The Meta must change ( Yes, another thread)

H3Li0S · January 2018

With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else, being limited with 10 skills among all the skill available is a complete joke. The game has too much useless skill, instead of making useless class like warden (I like the warden, i have 2 btw) they should work on the skill we already have and make changes, buff useless skill to make them viable. I would like to see a eso with more different build, not the must have build. Sure there will always be a build better than another but to a different level.

Why don't we have cooldown on skills ? Some instant cast(spammable) some with cooldown (most powerfull one), or just get rid of the damn class! We should be able to make what ever we want with our character like elder scroll always was. Unlock skill line with quest. They should add new skill to the skill line we already have instead of adding new class.

I like the game but im bored with the current meta and i know im not the only one.

DMuehlhausen · January 2018

H3Li0S wrote: »

With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else, being limited with 10 skills among all the skill available is a complete joke. The game has too much useless skill, instead of making useless class like warden (I like the warden, i have 2 btw) they should work on the skill we already have and make changes, buff useless skill to make them viable. I would like to see a eso with more different build, not the must have build. Sure there will always be a build better than another but to a different level.

Why don't we have cooldown on skills ? Some instant cast(spammable) some with cooldown (most powerfull one), or just get rid of the damn class! We should be able to make what ever we want with our character like elder scroll always was. Unlock skill line with quest. They should add new skill to the skill line we already have instead of adding new class.

I like the game but im bored with the current meta and i know im not the only one.

Other players force you to play the optimal build with class/race combination. Nothing in this game is impossible to do with some off the wall builds, other than vet Trials.

There are no cooldown on skills cause they want this game to feel like Elder Scrolls. None of the single player games have CDs on skills.

starlizard70ub17_ESO · January 2018

I guessing you're talking about PvP, but it doesn't matter since there's also a meta for PvE raids, pledges, etc. No matter what ZOS devs do or how they tweak skills, armor sets, etc, there's always going to be a few sets and skill rotations that will be slightly better then others. And by slightly better I mean .5% - 2% better. And the max/min players will find and use those sets and proclaim them as the newest meta. And of course the lemming hoards will follow them. Honestly when it comes down to 2% "better" or less, it is still more about player skill then anything else leading to success.

Kuramas9tails · January 2018

Just play a build you like and that's that. It's what I do.

Runefang · January 2018

Most half decent ideas will work if you can learn a workable rotation.

Jamini · January 2018

With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else

You are adorable when you are wrong.

Jamini goes off to nodeath speedrun vWGT with his stamina warden healing build

(The only place where you honestly should be playing meta are Vet Trials. That is it. Perhaps you just really suck at making good builds?)

xaraan · January 2018

The specifically said the game was built the way it was because they wanted players to make choices of what to use with limited skill bars and that they didn't want skill cool downs in the game. This isn't the game from you if you want to change fundamentals about it imo.

H3Li0S · January 2018

Jamini wrote: »

With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else

You are adorable when you are wrong.

Jamini goes off to nodeath speedrun vWGT with his stamina warden healing build

Ahhh you guys are so adorable when you can't face the truth and deny it.

But at least one is right, its not the game that forces you to play meta build, its probably the *** community we have.

QuebraRegra · January 2018

H3Li0S wrote: »

With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else, being limited with 10 skills among all the skill available is a complete joke. The game has too much useless skill, instead of making useless class like warden (I like the warden, i have 2 btw) they should work on the skill we already have and make changes, buff useless skill to make them viable. I would like to see a eso with more different build, not the must have build. Sure there will always be a build better than another but to a different level.

Why don't we have cooldown on skills ? Some instant cast(spammable) some with cooldown (most powerfull one), or just get rid of the damn class! We should be able to make what ever we want with our character like elder scroll always was. Unlock skill line with quest. They should add new skill to the skill line we already have instead of adding new class.

I like the game but im bored with the current meta and i know im not the only one.

A of of truth here, you should express your concerns to the lead combat designer. Historically they had intended the skills to have "CDs" of various lengths to prevent spamming, in the form of the delay you would experience in the casting animation which would play out between skills. They the player base discovered the animation cancelling exploit (as ZOS originally called it). ZOS worked to try and address it, and ultimately failed... at that time they proclaimed the bug was now official a "feature".

That's the historical fact.

The bar limits I assume were a console design limit... many MMOs, etc. have implemented systems to allow for more skill usage, beyond the controller button limitations... see STO, which uses auto cast skills based on a configurable criteria system (ie.cast shield whenever at < 20% health, etc.), and the cross hottbar system of FF, etc.

It's time to fix the skills that have been broken since launch (and re-balance the ones never used (determined by metrics analysis), and adjust the gearsets that are worthless.

But first, ZOS needs a new competent lead combat designer.... good luck on that.

xbobx · January 2018

I play the way i want, i just like suggestions.

Metas are for people that have little else going for them in life, imo. Or for people with ocd.

Vahrokh · January 2018

The "must play meta" is something that applies more to other MMOs than ESO.

