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The Meta must change ( Yes, another thread)
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Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »
Yeah, because he's gonna take you're advice -now-, after you've blatently insulted him.
I blatantly insulted him because his argument has no truth or merit to it. He is willfully ignorant, and deserves nothing but scorn. Re-read his original post. This guy isn't looking for help and never was.
Either that or you're not looking for anything but someone to shame, and never were looking for anything else.
You create what you hate.
Your post.With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else, being limited with 10 skills among all the skill available is a complete joke. The game has too much useless skill, instead of making useless class like warden (I like the warden, i have 2 btw) they should work on the skill we already have and make changes, buff useless skill to make them viable. I would like to see a eso with more different build, not the must have build. Sure there will always be a build better than another but to a different level.
Why don't we have cooldown on skills ? Some instant cast(spammable) some with cooldown (most powerfull one), or just get rid of the damn class! We should be able to make what ever we want with our character like elder scroll always was. Unlock skill line with quest. They should add new skill to the skill line we already have instead of adding new class.
I like the game but im bored with the current meta and i know im not the only one.
The OP.
Where, in that, is he ever asking for help with builds? Point it out please.
Nowhere.
But he postulates a idea you disagree with, that the game forces you to play in a build and nothing else. Explain to him why, explain to him how much leeway he has. It isn't hard. Several people have -done- it allready, and none of them have felt the need to insult him.
Again. You were never looking for anything but someone to shame.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on January 18, 2018 10:22PM -
Paralyse✭✭✭I don't run group content in ESO but I am not in favor of seeing the current system changed with cooldowns etc. But having the optimum spec, rotation, and bars for a given trial is not a guarantee of success; player skill plays a big role too, does it not?
In other words, why worry about min-maxing if you can't handle basic encounter mechanics or work as part of and with a team? Wringing every last bit of possible DPS/HPS out of your character is pretty useless if you can't, or won't, improve your skills.
In any game there will always be a "best" or "optimal" way to play any given spec or build, whether it's FF, console RPGs, Skyrim, WoW, or ESO. Asking the devs to completely change the way the game is played in order to bypass needing optimal player builds is pointless, since the players smart and skilled enough to do so will simply calculate a new "best" to replace the old one. It's wishful thinking that the devs will simply design meta out of ESO because it's not really possible to achieve such a goal in the first place.
I must admit that one thing that ESO DOES lack compared to some other MMO's is detailed online third-party guides regarding character builds and optimal vs. sub-optimal choices. WoW has no less than five major web site guides that will detail for your given class a "best" setup, including race, spec, skill choices, gear sets, rotations, item enchantments, and even the food you eat and the potions you drink.
However, that being said, a bad player whose character is perfectly optimized is still a bad player.
Paralyse, Sanguine's Tester, Patron Saint Of SToT (Sweetroll Thieves of Tamriel)
Toons:
(AD) Lady Katrana, Dark Mistress of Flames, Favored of Boethiah (Dunmer mystic/ward/fire magsorc)
(DC) Syrio of Braavos, Covenant Shadow Blade Dancer, Servant of Mephala (Khajiit NB)
"I didn't see any sweetrolls around here; surely you must be mistaken...must be the Thieves' Guild, they've got quite a taste for them, you know." -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don’t have heaps of faith in ZOS, but at what point does “I’ll play something else”, take over instead of demanding radical, and frankly impossible changes to a game?
...At this point I dont know of anything that''ll get ZOS to budge.
Though quite frankly we thought the sustain changes were 'impossible'. -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else, being limited with 10 skills among all the skill available is a complete joke. The game has too much useless skill, instead of making useless class like warden (I like the warden, i have 2 btw) they should work on the skill we already have and make changes, buff useless skill to make them viable. I would like to see a eso with more different build, not the must have build. Sure there will always be a build better than another but to a different level.
Why don't we have cooldown on skills ? Some instant cast(spammable) some with cooldown (most powerfull one), or just get rid of the damn class! We should be able to make what ever we want with our character like elder scroll always was. Unlock skill line with quest. They should add new skill to the skill line we already have instead of adding new class.
I like the game but im bored with the current meta and i know im not the only one.
For a more serious response, take the term "useless" with a grain of salt. In forum terms, this means "This set does 5% less damage than it used to, omg its useless now!!!!" Same thing for other meta statements like "Magblades are useless now!" or "DKs have been nerfed into uselessness now!!!" Neither of those are actually useless, they've just lost a tiny bit of an edge, and that matters only to people trying to squeeze out every tiny advantage they can.
