defile on dks and nbs, you see that they are tied to an ultimate. Sorcs also have a powerfull debuff on one of their class ultimates, but it didn't get labeled "major silence".

There are some outliers beyond the major/minor system such as negate. There's also incap strike's 20% damage increase buff. Then you have other secondary effects like root and snare - but I chose to focus on what's explicitly in the major/minor system because otherwise the conversation becomes too broadly about class balance.

Minalan wrote: »

Let’s be fair. We get one four second “instant death” debuff on mage wrath.

I’ll take that over any other debuff.

Mage's fury is very good, but Killer's Blade and Impale are worthy executes. Radiant destruction has always been strong, and even more usable next patch with the changes to interrupt. I would gladly trade the 4 second timer for a meaningful debuff. Imagine if there was a Flesh Atronach ult morph which applied major defile for 6 seconds (pvp relevant).

Nobody has mentioned it yet, but do you think it's because the class has access to a 3rd skill bar via Overload? It does offer a lot of utility in PvP, but is not always reliable, and is a non-factor in PvE being a huge waste of 2 GCDs.

Most people dropped overload for the resto ult anyways, the utility, protection, and crit damage it gives for like six seconds are pretty significant.

If they’re balancing around us getting a third bar, that needs to stop.

Life giver is arguably just as good. You trade major protection and crit on only one person for the same heal but ability to drop whatever morphs you picked for combat prayer/healing Ward/mutagen.

The idea is you get:
- free healing ward which should be boosted by your bastion dump,
- free combat prayer which gives 8% raw DMG done plus minor resists and a burst heal
- mutagen to give a strong hot with a burst heal if you get below x health.

Hate to digress the thread as this question isn't about class skills but am curious @Minno is that how life giver works? Or does it fire the base, un-morphed skills?

Dracane · January 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Let’s be fair. We get one four second “instant death” debuff on mage wrath.

I’ll take that over any other debuff.

Let's be real. If mages fury procs, then the enemy was already death in most cases. The debuff is nice, yet mages fury is still a weak execute due to its low execute range and despite being an explosion, it is still blockable annd thus rarely " instant death".

Please

Minno · January 2018

Beardimus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

gibous wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

At game launch, the minor / major system didn't exist, instead each buff had individual numbers and to prevent people from getting too powerful by stacking similar buffs, there were softcaps. When this was changed, not all effects got transformed into the new system.

I think this is part of the practical explanation of how things ended up, some others above mentioned the historical angle. The question is, do the developers have a chart like the one I created? And if so (how could they not), do they look at that and nod and agree "yes, this is correct - the sorcerer does not have access to debuffs because _________ ."

What reason is in the blank?

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

When you look at the strong debuffs like major maim on Templars or major defile on dks and nbs, you see that they are tied to an ultimate. Sorcs also have a powerfull debuff on one of their class ultimates, but it didn't get labeled "major silence".

There are some outliers beyond the major/minor system such as negate. There's also incap strike's 20% damage increase buff. Then you have other secondary effects like root and snare - but I chose to focus on what's explicitly in the major/minor system because otherwise the conversation becomes too broadly about class balance.

Minalan wrote: »

Let’s be fair. We get one four second “instant death” debuff on mage wrath.

I’ll take that over any other debuff.

Mage's fury is very good, but Killer's Blade and Impale are worthy executes. Radiant destruction has always been strong, and even more usable next patch with the changes to interrupt. I would gladly trade the 4 second timer for a meaningful debuff. Imagine if there was a Flesh Atronach ult morph which applied major defile for 6 seconds (pvp relevant).

Nobody has mentioned it yet, but do you think it's because the class has access to a 3rd skill bar via Overload? It does offer a lot of utility in PvP, but is not always reliable, and is a non-factor in PvE being a huge waste of 2 GCDs.

Most people dropped overload for the resto ult anyways, the utility, protection, and crit damage it gives for like six seconds are pretty significant.

If they’re balancing around us getting a third bar, that needs to stop.

Life giver is arguably just as good. You trade major protection and crit on only one person for the same heal but ability to drop whatever morphs you picked for combat prayer/healing Ward/mutagen.