It's also a popular opinion among mediocre players, who cannot take the responsibility of their being mediocre.

I've seen videos with people doing totally viable and similar (42-44k) DPS with a moltitude of different rotations and abilities mix ins. Sure, there are some "known bad" abilities but they are not as many as claimed.

The big problem imo, is that a guy dealing 20k DPS believes it's because he's not playing "meta", wheras if he specced and geared "meta" he'd do 22k. An excellent player would deal 42k instead of 44k, so what's different here: the "meta" or the player?

QuebraRegra · January 2018

Jamini wrote: »

With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else

You are adorable when you are wrong.

Jamini goes off to nodeath speedrun vWGT with his stamina warden healing build

(The only place where you honestly should be playing meta are Vet Trials. That is it. Perhaps you just really suck at making good builds?)

kicked how many times in vWGT?

DeadlyRecluse · January 2018

Cooldowns on skills?

More like "The core mechanics of the game must change," amirite?

Also, no.

Jamini · January 2018

H3Li0S wrote: »

Ahhh you guys are so adorable when you can't face the truth and deny it.

But at least one is right, its not the game that forces you to play meta build, its probably the *** community we have.

The only place you need an optimized build are in vet trials guilds, doing vet runs. Hell, even in vet trials you can get away with using a sub-optimal race as long as you meet other metrics. As long as you can fill the role you sign up for, nobody minds what you do.

The issue is not with the game, or it's community, its simply with your inability to make an unusual build function to the minimums that the groups you run with demand.

My own maxed toons, for reference:

1. Meta DK, with a non-tanking race. Completions for HMvSA, vAA, vHRC, vAS. Looking into jumping into my guild's vMoL run. Zero complaints or requests to racechange from trials guild. Stormproof. vDSA completion (working on flawless). This toon has about six sets he carries for various builds.
2. FrostTanking NB, with a non-tanking race. Taken through all vet DLC content without issue, solo-tanked nMoL (including twins), completed all normal trials.
3. Dunmer MagDK. Completions on all vetDLC except RoM, all normal trials, and vAA. Stormproof. I've done FP, offbalance, and powerlash builds with her and have gear for all of those.
4. Mostly meta petsorc. Stormproof (Best run so far was 13/15). Completions on all normal trails yadda yadda. vMA toon.
5. Stamina Warden. Has both DPS and healing sets availible. Healed all vet DLC (no HM RoM), DPSed vAA and vHRC on him. Healed all normal trials on him. Ended up backup healing in vHRC. vDSA completion. Occasionally tank with him for the lulz as well. Completely non-meta rotation that pulls 30k.
6. Meta Healer MagPlar. VetDLC and nTrials completed. Have not done vTrials with her due to a glut of healers and the group needing tanks more.

The only content that has no room for a non-meta build (without explicit permission from your guild leader) are vTrials. The rest is completely up to you and your capabilities as a player.

H3Li0S · January 2018

No cooldown? Fine i can live with that and i dont teally care but they should seriously fix the broken skill.

Takes-No-Prisoner · January 2018

I use my PvP gear in PvE (not for Vet stuff), am I doin' it right??

Milvan · January 2018

Why is people so afraid of meta and min/maxing?

Jhalin · January 2018

@Milvan cause they know they're unskilled and want to use their refusal to "metaslave" as an excuse for their poor mechanical knowledge of the game

Kuramas9tails · January 2018

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

I use my PvP gear in PvE (not for Vet stuff), am I doin' it right??

Whatever gets the dungeon done!

Yamakaziing · January 2018

they want you to jump on the band wagon is all

Aebaradath · January 2018

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

I use my PvP gear in PvE (not for Vet stuff), am I doin' it right??

Of course. If it gets the job done, it gets the job done.

Takes-No-Prisoner · January 2018

FYI, I make meta builds in PvP to keep my group alive, which is more demanding to have when you're always heavily out numbered in AvA. Outside of group play, it's free range to do whatever I want.

I recently grinded out lv10 mages guild with the hopes of running Lich/Caluurion's Legacy once the DLC hits. So I can play a MagNB melee ganker in PvP.

When shes grouped? Switch to Destro/DW Bomber set up. Because Vicious Death and my Ult bombs will save our lives when we're out numbered.

paulsimonps · January 2018

Meta is meta for a reason, its the min/max of pros and cons to find the best possible solution to deal the maximum amount of damage per second, its mainly just math. Why argue with math? There are tons of alternative builds that work for stuff too. I know for example that the leader of one of the top PC/NA Trial guilds, that have done vAS+2 No death speed run, did so one a build that is slightly off meta so he wouldn't have to run a heavy attack pet build on his mag sorc, cause they are boring.

There are ways to go off meta that still works to a degree, just got to find what works for you and that isn't completely nerfing yourself in the process. Theorycraft more instead of blaming the concept of meta for lack of options. There are always options, and meta is ever changing.

