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Should 2h weapons count as 2 items for set bonus?
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Sweetpea704✭✭✭✭YesSheezabeast wrote: »No, and this topic is soooo old and silly. If you want 2, use Dw or SnB. Choosing a 2h has its benefits and downsides, as it should.
Except the Devs are actually looking at this. Rich Lambert said so in the video of the DLC Preview, after someone asked the question. Why shouldn't everyone get to wear two sets and a monster set, especially since dual wield and bow is doing the best damage right now in Stam set ups. I can do more damage than even my Summoner Trials build and they are supposedly going to nerf that build by taking the debuff away from lightning staff.
Sweetpea0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NoWhy would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YesLiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
Well it's not like they have a weapon damage passive instead or anything. What's your point?DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NoLiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
Well it's not like they have a weapon damage passive instead or anything. What's your point?
My point is in the post. It's pretty clear.
This isn't a contest to measure whose passives are better. That's certainly not the point. The point is that many people use the second 5-piece to attain something that other builds get passively. The point is to demonstrate that, despite what people seem to think here, the fact that 2H weapons don't count as 2 set pieces is already factored into the balance of other skill lines in the game, e.g., the devs at ZOS aren't fools and didn't build the game like this just to screw 2H users.
And again, huge stretches of this game have been dominated by magicka-based builds, despite the "disadvantage" of 2H weapons, which (again) entirely disproves the notion that this "disadvantage" means anything at all. There was a time not that long ago when we ran 8 mag DPS in Trials, even 8 magsorcs, because they were doing 70k DPS in raid with insane AoE from range with shields.
As others have said, "wands" or some other new melee magicka weapon type is a good proposal. Thus magicka users can choose to benefit from 5/5/2 setups (like they used to with DW magplars and the like) while also having to deal with the disadvantage of playing in melee range.Edited by LiquidPony on January 8, 2018 6:01PM1 -
jaye63✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
Well it's not like they have a weapon damage passive instead or anything. What's your point?
My point is in the post. It's pretty clear.
This isn't a contest to measure whose passives are better. That's certainly not the point. The point is that many people use the second 5-piece to attain something that other builds get passively. The point is to demonstrate that, despite what people seem to think here, the fact that 2H weapons don't count as 2 set pieces is already factored into the balance of other skill lines in the game, e.g., the devs at ZOS aren't fools and didn't build the game like this just to screw 2H users.
And again, huge stretches of this game have been dominated by magicka-based builds, despite the "disadvantage" of 2H weapons, which (again) entirely disproves the notion that this "disadvantage" means anything at all. There was a time not that long ago when we ran 8 mag DPS in Trials, even 8 magsorcs, because they were doing 70k DPS in raid with insane AoE from range with shields.
As others have said, "wands" or some other new melee magicka weapon type is a good proposal. Thus magicka users can choose to benefit from 5/5/2 setups (like they used to with DW magplars and the like) while also having to deal with the disadvantage of playing in melee range.
And I guess you missed me saying... you buy the game with what it has and play it. You dont grab a single player game and call the company and complain that 2 handers dont get what sword and board or dual wielders get. Stop asking for stuff that can cause bugs.0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NoLiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
Well it's not like they have a weapon damage passive instead or anything. What's your point?
My point is in the post. It's pretty clear.
This isn't a contest to measure whose passives are better. That's certainly not the point. The point is that many people use the second 5-piece to attain something that other builds get passively. The point is to demonstrate that, despite what people seem to think here, the fact that 2H weapons don't count as 2 set pieces is already factored into the balance of other skill lines in the game, e.g., the devs at ZOS aren't fools and didn't build the game like this just to screw 2H users.
And again, huge stretches of this game have been dominated by magicka-based builds, despite the "disadvantage" of 2H weapons, which (again) entirely disproves the notion that this "disadvantage" means anything at all. There was a time not that long ago when we ran 8 mag DPS in Trials, even 8 magsorcs, because they were doing 70k DPS in raid with insane AoE from range with shields.