The idea is you get:
- free healing ward which should be boosted by your bastion dump,
- free combat prayer which gives 8% raw DMG done plus minor resists and a burst heal
- mutagen to give a strong hot with a burst heal if you get below x health.

Hate to digress the thread as this question isn't about class skills but am curious @Minno is that how life giver works? Or does it fire the base, un-morphed skills?

It fires off the current version of those spells, which ever you pick.

Minalan · January 2018

Pastas wrote: »

gibous wrote: »

Is there a reason for this? Every other class has access to 3-5 debuffs in the major/minor system.

You know there are more debuffs out of the major-minor system ritgh?.
If you dont include them in your list we can't see the whole picture. What about stun, snare, fear, silence...? They are not debuffs because they are out of the major-minor system?

Umm... We lost the stun on frags and have to slot rune cage. We don’t get fear. We have a silence attached to an expensive ultimate (negate). And we get a snare that people can jump over and avoid, where ever other class gets this stuff on regular attack skills.

Am I missing something?

Vahrokh · January 2018

Please let's leave sorcs as is.

ZOS have already fiddled with it too much, 99% thanks to PvP whining.
They have made the class boring, stupid, mono-dimensional, limited.
Even when sorcs will only have 2 skills left, they will be 2 shields (duration: 2 seconds each), just to bait more nerf threads.

Leave that rotten corpse of a class be and have fun with a stamblade or something lovely else.

Savos_Saren · January 2018

You forgot "major expedition" on the initial list. You also forgot to mention that it's the only class to completely negate any magical abilities in an area (there's no "major/minor" buff for that) or that it has an active AND passive execute.

Yamenstein · January 2018

gibous wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Why doesn't Templar have cloak?

SirAndy wrote: »

Why doesn't Nightblade have 20k+ shields?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

because all the classes have flavors, this is one of the things that makes sorcs different. might as well ask why don't templars have a familiar.

This is about debuffs, not signature active abilities like hardened ward, cloak, or a pet.

paulsimonps wrote: »

I already know them but could you add the buffs and debuffs from weapon skill lines in a picture like that too, for the sake of the discussion?

The discussion is specifically about debuffs available via class abilities and not those accessible via weapons.

usmcjdking wrote: »

Sorcs have access to major expedition via Lightning Form.

I'd also probably count concussion in the debuffs albeit it is RNG - as is minor maim for Warden.

Yup you're right about major expedition. But the main point of the list is that sorc has no class debuffs. I get what you're saying with RNG elemental status effects like chilled or concussed, but they're just not the same thing as X ability inflicting Y debuff upon hitting a target. I'm talking about major/minor debuffs explicitly attached to abilities.

The point that was being made was still relevant to your discussion. Each class has something that sets it a part from others. Sorceres don't need those debufss as they her them from outside their skill lines or other classes apply it for them. Also they do great DPS without those debuffs. If they had those debuffs then it won't be balanced. So unless you want ZOS to redesign all the sorcerer skills so they can be included, that is the reason they don't have those skills.

Tasear · January 2018

Too be fair... this probably why we have overlord and are only class with 3 bars.

Lord-Otto · January 2018

Tasear wrote: »

Too be fair... this probably why we have overlord and are only class with 3 bars.

No.
We have Overload third bar because

- our max mag buff is not a passive, but a toggle and must go on all bars
- our pets are not cast-and-done and must go on all bars, being toggles
- our sustain tool is not a passive and requires a slot and some stamina and casted time
- our defense is not as slot-free as dodge and block, and requires three slots
- more reasons

And we still lose the third bar after dropping an ult, Overload is still not the instant burst ulti every other class has, and toggling Overload still takes an hour. As a result, no competent sorc uses OL as an ult, and the third bar, if used at all, is being filled with expendable utility skills only. Mostly mobility. Nothing that would give you an edge in an actual fight.

Chilly-McFreeze · January 2018

Yamenstein wrote: »

gibous wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Why doesn't Templar have cloak?

SirAndy wrote: »

Why doesn't Nightblade have 20k+ shields?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

because all the classes have flavors, this is one of the things that makes sorcs different. might as well ask why don't templars have a familiar.

