[PvP] mDK changes in 3.3.2

Joy_Division · January 2018

At this point, I'd be willing to pay to see Duke and the DKs in this thread duel to settle their arguments on the battlefield.

Edit: sort of serious. I'm very curious to see how a resto/destro DK would fare against the NA meta builds.

Trashs1 · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

At this point, I'd be willing to pay to see Duke and the DKs in this thread duel to settle their arguments on the battlefield.

as a huge fan of dduke and his a way funnier to play build as the standard mdk...im also in

*takes a seat and opens a bag of popcorn, shares the popcorn with joy"

FlamingBeard · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

At this point, I'd be willing to pay to see Duke and the DKs in this thread duel to settle their arguments on the battlefield.

Duke simply poses no threat to some of those dudes and I can vouch for that as I’ve seen them in action.

I just don’t understand how someone can justify such a huge nerf to their own class by saying “well this destro/resto play style and build works alright against pugs” when what the others want is a reasonably balanced skill for using against actual good players, not just against CP300’s that spam light attacks until they die.

Sharee · January 2018

From what i understand the primary reason for the powerlash cooldown was the fact it could be used too many times in a row without the offbalance being consumed. But this change combined with the fact it is now dodgeable results in too few powerlashes instead.

How about making it so that powerlash only goes on cooldown if it actually deals damage? Its still dodgeable, the goal of preventing subsequent powerlashes is still met, but the "stacking penalty" of cooldown+dodgeable is gone.

DKsUnite · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

At this point, I'd be willing to pay to see Duke and the DKs in this thread duel to settle their arguments on the battlefield.

problem is dueling is not representative of open world which is basically the whole argument of this entire thread....

In outnumbered situations, I need to be able to power lash multiple people consecutively and have it guaranteed because i need the HoT to survive.

I need the dmg to be undodgable simply because the rolly polly builds are stam who hit hard as *** and i need to pressure them while i fend off 4 others. A power lash is the difference between a stam char having to disengage and heal and continuing their assault. That is a huge difference when fighting outnumbered.

More specifically, while I would love to be able to stack my SD to 4k and wear skoria and kill players with a 15k whip tooltip as they come in 1 by 1, I cant because this isn't what open world cyro is. This is what duels and BGs (to an extent) are. Open world solo cyro is players coming in groups of 4+, bombarding you with debuffs and roots and snares. How long do you think a 10k ward would last in a situation like this? Not long. How long do you think me blocking and healing would last in a situation like this? Probably alot longer.

So my only option is to spec into block reduction at the expense of my damage in hopes to survive this and get my combo off when they make mistakes yet my combo (and heals to an extent) literally ride on power lash being undodgable. This change takes away too much of a mDK's power.

rustic_potato · January 2018

Sharee wrote: »

From what i understand the primary reason for the powerlash cooldown was the fact it could be used too many times in a row without the offbalance being consumed. But this change combined with the fact it is now dodgeable results in too few powerlashes instead.

How about making it so that powerlash only goes on cooldown if it actually deals damage? Its still dodgeable, the goal of preventing subsequent powerlashes is still met, but the "stacking penalty" of cooldown+dodgeable is gone.

Hey stop making reasonable suggestions. Then we get no drama.

DKsUnite · January 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

From what i understand the primary reason for the powerlash cooldown was the fact it could be used too many times in a row without the offbalance being consumed. But this change combined with the fact it is now dodgeable results in too few powerlashes instead.

How about making it so that powerlash only goes on cooldown if it actually deals damage? Its still dodgeable, the goal of preventing subsequent powerlashes is still met, but the "stacking penalty" of cooldown+dodgeable is gone.

Hey stop making reasonable suggestions. Then we get no drama.

If only the developers made reasonable suggestions then we could always have no drama

Feanor · January 2018

Well, you all just see this from the perspective that you need to be able to kill tanky players. This is a desperate spiral down into destruction. When more and more abilities become undodgeable even more players will seek ways to get tankier, which in turn demands for even more damage and less ways to escape it. On the other side of the fence you have the squishy builds. Sure, it’s a choice if you build that way, but again it’s not healthy for the game if everyone is forced to turtle up to live more than 3 seconds.

With those builds it’s either your burst is enough to kill (hello NBs) or you’re dead when it’s not. Or you don’t engage at all or hope that a CC and disengaging will bring you out of range (good luck with that considering Talons/Fossilize/Chains). While @DDuke thinks it’s a good thing DKs will be stronger vs shield users I think it’s not. It forces shield stacking even more.

The less options players have the less fun combat will be.

Ragnaroek93 · January 2018

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos wrote: »

Actually, 2 years ago there was a handfull of stamblades (in medium armor) in eu able to properly duel top tier mag dks.
You think the that amount has or will shift any with some ideas brought forward?

In medium armor you cannot outheal incoming damage what ever you do.

You can. Run Troll King.

