[PvP] mDK changes

Quantum_V · January 2018

Hello everyone,

Well, at this point in time we all know that you can spam 4-5 powerlashes on CC immune targets 'cause Powerlash doesn't consume offbalance unless it stuns your opponent. This is most likely not gonna make it to live as it is WAY to strong to be able to spam a high damage, undodgeable, healing skill for 0 cost. And honestly, mDKs need no further buffs apart from maybe reworking banner as an ult.

HOWEVER

We also aren't in a position where we can take nerfs. Therefore, when addressing this PLEASE be careful not to make Powerlash consume offbalance, 'cause at that point we'll have a 7s cooldown to proc powerlash again. I just feel that this might be the most obvious change, but this will result in a considerable nerf to mdks in pvp.

Lets think this through to find other possible solutions (I'll increase the list if we get some ideas in this thread):

Make powerlash have a cooldown of like x (maybe 2.5 or so) seconds before it can proc again.
Make it so you powerlash twice before consuming offbalance
Proc powerlash off burning status effect
Make it so every other flamelash is a powerlash

Sincerely,

Quantum

OBS.: Thanks for the changes, ZoS. Overall really liked them, specially the AOE caps reversal! Keep it up!

Hutch679 · January 2018

5 sec cool down. The fact that they can permablock (although block has been nerfed) and spam power lash makes them ridiculously tanky....

casparian · January 2018

Someone suggested in another thread that Lash should proc on Burning instead of Off-Balance. Whether that status effect or another, it could be worth decoupling Lash from an effect that's so central to PVE balance. It would certainly make it easier to balance mDKs.

Introducing a cooldown specific to Lash is probably the easiest solution, but I think many past nerfs have taught us that easiest != best.

Kilandros · January 2018

I'd be interested to see/test Power Lash proc off Burning effect rather than an arbitrary cooldown added. Burning can be purged and there's an RNG chance to apply it / cooldown when applying it off weapon enchant.

Right now, Power Lash seems overbuffed in dueling situations (can't really test true open world PvP on PTS), but I'm worried that adding a cooldown to the proc will result in an over nerf. Might be time to untether it from off balance tbh.

Edit - Honestly adding any cooldown would effectively revert the buff to Power Lash completely. On Live you can Power Lash every couple of seconds. If we add a 2-second cooldown, then we can only Power Lash every couple of seconds.

ak_pvp · January 2018

Hutch679 wrote: »

5 sec cool down. The fact that they can permablock (although block has been nerfed) and spam power lash makes them ridiculously tanky....

Can't permablock as you said. Lash spam will be gone. No other good defense bar block, wings is aids. Low mobility, an argument could be made for chains but its dodgy. Mist is awful, reliance on dots. Also, the only thing DK gains from block is 5% mit (10% but actually 5 because block is 50% damage reduce)

On the matter at hand, Lash via CC has its own ICD, not even per person, so offbalance every 5s would prevent lash via interrupt. Which is why 2.5s is the best choice for cooldown. Hell, even no cooldown and make it 2 whips per offbalance. That way you either get a stun, or an extra free lash.

Kilandros · January 2018

Hutch679 wrote: »

5 sec cool down. The fact that they can permablock (although block has been nerfed) and spam power lash makes them ridiculously tanky....

A 5 sec cool down would be a straight up nerf to what Power Lash is on Live. Please chill with the sky-is-falling rhetoric.

ak_pvp · January 2018

Pls no lash off burning. I like the current offbalance way because it feels like they are exploiting a vulnerability. And since burning is up so much it'd probably break worse. Which as we know = nerfs.

Kilandros · January 2018

Can we just take a minute to appreciate how reasonable DK players are that they can talk honestly and openly about whether or not an ability of theirs has been overbuffed? If this was a Sorc thread, a zerg of feral Sorcs would be spamming the thread exclaiming that the ability is still weak should be further buffed ;D

Joy_Division · January 2018

casparian wrote: »

Someone suggested in another thread that Lash should proc on Burning instead of Off-Balance. Whether that status effect or another, it could be worth decoupling Lash from an effect that's so central to PVE balance. It would certainly make it easier to balance mDKs.