This is about debuffs, not signature active abilities like hardened ward, cloak, or a pet.

paulsimonps wrote: »

I already know them but could you add the buffs and debuffs from weapon skill lines in a picture like that too, for the sake of the discussion?

The discussion is specifically about debuffs available via class abilities and not those accessible via weapons.

usmcjdking wrote: »

Sorcs have access to major expedition via Lightning Form.

I'd also probably count concussion in the debuffs albeit it is RNG - as is minor maim for Warden.

Yup you're right about major expedition. But the main point of the list is that sorc has no class debuffs. I get what you're saying with RNG elemental status effects like chilled or concussed, but they're just not the same thing as X ability inflicting Y debuff upon hitting a target. I'm talking about major/minor debuffs explicitly attached to abilities.

The point that was being made was still relevant to your discussion. Each class has something that sets it a part from others. Sorceres don't need those debufss as they her them from outside their skill lines or other classes apply it for them. Also they do great DPS without those debuffs. If they had those debuffs then it won't be balanced. So unless you want ZOS to redesign all the sorcerer skills so they can be included, that is the reason they don't have those skills.

And if you take a look at how both sorc variants currently perform in cyro you would come to a different conclusion.

Yamenstein · January 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

gibous wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Why doesn't Templar have cloak?

SirAndy wrote: »

Why doesn't Nightblade have 20k+ shields?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

because all the classes have flavors, this is one of the things that makes sorcs different. might as well ask why don't templars have a familiar.

This is about debuffs, not signature active abilities like hardened ward, cloak, or a pet.

paulsimonps wrote: »

I already know them but could you add the buffs and debuffs from weapon skill lines in a picture like that too, for the sake of the discussion?

The discussion is specifically about debuffs available via class abilities and not those accessible via weapons.

usmcjdking wrote: »

Sorcs have access to major expedition via Lightning Form.

I'd also probably count concussion in the debuffs albeit it is RNG - as is minor maim for Warden.

Yup you're right about major expedition. But the main point of the list is that sorc has no class debuffs. I get what you're saying with RNG elemental status effects like chilled or concussed, but they're just not the same thing as X ability inflicting Y debuff upon hitting a target. I'm talking about major/minor debuffs explicitly attached to abilities.

The point that was being made was still relevant to your discussion. Each class has something that sets it a part from others. Sorceres don't need those debufss as they her them from outside their skill lines or other classes apply it for them. Also they do great DPS without those debuffs. If they had those debuffs then it won't be balanced. So unless you want ZOS to redesign all the sorcerer skills so they can be included, that is the reason they don't have those skills.

And if you take a look at how both sorc variants currently perform in cyro you would come to a different conclusion.

So by giving the class the same number and types of debuffs will make sorcerers balanced for PvP? Yeah they might need some love but that doesn't mean give them debuffs for the sake of just giving them.

Edit: They have certain debuffs from other skill line lines if you want to go down the path of how they are performing in PvP. Just wacking them onto the class skills is lazy.

Chilly-McFreeze · January 2018

Yamenstein wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

gibous wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Why doesn't Templar have cloak?

SirAndy wrote: »

Why doesn't Nightblade have 20k+ shields?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

because all the classes have flavors, this is one of the things that makes sorcs different. might as well ask why don't templars have a familiar.

This is about debuffs, not signature active abilities like hardened ward, cloak, or a pet.

paulsimonps wrote: »

I already know them but could you add the buffs and debuffs from weapon skill lines in a picture like that too, for the sake of the discussion?

The discussion is specifically about debuffs available via class abilities and not those accessible via weapons.

usmcjdking wrote: »

Sorcs have access to major expedition via Lightning Form.

I'd also probably count concussion in the debuffs albeit it is RNG - as is minor maim for Warden.

Yup you're right about major expedition. But the main point of the list is that sorc has no class debuffs. I get what you're saying with RNG elemental status effects like chilled or concussed, but they're just not the same thing as X ability inflicting Y debuff upon hitting a target. I'm talking about major/minor debuffs explicitly attached to abilities.

