Make Frost Staves Great (again?).

trowlk · January 2018

I made a similar post regarding the ice staff and how it could become a powerful weapon by solving 7 of its problems! Feel free to analize it and insert your feedback!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387374/proposal-ice-staff-tanking-rework

Joosef_Kivikilpi · January 2018

Tannus15 wrote: »

I care about ice staffs and you're write up is awesome and I agree with everything.

Ice staffs need to either be split into an entirely new weapon category, or all the "ice" effects looked at.

At the very least the taunt should be moved off the heavy attack and onto destructive touch.

Secondly I would also grant the passive defence from defensive stance to impulse, so that ice staff tanking can be on par with sword and shield from a block cost perspective.

Or a taunt passively being added onto any Destruction Skill when Ice Staff is being used. That'd be INSANELY awesome!

Derra · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

As long as the Ice Staff skills and 90% of its passives are DPS oriented, sword and shield will be far and beyond better at tanking; especially since sword and shied counts as two armor piece bonuses and tanks need all those they can get.

If ZoS really wants to make an Ice Staff a control or tank weapon, then it needs to have it's own skill-line and passives that tailor to that game-play.

Here is hoping that we´ll see a defensive magica weaponset (1h + orb?) and destro staff more resembling 2h weapons.
fire: 5% increased dmg
frost: increased penetration by 3000
lightning: direct damage attacks have 15% chance to leave a static charge on the enemy dealing X amount of dmg over 6s.

Takuto · January 2018

Option A:
Introduce morphable passives and allow Tri-Focus and Ancient Knowledge to be morped in such as a way as to give a dps-oriented option.

This would allow an additional option of dropping only the magicka based block and taunt, but not the increased block strength. Thus allowing a normal fire staff based character to switch out to a ice staff to better allow themselves to survive a stage mechanic or encounter.

Option B:
Introduce 'Cold Fire' staffs, which are treated as fire staffs for the destruction staff passives, but deal cold damage and are treated as ice staffs for active abilities.

This gives the option of having a slightly defensive setup with a cold based damage and synergies, but without going full-on tank with regards to taunts and magicka based block.

Option C:
Split the first two options and allow morphable passives which allow the player to select which of the aspects they want for their destruction staff ex) choosing between Taunt+Magicka Block, Extra HA Damage, or Channeled Heavy Attack with Splash Damage.

QuebraRegra · January 2018

they were fun in PVP.. lock em' down, and murder them when they run out of resources breaking free

Tannus15 · January 2018

@Takuto I actually really like your Option B.

victoriana-blue wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

The heavy attack taunt / shield is the most idiotic thing in the world.

If you're heavy attacking, you aren't blocking, which means you're a bad tank.
If you're heavy attacking every 15 seconds to keep taunt then you're a terrible, terrible tank.

Nah, if all you do is block then you're a mediocre tank. You won't have resources to inflict maim, fracture, etc; to buff your allies; or to control battlefield positioning. Heavy attacks are important!

Ice staff needs some help, and the changes to block cost and fortress are good steps.

I agree to a point. however some fights it's literally "whatever you do, don't drop block". Like blood root forge HM, especially once you get all 3 bosses up. I'd love to see a tank taking 3 seconds to heavy attack in that fight.

You should be able to hold block AND maintain maim / fracture / crusher.

Which brings me to the other huge weakness of the ice staff. Battle field mobility. Moving while blocking is way too slow when ice staff tanking.
Repositioning the boss or moving the fight is too slow while blocking. Ice staff definitely needs that passive.
I'd add it to ancient knowledge personally.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

umagon wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

The_Patriarch wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

Nothing more awesome than a DPS heavy attacking with a frost staff in a random dungeon. Why would we want to change that?

Good lord, that happened to me (I was tanking) just a few hours ago. Makes me twitch when that happens.

