So someone mentioned "Death Knight"

  • akredon_ESO
    akredon_ESO
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    I mean you could just have the Necromancer class... and then run heavy armor... Boom "death knight"

    Necromancer skill line similar to that of mage guild summon Skeletons, Zombies, Liches, Bone lords... i quiver at the thought....
    Edited by akredon_ESO on December 28, 2017 1:54AM
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    REACHMAN SHAMAN.

    DO IIITTT.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • ArchMikem
    ArchMikem
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    Zordrage wrote: »
    Basically Stamina Build Necromancer....

    Stammancer !!!!

    With many Magica class abilities with Stamina morphs....

    omg make it happen !!!!

    Knowing the how the other classes are, a Necromancer would have 98% Magic skills with only like, 2 Stam morphs. *coughCOUGHDragonknightCOUGHSorcerercough*
    CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA Two Star Warlord - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
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  • TheShadowScout
    TheShadowScout
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    Xundiin wrote: »
    Not really, what makes an Aedra and Daedra is not their alignment. It's one group sacrificed their power tomake Nirn while the other refused.
    So, what do you think "holy" means then?
    Good alignment?
    Not so... it is more a matter of perception I would say.

    The aedra sacrificed their power to create the world of nirn.
    They -created- it.
    That pretty much makes them the "gods" (Well, or at least "divines" ;) ) of nirn... and those on the other side the "demons" by default. So the people -living- in the world they created might call them "holy", and all that took the other side "unholy", except those dirty heretic cultists who worshop the daedra for their own reasons and call them "holy" and... actually I am not sure what cultists would call unholy... ;) but most templars would agree they need to be purged by sword and fire! ;)

    Now, look at the magic itself... we have one "Aedric Spear" line, all full of purifying light and such, and one "Daedric Summoning" line, all full of demon calling and dark magics... of course, one could argue those being mere cosmetics, but then... is that not always the case? Especially since "holy" and "unholy" often is entirely dependent on the point of view?

    I say, a mere difference in fluff does not change the nature something is derived from... and while you are quite right that is it not -exactly- "holy & unholy" it -IS- the elder scrolls version of the same basic concept...
    Xundiin wrote: »
    Meridia and Azura aren't technically evil, they are more neutral if anything. And if you go off lore, the "good" daedra are Maphala, Boethiah, and Azura.
    True enough. And some of the divines are also not quite "good" themselves, and more like neutral... heck, take the "good religion" of any time in history and you will find them being at best shades of grey... and loudly proclaiming the other religions "bad" just because they are not of their faith.
    But again, everyone chooses their own heaven. And their own hell.
    What is holy to some is heathen to others, what is despised as unholy by some is worthy of worship to others.

    That the elder scrolls go for more grey areas then the black/white alignment split always made them one of my favorites anyhow... ;)
    Xundiin wrote: »
    So, yeah, neither is holy magick vs unholy. Also, if you look back into lore. Healing spells where also in the same school as diseases. Because there isn't really a "holy" school of magic, it's life magic both the giving and taking.
    Look forward in the lore, you mean? ;)
    In ESO, before the schools of magic were established, it seems that is not the case yet... here we have several healing effect spells scattered all over the place, from nightblades lifesteal to the more clasical "cleric healing" restoring light, from green dragon blood to the wardens plant-based healing effects, from vigor to a sorcerors dark deals...

    But the general "archetype" of "holy" magic is pretty well domain of the ESO templar... healing and purifying and golden light, with some light-spears thrown in (likely because light-swords are a different franchise).
    And the general archetype portraced by daedric influences in magic... summonings, dark deals, curses and such... are more often that of daemons. Some in the ancient greek sense of the world, some in the more recent christianity-influenced sense.

    So in the end... Aedra are the next best thing to "holy" and Deadra the next best equivalent to "unholy" in the elder scrolls lore, even if the lore is not -quite- that "black and white". ;)
  • Azuramoonstar
    Azuramoonstar
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    Blood magic, holy magic, and unholy magic are not concepts in TES

    you haven't play TES enough.

    light and dark magic existed in Morrowind. As well as blood magic, necromancers are a thing and use this magic to reanimate corpses, take your blood for their health.

