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End of all (strict) Heavy attack Builds?
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Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭rustic_potato wrote: »Looks like the idea is to do heavy attacks when off balanced for resources and do damage when its down. I like this idea more than just a monotonous boring rotation.
As if that would happen.
The developers don't realize that it's still going to be very hard to see when this debuff is up, relies on people reacting to it, also depends on people building for it so that they expect to not need to regain resources other times and, finally, not having to roll dodge or bash to interrupt or block or move faster than allowed during heavy attacks to avoid damage or any other reason.
That wont happen.
We are still going to build to have as simple a rotation as possible where we always heavy attack at a certain point and will not be "waiting for the right moment" while also reacting to boss mechanics that are also going to be inconveniently timed.
This change just marginalizes off balance extra damage as a passive "nice, but don't need to know about it" free extra damage mechanic that we ignore as "out of our control" and does nothing else to change combat. (Edit: Which means, DKs will not be able to easily predict power lash procs or will need to wait so long that it will end up being off their bar for something else they can use more. Another skill dust-binned.)Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on January 9, 2018 7:22PM1 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭rustic_potato wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »
Because of the cooldown Off balance's up time will now be too low to really be beneficial anymore.
Well that wasn't the statement but I'll bite. Its patch day 1 and you claim that it is no longer beneficial. Have you done the testing needed and figured it out?
Technically, the other status effects from other damage/staff types are not on that same cooldown so they can provide a larger benefit in combat by far now, rather than being comparable.
I don't think the others get used up like off-balance does on live also anyway. That would indicate a likely major problem with balance between staff types incoming.0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm pretty sure Off Balance will still be usable; Sorcs just now need to use an ability spam 80% of a boss fight while Off Balance is on cooldown. So, Heavy Attack Sorcs are dead. Off Balance itself is not.
Not to mention how this changes magdk in pvp; power lash not consuming the 5 second long off balance effect, y'all think about that for a few seconds
It has a built-in cooldown on that skill already. It will not spam the increased damage version.
In fact, this will be a nerf to off-balance/power lash DK builds.0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭I get ~100% off-balance by myself on slimecraw as a test boss. Unless you let it run out you can still use it very effectively. Put on charged with shock enchant on one or two sorcs and enjoy awesome sustain for the whole group.
The double resource return is pretty damn nice.
The cooldown is currently about 10 seconds, so not as high as the patch notes indicated.
Then expect it to be changed, if you are testing on PTS. That would be a bug if it is not behaving as intended in the notes.
Also FYI, some bosses are categorized differently, including world bosses. I find some to be much easier to solo when they fall to knockdowns while almost every other world boss does not show any effect. For example, Shellcracker, the mudcrab world boss at Shipwreck Strand in Stonefalls, can be knocked down from both off-balance and Meteor right after while other bosses can't be.
Yes, I know I just pretty much told them "world boss not working as intended" so it will likely be buffed so our effectiveness gets nerfed, but it was needed to be said that not every boss is actually the same and useful for testing.Edited by Mystrius_Archaion on January 9, 2018 7:32PM0 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seems kinda iValera Progib wrote: »There goes my magDK heavy attack build... With every patch I am always amazed how ZoS has no idea what is happening...
We just got a major buff to traits and Charged just went back to being useless again... I can’t believe this is actually happening...
Charged would still give minor vulnerability just sorc but changes on bosses seem like well a way to add time on bosses. 4 secs is to small of a time frame... maybe 10 or even 8 could make up for this.0 -
rustic_potato✭✭✭✭✭Heavy attack builds are boring af. It is easy to learn and master no challenge whatsoever. If that is the goal those builds still work.
I see a DPS scaling like this
HA builds < Simplified Skill Rotation < Complex situational skill and HA usage.