One hand and shield at least makes the taunting mechanic optional and not built in. I have ran into that issue with players doing dps with the frost staff, and it’s frustrating from a tanking perspective. The boss gets loose then the person who taunted it starts running the boss around mean while its throwing 1-2 shot aoe and single hits. Then everyone else starts dying. It’s another one of those examples where Wrobel’s creativity is interesting but the execution is poor.

No different than the nS0 I ran with S+B DPS after helping show him the ropes, going through his bar set up and removing Pierce Armor, the Serpent turns and cleaves 10 of the 12. Turns out he had it double barred. Heavy on your Frost staff is no different from that or from an Off-Tank pulling the boss in trials, pay attention... get good.

Yes, players should be paying attention things but issue with frost staff's taunt mechanic is that it is a passive. Players can unslot a skill but can’t remove points from a passive without going to re-allocate. With pierce armor players can remove all chance of taunting by not having it on the hotbar. The same can’t be done with frost staff without a re-allocation. And players can’t re-allocate on the fly. Even those who know about it slip up in their rotation then the next thing you know they are dead. And sometimes players can’t switch to a different weapon when you ask them to because they don’t have one.

The Off-Tank can NOT un-slotted Pierce Armor anymore than un-take a passive. They need it on their bar for when the time comes. So far in a month of running a Frost staff bar l've yet to accidently heavy on it. So I call bull $h''t on that one. Not having a spare staff to replace it is just frigging lazy.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

As long as the Ice Staff skills and 90% of its passives are DPS oriented, sword and shield will be far and beyond better at tanking; especially since sword and shied counts as two armor piece bonuses and tanks need all those they can get.

If ZoS really wants to make an Ice Staff a control or tank weapon, then it needs to have it's own skill-line and passives that tailor to that game-play.

There are exactly two ways STB is beating Frost staff

Battle Field Mobility - 60% increased movement speed while blocking Deflect Bolts - Increased amount of damage you can block from ranged+ projectiles by 15% and only the Battle Field Mobility hurts to not have.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

@Kessra DK chains do not have any taunt associated to them.

Izaki · January 2018

When a destruction staff ability with an Ice Staff is slotted gain 5% damage done. Boom.

Tannus15 · January 2018

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

I care about ice staffs and you're write up is awesome and I agree with everything.

Ice staffs need to either be split into an entirely new weapon category, or all the "ice" effects looked at.

At the very least the taunt should be moved off the heavy attack and onto destructive touch.

Secondly I would also grant the passive defence from defensive stance to impulse, so that ice staff tanking can be on par with sword and shield from a block cost perspective.

Or a taunt passively being added onto any Destruction Skill when Ice Staff is being used. That'd be INSANELY awesome!

rofl, new dps meta. ice staff + tremorscale.

umagon · January 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

The_Patriarch wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

Nothing more awesome than a DPS heavy attacking with a frost staff in a random dungeon. Why would we want to change that?

Good lord, that happened to me (I was tanking) just a few hours ago. Makes me twitch when that happens.

One hand and shield at least makes the taunting mechanic optional and not built in. I have ran into that issue with players doing dps with the frost staff, and it’s frustrating from a tanking perspective. The boss gets loose then the person who taunted it starts running the boss around mean while its throwing 1-2 shot aoe and single hits. Then everyone else starts dying. It’s another one of those examples where Wrobel’s creativity is interesting but the execution is poor.

No different than the nS0 I ran with S+B DPS after helping show him the ropes, going through his bar set up and removing Pierce Armor, the Serpent turns and cleaves 10 of the 12. Turns out he had it double barred. Heavy on your Frost staff is no different from that or from an Off-Tank pulling the boss in trials, pay attention... get good.

Yes, players should be paying attention things but issue with frost staff's taunt mechanic is that it is a passive. Players can unslot a skill but can’t remove points from a passive without going to re-allocate. With pierce armor players can remove all chance of taunting by not having it on the hotbar. The same can’t be done with frost staff without a re-allocation. And players can’t re-allocate on the fly. Even those who know about it slip up in their rotation then the next thing you know they are dead. And sometimes players can’t switch to a different weapon when you ask them to because they don’t have one.