The point that was being made was still relevant to your discussion. Each class has something that sets it a part from others. Sorceres don't need those debufss as they her them from outside their skill lines or other classes apply it for them. Also they do great DPS without those debuffs. If they had those debuffs then it won't be balanced. So unless you want ZOS to redesign all the sorcerer skills so they can be included, that is the reason they don't have those skills.

And if you take a look at how both sorc variants currently perform in cyro you would come to a different conclusion.

So by giving the class the same number and types of debuffs will make sorcerers balanced for PvP? Yeah they might need some love but that doesn't mean give them debuffs for the sake of just giving them.

Edit: They have certain debuffs from other skill line lines if you want to go down the path of how they are performing in PvP. Just wacking them onto the class skills is lazy.

No, not the same amount. But at least any. Doesn't have to be something that helps in pve (like defile), it could be something redundant for group play (breach, fracture) to still not boost group pve potential but to help out in (solo) pvp without pigeonholing into a specific weapon/ build.

Yamenstein · January 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

gibous wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Why doesn't Templar have cloak?

SirAndy wrote: »

Why doesn't Nightblade have 20k+ shields?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

because all the classes have flavors, this is one of the things that makes sorcs different. might as well ask why don't templars have a familiar.

This is about debuffs, not signature active abilities like hardened ward, cloak, or a pet.

paulsimonps wrote: »

I already know them but could you add the buffs and debuffs from weapon skill lines in a picture like that too, for the sake of the discussion?

The discussion is specifically about debuffs available via class abilities and not those accessible via weapons.

usmcjdking wrote: »

Sorcs have access to major expedition via Lightning Form.

I'd also probably count concussion in the debuffs albeit it is RNG - as is minor maim for Warden.

Yup you're right about major expedition. But the main point of the list is that sorc has no class debuffs. I get what you're saying with RNG elemental status effects like chilled or concussed, but they're just not the same thing as X ability inflicting Y debuff upon hitting a target. I'm talking about major/minor debuffs explicitly attached to abilities.

The point that was being made was still relevant to your discussion. Each class has something that sets it a part from others. Sorceres don't need those debufss as they her them from outside their skill lines or other classes apply it for them. Also they do great DPS without those debuffs. If they had those debuffs then it won't be balanced. So unless you want ZOS to redesign all the sorcerer skills so they can be included, that is the reason they don't have those skills.

And if you take a look at how both sorc variants currently perform in cyro you would come to a different conclusion.

So by giving the class the same number and types of debuffs will make sorcerers balanced for PvP? Yeah they might need some love but that doesn't mean give them debuffs for the sake of just giving them.

Edit: They have certain debuffs from other skill line lines if you want to go down the path of how they are performing in PvP. Just wacking them onto the class skills is lazy.

No, not the same amount. But at least any. Doesn't have to be something that helps in pve (like defile), it could be something redundant for group play (breach, fracture) to still not boost group pve potential but to help out in (solo) pvp without pigeonholing into a specific weapon/ build.

I still see no way they could just add the debuffs with the sorcerers skills as is. I'm all for ESO to redesign sorcerer skills if you really want those debuffs to be included.

Chilly-McFreeze · January 2018

Yamenstein wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

gibous wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Why doesn't Templar have cloak?

SirAndy wrote: »

Why doesn't Nightblade have 20k+ shields?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

because all the classes have flavors, this is one of the things that makes sorcs different. might as well ask why don't templars have a familiar.

This is about debuffs, not signature active abilities like hardened ward, cloak, or a pet.

paulsimonps wrote: »

I already know them but could you add the buffs and debuffs from weapon skill lines in a picture like that too, for the sake of the discussion?

The discussion is specifically about debuffs available via class abilities and not those accessible via weapons.

usmcjdking wrote: »

Sorcs have access to major expedition via Lightning Form.

I'd also probably count concussion in the debuffs albeit it is RNG - as is minor maim for Warden.

Yup you're right about major expedition. But the main point of the list is that sorc has no class debuffs. I get what you're saying with RNG elemental status effects like chilled or concussed, but they're just not the same thing as X ability inflicting Y debuff upon hitting a target. I'm talking about major/minor debuffs explicitly attached to abilities.