As others have said, "wands" or some other new melee magicka weapon type is a good proposal. Thus magicka users can choose to benefit from 5/5/2 setups (like they used to with DW magplars and the like) while also having to deal with the disadvantage of playing in melee range.
And I guess you missed me saying... you buy the game with what it has and play it. You dont grab a single player game and call the company and complain that 2 handers dont get what sword and board or dual wielders get. Stop asking for stuff that can cause bugs.
@jaye63 I don't recall addressing you at any point. Note that I voted "no" and please take a moment to actually read the comment you quoted.Edited by LiquidPony on January 8, 2018 6:08PM0 -
SugaComa✭✭✭✭✭YesBobby_V_Rockit wrote: »If staves are really a 2h item, why are they only held in one hand? I never seen my sorc have both his hands on it, always just the one.
Blocking ...
But yes I agree
Staff and shield would be great0 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YesLich back bar effectively gives me 2 5 PC at the same time so why not? Makes things simplerFlawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info0 -
jaye63✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
Well it's not like they have a weapon damage passive instead or anything. What's your point?
My point is in the post. It's pretty clear.
This isn't a contest to measure whose passives are better. That's certainly not the point. The point is that many people use the second 5-piece to attain something that other builds get passively. The point is to demonstrate that, despite what people seem to think here, the fact that 2H weapons don't count as 2 set pieces is already factored into the balance of other skill lines in the game, e.g., the devs at ZOS aren't fools and didn't build the game like this just to screw 2H users.
And again, huge stretches of this game have been dominated by magicka-based builds, despite the "disadvantage" of 2H weapons, which (again) entirely disproves the notion that this "disadvantage" means anything at all. There was a time not that long ago when we ran 8 mag DPS in Trials, even 8 magsorcs, because they were doing 70k DPS in raid with insane AoE from range with shields.
As others have said, "wands" or some other new melee magicka weapon type is a good proposal. Thus magicka users can choose to benefit from 5/5/2 setups (like they used to with DW magplars and the like) while also having to deal with the disadvantage of playing in melee range.
And I guess you missed me saying... you buy the game with what it has and play it. You dont grab a single player game and call the company and complain that 2 handers dont get what sword and board or dual wielders get. Stop asking for stuff that can cause bugs.
@jaye63 I don't recall addressing you at any point. Note that I voted "no" and please take a moment to actually read the comment you quoted.
misquote. been a long morning already.1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NoLiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
Well it's not like they have a weapon damage passive instead or anything. What's your point?
My point is in the post. It's pretty clear.
This isn't a contest to measure whose passives are better. That's certainly not the point. The point is that many people use the second 5-piece to attain something that other builds get passively. The point is to demonstrate that, despite what people seem to think here, the fact that 2H weapons don't count as 2 set pieces is already factored into the balance of other skill lines in the game, e.g., the devs at ZOS aren't fools and didn't build the game like this just to screw 2H users.
And again, huge stretches of this game have been dominated by magicka-based builds, despite the "disadvantage" of 2H weapons, which (again) entirely disproves the notion that this "disadvantage" means anything at all. There was a time not that long ago when we ran 8 mag DPS in Trials, even 8 magsorcs, because they were doing 70k DPS in raid with insane AoE from range with shields.
As others have said, "wands" or some other new melee magicka weapon type is a good proposal. Thus magicka users can choose to benefit from 5/5/2 setups (like they used to with DW magplars and the like) while also having to deal with the disadvantage of playing in melee range.
And I guess you missed me saying... you buy the game with what it has and play it. You dont grab a single player game and call the company and complain that 2 handers dont get what sword and board or dual wielders get. Stop asking for stuff that can cause bugs.
@jaye63 I don't recall addressing you at any point. Note that I voted "no" and please take a moment to actually read the comment you quoted.
misquote. been a long morning already.
Got it. Sorry for being snappy. This thread has been (as expected) full of entitled millennials throwing a hissy fit because they can't get things exactly the way they want them.
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jaye63✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
Well it's not like they have a weapon damage passive instead or anything. What's your point?