The Off-Tank can NOT un-slotted Pierce Armor anymore than un-take a passive. They need it on their bar for when the time comes. So far in a month of running a Frost staff bar l've yet to accidently heavy on it. So I call bull $h''t on that one. Not having a spare staff to replace it is just frigging lazy.

I am not talking about an off tank I am talking about people using the frost staff as dps. Usually due to not having another staff or not paying attention to how the passives work. And while you may have not made any mistakes when using it there are other players who.

Kessra · January 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@Kessra DK chains do not have any taunt associated to them.

oh, they did. I've just tested it on two of my accounts and, yeah, the 4 seconds taunt seems to be gone now.

We tested this before on giants where a tank used pierce-armor to taunt the mob when I used chains afterwards the giant kept aggroing me instead of the tank for 4 seconds when he got back to the tank afterwards. Even a third tank couldn't get the aggro in that window due to overtaunt mechanic. Though it seems the taunt was unintentional and was thus removed, which isn't a bad thing in my opinion, especially in vMoL 2nd encounter when a mDK is unintentionally hit the boss instead of the adds.

MLGProPlayer · January 2018

It would be cool if we had another staff option, but ZOS made it pretty clear frost staff is staying a tanking weapon.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

Kessra wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

@Kessra DK chains do not have any taunt associated to them.

oh, they did. I've just tested it on two of my accounts and, yeah, the 4 seconds taunt seems to be gone now.

We tested this before on giants where a tank used pierce-armor to taunt the mob when I used chains afterwards the giant kept aggroing me instead of the tank for 4 seconds when he got back to the tank afterwards. Even a third tank couldn't get the aggro in that window due to overtaunt mechanic. Though it seems the taunt was unintentional and was thus removed, which isn't a bad thing in my opinion, especially in vMoL 2nd encounter when a mDK is unintentionally hit the boss instead of the adds.

Oh if it use to that was before I started. I know it is still used as fast aggro at the start. Also just assumed thats what people meant.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

umagon wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

The_Patriarch wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

Nothing more awesome than a DPS heavy attacking with a frost staff in a random dungeon. Why would we want to change that?

Good lord, that happened to me (I was tanking) just a few hours ago. Makes me twitch when that happens.

One hand and shield at least makes the taunting mechanic optional and not built in. I have ran into that issue with players doing dps with the frost staff, and it’s frustrating from a tanking perspective. The boss gets loose then the person who taunted it starts running the boss around mean while its throwing 1-2 shot aoe and single hits. Then everyone else starts dying. It’s another one of those examples where Wrobel’s creativity is interesting but the execution is poor.

No different than the nS0 I ran with S+B DPS after helping show him the ropes, going through his bar set up and removing Pierce Armor, the Serpent turns and cleaves 10 of the 12. Turns out he had it double barred. Heavy on your Frost staff is no different from that or from an Off-Tank pulling the boss in trials, pay attention... get good.

Yes, players should be paying attention things but issue with frost staff's taunt mechanic is that it is a passive. Players can unslot a skill but can’t remove points from a passive without going to re-allocate. With pierce armor players can remove all chance of taunting by not having it on the hotbar. The same can’t be done with frost staff without a re-allocation. And players can’t re-allocate on the fly. Even those who know about it slip up in their rotation then the next thing you know they are dead. And sometimes players can’t switch to a different weapon when you ask them to because they don’t have one.

The Off-Tank can NOT un-slotted Pierce Armor anymore than un-take a passive. They need it on their bar for when the time comes. So far in a month of running a Frost staff bar l've yet to accidently heavy on it. So I call bull $h''t on that one. Not having a spare staff to replace it is just frigging lazy.