You see that particularly with wardens, which are NOT useless unless you are judging them solely by the narrow focus of Trials DPS. MagWardens make excellent healers and tanks, and can pull decent, but not spectacular DPS. Stam Wardens again make good tanks and are the best stamina-based healers around, while being fantastic in PVP. I always roll my eyes when the trial DPS are wailing about the uselessness of MagDKs when my MagDK tank is rolling along just fine. Cries of "Useless!!!" are almost always overrated.
Its the same thing for skills and skill morphs and gear sets. There are very few skills and morphs that are outright useless in every situation, but there are plenty of skills/morphs that are optimal for PVE or PVP. Nearly every skill in the game is viable, but not every skill is the best in every situation. The skills/morphs that come up in builds again and again are the ones that are optimal in the most situations. COuld ZOS make more skills that are optimal in most situations? Yeah, they keep trying by tweaking and nerfing and buffing, but they have to move incrementally because they don't want to unbalance something in PVP or PVE since these skills are used in both.
As for past Elder Scrolls...
Every single class can use every weapon and every type of magic weapon effectively in this game if you swap from stamina based to magicka based or vice versa. Every single class. You can even build a hybrid that can do all of it at once. ESO has the easiest way to respec your characters to play as magicka or stamina, which creates an entirely different playstyle. -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else
You are adorable when you are wrong.
Jamini goes off to nodeath speedrun vWGT with his stamina warden healing build
Ahhh you guys are so adorable when you can't face the truth and deny it.
But at least one is right, its not the game that forces you to play meta build, its probably the *** community we have.
Yes and no.
Does the game force you to play meta builds? The closer you get to harder end-game content, the more beneficial playing a meta build becomes because the margin of error is smaller.
Does the community force you to play meta builds? The more players you are cooperating with, the more likely that they will expect you to run something that supports the group, and those builds have been worked out already.
To expand on that:- Overland Questing - Wear whatever you want, literally. You are questing for you, you can where the best gear or the worst because the only person getting affected by it is you.
- Normal Dungeons - wearing your build-appropriate light/medium/heavy armor is going to be helpful, as will matching your weapons and skills to your role. You can still complete dungeons even if you do the bare minimum, but don't expect your groupmates to be thrilled if you bring the bare minimum. How you accomplish that bare minimum is up to you.
- Veteran Dungeons - You do need gear and skills appropriate to your role. Tanks need to be able to survive, taunt, and crowd control. Healers need to be able to heal and group buff. DPS need to do actual damage (exact numbers vary, but I'd say the minimum is between 10-15k DPS for a slow but steady clear, other people will say higher especially for DLC dungeons). How you do that is still up to you in terms of gear and skills, but making the optimal choices will give noticeably easier clears. Some things are simply expected as a bare minimum, like healers buffing, tanks debuffing, and DPS having AOE options. Likewise, gear choices can be whatever gets the job done, though there are always standard choices. If you don't have a build/gear that will allow you to fulfill your role, however, you've probably massively inconvenienced 3 other people who were willing to do harder content, so they might be willing to walk you through ways you can improve or they might say "this isn't working" and kick you.
- Trials - At this point, you've joined a group of 11 other people who are all going to have to work as a team to take on some of the hardest content ZOS has to offer. Healers have got to heal and buff the group. Tanks have got to taunt, crowd control, debuff the boss, buff the group, and survive. DPS have got to do outstanding DPS. Otherwise this group is gonna fail and all 12 of you are going to have a bad time.
- At this point, gear and skills are important. Your healers have gear sets like SPC, Mending, and Worm's that they will be wearing so they can buff the group and they and the tanks will be using Warhorn Ultimates to further boost the group, and DPS will also have specific sets to take advantage of the group's buffs while doing the most damage they can. A trial group is a coordinated group effort of 12 people and that extends to gear and skills and even classes.
That's not to say that nothing else but the meta is unwelcome in Trials groups. Outside of the leaderboard groups, you can probably still bring your off-meta builds as long as you can complete the content without inconveniencing your group. However, it does mean that bringing a non-optimized build takes more effort/skill to make work in a trials setting than an optimized build.