It's been a long time since I've played DK seriously. But I do recall having the ability to consciously set-up a reliable Power Lash was appealing. Burning is pure RNG aside from an Asylum Staff IIRC.

The 2 Whips per off-balance was an interesting suggestion

Xvorg · January 2018

Hutch679 wrote: »

5 sec cool down. The fact that they can permablock (although block has been nerfed) and spam power lash makes them ridiculously tanky....

No please, that will force mDKs stacking with one seting of ballance and the rest taking turns to powerlash

Xvorg · January 2018

Kilandros wrote: »

Can we just take a minute to appreciate how reasonable DK players are that they can talk honestly and openly about whether or not an ability of theirs has been overbuffed? If this was a Sorc thread, a zerg of feral Sorcs would be spamming the thread exclaiming that the ability is still weak should be further buffed ;D

Xvorg · January 2018

One of the experiments I made some moths ago was a mDK using Medium armor and setting off balance with tactician. An interesting fact I found was this:

Off Balance -> Power lash -> Stun -> Flame lash -> off Balance -> Power lash -> Stun -> CC immunity

I think it's a decent approach, at least for PvE. For PvP, it rarely work (CC rarely works on PvP).

IDK if this is working currently, but I think it is a better than the powerlash spam

pieratsos · January 2018

Kilandros wrote: »

Can we just take a minute to appreciate how reasonable DK players are that they can talk honestly and openly about whether or not an ability of theirs has been overbuffed? If this was a Sorc thread, a zerg of feral Sorcs would be spamming the thread exclaiming that the ability is still weak should be further buffed ;D

Actual sorcs talk about how stupid shieldstacking is and other mechanics as well. Just like actual DKs recognize that power lash spam is stupid. The only people that spam sorc threads are potatoes that never played the class and they are whining about every single sorc ability in the game because sorcs are good at killing plebs and usually resort to arguments like "streak draining ur magicka is a buff to sorcs cause the people chasing u lose stamina". And no im not kidding. That was an actual argument someone used to say that sorcs are OP.

Bias isnt good so please dont talk about reasonable people. Potatoes and stupid people play in every class.

Aerem · January 2018

I am also all for getting the powerlash to proc off of burning, would incentive more dots, which the class is based off of.

Xvorg · January 2018

Aerem wrote: »

I am also all for getting the powerlash to proc off of burning, would incentive more dots, which the class is based off of.

Besides the heal?

Because I don't want to trade the burning for the heal, you can proc the burning effect by using power lash and a charged weapon. In fact, I think the burning effect on Power lash is a bad idea, since a couple of times you will be hitting a guy with burning effect on, so the change adds nothing in that case.

Though I'd be glad power lash gives minor defile

kojou · January 2018

The more I read posts like these the more I think Magicka DK is going to get destroyed with this patch.

I feel like these forum posts are like making a wish on a monkey paw. Yes, it will get answered by development, but it will be in some twisted undesirable way that ruins the skill.

Xvorg · January 2018

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

The more I read posts like these the more I think Magicka DK is going to get destroyed with this patch.

I feel like these forum posts are like making a wish on a monkey paw. Yes, it will get answered by development, but it will be in some twisted undesirable way that ruins the skill.

@ztyhurstub17_ESO

Experience dictates that changes must come from the same class community BEFORE other class communities start asking for nerfs

We all want mDK buffed, what we don't want is an overbuff that leads to an overnerf

ak_pvp · January 2018

Kilandros wrote: »

Can we just take a minute to appreciate how reasonable DK players are that they can talk honestly and openly about whether or not an ability of theirs has been overbuffed? If this was a Sorc thread, a zerg of feral Sorcs would be spamming the thread exclaiming that the ability is still weak should be further buffed ;D

I would agree, but I am guessing because sorc sort of only has a singular identity due to the reliance on staff, whereas DK, whilst quite incredibly suck in openworld still has the ability to use a variety of setups. The same happens with stamDK when people want a nerf to block, because they have little identity without it.

kojou · January 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

The more I read posts like these the more I think Magicka DK is going to get destroyed with this patch.