Medium Stamblade is not a duel spec. The premise that you want to go toe-to-toe with literally, a direct counter(tanky spec that applies sustained pressure) is counter-intuitive to the actual strengths you get by playing in such a way. You are supposed to be evasive and selective of your targets. That is why NBs have all this burst that come with defile on a silver platter just to make their job even easier.

If you want to brawl against a brawler, then adapt and put troll king on. Or run Heavy armor. All these arguments are tunnel visioned on dueling, and omit actual open world premise. All because of bias. And ego lol, oh yes. Ego.

But it used to be viable in duels, there is no reason why it shouldn't be viable in duels and you completely missed out the point as well: It's not about dueling it's about locking down a complete armor type. Troll King on medium armor only help against clown Dks with 3x block cost reduction.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos wrote: »

Actually, 2 years ago there was a handfull of stamblades (in medium armor) in eu able to properly duel top tier mag dks.
You think the that amount has or will shift any with some ideas brought forward?

In medium armor you cannot outheal incoming damage what ever you do.

If you want to brawl against a brawler, then adapt and put troll king on. Or run Heavy armor. All these arguments are tunnel visioned on dueling, and omit actual open world premise. All because of bias. And ego lol, oh yes. Ego.

So you tell others to l2p, you say 10 times that duels doesn't matter and presume others to have a big ego. And you do that while you are someone who uploads 1v1 EXPOSING videos on youtube. What a sarcastic joke... Gz mate, you just exposed yourself as a clown who can't be taken serious.

Seems like the argument "duels don't matter" only comes from people who actually run around in a duel build with 50k max magicka and shieldstacking

Kilandros wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Seriously, start coming up with actual arguments instead of "I want to play my stand your ground playstyle and therefore I will win while you lose" and start seeing the other side of the medal. I don't know anybody who doesn't play mag Dk and rates it as fun to play against this class.

Change that for:

I'd like to play mDK, which has a unique playstyle where their skills resonate with each other while still having counter play.

As I said, stamblades have a hard encounter against mDKs. But in all honesty, if you can't outheal or OUTPLAY (and this is the important term) any mDK by keeping your distance, bursting when necessary, using your own dots, your access to defile and one of the most powerful ults in the game I am terribly sorry... but that's an L2P issue (not saying its your case)

We can't nerf classes simply because people don't take their time to learn how to fight against it.

I'm sorry if I sounded rude or agressive, that's not my objective here. I just can't put it better...

Refuses to play with a gapcloser and tells others to L2P. And here we go again. It's *** game design if you have a class which is rolls over other classes just because some people want to play their "stay your ground" (I prefer calling it "blockcast your opponent to death") playstyle. Try to play a medium armor build (for exmaple stamdk or stamsorc with a bow and you will realise how strong mag Dk actually is).

So we went from a "constructive thread" down to: If you can't handle mag Dks you need to l2p. Yeah sure. If you can't handle a petsorc you need to l2p as well. Kappa.

It's also your fault for choosing to play a squishy medium stamblade armor build. You don't get to have the highest burst in the game AND also being able to stand toe-to-toe with a tanky built DK. Get real. If you want to run a build capable of bursting someone down from 30k to 0 health before that person even knows you're in their vicinity then you also have to live with the consequences of being a full glass canon Stamblade. But you don't get to have insane damage with the same survivability of a S&B Magicka DK.

There are plenty of people running heavy armor Stamblades with high but not extreme burst who are still tanky as hell. The compromise of running a glass canon build is you're squishy. Don't blame DK mechanics because your squishy build dies when it fails to properly execute its burst.

You completely miss the point. There is zero difference in playing a medium armor build which utilizes dodgeroll as defense or playing a full damage med armor build with no regen at all because my defense is completely negated by a mag Dk (actually it's even better to not roll at all lol). It is simply not possible to build for more defense my medium armor build because medium doesn't have any defense against your class. This isn't about stamblades, nor is it about duels, it is about one class which is able to lock down the whole defense from a whole armor type. (Embers -> Skoria -> Fossilize -> Power Lash -> Leap: None of that is dodgeable and this has exactly nothing to do with duels nor stamblades, it would be similar to a whole burst combo which completely ignores block - would this be a "mechanically, well-thought, interesting general playstyles" as well in your opinion?).

Instead of actually making suggestions which could improve the gaming experience overall the OP writes an essay about why Power Lash needs to be undodgeable. Seriously dude? Are you so afraid that medium armor builds (which are the easiest builds to kill for a mag Dk, PERIOD) will wreck you now after ONE of your abilities is dodgeable? Instead of trying to help the PvE mag Dk community which really needs some love you come up with that. I guess magicka Dk in PvP will never be balanced unless you get 1) complete imunity against all ranged builds 2) smash everyone who is meele and 3) are able to permablock and nuke 20 people again by smashing the ultimate button with dynamic ultgen.

I wonder if you two also think that 5x Power Lash in a row and Zaan is balanced. Thanks a lot for making it clear that you think that I shouldn't be able to compete with your Dk in medium armor (even tho this wasn't always the case and I don't know why you think so). But yeah, duels doesn't matter unless some clowns want to expose someone, then duels suddenly matter everything.