My point is in the post. It's pretty clear.
This isn't a contest to measure whose passives are better. That's certainly not the point. The point is that many people use the second 5-piece to attain something that other builds get passively. The point is to demonstrate that, despite what people seem to think here, the fact that 2H weapons don't count as 2 set pieces is already factored into the balance of other skill lines in the game, e.g., the devs at ZOS aren't fools and didn't build the game like this just to screw 2H users.
And again, huge stretches of this game have been dominated by magicka-based builds, despite the "disadvantage" of 2H weapons, which (again) entirely disproves the notion that this "disadvantage" means anything at all. There was a time not that long ago when we ran 8 mag DPS in Trials, even 8 magsorcs, because they were doing 70k DPS in raid with insane AoE from range with shields.
As others have said, "wands" or some other new melee magicka weapon type is a good proposal. Thus magicka users can choose to benefit from 5/5/2 setups (like they used to with DW magplars and the like) while also having to deal with the disadvantage of playing in melee range.
And I guess you missed me saying... you buy the game with what it has and play it. You dont grab a single player game and call the company and complain that 2 handers dont get what sword and board or dual wielders get. Stop asking for stuff that can cause bugs.
@jaye63 I don't recall addressing you at any point. Note that I voted "no" and please take a moment to actually read the comment you quoted.
misquote. been a long morning already.
Got it. Sorry for being snappy. This thread has been (as expected) full of entitled millennials throwing a hissy fit because they can't get things exactly the way they want them.
No probs mate... I leave my emotions at the login. Ok, I keep smarty pants and SMH, but I dont get mad.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tha answer to the poll is I think yes and no.
The most important part, at least did dps, it hasn't really mattered. We just left a meta where almost all top damage builds used a 2h weapon. DW was left behind. And sometime in the next year it will likely happen again.0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YesLiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
So people use the sets that give them the most damage? You must be genius.0 -
lao✭✭✭✭Yes
327 thoughts on the topic, which is coincidentally also the number of threads on the subject that already exist on the forum and no, most people still don't like the idea, no matter how many times the same question is repeated by the same 5 players over and over again.Thoughts on this topic?
yet 63% have voted yes. i suggest you check ur maths0 -
SugaComa✭✭✭✭✭YesStaffs could be one handed paired with a shield
Depending on which hand depends on which skill line staff main you get the staff skill line
Shield on
Bows could be paired with arrow types, frost, flame, poison steal
As for two handed sword I'm not sure how they could be sorted with out making it the 1st and 5th piece to give them the bonus
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Nelson_Rebel✭✭✭✭✭
✭YesI’ll say it again for reiteration
2h weapons (staves, swords, bows, etc..) Do NOT need to count as a 2 piece bonus
HOWEVER. There does need to be a duel wield magicka option. Currently the ONLY MAGIC WEAPONS are 2 handed staves. Naturally this limits build diversity by an entire set bonus versus stamina characters having both 2h weapons and duel wield options available to them WITHOUT sacrificing any damage or range due to the changes in many patches now. This has indirectly and negatively affected all magic builds.
****** Duel swords for magic is NOT an option since the changes to both the passives affecting ONLY physicians damage, and also heavy attacks only restore your weapons type of damage now, further enforcing magic to only use staves, having a resto staff n backbar is not enough for resource management in endgame and not an excuse to limit magic to only 1 5 piece set and monster set***Edited by Nelson_Rebel on January 8, 2018 7:33PM0 -
krachall✭✭✭✭✭
✭No
327 thoughts on the topic, which is coincidentally also the number of threads on the subject that already exist on the forum and no, most people still don't like the idea, no matter how many times the same question is repeated by the same 5 players over and over again.Thoughts on this topic?
yet 63% have voted yes. i suggest you check ur maths
Because this is Elder Staves Online. The staff is obviously so superior to other weapons that the vast majority of players are using that. That's indicative of a PROBLEM.
