moved

DoctorESO

moved

Loc2262

No

Your ability to sustain damage is governed by Stam/Mag Recovery (plus other means of regaining resources like heavy attacks), and not max resource. So there's no need to unhinge it. That'd just be an unnecessary major change in game mechanics.

clocksstoppe

Yes

Loc2262 wrote: »

Your ability to sustain damage is governed by Stam/Mag Recovery (plus other means of regaining resources like heavy attacks), and not max resource.

No. Your ability to sustain damage is governed by the pools and the regen, not only regen. If you had 1 million magicka you wouldn't give a damn about regen.

Loc2262 wrote: »

So there's no need to unhinge it.

Yes there is. It would enable hybrid builds, it would make all those hybrid sets not trash, it would give gear bonuses more meaning other than "stamina/wep dmg/crit = DAMAGE XDD, who cares".

Biro123

#NerfSorcs.

Chilly-McFreeze

Ususally I'd go for YES as I'm desperate to run a greatsword swinging, heavy armored, deadra summoning spellcaster, just like in every other TES game.

But realistically seen, a hybrid here would never be as powerful as a true one-resource build. And after all, that is why you ask, or am I wrong?

Too much values to get up. Crit chance, crit damage, penetration, damage stats, regen, CP, max res - at the moment. Take out max res and a pure build would still be better due to not having to split his other stats. It would take much more to even things out. At least having CP at the theoretically cap or, better yet, removing this system at all. But after that you would still have to split your stats. See how this is going?


EDIT: Also, if max resources don't grant you more damage, people will probably flock to put all points into health.

Knootewoot

Yes

Yes, Hybrid build

Enslaved

No

No. High resource should reward one with bonus damage compared to low resource.

Loc2262

No

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Loc2262 wrote: »

Your ability to sustain damage is governed by Stam/Mag Recovery (plus other means of regaining resources like heavy attacks), and not max resource.

No. Your ability to sustain damage is governed by the pools and the regen, not only regen. If you had 1 million magicka you wouldn't give a damn about regen.

That's just theoretical. You'll never have a resource pool large enough to sustain noteworthy fights (in PvE) without making use of recovery / means of resource regain. Let's say with 30k you run out of stam in 10 seconds, 40k in 14 seconds, 50k in 18 seconds and so on. Boss fights last longer than that, so you need recovery.

I'm not talking about overland trash mobs or solo quests.

Banana

Biro123 wrote: »

#NerfSorcs.

And Argonians

Pastas

Banana wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

#NerfSorcs.

And Argonians

and wardens

LordSemaj

Yes

Yes. The current method restricts gear set design, limits build options, and creates many of the problems in PVP by distinguishing between two distinctly separate playstyles that will never be balanced. So many gear set options are wasted on weapon damage, stamina, stamina recovery, which all amount to +damage. Moar Dmg. That's all we ever get. It becomes easy to calculate the best in slot gear because it's the one that gives the Most Dmg. That's boring scrub gameplay in any RPG. WoW went down that route and gave people One Stat to Rule Them All too. Yet Shadowbane went down a very different path that led to hoards of interesting builds and gameplay even for the same class and oodles of specialized roles possible while allowing you to pick and choose skills and stats for convenience or flavor rather than simply Moar Dmg. As it stands we are choosing gear pieces solely based on a single stat, the 5-piece set bonus, because there's a hoard of other gear sets with the exact same 2-4 boosts. Similarly, there are best in slot races with extremely noticeable damage differences purely due to a choice made hundreds of hours ago that now requires a race change token to correct while screwing with your character appearance in the process.

Yet if they went with disconnecting this concept of stack stacking being the one true method, gear sets would have room to grow into truly diverse builds like what DDO or true RPGs already do. Currently there's no point to adding spellcrafting or more spell schools because they'd have to compete with the current skills for damage that can be easily calculated and compared, creating more dead skills like Guild Wars 2 already did and inciting more pay to win revolts if they weren't in a free update and were better than the skills we use now. There are many dead skills too that are mathematically inferior. Yet allowing for gear sets to offer more than simply dmg boosts as their 2-4 stats can turn functionally irrelevant skills into something to be feared. We might even see players mixing multiple sets for 2-piece or 3-piece bonuses only.

Stat boosts should be gone from armor and left to enchantments only. Let players decide how much recovery they're willing to sacrifice to get a larger burst combo, or whether less max pool is worth more health. I know some people think they'd just resort to heavy attacks or other methods of recovery but you're saying that now having 40k resources. Say it again when your resources and recovery are neutered.

Armor of the Berserker
2 - Reduce the cost of Cleave by 15% and increase it's range by 2 meters
3 - Adds 5% crit chance to all Two-hander abilities
4 - Increase movement speed by 3%
5 - Taking dmg gives you a stacking Rage buff that adds 12 weapon power for 10 seconds, stacks 20 times

If anything, resource stacking is merely limiting the viability of alternative choices, which limits build creativity. It's sad when Warframe has a better gear system than you.

danno8

Yes

To be clear, it should have been this way from the beginning.

But it's too late to change it now.