I don't think I'm missing the point at all. Many of your concerns RE: medium armor are well founded but they are entirely misdirected; mDK isn't the problem with medium armor, medium armor is the problem with medium armor.

The fact is, medium armor is underperforming and virtually extinct in Cyrodiil outside of niche NB (read: Gankblades / Dodgeblades) and Stamplar builds who understand that running medium armor in the current meta means you need to be able to burst down whatever opponent you're fighting if you hope to win the fight. That's not just DKs--that's pretty much every class that you face if you're wearing medium armor. I spend a lot of time playing a medium armor Stamplar and I LOVE the class and the playstyle but I understand the tradeoffs I'm making to have that kind of insane damage. Presumably other stamblades and stamplars also understand the tradeoff. You seem to think that tradeoff shouldn't exist, that squishy class canon medium armor stam builds should also stand toe-to-toe with a tanky DK--I disagree, but that's kind of irrelevant here. The fact is, undodgeable Power Lash is neither breaking nor making the medium armor stamina playstyle. I understand that you feel Power Lash gives mDK a particular advantage when fighting someone who relies on dodge roll, but I can assure you medium armor users have various advantages that they also benefit from when fighting magicka DKs, like high burst and easy access to major defile. It's *** for tat.

So yes, I understand many of your concerns about medium but your concerns about the medium-armor playstyle are not made nor broken by the existence of mDK. Sorry, but that's just a fact.

Furthermore, you choose to run medium despite it being very underpowered right now when virtually every other stam build has moved on to heavy armor which is performing extremely well if not overperforming on stamina. If you want very high but not extreme burst and the ability to soak up considerable damage, I suggest you try some of the heavy armor stamblade builds that are currently tearing it up in Cyrodiil.

Either way, your anger is unfounded. You can continue to pretend that mDK is the problem and in so doing medium armor will continue to be underpowered across the board. Or you could channel some of your energy into getting medium armor buffed so that that playstyle becomes viable again. Your call. I know what I'd be focusing on achieving.

Fair enough. I play medium armor because I enjoy the playstyle more than playing a heavy armor Troll King build who stacks bleeds (and I'm pretty sure that it's no fun at all to play against such a build as well).
Mag Dk is of course not the problem of medium armor being but undodgeable skills, nerfed healing and more and more pressure/damage with every update are (while the defense mechanics of medium armor don't get adjusted). Just look at that Zaan set: You will be rewarded with a kill if you can manage to stay in a huge 10 metre range during the proc... what the hell.

DDuke · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

At this point, I'd be willing to pay to see Duke and the DKs in this thread duel to settle their arguments on the battlefield.

Edit: sort of serious. I'm very curious to see how a resto/destro DK would fare against the NA meta builds.

Well that'd be amusing, considering I have a 100% win rate against S&B blocktards (the build I guarantee all of these complainers are playing).

A S&B DK (dueled plenty on EU) doesn't have the necessary dmg to get through Healing Ward in a 1v1 scenario and cannot compete with Elemental Drain sustain.

DKsUnite wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

At this point, I'd be willing to pay to see Duke and the DKs in this thread duel to settle their arguments on the battlefield.

problem is dueling is not representative of open world which is basically the whole argument of this entire thread....

In outnumbered situations, I need to be able to power lash multiple people consecutively and have it guaranteed because i need the HoT to survive.

I need the dmg to be undodgable simply because the rolly polly builds are stam who hit hard as *** and i need to pressure them while i fend off 4 others. A power lash is the difference between a stam char having to disengage and heal and continuing their assault. That is a huge difference when fighting outnumbered.

More specifically, while I would love to be able to stack my SD to 4k and wear skoria and kill players with a 15k whip tooltip as they come in 1 by 1, I cant because this isn't what open world cyro is. This is what duels and BGs (to an extent) are. Open world solo cyro is players coming in groups of 4+, bombarding you with debuffs and roots and snares. How long do you think a 10k ward would last in a situation like this? Not long. How long do you think me blocking and healing would last in a situation like this? Probably alot longer.

So my only option is to spec into block reduction at the expense of my damage in hopes to survive this and get my combo off when they make mistakes yet my combo (and heals to an extent) literally ride on power lash being undodgable. This change takes away too much of a mDK's power.

You'll be able to Power Lash other builds than dodge rollers twice as often as before and Flame Lash now has 2x longer heal duration, that not enough survivability for you? I do hope you've actually tested things on PTS, mDK in general is way stronger than before.

As for how my build survives 4+ people at the same time... it doesn't, not for long anyway. Not without LOS.
It does kill people twice as fast though, so these pugs rarely pile up on me like they would on a S&B build that takes 30 seconds to kill one opponent.

Subversus · January 2018

I don't wanna get involved into this discussion even though I already have my own opinions made up on this but:

@DDuke let's take this hypothetical situation in mind. Imagine I was in an Xv1 group on my heavy magblade against you. I recently found out of a way to snare a player to 90% as a magicka nightblade and it works very consistently.