I personally like diversity. I like healers in heavy armor wielding a mace and shield. I like DPS using a 2h, dagger, 2 swords, or a bow. Instead, in every trial I run, it's 10.5 staves, a half a S&B, and me.
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SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No
yet 63% have voted yes. i suggest you check ur maths
327 thoughts on the topic, which is coincidentally also the number of threads on the subject that already exist on the forum and no, most people still don't like the idea, no matter how many times the same question is repeated by the same 5 players over and over again.Thoughts on this topic?
Right after you check your spelling ...
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ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YesLiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
Well it's not like they have a weapon damage passive instead or anything. What's your point?
My point is in the post. It's pretty clear.
This isn't a contest to measure whose passives are better. That's certainly not the point. The point is that many people use the second 5-piece to attain something that other builds get passively. The point is to demonstrate that, despite what people seem to think here, the fact that 2H weapons don't count as 2 set pieces is already factored into the balance of other skill lines in the game, e.g., the devs at ZOS aren't fools and didn't build the game like this just to screw 2H users.
And again, huge stretches of this game have been dominated by magicka-based builds, despite the "disadvantage" of 2H weapons, which (again) entirely disproves the notion that this "disadvantage" means anything at all. There was a time not that long ago when we ran 8 mag DPS in Trials, even 8 magsorcs, because they were doing 70k DPS in raid with insane AoE from range with shields.
As others have said, "wands" or some other new melee magicka weapon type is a good proposal. Thus magicka users can choose to benefit from 5/5/2 setups (like they used to with DW magplars and the like) while also having to deal with the disadvantage of playing in melee range.
If you don't actually compare the passives, then how could you possibly make a point about what is or isn't considered by the devs when balancing their game? And how do you explain 2 hand and bow counting as one set piece only? I hope you're not going to tell me now they're already better for dps if not for the fact they give a set bonus less. Or are players just not supposed to use them as main dps weapons?
Personally, I would assume the spell penetration and weapon damage passive are set up that way to provide some diversity between stamina and magicka builds, as where the old mundus stones. Which would also be the reason for the design of these physical penetration sets, except for Spriggans, which mirrors Spinner. These armor passives have absolutely nothing to do with the amount of set bonuses you get from different weapon types.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NoLiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
So people use the sets that give them the most damage? You must be genius.
Very productive addition to the conversation. Bravo.
Funny that the "yes" side of this conversation can't seem to get a point across without resorting to insults. To me, that says something about the quality of the arguments.
"I WANT 2H WEAPONS TO COUNT AS 2 SET PIECES AND IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME YOU ARE A BIG DUMB-DUMB HEAD."
That sums it up pretty well.
Get off my lawn.2 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YesLiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
So people use the sets that give them the most damage? You must be genius.
Very productive addition to the conversation. Bravo.
Funny that the "yes" side of this conversation can't seem to get a point across without resorting to insults. To me, that says something about the quality of the arguments.
"I WANT 2H WEAPONS TO COUNT AS 2 SET PIECES AND IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME YOU ARE A BIG DUMB-DUMB HEAD."
That sums it up pretty well.
Get off my lawn.
So you are not genius? My bad then. As for your argument, what other reaction you want? You just keep going around stating obvious things like it means something yet you present them like some grand observation nobody gets
Attention people, people use sets that give them most damage!
Attention people, if people get 12th set bonus they will deal more damage!
Do you have any actual argument or are you going to just run around here and keep saying people will get more damage from this. Because ZoS spent last 4 years constantly balancing magicka vs stamina DPS in PVE, yet you suddenly believe with this change they would do nothing to counter the very obvious gain in their performance? Plus you dont consider 2H or bow or ice staff at all in this, you just complain magicka builds get more dps.1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NoLiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
So people use the sets that give them the most damage? You must be genius.
Very productive addition to the conversation. Bravo.
Funny that the "yes" side of this conversation can't seem to get a point across without resorting to insults. To me, that says something about the quality of the arguments.
"I WANT 2H WEAPONS TO COUNT AS 2 SET PIECES AND IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME YOU ARE A BIG DUMB-DUMB HEAD."
