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Why doesn't Sorcerer have access to any debuffs in the major/minor system?
gibous
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Is there a reason for this? Every other class has access to 3-5 debuffs in the major/minor system.
Reddington James — Magsorc & Magplar (NA PC)
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SirMewser✭✭✭✭✭I asked ZoS nicely for the Twilight Tormentor to not be so useless half of the time, adding minor breach (ST group support) to the active since she is hardly any more DPS than the Matriarch (which has burst heal utility).
Nowadays many magic classes run heavy attack builds with lightning staves so even minor vulnerability isn't considered a "Sorc" exclusive thing despite all of the shock spells.
Personally I find it annoying in PvE that in an Elder Scroll game I am forced to run a staff when really I only picked this class because I've always played as a conjurer with a sword. (Where is our spell knight/1H line?) Even when I run with a Maelstrom staff in trials, I am dealing much better LA and HA but I am not providing anything besides DPS (especially not to the already 100% uptime of vulnerability).
This is very specific for a broad topic on just the class debuffs, but to me it's relevant because I am looking at where "my place" is in end-game PvE.
Edited by SirMewser on January 26, 2018 3:07AM1 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭because all the classes have flavors, this is one of the things that makes sorcs different. might as well ask why don't templars have a familiar.0 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sorc buffs are pretty cool , and you could access the debuffs from other skill lines .
Sorc is already at great spot in PVE and play simple .
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paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Is there a reason for this? Every other class has access to 3-5 debuffs in the major/minor system.
I already know them but could you add the buffs and debuffs from weapon skill lines in a picture like that too, for the sake of the discussion?1 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sorcs have access to major expedition via Lightning Form.
I'd also probably count concussion in the debuffs albeit it is RNG - as is minor maim for Warden.0331
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gibous✭✭✭✭Why doesn't Templar have cloak?Why doesn't Nightblade have 20k+ shields?Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »because all the classes have flavors, this is one of the things that makes sorcs different. might as well ask why don't templars have a familiar.
This is about debuffs, not signature active abilities like hardened ward, cloak, or a pet.paulsimonps wrote: »I already know them but could you add the buffs and debuffs from weapon skill lines in a picture like that too, for the sake of the discussion?
The discussion is specifically about debuffs available via class abilities and not those accessible via weapons.usmcjdking wrote: »Sorcs have access to major expedition via Lightning Form.
I'd also probably count concussion in the debuffs albeit it is RNG - as is minor maim for Warden.
Yup you're right about major expedition. But the main point of the list is that sorc has no class debuffs. I get what you're saying with RNG elemental status effects like chilled or concussed, but they're just not the same thing as X ability inflicting Y debuff upon hitting a target. I'm talking about major/minor debuffs explicitly attached to abilities.Reddington James — Magsorc & Magplar (NA PC)1 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This is about debuffs, not signature active abilities like hardened ward, cloak, or a pet.
as far as i see it, it is a "signature" of the classes to have or not have these abilities, just like the active abilities. same difference.4 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »This is about debuffs, not signature active abilities like hardened ward, cloak, or a pet.
as far as i see it, it is a "signature" of the classes to have or not have these abilities, just like the active abilities. same difference.
It was also a signature to have high elf sorcs use Force Pulse to make full advantage of the tri-element racial and proc all three status effects. Signatures have actually very little value for the combat design team.1 -
xiZeroPointix✭✭✭It not only has no de buffs, but it also only has about half of the amount of total buffs. This makes the sorc easily gain high dps potential because it is able to stack its passives with group buffs. Due to the percent amps from passives that boost raw stats and recovery on top of gaining major minor buffs from dks and templars. Solo its good..in an raid group the sorc becomes so much more powerful0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I’d rather have native access to at least minor defile. But the reason that debuffs are so scarce is simple: The major/minor system was introduced at a time where the image of “Sorc OP!!!!!111” was already fixed on the heads of forum users. If the class were to get even a tiny buff the forum would implode.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.3 -
Zorgon_The_Revenged✭✭✭✭✭Elite shield stacking sorcs in PvP usually inflict major boredom on me, lower tier sorcs cast major boredom and then they streak away inflicting major waste your time.Edited by Zorgon_The_Revenged on January 26, 2018 11:48AM8
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Zer0oo✭✭✭✭✭
✭sorcs do no have access to major berserk they can only give some other person major berserk if they use the atronach synergy
They also have also major expedition(note they can only have one either hurricane(minor) or lightning form(major))
- Update 23Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I’d rather have native access to at least minor defile. But the reason that debuffs are so scarce is simple: The major/minor system was introduced at a time where the image of “Sorc OP!!!!!111” was already fixed on the heads of forum users. If the class were to get even a tiny buff the forum would implode.
It was introduced at the same time as people started viewing(magicka) Sorcs above average in PvP. It also happened to gut the most powerful damage buff in game at that point, which was native to the Sorc class. Sorc didn't have debuffs before that, either.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Beardimus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think this is a great question. Never thought about it how missing they are!