We caught you in open field, there's a LOS tree like 60 meters away. I snare you to 90%, you can barely move, the others in my Xv1 group are beating on you. How do you plan on running to that tree to LOS my snare and kill the pugs in my group? Chain to it?

Look no hard feelings, I just don't understand how you can call chain a good mobility skill when it obviously isn't. It's a gap closer not a skill used to maneuver and kite zergs like streak (or even mist form).

DDuke · January 2018

Subversus wrote: »

I don't wanna get involved into this discussion even though I already have my own opinions made up on this but:

@DDuke let's take this hypothetical situation in mind. Imagine I was in an Xv1 group on my heavy magblade against you. I recently found out of a way to snare a player to 90% as a magicka nightblade and it works very consistently.

We caught you in open field, there's a LOS tree like 60 meters away. I snare you to 90%, you can barely move, the others in my Xv1 group are beating on you. How do you plan on running to that tree to LOS my snare and kill the pugs in my group? Chain to it?

Look no hard feelings, I just don't understand how you can call chain a good mobility skill when it obviously isn't. It's a gap closer not a skill used to maneuver and kite zergs like streak (or even mist form).

It's not an escape tool (well, sometimes it is) if that's what you mean. It is used as offensive tool mostly, mobility to chase people, not escape them.

Coincidentally, it counters all of those other abilities you mentioned.

If I'm in a 1vX situation that I can't win, I die. It's the same for all classes, some can try escape when opponent group composition is right, but that's about it.

A dodgeable Power Lash doesn't change things one way or the other.

Feanor · January 2018

Subversus wrote: »

I don't wanna get involved into this discussion even though I already have my own opinions made up on this but:

@DDuke let's take this hypothetical situation in mind. Imagine I was in an Xv1 group on my heavy magblade against you. I recently found out of a way to snare a player to 90% as a magicka nightblade and it works very consistently.

We caught you in open field, there's a LOS tree like 60 meters away. I snare you to 90%, you can barely move, the others in my Xv1 group are beating on you. How do you plan on running to that tree to LOS my snare and kill the pugs in my group? Chain to it?

Look no hard feelings, I just don't understand how you can call chain a good mobility skill when it obviously isn't. It's a gap closer not a skill used to maneuver and kite zergs like streak (or even mist form).

In that described scenario only Forward Momentum, Mistform, Efficient Purge, Purify, or Rapids would give you a chance of surviving. No class skill whatsoever would help you out, it’s not the fault of chains.

FlamingBeard · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I don't wanna get involved into this discussion even though I already have my own opinions made up on this but:

@DDuke let's take this hypothetical situation in mind. Imagine I was in an Xv1 group on my heavy magblade against you. I recently found out of a way to snare a player to 90% as a magicka nightblade and it works very consistently.

We caught you in open field, there's a LOS tree like 60 meters away. I snare you to 90%, you can barely move, the others in my Xv1 group are beating on you. How do you plan on running to that tree to LOS my snare and kill the pugs in my group? Chain to it?

Look no hard feelings, I just don't understand how you can call chain a good mobility skill when it obviously isn't. It's a gap closer not a skill used to maneuver and kite zergs like streak (or even mist form).

In that described scenario only Forward Momentum, Mistform, Efficient Purge, Purify, or Rapids would give you a chance of surviving. No class skill whatsoever would help you out, it’s not the fault of chains.

I think what they're saying is that you have a death wish if you run Chains instead of Elusive Mist on MagDK outside of 1v1 situations, which 99% of MagDK players will agree with (Duke is the other 1%).

ak_pvp · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I don't wanna get involved into this discussion even though I already have my own opinions made up on this but:

@DDuke let's take this hypothetical situation in mind. Imagine I was in an Xv1 group on my heavy magblade against you. I recently found out of a way to snare a player to 90% as a magicka nightblade and it works very consistently.

We caught you in open field, there's a LOS tree like 60 meters away. I snare you to 90%, you can barely move, the others in my Xv1 group are beating on you. How do you plan on running to that tree to LOS my snare and kill the pugs in my group? Chain to it?

Look no hard feelings, I just don't understand how you can call chain a good mobility skill when it obviously isn't. It's a gap closer not a skill used to maneuver and kite zergs like streak (or even mist form).

In that described scenario only Forward Momentum, Mistform, Efficient Purge, Purify, or Rapids would give you a chance of surviving. No class skill whatsoever would help you out, it’s not the fault of chains.

I think what they're saying is that you have a death wish if you run Chains instead of Elusive Mist on MagDK outside of 1v1 situations, which 99% of MagDK players will agree with (Duke is the other 1%).

Mist is pretty trash, so. I get what Duke is saying. If you 100% need mist to get you to some safer distance alive. Then you will probably die anyway as you arrive with low mag and having been pressured.

I only use if running heavy.