    Also soul trap. you trap souls into crystals to be used for enchanting and spell weaving.

    Many daedra exibit unholy magic. And you see holy magic in quests about the 9 divine.
    Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
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    Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.
  • Nemesis7884
    Nemesis7884
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    So someone mentioned "Death Knight"
    ...but there are no "death knights" in tamriel.
    The original concept after all was a knight who had been cursed by the gods for breaking their vows... and tamriels gods are not -that- narrow minded about such things, while neither are the knightly orders that strict to give rise to such legends.

    The general concept of a heavily armored undead warrior is still valid enough of course. After all, originally the "Death Knight" was the AD&D warrior equivalent to the mage-ish Lich as high-power undead, so while applying an "undead" template to a ESO magica character/NPC would result in a lich, applying the same template on a warrior might yield something similar to the classic death knight... which in tamriel, could happen in a great many ways. Ayleid magics, worm cult experiments, daedric deals or even merely a careless worded wish near one of clavicus viles shrines... any undead in heavy armor with elite level powers might fill the requirements.
    Blood magic, holy magic, and unholy magic are not concepts in TES
    You sure about this?
    Aedric magic?
    Daedric magic?
    That's holy and unholy right there... and the siphoning line does have a stronmg "blood magic" touch, as do some reachmen rituals...
    Where you -are- correct is that none of those are exclusively tied to any "death knight" legends in TES lore.

    i think you focus to much on what death knights are in other games - woodelfes or dwarves in elder scrolls are also not what they are in other games.... death knight can simply mean a necromancer in heavy armor
  • Cpt_Teemo
    Cpt_Teemo
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    Summoner class woo, all skills are all summons, one tree for necromancy, elemental, and animals !
    Edited by Cpt_Teemo on December 28, 2017 6:29AM
  • SHADOW2KK
    SHADOW2KK
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    Bring on the Dasati Death Knights

    Blood for the Blood God.

    Oh wait...
    Once I was a lamb, playing in a green field. Then the wolves came. Now I am an eagle and I fly in a different universe.

    Been taking heads since TeS 3 Morrowind..

    Been enjoying PvP tears since 2014

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    LvL 50 - Dragon Knight DC [PC-EU] = Khal-Bladez = (Mag DK)
    LvL 50 - Dragon Knight DC [PC-EU] = Tenakha Khan = (Stam DK)
    LvL 50 - Templar DC [PC-EU]] = Blades The Disgruntled = (Stamplar)
    LvL 50 - Night Blade DC [PC-EU] = Ghost Blades = (Assassin)
    LvL 50 - Night Blade DC [PC-EU] = Malekith The Shadow = (Mag NB)
    LvL 50 - Warden DC [PC-EU] = Crimson Blades = (Stamden)

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  • TheShadowScout
    TheShadowScout
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    i think you focus to much on what death knights are in other games - woodelfes or dwarves in elder scrolls are also not what they are in other games.... death knight can simply mean a necromancer in heavy armor
    Not quite.
    The general concept of "death knight" usualkly ends up with a strong emphasis on melee combat skills, unlike the "heavy armor necromancer". Since "necromancer" kinda implies a magica claracter...

    Like I mentioned, they are the stamina equivalent to the magica lich as "high danger undead". Usually with some hefty "curses" magic attacks thrown in for good measure. And an undead steed. And more often then not, a legion of undead in their wake.

    I suppode in ESO, the closest lorewise equivalent might be a fighty stamina dragon priest (as opposed to the usually more magically inclined ones we get) as "bossfight" for a draugr mound... maybe if they train a bit... ;)
  • Mitrenga
    Mitrenga
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    Something close to that was already in the game, it was the vampire saptank. Thanks to the changes, a build which is huge fun to play now crumbles in ashes.