That's pretty simply to figure out, if the minimum DPS for Trial 123 is 25K DPS and you have the choice between a non-optimized build with 25K DPS and a more optimal build who does 30K DPS. Both builds can complete the content, but which person do you want in the trial based solely on numbers? You want the build with 30K DPS. The non-optimized build with 25k DPS isn't "useless" - it can complete the content and will perform well at any lesser content, but its not going to be your first choice for Trial 123.
So yeah, the players you play with start expecting you to run meta builds the harder the content gets because not running an optimal build becomes more and more of an inconvenience the harder the content gets. By the time you start doing trials, you start running the gear that will benefit your group or you are a drag on the group compared to someone running a more optimal build.
Fortunately, everything short of trials can be completed without optimal builds (though optimal builds are easier) and even trials can be done without optimal class/race/gear/skills as long as 11 other people are willing to run with that build. -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else
You are adorable when you are wrong.
Jamini goes off to nodeath speedrun vWGT with his stamina warden healing build
(The only place where you honestly should be playing meta are Vet Trials. That is it. Perhaps you just really suck at making good builds?)
Since the OP is concerned about the current meta, it's safe to wager he cares about vet trials, and thus the requirement to play optimal builds. Indeed, he doesn't even seem to be as concerned with having to optimized as he is with the absence of diversity among optimized builds.PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook." -
KochDerDamonen✭✭✭✭✭
✭The game forces you into almost nothing. 90% of existing and upcoming content is singleplayer easy mode.
If 'the meta' changes, there will just be a different optimized build archetype to follow...
Oh sorry right right, if (magic word) arbitrarily changes then [vague and general concept] will disappear!If you quote someone, and intend for them to see what you have said, be sure to Mention them with @[insert name]. -
Yamenstein✭✭✭✭QuebraRegra wrote: »With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else, being limited with 10 skills among all the skill available is a complete joke. The game has too much useless skill, instead of making useless class like warden (I like the warden, i have 2 btw) they should work on the skill we already have and make changes, buff useless skill to make them viable. I would like to see a eso with more different build, not the must have build. Sure there will always be a build better than another but to a different level.
Why don't we have cooldown on skills ? Some instant cast(spammable) some with cooldown (most powerfull one), or just get rid of the damn class! We should be able to make what ever we want with our character like elder scroll always was. Unlock skill line with quest. They should add new skill to the skill line we already have instead of adding new class.
I like the game but im bored with the current meta and i know im not the only one.
A of of truth here, you should express your concerns to the lead combat designer. Historically they had intended the skills to have "CDs" of various lengths to prevent spamming, in the form of the delay you would experience in the casting animation which would play out between skills. They the player base discovered the animation cancelling exploit (as ZOS originally called it). ZOS worked to try and address it, and ultimately failed... at that time they proclaimed the bug was now official a "feature".
That's the historical fact.
The bar limits I assume were a console design limit... many MMOs, etc. have implemented systems to allow for more skill usage, beyond the controller button limitations... see STO, which uses auto cast skills based on a configurable criteria system (ie.cast shield whenever at < 20% health, etc.), and the cross hottbar system of FF, etc.
It's time to fix the skills that have been broken since launch (and re-balance the ones never used (determined by metrics analysis), and adjust the gearsets that are worthless.
But first, ZOS needs a new competent lead combat designer.... good luck on that.
Link to when they states that the skills were meant to have CDs?
Would like to read this. -
The_Smilemeister✭✭✭✭✭With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else, being limited with 10 skills among all the skill available is a complete joke. The game has too much useless skill, instead of making useless class like warden (I like the warden, i have 2 btw) they should work on the skill we already have and make changes, buff useless skill to make them viable. I would like to see a eso with more different build, not the must have build. Sure there will always be a build better than another but to a different level.
Why don't we have cooldown on skills ? Some instant cast(spammable) some with cooldown (most powerfull one), or just get rid of the damn class! We should be able to make what ever we want with our character like elder scroll always was. Unlock skill line with quest. They should add new skill to the skill line we already have instead of adding new class.
I like the game but im bored with the current meta and i know im not the only one.
What meta? What skills? Are you deliberately being vague to try and make it seem like you have an idea?
You contradicted yourself with Wardens. “Useless class like warden (I like the warden, i have 2 btw)” That’s like saying “I know drinking a bottle of cyanide is gonna kill me, but **** it; I’ma down two bottles of it anyway”. If you think it’s a useless class then why bloody use it? Maybe you wouldn’t have wasted time on this thread if you used common sense and went on to something that was better!