FlamingBeard · January 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I don't wanna get involved into this discussion even though I already have my own opinions made up on this but:

@DDuke let's take this hypothetical situation in mind. Imagine I was in an Xv1 group on my heavy magblade against you. I recently found out of a way to snare a player to 90% as a magicka nightblade and it works very consistently.

We caught you in open field, there's a LOS tree like 60 meters away. I snare you to 90%, you can barely move, the others in my Xv1 group are beating on you. How do you plan on running to that tree to LOS my snare and kill the pugs in my group? Chain to it?

Look no hard feelings, I just don't understand how you can call chain a good mobility skill when it obviously isn't. It's a gap closer not a skill used to maneuver and kite zergs like streak (or even mist form).

In that described scenario only Forward Momentum, Mistform, Efficient Purge, Purify, or Rapids would give you a chance of surviving. No class skill whatsoever would help you out, it’s not the fault of chains.

I think what they're saying is that you have a death wish if you run Chains instead of Elusive Mist on MagDK outside of 1v1 situations, which 99% of MagDK players will agree with (Duke is the other 1%).

Mist is pretty trash, so. I get what Duke is saying. If you 100% need mist to get you to some safer distance alive. Then you will probably die anyway as you arrive with low mag and having been pressured.

I only use if running heavy.

I didn't say Elusive Mist is a great skill, but it's more useful than Chains for getting away from and around dangerous situations, for both magicka Dragonknight and magicka Templar. We simply have no better escape mechanisms.

Carbonised · January 2018

Sharee wrote: »

From what i understand the primary reason for the powerlash cooldown was the fact it could be used too many times in a row without the offbalance being consumed. But this change combined with the fact it is now dodgeable results in too few powerlashes instead.

How about making it so that powerlash only goes on cooldown if it actually deals damage? Its still dodgeable, the goal of preventing subsequent powerlashes is still met, but the "stacking penalty" of cooldown+dodgeable is gone.

This would be the sensible thing to do. Hence it will never happen.

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

At this point, I'd be willing to pay to see Duke and the DKs in this thread duel to settle their arguments on the battlefield.

Duke simply poses no threat to some of those dudes and I can vouch for that as I’ve seen them in action.

I just don’t understand how someone can justify such a huge nerf to their own class by saying “well this destro/resto play style and build works alright against pugs” when what the others want is a reasonably balanced skill for using against actual good players, not just against CP300’s that spam light attacks until they die.

Man come on, this isnt about "nerfing their own class" this is about having OVERALL balance between classes and armor weights.

And, yes he is a big threat to any player... but whatever not the point.

Subversus · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I don't wanna get involved into this discussion even though I already have my own opinions made up on this but:

@DDuke let's take this hypothetical situation in mind. Imagine I was in an Xv1 group on my heavy magblade against you. I recently found out of a way to snare a player to 90% as a magicka nightblade and it works very consistently.

We caught you in open field, there's a LOS tree like 60 meters away. I snare you to 90%, you can barely move, the others in my Xv1 group are beating on you. How do you plan on running to that tree to LOS my snare and kill the pugs in my group? Chain to it?

Look no hard feelings, I just don't understand how you can call chain a good mobility skill when it obviously isn't. It's a gap closer not a skill used to maneuver and kite zergs like streak (or even mist form).

In that described scenario only Forward Momentum, Mistform, Efficient Purge, Purify, or Rapids would give you a chance of surviving. No class skill whatsoever would help you out, it’s not the fault of chains.

Exactly what I'm saying. I can't see a single situation in open world where mist form would be worse than chains. Sure, in duels it can work, but when you get chased around by zergs there is no way I'd slot a gap closer instead of it.

I don't slot ambush on my magblade instead of mist form...

This is my only pet peeve with the argument in this thread, claiming that a gap closer is a viable solution to magDK's lack of mobility - it isn't. That's not what 'mobility' means imo.

Regarding the other part about power lash I do agree with Duke, the fact that you can now relatively chain them back to back is better than what it was on live unless you specifically built for chaining them, and the fact that it's now dodgeable is a nerf we can all agree on.

DDuke · January 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I don't wanna get involved into this discussion even though I already have my own opinions made up on this but:

@DDuke let's take this hypothetical situation in mind. Imagine I was in an Xv1 group on my heavy magblade against you. I recently found out of a way to snare a player to 90% as a magicka nightblade and it works very consistently.

We caught you in open field, there's a LOS tree like 60 meters away. I snare you to 90%, you can barely move, the others in my Xv1 group are beating on you. How do you plan on running to that tree to LOS my snare and kill the pugs in my group? Chain to it?

Look no hard feelings, I just don't understand how you can call chain a good mobility skill when it obviously isn't. It's a gap closer not a skill used to maneuver and kite zergs like streak (or even mist form).

In that described scenario only Forward Momentum, Mistform, Efficient Purge, Purify, or Rapids would give you a chance of surviving. No class skill whatsoever would help you out, it’s not the fault of chains.

Exactly what I'm saying. I can't see a single situation in open world where mist form would be worse than chains. Sure, in duels it can work, but when you get chased around by zergs there is no way I'd slot a gap closer instead of it.