I am not talking about an off tank I am talking about people using the frost staff as dps. Usually due to not having another staff or not paying attention to how the passives work. And while you may have not made any mistakes when using it there are other players who.

People sucking has nothing to do with the merits of a skill. Its the same level of stupid that DPS deciding to go solo the ad thats by itself and thus causing CC imunity making it so I can't chains/gate it into the group, but DPS do that $ hit all the time.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

Izaki wrote: »

When a destruction staff ability with an Ice Staff is slotted gain 5% damage done. Boom.

5% damage done + Minor Maim = OP. Back to the drawing board.

Didgerion · January 2018

PVP-Magica Heavy Armor DPS builds are using sword and board on both bars.

That's how bad Frost Staffs are - no one uses them.

MehVahdJukaar · January 2018

I see we have alot of awesome suggestions here. I really hope zos will listen to this and maybe some day we'll have an ice dps meta that perhaps will take advantage of that awesome winterborn set.
Also, to have an idea of where ice only warden dds are sitting at, i've done some dps testing on the pts using Lich, Ysgramor, asylum, and msa and i was sitting at 21k. I'm not very good with wardens so you probably could get around 26k or more using winterborn (wich wasn't on the pts) and a more optimal rotation. Maybe some more competent warden ice mage culd post some better results.

clocksstoppe · January 2018

I think they should make ice staff count as 2 piece for set effects. That would give them a solid reason to be worth considering.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

MehVahdJukaar wrote: »

I see we have alot of awesome suggestions here. I really hope zos will listen to this and maybe some day we'll have an ice dps meta that perhaps will take advantage of that awesome winterborn set.
Also, to have an idea of where ice only warden dds are sitting at, i've done some dps testing on the pts using Lich, Ysgramor, asylum, and msa and i was sitting at 21k. I'm not very good with wardens so you probably could get around 26k or more using winterborn (wich wasn't on the pts) and a more optimal rotation. Maybe some more competent warden ice mage culd post some better results.

36k parse. Not me, a video I found that has inspired me. So far I’m at 22k and I’ve only ever tanked, and I’m in Infal and Juli. I don’t have Master Architecture yet. I can’t weave worth $*#$ yet. I hit the same where my back bar is Ice (higher) Lighting(worse weave) for me.

https://youtu.be/9wX4w91RKjM

Chaos2088 · January 2018

Seriously playing an Ice mage viable for end game content...would just be ace...I have a mag warden set up for Ice damage, but kinda get LOL at whenever I use him.....(the feels!!) so yes...please make Ice staffs DPS.

Jamdarius · January 2018

Sorry but this post I half agree only, while it would be cool to see Ice Staff to make more DPS it's usage is very different than any other staff.
If you make Ice mage warden DPS it won't make much of the DD (sadly it's true even for my warden but still making average damage and highest I scored was around 34k single target boss DPS <over 100k dps max on group of trash vet mobs btw> in perfect conditions). While the DPS numbers were not so good I helped a lot with survival for my group because I usually have 75-80% uptime of minor maim (making them deal 15% less damage) caused by ice/freezing attacks which is actually great help in dungeons on veteran difficulty or even trials.

Hope that will help you see Ice staff in new light and btw nobody is telling you to use ice staff passive that keeps taunting with heavy attack, u are perfectly fine without it =]

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

Jamdarius wrote: »

Sorry but this post I half agree only, while it would be cool to see Ice Staff to make more DPS it's usage is very different than any other staff.
If you make Ice mage warden DPS it won't make much of the DD (sadly it's true even for my warden but still making average damage and highest I scored was around 34k single target boss DPS <over 100k dps max on group of trash vet mobs btw> in perfect conditions). While the DPS numbers were not so good I helped a lot with survival for my group because I usually have 75-80% uptime of minor maim (making them deal 15% less damage) caused by ice/freezing attacks which is actually great help in dungeons on veteran difficulty or even trials.