I feel like these forum posts are like making a wish on a monkey paw. Yes, it will get answered by development, but it will be in some twisted undesirable way that ruins the skill.

@ztyhurstub17_ESO

Experience dictates that changes must come from the same class community BEFORE other class communities start asking for nerfs

We all want mDK buffed, what we don't want is an overbuff that leads to an overnerf

Experience also dictates that many times when development touches anything on the Magicka DK it only makes things worse... remember when we wanted them to rework Stone Fist because it was redundant with Fossilize?

I know what your saying, and maybe these new changes to off balance will make Magicka DK OP in PvP, but I don't think it is nearly as much of a problem as it is being made out to be. If your enemy is a potato and just stands there you can potentially cast 3 lashes (and in that case your enemy will get a valuable PvP combat lesson), but my experience has been that it is likely you will get one before he/she roll dodges/streaks/mist forms away from you and you don't get the second lash off before they lose off balance.

LonePirate · January 2018

I think it’s funny someone believes Power Lash is a high damage skill in PVP. I guess for a DK it is but compared to skills from the other classes, it’s weak sauce. It may be a fun and great skill in PVE; but it’s nothing special in PVP.

Quantum_V · January 2018

Well, I don't really like the the idea of making it proc on burning.

The reason is: it's focused too much on RNG when the actual powerlash is a skill which most dks use strategically.

Root, whip (set off balance), leap, powerlash (while the person is in the air)

This adds for a really nice burst combo for an mDK, which we generally lack. I'd really not like to see powerlash being an RNG proc...

What do you guys think?

casparian · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Someone suggested in another thread that Lash should proc on Burning instead of Off-Balance. Whether that status effect or another, it could be worth decoupling Lash from an effect that's so central to PVE balance. It would certainly make it easier to balance mDKs.

It's been a long time since I've played DK seriously. But I do recall having the ability to consciously set-up a reliable Power Lash was appealing. Burning is pure RNG aside from an Asylum Staff IIRC.

The 2 Whips per off-balance was an interesting suggestion

The only time I've spent on an mDK (not that much) was with BSW, so I got into a nice rhythm where I had Burning up reliably ever 12-13 seconds, meaning I got used to treating Burning as a predictable proc and not RNG. But of course for most mDK builds it would be RNG-based, and I certainly wouldn't want my burst combo to be that RNG-based on any of my main classes.

I'll leave and let the actually experienced mDKs talk about it.

Kilandros · January 2018

Quantum_V wrote: »

Well, I don't really like the the idea of making it proc on burning.

The reason is: it's focused too much on RNG when the actual powerlash is a skill which most dks use strategically.

Root, whip (set off balance), leap, powerlash (while the person is in the air)

This adds some really nice burst option to mDK, which we generally lack. I'd really not like to see powerlash being an RNG proc...

What do you guys think?

Really need to try and get some open-world gameplay with it before I advocate for change one way or the other. Realistically, how many players are going to just sit there and let you spam Power Lash on them? Not many I'd think. We might be kinda jumping the gun here.

ak_pvp · January 2018

LonePirate wrote: »

I think it’s funny someone believes Power Lash is a high damage skill in PVP. I guess for a DK it is but compared to skills from the other classes, it’s weak sauce. It may be a fun and great skill in PVE; but it’s nothing special in PVP.

My power whips hit 3k+ on very nearly everyone. On light/med opponents 7k crits is common. Even got a 9k whip against a 690cp sorc. Obviously more against low CP.