Well, Chains are far better than Mist Form when you're chasing people.

Takes far longer to reach people with Mist Form, and you deal no damage while chasing someone with it - this allows dodge rollers for instance to heal up with Vigor or Rally.

I guess it's a matter of what you prefer: being able to escape zergs better or being able to get more kills.

Subversus wrote: »

I don't slot ambush on my magblade instead of mist form...

Ranged or melee? On melee magblade I think Lotus Fan isn't a bad skill to slot, I've done some testing on a melee magblade for next patch and cloak->lotus fan (doesn't break cloak)+concealed is pretty deadly when combined with certain sets

Plays very much like old school stamblade, so naturally I'm excited to play that build.

Subversus wrote: »

This is my only pet peeve with the argument in this thread, claiming that a gap closer is a viable solution to magDK's lack of mobility - it isn't. That's not what 'mobility' means imo.

It's different kind of mobility, or atleast that's how I perceive it.

Mobility:
Escape tools
Gap closers
Speed buffs

Jjitsuboy98 · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I don't wanna get involved into this discussion even though I already have my own opinions made up on this but:

@DDuke let's take this hypothetical situation in mind. Imagine I was in an Xv1 group on my heavy magblade against you. I recently found out of a way to snare a player to 90% as a magicka nightblade and it works very consistently.

We caught you in open field, there's a LOS tree like 60 meters away. I snare you to 90%, you can barely move, the others in my Xv1 group are beating on you. How do you plan on running to that tree to LOS my snare and kill the pugs in my group? Chain to it?

Look no hard feelings, I just don't understand how you can call chain a good mobility skill when it obviously isn't. It's a gap closer not a skill used to maneuver and kite zergs like streak (or even mist form).

In that described scenario only Forward Momentum, Mistform, Efficient Purge, Purify, or Rapids would give you a chance of surviving. No class skill whatsoever would help you out, it’s not the fault of chains.

I think what they're saying is that you have a death wish if you run Chains instead of Elusive Mist on MagDK outside of 1v1 situations, which 99% of MagDK players will agree with (Duke is the other 1%).

Mist is garbage. There are plenty of dks who don't run it anymore.

Subversus · January 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I don't wanna get involved into this discussion even though I already have my own opinions made up on this but:

@DDuke let's take this hypothetical situation in mind. Imagine I was in an Xv1 group on my heavy magblade against you. I recently found out of a way to snare a player to 90% as a magicka nightblade and it works very consistently.

We caught you in open field, there's a LOS tree like 60 meters away. I snare you to 90%, you can barely move, the others in my Xv1 group are beating on you. How do you plan on running to that tree to LOS my snare and kill the pugs in my group? Chain to it?

Look no hard feelings, I just don't understand how you can call chain a good mobility skill when it obviously isn't. It's a gap closer not a skill used to maneuver and kite zergs like streak (or even mist form).

In that described scenario only Forward Momentum, Mistform, Efficient Purge, Purify, or Rapids would give you a chance of surviving. No class skill whatsoever would help you out, it’s not the fault of chains.

Exactly what I'm saying. I can't see a single situation in open world where mist form would be worse than chains. Sure, in duels it can work, but when you get chased around by zergs there is no way I'd slot a gap closer instead of it.

Well, Chains are far better than Mist Form when you're chasing people.

Takes far longer to reach people with Mist Form, and you deal no damage while chasing someone with it - this allows dodge rollers for instance to heal up with Vigor or Rally.

I guess it's a matter of what you prefer: being able to escape zergs better or being able to get more kills.

Subversus wrote: »

I don't slot ambush on my magblade instead of mist form...

Ranged or melee? On melee magblade I think Lotus Fan isn't a bad skill to slot, I've done some testing on a melee magblade for next patch and cloak->lotus fan (doesn't break cloak)+concealed is pretty deadly when combined with certain sets

Plays very much like old school stamblade, so naturally I'm excited to play that build.

Subversus wrote: »

This is my only pet peeve with the argument in this thread, claiming that a gap closer is a viable solution to magDK's lack of mobility - it isn't. That's not what 'mobility' means imo.

It's different kind of mobility, or atleast that's how I perceive it.

Mobility:
Escape tools
Gap closers
Speed buffs

Yeah next patch is gonna be pretty fun for melee magblades with the new proc sets.

Moglijuana · January 2018

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I don't wanna get involved into this discussion even though I already have my own opinions made up on this but:

@DDuke let's take this hypothetical situation in mind. Imagine I was in an Xv1 group on my heavy magblade against you. I recently found out of a way to snare a player to 90% as a magicka nightblade and it works very consistently.

We caught you in open field, there's a LOS tree like 60 meters away. I snare you to 90%, you can barely move, the others in my Xv1 group are beating on you. How do you plan on running to that tree to LOS my snare and kill the pugs in my group? Chain to it?

Look no hard feelings, I just don't understand how you can call chain a good mobility skill when it obviously isn't. It's a gap closer not a skill used to maneuver and kite zergs like streak (or even mist form).