That sums it up pretty well.
Get off my lawn.
So you are not genius? My bad then. As for your argument, what other reaction you want? You just keep going around stating obvious things like it means something yet you present them like some grand observation nobody gets
Attention people, people use sets that give them most damage!
Attention people, if people get 12th set bonus they will deal more damage!
Do you have any actual argument or are you going to just run around here and keep saying people will get more damage from this. Because ZoS spent last 4 years constantly balancing magicka vs stamina DPS in PVE, yet you suddenly believe with this change they would do nothing to counter the very obvious gain in their performance? Plus you dont consider 2H or bow or ice staff at all in this, you just complain magicka builds get more dps.
Please note:
1. Literally the question asked in this poll is: "Will it significantly affect balance?"
2. There are, literally, people in this thread stating that it will not affect balance. (e.g., "All I see 'no' people saying is 'because balance', but nobody actually gives credible example one about just what 'balance' is being preserved here. I'd like some actual examples to consider, because otherwise, I don't believe you and I'm not taking your word for it.")
In other words, if you actually took a minute to read through the thread and follow the arguments back to their sources, you'd prevent yourself from looking like a loud-mouthed fool.0 -
Bax✭✭✭beetleklee wrote: »I'd rather magicka users not be limited to staff only, like another skill line for dual wielding. Wands? Sword and Rune? Double casting with hands? The 2 handed staves get boring. It'd be cool to run two one-handed magic weapons front bar with staff backbar or something.
I like this idea, especially because I am missing some options which are available in original games, such as hands only combat or spell casting with hands. Some new weapon trees (or rather no weapon trees ) would be cool. 0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NoLiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
Well it's not like they have a weapon damage passive instead or anything. What's your point?
My point is in the post. It's pretty clear.
This isn't a contest to measure whose passives are better. That's certainly not the point. The point is that many people use the second 5-piece to attain something that other builds get passively. The point is to demonstrate that, despite what people seem to think here, the fact that 2H weapons don't count as 2 set pieces is already factored into the balance of other skill lines in the game, e.g., the devs at ZOS aren't fools and didn't build the game like this just to screw 2H users.
And again, huge stretches of this game have been dominated by magicka-based builds, despite the "disadvantage" of 2H weapons, which (again) entirely disproves the notion that this "disadvantage" means anything at all. There was a time not that long ago when we ran 8 mag DPS in Trials, even 8 magsorcs, because they were doing 70k DPS in raid with insane AoE from range with shields.
As others have said, "wands" or some other new melee magicka weapon type is a good proposal. Thus magicka users can choose to benefit from 5/5/2 setups (like they used to with DW magplars and the like) while also having to deal with the disadvantage of playing in melee range.
If you don't actually compare the passives, then how could you possibly make a point about what is or isn't considered by the devs when balancing their game? And how do you explain 2 hand and bow counting as one set piece only? I hope you're not going to tell me now they're already better for dps if not for the fact they give a set bonus less. Or are players just not supposed to use them as main dps weapons?
Personally, I would assume the spell penetration and weapon damage passive are set up that way to provide some diversity between stamina and magicka builds, as where the old mundus stones. Which would also be the reason for the design of these physical penetration sets, except for Spriggans, which mirrors Spinner. These armor passives have absolutely nothing to do with the amount of set bonuses you get from different weapon types.
So you're saying that ZOS doesn't factor in the passives available on certain types of builds or the setups typically used by those builds when designing sets or balancing combat?
That's an ... interesting take.
And yes, I would say it's pretty clear that the bow and 2H weapons are not intended to be optimal as the primary PvE DPS weapon, because they've never been optimal as a primary PvE DPS weapon. They are, however, great primary DPS weapons in PvP for certain types of builds.0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YesLiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
Well it's not like they have a weapon damage passive instead or anything. What's your point?
My point is in the post. It's pretty clear.