    On the other hand, a stamina morphed necromancer is quite intriguing.
  • Drachenfier
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    My idea of it would be something that does a lot of health draining, DoT's that siphon health from the target to you (Not like Swallow Soul, that's a one hit DD with a HoT component).
  • Kalik_Gold
    Kalik_Gold
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    EQ1 Shadowknight memories
    Main: (PvP & PvE)
    Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar, the Vestige

    PvP:
    Aurik Siet'ka a Redguard Necromancer
    Cacique the Sage of Ius a Redguard Warden
    Jux Blackheart a Redguard Nightblade
    Goliath of Hammerfell a Redguard Dragonknight
    Kaotik Von Dae'mon a Redguard* Sorcerer

    PvP: (Specialty)
    Tyrus Septim an Imperial Lycan Sorcerer
    Tsar af-Bomba a Redguard Vampiric Nightblade (Bomber)
    Movárth Piquine a Nord Vampiric Necromancer
    Uri Ice-Heart the Twin a Nord Vampiric Warden
    Voa a Priest of Sep a Redguard* Necromancer

    PvE:
    Cinan Tharn an Imperial Dragonknight (Tank)
    Bates Vesuius of Dawnstar an Imperial Dragonknight (Damage)
    Herzog Zwei the Genesis an Akavari* Templar (Healer)
    Tav'i at-Shinji a Redguard** Warden (One-Bar)
    Lucky Hunch the Gambler - a Redguard Nightblade (Thief)

    Leveling...
    Two-Big-Horns an Argonian Arcanist
    Styx of Akatosh a Goblin* Arcanist
    Zenovia at-Tura a Redguard** Sorcerer
    Yesi af-Kalik a Redguard Templar
    ======
    Passives of another race used. (RP)
    *Breton
    **Imperial




    __________________________Backstories:_________________________

    Ras Kalik the Vestige, a renown Redguard warrior; He has been blessed to save Tamriel from Molag Bal’s destructive Planemeld while reuniting the Five Companions. His further accomplishments after defeating Molag Bal, has been to stop the destruction of Morrowind, the Clockwork City, return order to the isle of Summerset and create a new king in Wrothgar and a queen in Elsywer. These events have made him a living legend and continue to lead him into new adventures throughout Tamriel, as well as into the hearts of many ladies including the Elf Queen, Aryenn. Over many years of adventurous travels, Ras Kalik had become a loner, until he re-visited his homeland of Alik'r.

    Alik'r and it's cities were overrun by the undead Ra-Netu and therefore he made an allegiance with Alik'r's own Ash'abah tribe. These Ash'abah with his help, cleansed the city of Sentinel in Alik'r desert and it's surrounding areas of the undead brought to life by the Withered Hand. After rescuing Sentinel from the undead zombies, King Fahara’jad’s personal bodyguard the Goliath of Hammerfell, who was given this name by Imperials in the region; was asked to assist the tribe after learning of the defeat of the Withered Hand to the Ash'abah. Kalik promised Goliath he would task him with fighting living enemies on the battlefield if he so desired. Goliath being a Yokudan warrior wields a massive sword in respect to the Ansei, a gift given by the Imperial, Cinan Tharn. Not many soldiers are able to wield double two handed weapons, but Goliath loves to get up and personal in a fight, so he also carries a giant maul, both weapons laced with magical flames.

    Jux Blackheart is a master thief that masquerades as a Bard at the Sisters of the Sands inn, with his younger sidekick Lucky Hunch for pilfering and gambling during this time. Jux was known to infiltrate any towns bank vault he came across and even delved into Ayelid ruins without detection. Kalik can vividly recall the night he met the famed thief. Jux found himself rummaging thru a slightly inebriated Kalik’s pocket for too long, on a full-mooned night and because of his greed and the glimmer of his golden armor in the moonlight. He lost his left pinky fingertip as a lesson! But in return, he gained a new friend, as it was his first time since a child being caught red-handed...