The difficulty also should have scaled like this but HA rotations were doing more than complex rotations and this change takes it back to the ZOS intended order of skilled play.
mDKs are shafted but that is more of a class problem. Nobody used power lash pre-morrowind. The other morph just needs to be buffed enough to the point where is is usable in PVE.I play how I want to.0 -
Siliziumdioxid✭✭✭rustic_potato wrote: »Heavy attack builds are boring af. It is easy to learn and master no challenge whatsoever. If that is the goal those builds still work.
I see a DPS scaling like this
HA builds < Simplified Skill Rotation < Complex situational skill and HA usage.
The difficulty also should have scaled like this but HA rotations were doing more than complex rotations and this change takes it back to the ZOS intended order of skilled play.
Two Points:
1. In theory you would use the oversustain from doing more heavy attacks than necessary to dump your spare magicka for either some high cost but high damage skills at some point (perfect example here would be the use of daedric tombs) or to use a setoption that requires an ridiculous amount of sustain but grants a strong buff (an example would be kena pre morrowind where the 2 consecutive light attacks were not needed in order to proc it, however there are no sets right now that allow for this). Actually two pretty common heavy attack rotation for sorc and templar are pretty much doing this by overcasting dots (pet + lightning flood + blockade + daedric curse + 1x heavy ) or by using double clench. They deal high damage but you are bound to run dry.
2. Not all Heavy attack builds are simple and mindless:
StamDK: [url]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZVKcUvHSM[/url]
this build is way different from the usual hold your left mouse button pressed for an entire front bar. It is complicated, your animation-canceling has to be on point or you either lose lots of time or you cancel to fast and don't cast abilities at all. (Actually i am still trying to keep hawk eye up in raids and dungeons but solely out of boredom)
For the complexity this rotation has i feel like it should wield more dps however it does not.
Magicka: I know that especially Lightning heavy attack are clunky, they slow you, they last 2.2 seconds, you can get stuck in a lightning heavy, you can't reliably use some abilities at the end of it, you can not blockcast them etc. But: you can't mindlessly spam them. More than 80% of your damage comes from your DoT's independently if you are using a spammable or not. That means your top priority is still to keep your DoT's up that makes your options to fit in a 2.2 second heavy attack very limited. A heavy attack you have to fit between two skills or you have to do right after a bar swap in order to be time efficient. The workaround here it is to either swap cancel lightning medium attacks, using a spammable to fit the remaining time or by overcasting DoT's. each of this options has it's detriments. I mean it breaks with the usual LA -> Skill -> LA -> Skill -> ... you still do that on a heavy attack builds you are just not following it strictly enough to be called Light attack rotation.
I just don't know why there is so much bias against Magicka HA Builds. For Example Alcast uploaded a video a while ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEuhVM7dehc
What is the point of that video? Any good theory crafter knows that his HA Build is missing one of the core points a HA Build should have. What does that run demonstrate?
during homestead there was an ongoing discussion in my raidguild whether off balance is getting removed by the power lash often enough so that mdks should or should not use it for the groups sake... and this was definitely pre morrowind.mDKs are shafted but that is more of a class problem. Nobody used power lash pre-morrowind. The other morph just needs to be buffed enough to the point where is is usable in PVE.Edited by Siliziumdioxid on January 10, 2018 2:03AMGuild: Ancaria1 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭rustic_potato wrote: »Heavy attack builds are boring af. It is easy to learn and master no challenge whatsoever. If that is the goal those builds still work.
I see a DPS scaling like this
HA builds < Simplified Skill Rotation < Complex situational skill and HA usage.
The difficulty also should have scaled like this but HA rotations were doing more than complex rotations and this change takes it back to the ZOS intended order of skilled play.
mDKs are shafted but that is more of a class problem. Nobody used power lash pre-morrowind. The other morph just needs to be buffed enough to the point where is is usable in PVE.
"Complex" does not work with "MMO". The "massively multiplayer" part counters it in that most people are not capable of handling "complex".
I used to be more capable of handling complex myself but I have had hand issues due to real life work(not injuries, just repetitive stress) that have caused me to no longer be capable of these things. I never was that fond of them in the first place.