In that described scenario only Forward Momentum, Mistform, Efficient Purge, Purify, or Rapids would give you a chance of surviving. No class skill whatsoever would help you out, it’s not the fault of chains.

I think what they're saying is that you have a death wish if you run Chains instead of Elusive Mist on MagDK outside of 1v1 situations, which 99% of MagDK players will agree with (Duke is the other 1%).

Mist is garbage. There are plenty of dks who don't run it anymore.

Mist form has never left my bar for open world. Since day one. How else you gona live through 2 meteors and a dawnbreaker in L.A. without anything to LOS around. Block? lol

I've actually been playing with chains AND mist in open world recently and its amazing how much offensive + defensive mobility helps MDK.

Side note: You guys do realize shield strength is increased while in mist too right? Pop a Harness into a dodge rolled Healing ward into a mist. You'll literally take no damage and healing ward will pop as soon as mist finishes.

1v1/BG's? No need to kite. Slot chains like the dirty DK you are

FlamingBeard · January 2018

Moglijuana wrote: »

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I don't wanna get involved into this discussion even though I already have my own opinions made up on this but:

@DDuke let's take this hypothetical situation in mind. Imagine I was in an Xv1 group on my heavy magblade against you. I recently found out of a way to snare a player to 90% as a magicka nightblade and it works very consistently.

We caught you in open field, there's a LOS tree like 60 meters away. I snare you to 90%, you can barely move, the others in my Xv1 group are beating on you. How do you plan on running to that tree to LOS my snare and kill the pugs in my group? Chain to it?

Look no hard feelings, I just don't understand how you can call chain a good mobility skill when it obviously isn't. It's a gap closer not a skill used to maneuver and kite zergs like streak (or even mist form).

In that described scenario only Forward Momentum, Mistform, Efficient Purge, Purify, or Rapids would give you a chance of surviving. No class skill whatsoever would help you out, it’s not the fault of chains.

I think what they're saying is that you have a death wish if you run Chains instead of Elusive Mist on MagDK outside of 1v1 situations, which 99% of MagDK players will agree with (Duke is the other 1%).

Mist is garbage. There are plenty of dks who don't run it anymore.

Mist form has never left my bar for open world. Since day one. How else you gona live through 2 meteors and a dawnbreaker in L.A. without anything to LOS around. Block? lol

You guys do realize shield strength is increased while in mist too right? Pop a Harness into a dodge rolled Healing ward into a mist. You'll literally take no damage and healing ward will pop as soon as mist finishes.

1v1/BG's? No need to kite. Slot chains like the dirty DK you are.

Watching a MagDK run around obstacles on foot and spamming the Light's Champion button before it's even built up is anxiety-inducing, because he's just making things more difficult for himself unnecessarily and creating situations where he has to put all energy into trying to survive while at 2% health with only the delayed and unreliable heal from Healing Ward until he can reactivate that Light's Champion button.

It's no fluke that Elusive Mist has seen tremendous usage on MagDK and MagPlar, because they both lack escape mechanisms and you can't solve that problem with a silly gap closer.

So slot Chains if you really want to, MagDKs of Cyrodiil, but make room for Elusive Mist as well unless you have a death wish.

Moglijuana · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I don't wanna get involved into this discussion even though I already have my own opinions made up on this but:

@DDuke let's take this hypothetical situation in mind. Imagine I was in an Xv1 group on my heavy magblade against you. I recently found out of a way to snare a player to 90% as a magicka nightblade and it works very consistently.

We caught you in open field, there's a LOS tree like 60 meters away. I snare you to 90%, you can barely move, the others in my Xv1 group are beating on you. How do you plan on running to that tree to LOS my snare and kill the pugs in my group? Chain to it?

Look no hard feelings, I just don't understand how you can call chain a good mobility skill when it obviously isn't. It's a gap closer not a skill used to maneuver and kite zergs like streak (or even mist form).

In that described scenario only Forward Momentum, Mistform, Efficient Purge, Purify, or Rapids would give you a chance of surviving. No class skill whatsoever would help you out, it’s not the fault of chains.

I think what they're saying is that you have a death wish if you run Chains instead of Elusive Mist on MagDK outside of 1v1 situations, which 99% of MagDK players will agree with (Duke is the other 1%).

Mist is garbage. There are plenty of dks who don't run it anymore.

Mist form has never left my bar for open world. Since day one. How else you gona live through 2 meteors and a dawnbreaker in L.A. without anything to LOS around. Block? lol

You guys do realize shield strength is increased while in mist too right? Pop a Harness into a dodge rolled Healing ward into a mist. You'll literally take no damage and healing ward will pop as soon as mist finishes.

1v1/BG's? No need to kite. Slot chains like the dirty DK you are.

Watching a MagDK run around obstacles on foot and spamming the Light's Champion button before it's even built up is anxiety-inducing, because he's just making things more difficult for himself unnecessarily and creating situations where he has to put all energy into trying to survive while at 2% health with only the delayed and unreliable heal from Healing Ward until he can reactivate that Light's Champion button.