    Upon arrival back in the Alik'r after many moons of adventuring, Ras Kalik ventures to Bergama. Visiting The Winking Jackal, he runs into Jux Blackheart, who introduces him to the coin game Crowns vs Forebearers (Heads vs Tails) and Golden Dwemer (RBG).... Jux constantly takes gold from the unfortunate thru theft or gambling, his biggest gambling victim is actually his partner in crime known as Lucky Hunch the Gambler. Lucky doesn't mind losing any gold coins to Jux... as Jux saved him from Altmer slavers in Summerset, by stealing a key and sending him on a boat to the mainland years prior. Lucky spent years in slavery with Khajiits in Summerset and picked up the art of subterfuge, using illusion magic disguises and stealing there.

    Kaotik Von’Daemon an outcast, and a half-caste between a Breton mother and a Redguard father. Kaotik become a pariah due to his conjuration of Daedra pets. He was taught healing magic during his childhood years by his Breton mother. His father due to Redguard customs exiled him from the desert, sending him by wagon caravan to be a soldier in the war in Cyrodiil. He happened to meet Kalik while traveling from Alik'r, during this long caravan ride the caravan he was in was ambushed in Bangkorai by a group of bandits. Kalik by chance was also traveling thru this area on his Auridon Warhorse (which was bestowed to him by his friend, Darien Gautier). During this ambush, Kalik was able to rescue five hostages from the bandits. Kaotik was the first rescued, and Ras Kalik also recruited him to be in the Ash'abah tribe. These core Ash'abah tribesmen may never be seen together in travel as they partake in their own adventures but they always know what each other is doing; as they frequent a hideout in northern Bankorai. Their hideout an old Orc castle ruin, is kept watch by Nuzhimeh and she passes messages written between them, and frequently they also enjoy her company and her bed.

    The other men rescued were a Dunmer banker, an Imperial mercenary and two other soldiers, an Imperial and a Breton Knight, stating proudly he was an Akavir descendent. One of the Imperials, Cinan, claimed to be related to Abnur Tharn the Battlemage of the Imperial Elder Council (One of Ras Kalik's mentors in the Five Companions). Cinan Tharn was really Abnur's drunkard treasure hunting illegitimate son. He was caught smuggling artifacts out of the Ayleid ruins in Cyrodiil and the elder of the two Imperials was Tyrus Septim a retired Imperial navy battle-mage (now a Lycan mercenary living in the city of Rimmen) and guard to the Tharn family. As much as Abnur Tharn hated his half-sister Euraxia, he dislikes his bas†ard son Cinan more. Tyrus now a ruffian and privateer had been paid by Abnur Tharn to watch over Cinan as much as possible. Cinan Tharn a drunkard, loves to drink at least a quarter barrel of Nord mead before he raids various delves and dungeons for relics to sell on the black market. Cinan also plans to one day, run an illegal gambling ring... which he thinks will net him more gold for his wares.

    The Dunmer captive shackled to the Imperials looked familiar to Kalik from his time in Morrowind.... and he recognized him as Tythis Andromo a House Telvanni slave-owner and banker from Vvardenfell. During a rough interrogation to Tythis, Ras Kalik learnt why the bandits accosted him. The racist Dunmer was providing slaves as soldiers for the Three Banner War. The bandits were trying to negotiate a lucrative ransom for Andromo and the Imperials.... Kalik did not need any of this gold and he could never set Tythis free as he did with the two Imperial soldiers. His past involvement with slavery and war crimes, made Kalik's blood boil. He chose not to execute Tythis, as he figured the worse punishment for this former rich and opulent slave owner, is to now be an imprisoned servant for Ras Kalik and the tribe.

    Herzog Zwei the Genesis a reknown Imperial/Akavirri battle-mage. His roots going back to Akavir through his mother’s bloodline. (His mother is descended from the Akaviri, through Versidue-Shae, and his Imperial father met her in Hakoshae, while traveling) Herzog earned the nickname "the Genesis" from his father as a child, as he was his mother's first born child, and last, as she tragically died in child-birth.