It's funny. The most complex action combat games are fighting games. How many people can compete on a high level on those?
If that isn't common when they don't even have to worry about online lag because they are offline then "complex action combat" will never ever work in an MMO.
There is a reason that probably the most popular build on ESO right now is the "easy mode sorcerer". It works and it works without killing your hands and making you sweat profusely.
I don't know about you, but I don't like to smell like my gym bag, especially when not at the gym.0 -
rustic_potato✭✭✭✭✭Siliziumdioxid wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »Heavy attack builds are boring af. It is easy to learn and master no challenge whatsoever. If that is the goal those builds still work.
I see a DPS scaling like this
HA builds < Simplified Skill Rotation < Complex situational skill and HA usage.
The difficulty also should have scaled like this but HA rotations were doing more than complex rotations and this change takes it back to the ZOS intended order of skilled play.
Two Points:
1. In theory you would use the oversustain from doing more heavy attacks than necessary to dump your spare magicka for either some high cost but high damage skills at some point (perfect example here would be the use of daedric tombs) or to use a setoption that requires an ridiculous amount of sustain but grants a strong buff (an example would be kena pre morrowind where the 2 consecutive light attacks were not needed in order to proc it, however there are no sets right now that allow for this). Actually two pretty common heavy attack rotation for sorc and templar are pretty much doing this by overcasting dots (pet + lightning flood + blockade + daedric curse + 1x heavy ) or by using double clench. They deal high damage but you are bound to run dry.
2. Not all Heavy attack builds are simple and mindless:
StamDK: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZVKcUvHSM[/url]
this build is way different from the usual hold your left mouse button pressed for an entire front bar. It is complicated, your animation-canceling has to be on point or you either lose lots of time or you cancel to fast and don't cast abilities at all. (Actually i am still trying to keep hawk eye up in raids and dungeons but solely out of boredom)
For the complexity this rotation has i feel like it should wield more dps however it does not.
Magicka: I know that especially Lightning heavy attack are clunky, they slow you, they last 2.2 seconds, you can get stuck in a lightning heavy, you can't reliably use some abilities at the end of it, you can not blockcast them etc. But: you can't mindlessly spam them. More than 80% of your damage comes from your DoT's independently if you are using a spammable or not. That means your top priority is still to keep your DoT's up that makes your options to fit in a 2.2 second heavy attack very limited. A heavy attack you have to fit between two skills or you have to do right after a bar swap in order to be time efficient. The workaround here it is to either swap cancel lightning medium attacks, using a spammable to fit the remaining time or by overcasting DoT's. each of this options has it's detriments. I mean it breaks with the usual LA -> Skill -> LA -> Skill -> ... you still do that on a heavy attack builds you are just not following it strictly enough to be called Light attack rotation.
I just don't know why there is so much bias against Magicka HA Builds. For Example Alcast uploaded a video a while ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEuhVM7dehc
What is the point of that video? Any good theory crafter knows that his HA Build is missing one of the core points a HA Build should have. What does that run demonstrate?
during homestead there was an ongoing discussion in my raidguild whether off balance is getting removed by the power lash often enough so that mdks should or should not use it for the groups sake... and this was definitely pre morrowind.mDKs are shafted but that is more of a class problem. Nobody used power lash pre-morrowind. The other morph just needs to be buffed enough to the point where is is usable in PVE.
I agree that complex rotations should get more DPS than simplified rotations. However that's not entirely true on live cos heavies are extremely overpowered when used in tandem with off balance.
For example
The sorc pulse frags curse rotation should do more DPS than just using LL wall pet and doing 2 heavies. The former was one of the most rewarding build for a DPS. If you had the ability to juggle your skills you got more DPS. Unfortunately the latter does more DPS now on live.
mDK rotation for top DPS was one of the most engaging builds to play pre morrowind. You had 7 dots 5 with different durations. If you could keep the dots up on cooldown you would do upwardas of 50k in raid buffed situations for single target.
mNB are the only class on live where you can have that luxury now.