Aerem · January 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

Aerem wrote: »

I am also all for getting the powerlash to proc off of burning, would incentive more dots, which the class is based off of.

Besides the heal?

Because I don't want to trade the burning for the heal, you can proc the burning effect by using power lash and a charged weapon. In fact, I think the burning effect on Power lash is a bad idea, since a couple of times you will be hitting a guy with burning effect on, so the change adds nothing in that case.

Though I'd be glad power lash gives minor defile

I am advocating for the powerlash to proc off of burning instead of off balance

Glory · January 2018

I think it's reasonable to assume unlimited power lash exploits is not healthy for a 1v1-4 scenario (although it won't do jack against larger numbers). I agree that it may be worth investigating a cap on power lash, but do not feel that it would be a good idea to tie it to burning.

Burning is easily procc'ed via certain (very good) sets and also has a very high uptime in PvE, which would give mDK a ridiculous uptime on power lash.

That being said, I fear that the skill will be overnerfed as a result of all the outcry, but I seriously doubt that ZOS did not look into this being a reality of the off-balance changes. In other words: ZOS clearly knew that Flame Lash would be heavily affected by off-balance in both PvE and PvP, and still felt like this was the appropriate adjustment to make.

Xvorg · January 2018

Aerem wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Aerem wrote: »

I am also all for getting the powerlash to proc off of burning, would incentive more dots, which the class is based off of.

Besides the heal?

Because I don't want to trade the burning for the heal, you can proc the burning effect by using power lash and a charged weapon. In fact, I think the burning effect on Power lash is a bad idea, since a couple of times you will be hitting a guy with burning effect on, so the change adds nothing in that case.

Though I'd be glad power lash gives minor defile

I am advocating for the powerlash to proc off of burning instead of off balance

Don't like it either

Xvorg · January 2018

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

The more I read posts like these the more I think Magicka DK is going to get destroyed with this patch.

I feel like these forum posts are like making a wish on a monkey paw. Yes, it will get answered by development, but it will be in some twisted undesirable way that ruins the skill.

@ztyhurstub17_ESO

Experience dictates that changes must come from the same class community BEFORE other class communities start asking for nerfs

We all want mDK buffed, what we don't want is an overbuff that leads to an overnerf

Experience also dictates that many times when development touches anything on the Magicka DK it only makes things worse... remember when we wanted them to rework Stone Fist because it was redundant with Fossilize?

I know what your saying, and maybe these new changes to off balance will make Magicka DK OP in PvP, but I don't think it is nearly as much of a problem as it is being made out to be. If your enemy is a potato and just stands there you can potentially cast 3 lashes (and in that case your enemy will get a valuable PvP combat lesson), but my experience has been that it is likely you will get one before he/she roll dodges/streaks/mist forms away from you and you don't get the second lash off before they lose off balance.

Just consider this, enemy DKs also attack you

Just think about every Vamp DK. It is not a healthy move. And think about grops in which a stam char sets off balance enemies just by dodge rolling

ak_pvp · January 2018

Please don't have it proc on burning, it'd change too much up with what isn't really an issue on live.

It makes sense on off-balance and is more reliable. Burning whilst up a lot is still rng and could even end up with too much power lash like pts now.

In my ideal world it'd proc on any cc, consuming if enemy is stunned or if it is used twice. The issue is it becomes useless for PVE though.

krathos · January 2018

I don't think the current power lash should go live nor do I think it will. @Quantum_V youre right that ZOS will likely overcompensate and nerf it heavily as a result before live and if they somehow let it go live you can kiss power lash goodbye the patch following... that's just their style. I'd like it to stay as close to live as possible. Other than that, I just want major expedition for 10s on wings and a couple small passive changes.

Ariades_swe · January 2018

Hutch679 wrote: »

5 sec cool down. The fact that they can permablock (although block has been nerfed) and spam power lash makes them ridiculously tanky....

I agree it needs tuned the way it is on test but you want them to be worse than on live?
SMH