    Herzog was seeking to purchase an artifact from Cinan Tharn, before their capture and was meeting Tyrus while in Rimmen, who introduced him to Cinan. This artifact being the Ayelid artifact; the sword Sinweaver. After their rescue and the exchange of gold to Cinan for the sword he decided to slip away before Ras Kalik could question who he was, and why the Akavir descendant really wanted that sword. Herzog was headed to Nagastani — An Ayleid ruin in eastern Cyrodiil. He had read in scrolls that the Sword would give him magical powers to meet his mothers spirit, if he performed an Ayleid ritual at an old shrine hidden there. Equipped with the artifact sword, he was off to start his own adventure but Ras Kalik, did indeed notice the sword however and instead sent a letter to Jux Blackheart (whom also was interested in Ayleid treasures), to attempt to find Herzog and acquire the sword. (*Azani Blackheart in Elder Scroll's Oblivion is Jux's descendant some 747 years later)

    And so the Redguard, Imperial and Akaviri men parted ways ... While Ras Kalik went off to Elsweyr to encounter the latest threat to Tamriel, with Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan - - DRAGONS!! Little did Ras Kalik know a few people were awaiting him in Senchal besides Sai. A necromancer survived his attack on the Withered Hand, while in Alik'r. The necromancer known as Auriek Siet'ka is also following him to the land of the Khajiits and Cacique the Sage of Ius a Shaman mystic who has become attuned spiritually with Tu'whacca (a Redguard God) and Ius (the Animal God), after being burned severely by the escaped dragons in Elsywer, is awaiting his arrival also. Aurik is a soldier of the Daggerfall Covenant that was introduced to necromancy while in the military, even though this magicka art is not spoken of openly by most of the Military leaders. He came to Alik'r and worked with the Withered Hand before Ras Kalik intervened on their plans. After the defeat of the Withered Hand, he aligned with the Worm Cult, and is constantly adapting and perfecting his necromantic arts.

    After his journey to Rimmen, Kalik heads south to Senchal, in the southern regions of Elyswer. This new adventure will also put him on a path to meet a strange Redguard man. The stranger which was infected with an untreated Peyrite disease and also was the exiled from the Order of the New Moon cult, due to his sickness. He originally joined the cult to worship Laatvulon, the green dragon, mistakenly thinking it was the Daedric prince Peyrite. This confused and suffering cultist is known as Tsar al-Bomba and he is on a path to spread the disease. He was originally infected in Orccrest while recruiting members there. Can Ras Kalik and the shaman Cacique cure this poor soul, only time will tell. Little does Tsar al-Bomba know, that his infection is tied to Vampirism, and eventually the desire for blood will take over his mind. Senchal also offers Kalik his latest love interest... Aeliah. Whom he fondly led thru battles with the Dragonguard.

    After the trek thru the heat, tropical and desert climate of Northern and Southern Elyswer, Ras Kalik heads north to the cold mountain range of Skyrim. His companion friend Lyris beckons for him with a letter sent by crow...

    Movárth Piquine - a former vampire hunter (now infected), within the Fighter's Guild (and a secretive necromancer) was in Skyrim working with the Morthaal Guard. On a patrol mission he was caught in Frewien's ice curse outside of Morthaal with the frozen undead. Movárth's vampiric infection kept him from becoming an undead minion to the curse. He was able to use necromantic ice-magic to encase himself safely until he was freed with Freiwen, when the Vestige Ras Kalik broke the curse.

    Uri Ice-Heart - brother of Urfon Ice-Heart. The twin sons of Atli and Oljourn Ice-Heart. The Ice-Heart family are originally from Markarth but now reside on the Jerall Mountain range near Cyrodiil, with their younger sister Araki. The twins had joined the Winterborn Reachmen while living in Markarth. Urfon pushed west to Orsinium with the Winterborn Clan, leaving his family behind. Uri stayed behind with his parents and sister to live in the family cabin for safety, avoiding the Vampire plague infiltrating the Reach. After news reaches him and he hears of Urfon's death... Uri leaves and heads home and is seeking vengeance. Meanwhile, his sister has also moved on to Windhelm to join the Fighter's guild. He will visit his sister, once before going to seek vengeance and she will craft him armor mixed with ice, called Stalhrim armor. Uri fearing death, after his brother's passing, falls victim to the convincing talk of Movárth at a Nordic tavern, and will also becomes a vampire.