For stam vMA rotation was similar. The current HA rotations for stam are braindead compared to that.
Flame Lash consuming off balance was determined pretty early in Homestead PTS there were outliers who ran that morph but those were the exception.Edited by rustic_potato on January 10, 2018 2:25AMI play how I want to.2 -
rustic_potato✭✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »Heavy attack builds are boring af. It is easy to learn and master no challenge whatsoever. If that is the goal those builds still work.
I see a DPS scaling like this
HA builds < Simplified Skill Rotation < Complex situational skill and HA usage.
The difficulty also should have scaled like this but HA rotations were doing more than complex rotations and this change takes it back to the ZOS intended order of skilled play.
mDKs are shafted but that is more of a class problem. Nobody used power lash pre-morrowind. The other morph just needs to be buffed enough to the point where is is usable in PVE.
"Complex" does not work with "MMO". The "massively multiplayer" part counters it in that most people are not capable of handling "complex".
I used to be more capable of handling complex myself but I have had hand issues due to real life work(not injuries, just repetitive stress) that have caused me to no longer be capable of these things. I never was that fond of them in the first place.
It's funny. The most complex action combat games are fighting games. How many people can compete on a high level on those?
If that isn't common when they don't even have to worry about online lag because they are offline then "complex action combat" will never ever work in an MMO.
There is a reason that probably the most popular build on ESO right now is the "easy mode sorcerer". It works and it works without killing your hands and making you sweat profusely.
I don't know about you, but I don't like to smell like my gym bag, especially when not at the gym.
I think you misunderstood my point. If you want a easy rotation for DPS the HA rotation will still work. LL fire blockade and HA alone will give 20k+ on a dummy.
The point is there are players who are just bored of the HA. I made a mNB and mastered it just because i didnt want to DPS on a class that solely relied on HA for DPS. Having other options than just heavy attacking as your spammable if good for the game. The numbers may need tweaking to meet the DPS curve requirements.I play how I want to.0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭rustic_potato wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »Heavy attack builds are boring af. It is easy to learn and master no challenge whatsoever. If that is the goal those builds still work.
I see a DPS scaling like this
HA builds < Simplified Skill Rotation < Complex situational skill and HA usage.
The difficulty also should have scaled like this but HA rotations were doing more than complex rotations and this change takes it back to the ZOS intended order of skilled play.
mDKs are shafted but that is more of a class problem. Nobody used power lash pre-morrowind. The other morph just needs to be buffed enough to the point where is is usable in PVE.
"Complex" does not work with "MMO". The "massively multiplayer" part counters it in that most people are not capable of handling "complex".
I used to be more capable of handling complex myself but I have had hand issues due to real life work(not injuries, just repetitive stress) that have caused me to no longer be capable of these things. I never was that fond of them in the first place.
It's funny. The most complex action combat games are fighting games. How many people can compete on a high level on those?
If that isn't common when they don't even have to worry about online lag because they are offline then "complex action combat" will never ever work in an MMO.
There is a reason that probably the most popular build on ESO right now is the "easy mode sorcerer". It works and it works without killing your hands and making you sweat profusely.
I don't know about you, but I don't like to smell like my gym bag, especially when not at the gym.
I think you misunderstood my point. If you want a easy rotation for DPS the HA rotation will still work. LL fire blockade and HA alone will give 20k+ on a dummy.
The point is there are players who are just bored of the HA. I made a mNB and mastered it just because i didnt want to DPS on a class that solely relied on HA for DPS. Having other options than just heavy attacking as your spammable if good for the game. The numbers may need tweaking to meet the DPS curve requirements.
No. I got that.
But the change they are making is nerfing the one to support the other. That is not good for the health of the game. They should improve the complex rotation to do that , if they can.0 -
rustic_potato✭✭✭✭✭Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »Heavy attack builds are boring af. It is easy to learn and master no challenge whatsoever. If that is the goal those builds still work.
