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moved

  • Mervyn
    Mervyn
    Yes
    dday3six wrote: »
    Mervyn wrote: »
    a crucial part that has to be considered in the discussion about this Topic:

    a high resource pool does not only pimp your damage -output, it advances your defensiv potential too. you get higher shields and heals, can block or roll more. that leads to this weird state of pvp, where u basicly oneshot some1, who isnt actively defending (or wrong defending, in case of unexperienced Players) or simply cant kill them at all.
    time to kill is either zero or endless. if you imagine a further and further growing resourcepool that dilemma should become more obvious.

    in my opinion a good design would be somthing that involves signifikant choices : damage-sustain-survivability .
    with the actual design you simply get it all by stacking more or less 1 stat.

    A choice line between damage, sustain, and survivability already exists. More recovery vs more stat pool for instance. The best pvp builds aren’t going to focus only on one stat. Whether you’re a stamina or magicka build, the other stat is always of important concern because of the utility offered by the off stat.

    sure, every decent pvp-build takes regen (mostly as low as u can get by with)

    but the fundamental Problem remains : by boosting 1 stat you improve both - damage AND survivability
  • LadyNalcarya
    LadyNalcarya
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    No
    I would prefer if they would just allow us to choose passives regardless of char's race.
    Sure, they could keep the "flavour" passives such as argonian swim speed, but they could allow players to choose which stats they would like to boost.
    That would create more visual diversity... It would be cool to see more nord or khajiit mages, for example. Not just elves.
    Edited by LadyNalcarya on January 16, 2018 4:43PM
    Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason

    PC/EU
  • dday3six
    dday3six
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    No
    Mervyn wrote: »
    dday3six wrote: »
    Mervyn wrote: »
    a crucial part that has to be considered in the discussion about this Topic:

    a high resource pool does not only pimp your damage -output, it advances your defensiv potential too. you get higher shields and heals, can block or roll more. that leads to this weird state of pvp, where u basicly oneshot some1, who isnt actively defending (or wrong defending, in case of unexperienced Players) or simply cant kill them at all.
    time to kill is either zero or endless. if you imagine a further and further growing resourcepool that dilemma should become more obvious.

    in my opinion a good design would be somthing that involves signifikant choices : damage-sustain-survivability .
    with the actual design you simply get it all by stacking more or less 1 stat.

    A choice line between damage, sustain, and survivability already exists. More recovery vs more stat pool for instance. The best pvp builds aren’t going to focus only on one stat. Whether you’re a stamina or magicka build, the other stat is always of important concern because of the utility offered by the off stat.

    sure, every decent pvp-build takes regen (mostly as low as u can get by with)

    but the fundamental Problem remains : by boosting 1 stat you improve both - damage AND survivability

    The coefficient for scaling is not fixed. It varies from skill to skill, and has diminishing returns which are further exacerbated by battle spirit. Using a Magicka character for example, yes they could stack Magicka to get more EHP from a shield. However this neglects Stamina which can also be used as a defensive apparatus even for a Magicka build. On the other end most of the utility such as CC for a Stamina build comes from Magicka skills. Then of course there are the balances between which are often Magicka leaning builds that use sword and board. Further there is also HP to consider which only alters survivability.

    There exists no fine line which separates a guaranteed boost of one stat providing optimal increases to both damage and survivability. Build, class, player skill, etc..the variables are numerously stacked in opposition to a state of boosting 1 stat always improves both damage and survivability.
  • LordSemaj
    LordSemaj
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    Yes
    Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
    It won't lead to "build diversity". It will just lead to a different meta and a different small handful of best-in-slot sets.
    Currently, nearly every set in the game is identical.

    Armor of the Lazy Dev
    2 - Gives you more damage
    3 - Gives you more damage
    4 - Gives you more damage
    5 - Gives you lots more damage

    These armor sets come in mainly two colors, green and blue. There are some red armor sets that only tanks and PVPers use. There are multi-color armor sets that no one uses in PVE. The game already doesn't promote build diversity. It promotes farming Vicious Ophidian. Build diversity cannot and will never exist while set creation is restricted by the game mechanics because they can create ingeniously clever sets that will never get used.

    I too remember when recovery was everything but these problems happened because base stats like stamina and its recovery were on the armor itself. That's not even how an Elder Scrolls game works, the vast majority of your stats come from the enchantments and level up attributes. You might see a few extra points of magicka or stamina on a piece of gear but it was ultimately 2% of what your other stat sources were.