I can only assume they just were not deemed as a supporting class or something like that. It is odd.
As for anyone bringing up issue with Sorcs warding, seriously this is not the place for that. And you are in 2015 if you think they are OP still change the tune!Xbox One | EU | EP
Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
1st Emperor of RavenwatchAlts - - for the Lolz
Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master
Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders
Xbox One | NA | EP
Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach2 -
xiZeroPointix✭✭✭Sorcs have to have wards..dark deal...and crit surge because they lack major minor buffs and need to be given these buffs by either non class skills or other classes in the group. A good player can make any class look good. Stop with the nerf sorc threads!! This excactly why the devs have left sorcs alone and instead they have nerfed templars dks and nb. Nightblade has 3 more buffs than any class in the game and are the only one with acces to major and minor berserk
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boombazookajd✭✭✭✭✭
A player debuffed you with Major Disappointment. Find a templar to purge
Isn't this a perma-debuff for all players after a certain amount of play time?
Drathus Delenu- Dunmer magDk: Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Stormproof, Peak Scaler, Clockwork Confounder, Orderly, Master Wizard, Cloudrest Hero, Undaunted, Dragonstar Arena Champion
Thoronir Rolston- Breton petsorc: Stormproof
Zaakazha-Redguard stamblade: Boethia's Scythe, Clockwork Confounder, Maelstrom Arena Champion, Dragonstar Arena Champion
Scrubs:
Justinius Maximus Decimus- Altmer magblade
Agronak gro'Mashul- Orc DK Tank
Valerya Hawkcroft- Breton healer
Zaaka- Imperial stamDK/crafter
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Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You have access to weakness to elements using the Destruction staff skill-line.
Every class doesn't need to be the same. We are already approaching that state of the game too rapidly for my tastes. Sorcs do not need any sort of buff (in the form of access to class debuffs) at all compared to the other classes out there.1 -
Dojohoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sorcs need no debuffs. They deal significant damage, therefore, naturally "debuff" the health bar of their foes. It's almost effortless. I know, I play all the classes, except wardens.
Also.. Check out the cool passives that sorcs have. Implosion, for instance, is a chance for a free execute.
Regarding nightblades.. yes the list is long, but all of those buffs/debuffs are not available for use on a single nightblade. Some buffs/debuffs are attached to a skill morph, maybe the one you don't want to use.Fan of playing magblade since 2015. (PC NA)
Might be joking in comments.
-->(((Cyrodiil)))<--2 -
xiZeroPointix✭✭✭Im not saying sorcs need a buff or that need acces to powerful de buffs...they have so little in there own class that they must get the buffs outside of there own class. Sorcs are powerful yes. But they rely on a lot of skills outside of there class to do so. Pulse..entropy..inner light...blockade...destructive reach...weaness to elements. Very few skills on a sorcs bars are from its actual class which is what the table really represents. As for the op was a question on why the sorc has so little class buffs is group play. That is where a sorc shines..groups..yes it can be done solo, this is not a buff sorc thread just need information on why they have so little class available buffs1
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gibous✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »This is about debuffs, not signature active abilities like hardened ward, cloak, or a pet.
as far as i see it, it is a "signature" of the classes to have or not have these abilities, just like the active abilities. same difference.
Hi again, I think you've gone too far down the wrong road. Perhaps your opinion is that the base sorc skills are so good, they don't need any attached debuffs?xiZeroPointix wrote: »It not only has no de buffs, but it also only has about half of the amount of total buffs. This makes the sorc easily gain high dps potential because it is able to stack its passives with group buffs. Due to the percent amps from passives that boost raw stats and recovery on top of gaining major minor buffs from dks and templars. Solo its good..in an raid group the sorc becomes so much more powerful
Thank you for understanding the question. I can see how in a raid there is little impact on the end result, but for small group and solo play, the same number of debuffs and buffs would likely not be available. I just find it very odd there isn't even 1 class debuff for sorc.Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »Elite shield stacking sorcs in PvP usually inflict major boredom on me, lower tier sorcs cast major boredom and then they streak away inflicting major waste your time.
Ha! What about Minor Bunnyhopping?sorcs do no have access to major berserk they can only give some other person major berserk if they use the atronach synergy
They also have also major expedition(note they can only have one either hurricane(minor) or lightning form(major))
Correct about berserk - but I included it considering that it's a buff that can be contributed to group play. I did make a mistake by excluding major expedition, but as noted above, the listing was just a visual aid showing how sorc has zero debuffs. And yes you can only take major or minor expedition on sorc, but the other classes as well would have to choose between morphs - the list just shows the range of options.I’d rather have native access to at least minor defile. But the reason that debuffs are so scarce is simple: The major/minor system was introduced at a time where the image of “Sorc OP!!!!!111” was already fixed on the heads of forum users. If the class were to get even a tiny buff the forum would implode.