[minor edit for quote and ref to quote]

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

Jamini wrote: »

With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else

You are adorable when you are wrong.

Jamini goes off to nodeath speedrun vWGT with his stamina warden healing build

(The only place where you honestly should be playing meta are Vet Trials. That is it. Perhaps you just really suck at making good builds?)

Or perhaps the system is so confusing, and prone to having you screw yourself that people have just given up on doing so, and go watch Alcast, which thus perpetuates the 'meta' thoughtprocess causing the problem we have today?

The system has issues. It's why newbies develop this mentality. And it'll continue until you stop -shaming- them and do something usefull, like give advice.

@Jamini

I'm so amazed that people dont see how this mentality forms, considering they themselves through they're toxicity help to contribute to it. If the merest inquiry about builds, or the meta at large (REGUARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU THINK IT EXISTS OR NOT) results in shaming and insults, why would they bother thinking more about it? They'll just go look up a build. Thus, no new builds are produced, interesting advancing the system dies out. You make what you hate.

Animus-ESO · January 2018

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

I guessing you're talking about PvP, but it doesn't matter since there's also a meta for PvE raids, pledges, etc. No matter what ZOS devs do or how they tweak skills, armor sets, etc, there's always going to be a few sets and skill rotations that will be slightly better then others. And by slightly better I mean .5% - 2% better. And the max/min players will find and use those sets and proclaim them as the newest meta. And of course the lemming hoards will follow them. Honestly when it comes down to 2% "better" or less, it is still more about player skill then anything else leading to success.

so much this
People don't understand this game is balanced to a point where Skill>build every time.

Jamini · January 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I'm so amazed that people dont see how this mentality forms, considering they themselves through they're toxicity help to contribute to it. If the merest inquiry about builds, or the meta at large (REGUARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU THINK IT EXISTS OR NOT) results in shaming and insults, why would they bother thinking more about it? They'll just go look up a build. Thus, no new builds are produced, interesting advancing the system dies out. You make what you hate.

This isn't an inquiry about meta or builds dude. The OP is very literally posting an unfounded complaint about "meta" builds, and asking that core components of our current game be changed to suit their preference.

And I can say with 100% certainty that what you are saying here is blatantly untrue.

If you are polite and receptive to feedback, you will get constructive responses. If you are rude and dismissive, you will get nothing but trolling, scorn, and "git gud".

PlagueSD · January 2018

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

I guessing you're talking about PvP, but it doesn't matter since there's also a meta for PvE raids, pledges, etc. No matter what ZOS devs do or how they tweak skills, armor sets, etc, there's always going to be a few sets and skill rotations that will be slightly better then others. And by slightly better I mean .5% - 2% better. And the max/min players will find and use those sets and proclaim them as the newest meta. And of course the lemming hoards will follow them. Honestly when it comes down to 2% "better" or less, it is still more about player skill then anything else leading to success.

Yep, pretty much this. Oh, and IMHO, someone that can do 25K DPS and can survive the whole time is MUCH better than someone that does 40K dps, but dies 20 seconds into the fight

VaranisArano · January 2018

The meta must change.

The spice must flow.

Jamini · January 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Yeah, because he's gonna take you're advice -now-, after you've blatently insulted him.

I blatantly insulted him because his argument has no truth or merit to it. He is willfully ignorant, and deserves nothing but scorn. Re-read his original post. This guy isn't looking for help and never was.

Either that or you're not looking for anything but someone to shame, and never were looking for anything else.

You create what you hate.

Your post.

H3Li0S wrote: »

With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else, being limited with 10 skills among all the skill available is a complete joke. The game has too much useless skill, instead of making useless class like warden (I like the warden, i have 2 btw) they should work on the skill we already have and make changes, buff useless skill to make them viable. I would like to see a eso with more different build, not the must have build. Sure there will always be a build better than another but to a different level.

Why don't we have cooldown on skills ? Some instant cast(spammable) some with cooldown (most powerfull one), or just get rid of the damn class! We should be able to make what ever we want with our character like elder scroll always was. Unlock skill line with quest. They should add new skill to the skill line we already have instead of adding new class.

I like the game but im bored with the current meta and i know im not the only one.

The OP.

Where, in that, is he ever asking for help with builds? Point it out please.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · January 2018

The only place meta truly exists in this game is for DPS in vet trials. That's because people will always figure out what is mathematically possible to pull the most damage, and people will gravitate towards that. Nothing you can do from a design perspective will change that. Everywhere else you have plenty of options in this game. Sure a build that is well designed is going to outperform a build that is poorly designed, but I would hope that would be the case.

Jamini · January 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

The only place meta truly exists in this game is for DPS in vet trials. That's because people will always figure out what is mathematically possible to pull the most damage, and people will gravitate towards that. Nothing you can do from a design perspective will change that. Everywhere else you have plenty of options in this game. Sure a build that is well designed is going to outperform a build that is poorly designed, but I would hope that would be the case.

This guy gets it.