Hope that will help you see Ice staff in new light and btw nobody is telling you to use ice staff passive that keeps taunting with heavy attack, u are perfectly fine without it =]

Expect it you don't double bar the Ice Staff. If you want the extra damage from Inferno or Lighting then you need Tri Focus. In about a month now of Frost back bar and Inferno front bar I've yet to heavy attack on the wrong bar. Only up to 22k so far but then I main a tank. I'm also not hitting any higher with a Lighting Staff back barred instead.

crobarXIII · January 2018

I would like to see the 3 staves reworked so that one increase all dot dmg, one increases aoe dmg & the last increase single target dmg. Also, add 2 new major/minor buffs, have 1 increase your single target dmg & call it focus & another that increases your dot dmg & call it rage.

So it would look like this
--fire staves deal increased dot dmg & applying the burning status effect gives you the minor rage buff increasing the dmg of your dots.
--lightning staves increased single target dmg & applying the concuss status effect gives you the minor focus increasing your single target dmg done. this shouldn't effect the cleave dmg from lightning heavy since the cleave dmg is based on the dmg done to the initial target.
--frost staves deal increased aoe dmg & applying the chill status effect applys minor vulnerability to the target increasing the dmg they receive. It would also be interesting if the ice heavy attack became an aoe attack.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

crobarXIII wrote: »

I would like to see the 3 staves reworked so that one increase all dot dmg, one increases aoe dmg & the last increase single target dmg. Also, add 2 new major/minor buffs, have 1 increase your single target dmg & call it focus & another that increases your dot dmg & call it rage.

So it would look like this
--fire staves deal increased dot dmg & applying the burning status effect gives you the minor rage buff increasing the dmg of your dots.
--lightning staves increased single target dmg & applying the concuss status effect gives you the minor focus increasing your single target dmg done. this shouldn't effect the cleave dmg from lightning heavy since the cleave dmg is based on the dmg done to the initial target.
--frost staves deal increased aoe dmg & applying the chill status effect applys minor vulnerability to the target increasing the dmg they receive. It would also be interesting if the ice heavy attack became an aoe attack.

Where does Minor Miam go, and why are you moving Lighting Staves signature onto Frost Staff? Some interesting ideas but it doesnt seem to account for the fact that as of Morrowind all 3 Staffs have found a role. I for one would be very sad to lose my Frost Staff on my Warden tank. It would be nice to have Frost Stave morphs for either tanking or DPS though.

crobarXIII · January 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

crobarXIII wrote: »

I would like to see the 3 staves reworked so that one increase all dot dmg, one increases aoe dmg & the last increase single target dmg. Also, add 2 new major/minor buffs, have 1 increase your single target dmg & call it focus & another that increases your dot dmg & call it rage.

So it would look like this
--fire staves deal increased dot dmg & applying the burning status effect gives you the minor rage buff increasing the dmg of your dots.
--lightning staves increased single target dmg & applying the concuss status effect gives you the minor focus increasing your single target dmg done. this shouldn't effect the cleave dmg from lightning heavy since the cleave dmg is based on the dmg done to the initial target.
--frost staves deal increased aoe dmg & applying the chill status effect applys minor vulnerability to the target increasing the dmg they receive. It would also be interesting if the ice heavy attack became an aoe attack.

Where does Minor Miam go, and why are you moving Lighting Staves signature onto Frost Staff? Some interesting ideas but it doesnt seem to account for the fact that as of Morrowind all 3 Staffs have found a role. I for one would be very sad to lose my Frost Staff on my Warden tank. It would be nice to have Frost Stave morphs for either tanking or DPS though.

I'm removed minor maim because I would like the 3 types to be dmg types & If they really want to add magicka tanking maybe it can be done through the undaunted skill line by adding more passives & maybe changing trapping webs to an aoe cc that nb & templar tanks can use for crowd control. I myself don't really care for ice staff tanking on my warden tank. On live I have actually seen an increase on lighting staff & s&b tanking. Those tanks are using lightning blockade with livewire.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

crobarXIII wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

crobarXIII wrote: »

I would like to see the 3 staves reworked so that one increase all dot dmg, one increases aoe dmg & the last increase single target dmg. Also, add 2 new major/minor buffs, have 1 increase your single target dmg & call it focus & another that increases your dot dmg & call it rage.