It's no fluke that Elusive Mist has seen tremendous usage on MagDK and MagPlar, because they both lack escape mechanisms and you can't solve that problem with a silly gap closer.

So slot Chains if you really want to, MagDKs of Cyrodiil, but make room for Elusive Mist as well unless you have a death wish.

Yea for open world, especially playing as a solo MDK (yea we still out here) mist form is essential for repositioning. Escaping is never a thought of mine cuz I'm a motha fu**in DRAGON BOI! But chilling in a super tanky ball of smoke with shields up waiting for that last 3 ult is too juicy.

So like, since whip is dodgeable now...can we get evasion back in Ash Cloud? lolol.

krathos · January 2018

All you MDKs are playing in 2018 while im out here in the year 3000 running fwd momentum and speed pots on my magdk.

... somebody please give us something for mobility.

DDuke · January 2018

By all means, slot Mist Form - all the more reason to slot Chains to counter people trying to escape in that :P

I don't think it's a bad skill for mDK, I just happen to value Engulfing Flames/Scales (only slot that isn't "locked" on my build) more.
I know plenty of good mDKs who use Mist Form instead.

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I don't wanna get involved into this discussion even though I already have my own opinions made up on this but:

@DDuke let's take this hypothetical situation in mind. Imagine I was in an Xv1 group on my heavy magblade against you. I recently found out of a way to snare a player to 90% as a magicka nightblade and it works very consistently.

We caught you in open field, there's a LOS tree like 60 meters away. I snare you to 90%, you can barely move, the others in my Xv1 group are beating on you. How do you plan on running to that tree to LOS my snare and kill the pugs in my group? Chain to it?

Look no hard feelings, I just don't understand how you can call chain a good mobility skill when it obviously isn't. It's a gap closer not a skill used to maneuver and kite zergs like streak (or even mist form).

In that described scenario only Forward Momentum, Mistform, Efficient Purge, Purify, or Rapids would give you a chance of surviving. No class skill whatsoever would help you out, it’s not the fault of chains.

I think what they're saying is that you have a death wish if you run Chains instead of Elusive Mist on MagDK outside of 1v1 situations, which 99% of MagDK players will agree with (Duke is the other 1%).

Mist is garbage. There are plenty of dks who don't run it anymore.

Mist form has never left my bar for open world. Since day one. How else you gona live through 2 meteors and a dawnbreaker in L.A. without anything to LOS around. Block? lol

You guys do realize shield strength is increased while in mist too right? Pop a Harness into a dodge rolled Healing ward into a mist. You'll literally take no damage and healing ward will pop as soon as mist finishes.

1v1/BG's? No need to kite. Slot chains like the dirty DK you are.

Watching a MagDK run around obstacles on foot and spamming the Light's Champion button before it's even built up is anxiety-inducing, because he's just making things more difficult for himself unnecessarily and creating situations where he has to put all energy into trying to survive while at 2% health with only the delayed and unreliable heal from Healing Ward until he can reactivate that Light's Champion button.

Life Giver* btw, that ulti cast will keep you alive much longer than Light's Champion thanks to the free Mutagen & Healing Ward. It also casts Combat Prayer, which means you don't really lose much (if any) damage compared to Light's Champion.

The free mutagen practically means you can try to burst people down without fear of dying long after your resto ulti is gone. That makes opponents greedy, as they think they can get a kill on you... and then the Mutagen heals you back up, removes a heal debuff or stun etc and you've got a kill because opponent overextended.

Moglijuana · January 2018

krathos wrote: »

All you MDKs are playing in 2018 while im out here in the year 3000 running fwd momentum and speed pots on my magdk.

... somebody please give us something for mobility.

Lol i tried that build out. It's actually hilarious how hard you hit haha. But yes I agree with you.

krathos · January 2018

In the end, these changes suck, they're uncalled for but the majority of people who complain about magdk in pvp are either duelers (where mdk is pretty strong) or PUGs who don't understand basic game mechanics and will be stomped regardless of what changes are made and they will continue to flock to the forums and complain that the big fat daddy DK spanked their ass back to oblivion. Same sort who still complain about sorc which is basically irrelevant now too.

DDuke · January 2018

krathos wrote: »

In the end, these changes suck, they're uncalled for but the majority of people who complain about magdk in pvp are either duelers (where mdk is pretty strong) or PUGs who don't understand basic game mechanics and will be stomped regardless of what changes are made and they will continue to flock to the forums and complain that the big fat daddy DK spanked their ass back to oblivion. Same sort who still complain about sorc which is basically irrelevant now too.

"uncalled for", people have been complaining about dodge roll (and by association medium armor) being useless for well over a year now. Maybe you haven't been paying attention?

Making the hardest hitting non-ultimate instant cast dodgeable goes a long way towards fixing that.

Besides, if you tested mDK on PTS & saw how much better it is against block builds & dmg shield builds now, you'd realize how ridiculous that childish complaining is.