Elwendryll

Yes

In my opinion, the current system limits the builds diversity, by making some races absolutely optimals for certain roles, and by making some really cool sets totally useless for the end-game content.

I'd really love to see hybrid builds become viable, for the sake of diversity, and creativity, and that could become a thing if the enemies had different physical and magical resistances, to start with.

Juponen

Yes

More stam equaling more damage is ok if you look at damage done in a loong fight but then it IS precisely because of more sustain attack capability.

It should have little to do with the damage of one attack.

The old RPG style STR + wpn skill was much more fitting. We don't have STR but that is no reason to take a altogether different stat and use it instead. Marathon runner does not make the damage that a heavyweight champion is capable of, yes?

Skill, buffs, wpn stats +a bit random hould decide how much basic outgoing dmg in one attack and max/regen how many times/how quickly that dmg can be repeated. Likewise with magic.

Like said it would also add a great deal more diversity to the game and that's actually the main point really.

This is all academic of course, they are not going to implement a change this drastic.

Nox_Noir

Yes

Would enable an incredible build diversity if it did, the kinda stuff that TES franchise is known for.

Turelus

Yes

I think it should, it might take some balance work and thinking to get past the issues and DPS loss it causes but I think it would make a better game and one easier to balance.

It would mean damage comes from damage stat and sustain from sustain stat rather than the current system where you have both.

Kolache

Yes

If it was done in a way that increased viable build options while not ruining the play-styles that people already enjoy. Actually if it ruined a subset of max magicka shield-stacking builds I'd be OK with that too. Sorry not sorry

LordSemaj

Yes

Loc2262 wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Loc2262 wrote: »

Your ability to sustain damage is governed by Stam/Mag Recovery (plus other means of regaining resources like heavy attacks), and not max resource.

No. Your ability to sustain damage is governed by the pools and the regen, not only regen. If you had 1 million magicka you wouldn't give a damn about regen.

That's just theoretical. You'll never have a resource pool large enough to sustain noteworthy fights (in PvE) without making use of recovery / means of resource regain. Let's say with 30k you run out of stam in 10 seconds, 40k in 14 seconds, 50k in 18 seconds and so on. Boss fights last longer than that, so you need recovery.

I'm not talking about overland trash mobs or solo quests.

You're thinking the pool has to last throughout the fight. It does not. The maximum pool a player has determines the maximum amount of skills he can spam before running out of resources. It's what we call the burst potential. If you had a cap of 3000 stamina and every skill in the game cost 3000 stamina, you would never be able to do a skill combo without heavy attacking first. Yet having 30000 stamina lets you fire off 10 of those same skills in a row. Having larger pools allow a player to exploit a vulnerability window easier by maximizing dps during those 5 seconds (which is only 5 skills due to cooldown) instead of wasting time doing skill, heavy, skill, heavy, skill, heavy.

Maximum resources are vitally important to the game, not just recovery. Tanks rely on it for block spamming and DPS use it to dodge roll or recover. When you're out of resources, you're dead.

Turelus wrote: »

I think it should, it might take some balance work and thinking to get past the issues and DPS loss it causes but I think it would make a better game and one easier to balance.

It would mean damage comes from damage stat and sustain from sustain stat rather than the current system where you have both.

It shouldn't be hard to balance if they want to just scale everyone to where the game is now. They already have the scaling data for the game and balance the bosses off the current stat totals everyone possesses. They know exactly how much stamina dmg people are using and how much they'll lose. They can easily just boost everyone's damage by that amount and keep the balance the same. In fact, it would let them decide for themselves where the appropriate level of damage should be instead of allowing 90k dps outliers.

Aisle9

No

Oh noes, this game doesn't work the same as Skyrim, what will we do now...

RaddlemanNumber7

No

This would require the entire game to be disassembled. Not good.

corrosivechains

Yes

more player choice is always a good thing. Pretty sure the only people who are against this are min-maxer "meta" copycats. They don't want to think for themselves.

Tasear

No

It wouldn't feel right.

JobooAGS

No

corrosivechains wrote: »

more player choice is always a good thing. Pretty sure the only people who are against this are min-maxer "meta" copycats. They don't want to think for themselves.

Or by doing this either the whole game would have to be revamped, including sets or whole sets would become useless such as necropotence and hulking draugr. I dont think zos is going to spend that much resources recreating their game

FakeFox

No

Max magicka/stamina is already not very important, since sustain doesn't scale with it any more. Would you remove the damage portion as well there would be absolutely no point in infesting anything into it.

And no, it would not extend build diversity at all. Health, Stamina and Magicka share the same sources, so if you cut away two of them only health remains. Enjoy your tank meta.

Tonturri

This would be fine - and heck, imo a healthy change for the game - as long as ZOS remembered to revisit all the things that are balanced around this. I'm tired of them changing this or that mechanic during one patch, but forgetting the changes they made earlier based on said mechanic and forgetting to go back and rebalance it.

In short, it'd be extremely important that they not half-ass it.

Dagoth_Rac

No

People will just stop min/maxing stats and start min/maxing recovery. Now people run with as much max stat as they can and as little regen as they can. With this change, people would run with as much regen as they can and as little max stat as they can. It won't lead to "build diversity". It will just lead to a different meta and a different small handful of best-in-slot sets.