It was introduced at the same time as people started viewing(magicka) Sorcs above average in PvP. It also happened to gut the most powerful damage buff in game at that point, which was native to the Sorc class. Sorc didn't have debuffs before that, either.
Interesting ideas. I could definitely see this being a contributing factor, especially considering what happened to the Dragonknight class after their reign of terror.Apache_Kid wrote: »You have access to weakness to elements using the Destruction staff skill-line.
Every class doesn't need to be the same. We are already approaching that state of the game too rapidly for my tastes. Sorcs do not need any sort of buff (in the form of access to class debuffs) at all compared to the other classes out there.
Sorry but once again we are not talking about debuffs accessible via Weapon lines. I do agree that the classes should not be symmetrically designed, but I do not think access to at least one meaningful class debuff would make them the same as all other classes. I think what you're trying to say is that you see the base sorc damage as being high enough that debuffs are not necessary. This is a possibility I've considered - correct me if this interpretation is inaccurate.Sorcs need no debuffs. They deal significant damage, therefore, naturally "debuff" the health bar of their foes. It's almost effortless. I know, I play all the classes, except wardens.
Also.. Check out the cool passives that sorcs have. Implosion, for instance, is a chance for a free execute.
Regarding nightblades.. yes the list is long, but all of those buffs/debuffs are not available for use on a single nightblade. Some buffs/debuffs are attached to a skill morph, maybe the one you don't want to use.
Thanks for understanding the original question - I think the topic readily frays.
The emergent insight on this seems to be that base sorcerer damage is high enough to warrant not having any debuffs. As I noted above, that's been a way I've looked at it, but it still seems off to me. As you say regarding NB - you have to make interesting choices between morphs to include buffs/debuffs in your build. There are hardly any interesting choices on sorcerer. There is a one-best-morph for magicka sorc and stamina sorc, and that's it. There's no decision to be made.
This opens up a whole new topic on morph diversity. I don't wanna go too off-topic but there's just so many boring morphs in the game. Take Mages Wrath and Endless Fury. In this case, both morphs are underwhelming - the base skill being an execute with a timing component is what's interesting. Here would be an opportunity to make a meaningful morph decision: Make one of the morphs deal less execute damage but inflict a debuff. Or make Shattering Prison more appealing by adding a debuff rather than a very weak damage component that is irrelevant in PvE and PvP. What about Lightning Flood - does anyone use that? I would imagine everyone takes the longer duration morph in PvE for a smoother rotation.Reddington James — Magsorc & Magplar (NA PC)2 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
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Oh come on. You know better than to think Sorc shields are that OP at this point. In PVE, magic NBs are far more survivable than sorc. Nobody slots more than one shield (yes sorcs is a few k stronger), and NBs have much better built in healing and mobility.
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xiZeroPointix✭✭✭I would like to see encase..inflict minor defile or maim instead of choosing to snare opponents or deals x damage when the effect ends2
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lolo_01b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭At game launch, the minor / major system didn't exist, instead each buff had individual numbers and to prevent people from getting too powerful by stacking similar buffs, there were softcaps. When this was changed, not all effects got transformed into the new system.
When you look at the strong debuffs like major maim on Templars or major defile on dks and nbs, you see that they are tied to an ultimate. Sorcs also have a powerfull debuff on one of their class ultimates, but it didn't get labeled "major silence".
But thinking about it, it could be nice to remove some of the debuffs, especially those that are usually applied by weapon skills and instead add some effects to those skills that are acutally useful. (Thinking about skills like Reapers Mark and Dark Shades, as well as some of the templar skills, but those at least have some use in pvp.)
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Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Let’s be fair. We get one four second “instant death” debuff on mage wrath.
I’ll take that over any other debuff.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I asked ZoS nicely for the Twilight Tormentor to not be so useless half of the time, adding minor breach (ST group support) to the active since she is hardly any more DPS than the Matriarch (which has burst heal utility).
Nowadays many magic classes run heavy attack builds with lightning staves so even minor vulnerability isn't considered a "Sorc" exclusive thing despite all of the shock spells.
Personally I find it annoying in PvE that in an Elder Scroll game I am forced to run a staff when really I only picked this class because I've always played as a conjurer with a sword. (Where is our spell knight/1H line?) Even when I run with a Maelstrom staff in trials, I am dealing much better LA and HA but I am not providing anything besides DPS (especially not to the already 100% uptime of vulnerability).
This is very specific for a broad topic on just the class debuffs, but to me it's relevant because I am looking at where "my place" is in end-game PvE.
Considering PvE Is the only thing mentioned the breach debut would be useful most of the time on group situations. The tank applies that debuff.
The skill does offer additional damage early in the fight and considering a big chunk of the rest of the fight we are using an execute it seems pretty decent.0