The point that was being made was still relevant to your discussion. Each class has something that sets it a part from others. Sorceres don't need those debufss as they her them from outside their skill lines or other classes apply it for them. Also they do great DPS without those debuffs. If they had those debuffs then it won't be balanced. So unless you want ZOS to redesign all the sorcerer skills so they can be included, that is the reason they don't have those skills.

And if you take a look at how both sorc variants currently perform in cyro you would come to a different conclusion.

So by giving the class the same number and types of debuffs will make sorcerers balanced for PvP? Yeah they might need some love but that doesn't mean give them debuffs for the sake of just giving them.

Edit: They have certain debuffs from other skill line lines if you want to go down the path of how they are performing in PvP. Just wacking them onto the class skills is lazy.

No, not the same amount. But at least any. Doesn't have to be something that helps in pve (like defile), it could be something redundant for group play (breach, fracture) to still not boost group pve potential but to help out in (solo) pvp without pigeonholing into a specific weapon/ build.

I still see no way they could just add the debuffs with the sorcerers skills as is. I'm all for ESO to redesign sorcerer skills if you really want those debuffs to be included.

Tbh I'm all for a class redesign. It's bland, pigeonholed. Not to start about Shieldstacking

Yamenstein · January 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

gibous wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Why doesn't Templar have cloak?

SirAndy wrote: »

Why doesn't Nightblade have 20k+ shields?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

because all the classes have flavors, this is one of the things that makes sorcs different. might as well ask why don't templars have a familiar.

This is about debuffs, not signature active abilities like hardened ward, cloak, or a pet.

paulsimonps wrote: »

I already know them but could you add the buffs and debuffs from weapon skill lines in a picture like that too, for the sake of the discussion?

The discussion is specifically about debuffs available via class abilities and not those accessible via weapons.

usmcjdking wrote: »

Sorcs have access to major expedition via Lightning Form.

I'd also probably count concussion in the debuffs albeit it is RNG - as is minor maim for Warden.

Yup you're right about major expedition. But the main point of the list is that sorc has no class debuffs. I get what you're saying with RNG elemental status effects like chilled or concussed, but they're just not the same thing as X ability inflicting Y debuff upon hitting a target. I'm talking about major/minor debuffs explicitly attached to abilities.

The point that was being made was still relevant to your discussion. Each class has something that sets it a part from others. Sorceres don't need those debufss as they her them from outside their skill lines or other classes apply it for them. Also they do great DPS without those debuffs. If they had those debuffs then it won't be balanced. So unless you want ZOS to redesign all the sorcerer skills so they can be included, that is the reason they don't have those skills.

And if you take a look at how both sorc variants currently perform in cyro you would come to a different conclusion.

So by giving the class the same number and types of debuffs will make sorcerers balanced for PvP? Yeah they might need some love but that doesn't mean give them debuffs for the sake of just giving them.

Edit: They have certain debuffs from other skill line lines if you want to go down the path of how they are performing in PvP. Just wacking them onto the class skills is lazy.

No, not the same amount. But at least any. Doesn't have to be something that helps in pve (like defile), it could be something redundant for group play (breach, fracture) to still not boost group pve potential but to help out in (solo) pvp without pigeonholing into a specific weapon/ build.

I still see no way they could just add the debuffs with the sorcerers skills as is. I'm all for ESO to redesign sorcerer skills if you really want those debuffs to be included.

Tbh I'm all for a class redesign. It's bland, pigeonholed. Not to start about Shieldstacking

Problem is everyone else will complain. "Nerf" will be cried out until everyone is blue in the face and ZOS just caves. Make one small change and fans go crazy. Ah well.

In regards to debuffs I don't mind that sorcerers don't have as many or any at all even. They do perform well in both pve and pvp, and if they aren't performing as well as some other classes then adding a debuffs or making another change will help either way.

Biro123 · January 2018

Really this just illustrates that you can't compare classes on an ability by ability(and tooltip) basis. They are also part of a package.