This isn't a contest to measure whose passives are better. That's certainly not the point. The point is that many people use the second 5-piece to attain something that other builds get passively. The point is to demonstrate that, despite what people seem to think here, the fact that 2H weapons don't count as 2 set pieces is already factored into the balance of other skill lines in the game, e.g., the devs at ZOS aren't fools and didn't build the game like this just to screw 2H users.
And again, huge stretches of this game have been dominated by magicka-based builds, despite the "disadvantage" of 2H weapons, which (again) entirely disproves the notion that this "disadvantage" means anything at all. There was a time not that long ago when we ran 8 mag DPS in Trials, even 8 magsorcs, because they were doing 70k DPS in raid with insane AoE from range with shields.
As others have said, "wands" or some other new melee magicka weapon type is a good proposal. Thus magicka users can choose to benefit from 5/5/2 setups (like they used to with DW magplars and the like) while also having to deal with the disadvantage of playing in melee range.
If you don't actually compare the passives, then how could you possibly make a point about what is or isn't considered by the devs when balancing their game? And how do you explain 2 hand and bow counting as one set piece only? I hope you're not going to tell me now they're already better for dps if not for the fact they give a set bonus less. Or are players just not supposed to use them as main dps weapons?
Personally, I would assume the spell penetration and weapon damage passive are set up that way to provide some diversity between stamina and magicka builds, as where the old mundus stones. Which would also be the reason for the design of these physical penetration sets, except for Spriggans, which mirrors Spinner. These armor passives have absolutely nothing to do with the amount of set bonuses you get from different weapon types.
So you're saying that ZOS doesn't factor in the passives available on certain types of builds or the setups typically used by those builds when designing sets or balancing combat?
That's an ... interesting take.
Stop trying to twist my words to fit your own understanding, please. You picked out a single light armor passive that actually has an quivalent in the medium armor tree and somehow built your argument about set bonuses on different weapons types on it, without any reasoning as to what the two have to do with each other. You even refused to compare the armor passives with each other in the first place, the one thing that would actually make sense if we are comparing balance between magicka and stamina dps.And yes, I would say it's pretty clear that the bow and 2H weapons are not intended to be optimal as the primary PvE DPS weapon, because they've never been optimal as a primary PvE DPS weapon. They are, however, great primary DPS weapons in PvP for certain types of builds.
You do realize that their performance in PvP limits ZOS's ability to balance them in PvE in accordance with their philosophy to make things work similar in different types of content whenever possible? The fact that 2 hand performs well in PvP makes it difficult to balance it for PvE.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU1 -
Slick_007✭✭✭✭✭
✭No
Any serious theorycrafter would be aware that there are many setups not in use because they would require 12 pieces on a two handed weapon. Likewise, such setups for dualwield or one hand/shield are meant for these weapon types and not optimized for two handed weapons, so people won't just use the same stuff on different weapon types.
any serious theorycrafter realises that this is by design and does need changing. if anything, those are the players who understand how things work moreso than you and most of the people in this thread. There are also many setups not in use because they suck. I mean why dont people just wear green non set pieces, i dont get it. 2h needs to be changed to make that a thing too.
you fail at logic. you are using people who actually wouldnt vote your way to try and prove your point. and have no idea what balance is.
I have a 2h toon, and a dw toon. they each have different play styles because the weapons are different. They do not need changing to satisfy the poor people who cant understand this. just because there are many people who are selfish and/or dont understand how they are balanced does not mean they need changing. Just means more players need educating.1 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YesLiquidPony wrote: »Why would it, its 1 item so it counts as 1 for the set bonus.
Because some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Funny thing that no one seems to consider ... what do a huge majority of 5/5/2 DW PvE stam setups do with that second 5-piece bonus? I'll give a hint: Twice-Fanged Serpent, Sunderflame, Spriggan's Thorns, Night Mother's Gaze.
In other words, often the second 5-piece bonus is just used to get a lesser benefit than PvE magicka DPS get from the Concentration passive.
You can get the same amount of physical penetration from Maces. Which staff do I choose to get spell penetration? Oh, wait... none of them.#CAREBEARMASTERRACE0