No one is forcing you to play any meta! Some people will require you to use a meta to join them for a dungeon or a trial, or maybe even a PvP group, but then no one is forcing you to join them either. Look for someone more accommodating, or better yet, make your own group and set your own terms.Edited by The_Smilemeister on January 18, 2018 11:43PM -
H3Li0S✭✭✭The_Smilemeister wrote: »
What meta? What skills? Are you deliberately being vague to try and make it seem like you have an idea?
You contradicted yourself with Wardens. “Useless class like warden (I like the warden, i have 2 btw)” That’s like saying “I know drinking a bottle of cyanide is gonna kill me, but **** it
you are right, playing warden is going to kill me, every other class does what he does better. Probably why i get kicked for using a warden dps sometimes. I find warden fun to play anyway, its why i use it.
Edited by H3Li0S on January 18, 2018 11:55PM -
gimpdrb14_ESO✭✭✭✭I have come up with a few very fun and very unique dps builds, and would love to play them in vet dungeons and vet trials but guess what I cant because they don't pull good dps, anywhere around 10-15k. -
thedude33✭✭✭✭✭With the current meta, the game forces you to play optimal build and nothing else, being limited with 10 skills among all the skill available is a complete joke. The game has too much useless skill, instead of making useless class like warden (I like the warden, i have 2 btw) they should work on the skill we already have and make changes, buff useless skill to make them viable. I would like to see a eso with more different build, not the must have build. Sure there will always be a build better than another but to a different level.
Why don't we have cooldown on skills ? Some instant cast(spammable) some with cooldown (most powerfull one), or just get rid of the damn class! We should be able to make what ever we want with our character like elder scroll always was. Unlock skill line with quest. They should add new skill to the skill line we already have instead of adding new class.
I like the game but im bored with the current meta and i know im not the only one.
Don't sell yourself short, you are the only one.1v1 Win/Loss Record in PvP.
1 Wins - 392 Losses (guy was AFK) -
munster1404✭✭✭Personally, I prefer skills with cool downs. Longer cool downs for high value skills and shorter CDs for others. Makes people learn to prioritise instead of a spam fest. But then the combat system in TES doesn't work this way. It is what it is. Makes no sense in such a drastic change.
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dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭munster1404 wrote: »Personally, I prefer skills with cool downs. Longer cool downs for high value skills and shorter CDs for others. Makes people learn to prioritise instead of a spam fest. But then the combat system in TES doesn't work this way...
Spamming will rarely win out, and there is a priority system for skill usage in ESO. You’ll go OOR to SOL with spamming.
I don’t understand why this misconception persists. ESO might be a lot of things, but it doesn’t have the brain dead spam X to win combat people ascribe to it.
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Jarryzzt✭✭✭✭You know, the OP's......let us be charitable and call it a rant...I could swear I saw this identical thread, posted multiple times by different users, on the forums of every single MMO I've ever played. Not just MMORPGs, but action MMOs, PVP deathmatch MMOs...I'm sure if someone can pull up old MUD forums they'll find some equivalent there as well.
I will say, that irrespective of what we think, meta will continue to change every...some period of time between significant patches. Both because I am sure ZOS has internal metrics they want "balance" to feel like, and because the game itself continues to evolve (as it has in the past 3+ years).
I will also point out that different types of content requires (i.e. has as its "hurdle") different things. For example, it almost does not matter what sort of a build you take into a normal dungeon so long as it kicks out...something, 5k, whatever. I have no idea what the split between normal/veteran is, but if it's even 50/50 then you have a large user sub-base that is far, far from limited in terms of build options. On the other hand, for something like vMA you might end up using a build other than a vet dungeon/trial setup (e.g. a magicka-specific guide on this very forum recommends a resto staff setup) simply because it's different from those things.
So the OP isn't entirely correct in asserting that everyone is being shoehorned into 5 builds with 10 skills. Everyone doing specific types of content is being shoehorned - and, by the way, that's how these games work. -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is absolutely no hope of balancing every single ability in the game. Since that is the case, there will always be a "best" setup.
Very true. Very, very, true.
This thread makes me think back to when every damage dealer was wearing Burning Spellweave, except for MagSorcs. And if you only had stamina characters, guilds refused to bring you along to trials. Such a wonderful community we have here. Lol.