And hybrid builds will still be subpar because while you could now run, for example, 25k magicka and 25k stamina without being punished for smaller pools, how are you going to find enough set bonuses and passives and CP and whatnot to max out spell/weapon damage, spell/weapon crit, spell/armor penetration, magicka/stamina recovery, etc.?

There are still too many stats you need to worry about maximizing to allow hybrid builds to compete with magicka or stamina focused builds. You would not need to unhinge just max stat from damage. You would need to unhinge nearly everything from damage if you want hybrid builds to work.

The game is not built for that. And, while not perfect, combat is about as close to balanced as it has ever been. I remember the days when every Trial was 2 magicka Templar healers and 10 magicka DKs for DPS and Tanks. When "dynamic ultimate gain" allowed you to spam Standard and Bat Swarm endlessly. That was unbalanced. That was a lack of diversity. You don't see that anymore. You don't even see the ranged magicka DPS meta that you did about 15 months ago. Trials groups are finally a pretty diverse mix of classes and magicka and stamina and ranged and melee.

I don't want to see ZOS upend a combat system that, after four years, they seem to have balanced fairly well (with a few exceptions - such as no truly viable ranged stamina builds) into something that will likely be a mess of unintended consequences and take them another 4 years to even come close to getting right.

Nelson_Rebel

No

No


Simply because it would require a total revamp of all classes and all sets in the game. There are even sets specifically designed around max stat and damage increase.


Not only that it would require an entire re-balancing if every single PvE content as well to ensure it doesn't negatively effect PvE either.


They would have to spend millions of dollars worth of manhours and resources to implement , when the current system is fine and works very well for PvE and PvP. Is it perfect? No and no system will work perfectly for everyone.


Hybrid builds (by definition of being a hybrid) will not, and SHOULD not be as powerful. If I specialize in something why should someone who DOESN'T specialize be afforded the same amount of damage? or healing? or tankiness?

dday3six

No

Normal flair for an RPG would be to have stats such as strength, dexterity, magic, and so on. ESO folded some the secondary physical and magical damage boosting stats in resource pool size in order to fit into the TES mold. That’s not counterintuitive. It’s simply making the system work within the existing structure laid out by previous TES titles.

On a secondary note; the focus on stat pool size is also a part of balancing between stamina and magicka skills. The utility of stamina builds comes from greater access, via a larger resource pool, to dodging and blocking for example. Removing the emphasis on stat pool shifts that calibration.

There is a reason the system exists as such, and just because you can’t see it, or disagree with it, does mean it’s unintuitive.

Mervyn

Yes

a crucial part that has to be considered in the discussion about this Topic:

a high resource pool does not only pimp your damage -output, it advances your defensiv potential too. you get higher shields and heals, can block or roll more. that leads to this weird state of pvp, where u basicly oneshot some1, who isnt actively defending (or wrong defending, in case of unexperienced Players) or simply cant kill them at all.
time to kill is either zero or endless. if you imagine a further and further growing resourcepool that dilemma should become more obvious.

in my opinion a good design would be somthing that involves signifikant choices : damage-sustain-survivability .
with the actual design you simply get it all by stacking more or less 1 stat.

dday3six

No

Mervyn wrote: »

a crucial part that has to be considered in the discussion about this Topic:

a high resource pool does not only pimp your damage -output, it advances your defensiv potential too. you get higher shields and heals, can block or roll more. that leads to this weird state of pvp, where u basicly oneshot some1, who isnt actively defending (or wrong defending, in case of unexperienced Players) or simply cant kill them at all.
time to kill is either zero or endless. if you imagine a further and further growing resourcepool that dilemma should become more obvious.

in my opinion a good design would be somthing that involves signifikant choices : damage-sustain-survivability .
with the actual design you simply get it all by stacking more or less 1 stat.

A choice line between damage, sustain, and survivability already exists. More recovery vs more stat pool for instance. The best pvp builds aren’t going to focus only on one stat. Whether you’re a stamina or magicka build, the other stat is always of important concern because of the utility offered by the off stat.

JobooAGS

No

dday3six wrote: »

Mervyn wrote: »

a crucial part that has to be considered in the discussion about this Topic:

a high resource pool does not only pimp your damage -output, it advances your defensiv potential too. you get higher shields and heals, can block or roll more. that leads to this weird state of pvp, where u basicly oneshot some1, who isnt actively defending (or wrong defending, in case of unexperienced Players) or simply cant kill them at all.
time to kill is either zero or endless. if you imagine a further and further growing resourcepool that dilemma should become more obvious.

in my opinion a good design would be somthing that involves signifikant choices : damage-sustain-survivability .
with the actual design you simply get it all by stacking more or less 1 stat.

A choice line between damage, sustain, and survivability already exists. More recovery vs more stat pool for instance. The best pvp builds aren’t going to focus only on one stat. Whether you’re a stamina or magicka build, the other stat is always of important concern because of the utility offered by the off stat.

also every race with a stam or mag increase is effectively nerfed