    This is what you could expect to see on Elder Scrolls armor and sets:

    - 25% stronger Resist Frost enchantments
    - 5 Poison damage per second to nearby enemies, Muffle - Ebony Mail part only
    - +25 Armor when full set worn; +20 Stamina, +15% Resist Frost (cuirass); Muffle (boots); 15% Lockpicking, +15% One-handed damage (gloves); -12% Illusion spell cost (hood)
    - +25 Armor when full set worn; Immune to Poison (cuirass); Muffle (boots); +35% Bow damage (cowl); 2x Sneak attack damage from one-handed weapons (gloves)

    95% of such bonuses are useless to "Every Stamina Player Ever Made" unlike more damage. Diversity comes from allowing options that benefit and promote alternate playstyles, not from number crunching which playstyle is the grand daddy of them all and booting everyone from the raid who isn't a stam Nightblade. To promote alternate playstyles, you have to have gear that makes alternate choices a tempting option over using the same build as everyone else. Presently, gear doesn't offer options at all. It just gives you More Damage. There's always going to be a set that gives more More Damage.

    What promotes build diversity is sacrifice. There is no sacrifice to picking the statistically most optimal Stamina-player gear set and using it to the exclusion of all others. If there were set variety, there would be build variety.
    Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
    And hybrid builds will still be subpar because while you could now run, for example, 25k magicka and 25k stamina without being punished for smaller pools, how are you going to find enough set bonuses and passives and CP and whatnot to max out spell/weapon damage, spell/weapon crit, spell/armor penetration, magicka/stamina recovery, etc.?

    There are still too many stats you need to worry about maximizing to allow hybrid builds to compete with magicka or stamina focused builds. You would not need to unhinge just max stat from damage. You would need to unhinge nearly everything from damage if you want hybrid builds to work.
    Most hybrids wouldn't work, in fact, this has been a fact of life since Ultima Online and EverQuest. However, the very concept of a hybrid means they aren't going for maximum anything. Maximizing implies focus, hybrid implies compromise for other benefits. Hybrid doesn't mean two sources of dmg, but rather that the effects themselves don't scale according to the stats. There's no need for penetration, crit, or even recovery if they want magicka benefits that are unpenalized. Access to magicka buffs or heals in a stamina build that aren't horrendous due to stat scaling. Stamina players sporting shields. Werewolves actually being able to heal themselves. PVP benefits for sure if anyone understands anything about RPGs and hybrids in general. PVE is always dominated by purists, even among games where there are over 20 classes there will only be 2-3 that are top DPS and everyone else is a hybrid with different mechanics. Sometimes they'd rather have the medium armor druid over the light armor wizard because while it deals less damage it also survives a lot better and can act as an offhealer. With CP, due to how CP scales, spreading points around results in a few percent drops here and there in exchange for large boosts elsewhere; PVPers already do this and it's quite effective.
    Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
    The game is not built for that. And, while not perfect, combat is about as close to balanced as it has ever been. I don't want to see ZOS upend a combat system that, after four years.

    ZOS will break the game again sooner or later, as they have done in the past. Rebalancing some things now may even stop them from repeatedly nerfing things like Blocking or recovery. Players seem to just get weaker over time because they can't balance their game, heck next patch is smacking the raiders with even more changes to how damage is dealt. No more off-balance status buffing the raid. Players adapt and move on regardless of how much ZOS breaks the game or shifts the meta. It's also not the first time they upended the game to try to balance it, heck One Tamriel did a lot of that.
  • Mervyn
    Mervyn
    Yes
    i am aware that it is far more complex ... Simplification just comes naturally when outlining Patterns in a complex System.


    i just dont see the benefits from the actual System. in my opinion it rather creates more Problems than it solves.

    it rather seems unintuitive, for example :smile:

    in my familiy&friends guild some rather average Players stacked HP and resistances (the "defensive "stats) for PvP because they died too much. but theyr thoughtprocess gets thrown overboard because the damage increase through theyr opponents ressourcepool devalues the "normal defense" and u can only stay alive in PvP by using active defense like blocking and shielding, which are also boosted and prolonged by your own resourcepool


    so my question is : what is the benefit from this Connection between resource and damage?


    on a side note:
    every post and discussion about Balance is in the end something about personal Preference. what do i myself want balance for or around : 1v1, small groups or large scale sieges / Balance around high skilled Play or rather around the average Player / every class equal or spezialized

    i would prefer a combat Balance that is more casual or Newcomer friendly , simply to get more Players into actively participating in cyrodiil (not just getting farmed by the better Players until they get theyr skilline up and then set frustrated never a foot into cyrodiil again)
    thats why i advocatet YES , because i think it would get in this direction.








    Edited by Mervyn on January 16, 2018 6:39PM
  • kongkim
    kongkim
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    Yes
    Yes. you can't make a good hybried as long as damage come from the pools.
  • DoctorESO
    DoctorESO
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    .
    Edited by DoctorESO on September 22, 2018 7:39PM
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