I see a DPS scaling like this
HA builds < Simplified Skill Rotation < Complex situational skill and HA usage.
The difficulty also should have scaled like this but HA rotations were doing more than complex rotations and this change takes it back to the ZOS intended order of skilled play.
mDKs are shafted but that is more of a class problem. Nobody used power lash pre-morrowind. The other morph just needs to be buffed enough to the point where is is usable in PVE.
"Complex" does not work with "MMO". The "massively multiplayer" part counters it in that most people are not capable of handling "complex".
I used to be more capable of handling complex myself but I have had hand issues due to real life work(not injuries, just repetitive stress) that have caused me to no longer be capable of these things. I never was that fond of them in the first place.
It's funny. The most complex action combat games are fighting games. How many people can compete on a high level on those?
If that isn't common when they don't even have to worry about online lag because they are offline then "complex action combat" will never ever work in an MMO.
There is a reason that probably the most popular build on ESO right now is the "easy mode sorcerer". It works and it works without killing your hands and making you sweat profusely.
I don't know about you, but I don't like to smell like my gym bag, especially when not at the gym.
I think you misunderstood my point. If you want a easy rotation for DPS the HA rotation will still work. LL fire blockade and HA alone will give 20k+ on a dummy.
The point is there are players who are just bored of the HA. I made a mNB and mastered it just because i didnt want to DPS on a class that solely relied on HA for DPS. Having other options than just heavy attacking as your spammable if good for the game. The numbers may need tweaking to meet the DPS curve requirements.
No. I got that.
But the change they are making is nerfing the one to support the other. That is not good for the health of the game. They should improve the complex rotation to do that , if they can.
I'm going to assume you havent played this game for long. This is how ZOS balances. They nerf more than they buff to the point I can say I have relearned this game 3 times so far from the times they broke all my builds and setups. Its more of a MOBA style balance rather than a MMO style balancing.Edited by rustic_potato on January 10, 2018 2:42AMI play how I want to.0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭rustic_potato wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »Heavy attack builds are boring af. It is easy to learn and master no challenge whatsoever. If that is the goal those builds still work.
I see a DPS scaling like this
HA builds < Simplified Skill Rotation < Complex situational skill and HA usage.
The difficulty also should have scaled like this but HA rotations were doing more than complex rotations and this change takes it back to the ZOS intended order of skilled play.
mDKs are shafted but that is more of a class problem. Nobody used power lash pre-morrowind. The other morph just needs to be buffed enough to the point where is is usable in PVE.
"Complex" does not work with "MMO". The "massively multiplayer" part counters it in that most people are not capable of handling "complex".
I used to be more capable of handling complex myself but I have had hand issues due to real life work(not injuries, just repetitive stress) that have caused me to no longer be capable of these things. I never was that fond of them in the first place.
It's funny. The most complex action combat games are fighting games. How many people can compete on a high level on those?
If that isn't common when they don't even have to worry about online lag because they are offline then "complex action combat" will never ever work in an MMO.
There is a reason that probably the most popular build on ESO right now is the "easy mode sorcerer". It works and it works without killing your hands and making you sweat profusely.
I don't know about you, but I don't like to smell like my gym bag, especially when not at the gym.
I think you misunderstood my point. If you want a easy rotation for DPS the HA rotation will still work. LL fire blockade and HA alone will give 20k+ on a dummy.
The point is there are players who are just bored of the HA. I made a mNB and mastered it just because i didnt want to DPS on a class that solely relied on HA for DPS. Having other options than just heavy attacking as your spammable if good for the game. The numbers may need tweaking to meet the DPS curve requirements.
No. I got that.
But the change they are making is nerfing the one to support the other. That is not good for the health of the game. They should improve the complex rotation to do that , if they can.
I'm going to assume you havent played this game for long. This is how ZOS balances.
I know that. That doesn't make it right though, thus my comments.0