So it would look like this
--fire staves deal increased dot dmg & applying the burning status effect gives you the minor rage buff increasing the dmg of your dots.
--lightning staves increased single target dmg & applying the concuss status effect gives you the minor focus increasing your single target dmg done. this shouldn't effect the cleave dmg from lightning heavy since the cleave dmg is based on the dmg done to the initial target.
--frost staves deal increased aoe dmg & applying the chill status effect applys minor vulnerability to the target increasing the dmg they receive. It would also be interesting if the ice heavy attack became an aoe attack.

Where does Minor Miam go, and why are you moving Lighting Staves signature onto Frost Staff? Some interesting ideas but it doesnt seem to account for the fact that as of Morrowind all 3 Staffs have found a role. I for one would be very sad to lose my Frost Staff on my Warden tank. It would be nice to have Frost Stave morphs for either tanking or DPS though.

I'm removed minor maim because I would like the 3 types to be dmg types & If they really want to add magicka tanking maybe it can be done through the undaunted skill line by adding more passives & maybe changing trapping webs to an aoe cc that nb & templar tanks can use for crowd control. I myself don't really care for ice staff tanking on my warden tank. On live I have actually seen an increase on lighting staff & s&b tanking. Those tanks are using lightning blockade with livewire.

Yeah but its pointless because you aren't increasing the Off-Balance up time with 4 Lighting over 3 and really true in trials setup. Plus those same tanks get crushed if they get caught on the back bar.

Lynx7386 · January 2018

Personally, I've always liked frost staves as a tanking weapon and I agree with a lot of the changes ZOS has made - but I do see tons of problems in the implementation of those changes. Really, they should've separated frost staves from the destruction staff tree and made them an individual skill tree ("Protection staves", to go along with "destruction staves" and "restoration staves", I guess).

Ultimately the issue is that they tried to take what was an underused offensive weapon and make it a defensive weapon, both to promote it's use (there was no way frost staves would ever match up to fire or shock in single target/aoe damage setups, just no room for it) and to fill the void of a magicka tanking weapon that so many people were asking for. They just kind of half-arsed it and didnt go all the way like they should.

To me, ice is a defensive element: It slows and hinders enemies, it can be used to create armor or shields, it shatters enemy defenses, it's all about buffing and debuffing in those regards. I could never see fire or lightning as tanking elements, but ice definitely fits the bill - it makes sense and it feels right. Cant say I'm not a little biased that it also lines up very well with wardens, which were a class I've been waiting on the return of since they were ripped out of early game builds pre-launch.

It's also kind of nice that a tank using an ice staff has slightly better options for solo damage output without a complete gear change. 1h+shield is terrible for soloing most content, which is why so many traditional tanks have entirely different skills and gear for when they're not doing group activities. With a frost staff you still have some relatively damage-focused abilities you can use for overland.

All that said, here's what I think needs to change:
1. Frost staves (and really all 2handed weapons) should count for two set bonuses. Not being able to run a 5/5/2 setup really hurts anyone tanking with a frost staff, and is the reason most still only use it as a back bar option instead of a primary tanking weapon. Those set bonuses are invaluable.
2. All of the skills in the destruction staff skill tree should have unique effects based on staff type, with frost staves having tanking oriented effects added. Heavy attacking is not a reliable or effective way of taunting - it'd make more sense if destructive clench had a taunt feature instead.
3. Ultimately, separating frost staves into a new skill line for "defense staves" or "protection staves" would be ideal, giving them unique abilities focused on tanking. However, that does kind of kill my final point above about being able to use them as a semi-damage oriented overland weapon when soloing.