    {time moves forward through the hour-glass}
    PS5/NA - Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar - Daggerfall Covenant • 1550+ Champion
    Returning player - 2017-2022, back in 25'
  • SirCritical
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    The only Death Knight I knew was living on Krynn...
  • Zordrage
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    ArchMikem wrote: »
    Zordrage wrote: »
    Basically Stamina Build Necromancer....

    Stammancer !!!!

    With many Magica class abilities with Stamina morphs....

    omg make it happen !!!!

    Knowing the how the other classes are, a Necromancer would have 98% Magic skills with only like, 2 Stam morphs. *coughCOUGHDragonknightCOUGHSorcerercough*

    Warden wants a Word with you..... it has one of the best Magica to stamina morphs....

    il hope Necro will get something similar or EVEN MORE good magica to stamina morphs...
    so we can use our cool Dark Class Abilities while using a 2h sword :P and im not talking about Summons and Buffs only here....
    Edited by Zordrage on December 28, 2017 4:43PM
  • Xundiin
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    Xundiin wrote: »
    Not really, what makes an Aedra and Daedra is not their alignment. It's one group sacrificed their power tomake Nirn while the other refused.
    So, what do you think "holy" means then?
    Good alignment?
    Not so... it is more a matter of perception I would say.

    The aedra sacrificed their power to create the world of nirn.
    They -created- it.
    That pretty much makes them the "gods" (Well, or at least "divines" ;) ) of nirn... and those on the other side the "demons" by default. So the people -living- in the world they created might call them "holy", and all that took the other side "unholy", except those dirty heretic cultists who worshop the daedra for their own reasons and call them "holy" and... actually I am not sure what cultists would call unholy... ;) but most templars would agree they need to be purged by sword and fire! ;)

    Now, look at the magic itself... we have one "Aedric Spear" line, all full of purifying light and such, and one "Daedric Summoning" line, all full of demon calling and dark magics... of course, one could argue those being mere cosmetics, but then... is that not always the case? Especially since "holy" and "unholy" often is entirely dependent on the point of view?

    I say, a mere difference in fluff does not change the nature something is derived from... and while you are quite right that is it not -exactly- "holy & unholy" it -IS- the elder scrolls version of the same basic concept...
    Xundiin wrote: »
    Meridia and Azura aren't technically evil, they are more neutral if anything. And if you go off lore, the "good" daedra are Maphala, Boethiah, and Azura.
    True enough. And some of the divines are also not quite "good" themselves, and more like neutral... heck, take the "good religion" of any time in history and you will find them being at best shades of grey... and loudly proclaiming the other religions "bad" just because they are not of their faith.
    But again, everyone chooses their own heaven. And their own hell.
    What is holy to some is heathen to others, what is despised as unholy by some is worthy of worship to others.

    That the elder scrolls go for more grey areas then the black/white alignment split always made them one of my favorites anyhow... ;)
    Xundiin wrote: »
    So, yeah, neither is holy magick vs unholy. Also, if you look back into lore. Healing spells where also in the same school as diseases. Because there isn't really a "holy" school of magic, it's life magic both the giving and taking.
    Look forward in the lore, you mean? ;)
    In ESO, before the schools of magic were established, it seems that is not the case yet... here we have several healing effect spells scattered all over the place, from nightblades lifesteal to the more clasical "cleric healing" restoring light, from green dragon blood to the wardens plant-based healing effects, from vigor to a sorcerors dark deals...

    But the general "archetype" of "holy" magic is pretty well domain of the ESO templar... healing and purifying and golden light, with some light-spears thrown in (likely because light-swords are a different franchise).
    And the general archetype portraced by daedric influences in magic... summonings, dark deals, curses and such... are more often that of daemons. Some in the ancient greek sense of the world, some in the more recent christianity-influenced sense.

    So in the end... Aedra are the next best thing to "holy" and Deadra the next best equivalent to "unholy" in the elder scrolls lore, even if the lore is not -quite- that "black and white". ;)

    Sorry, but no. You are trying to push aside established lore of games that came out prior to ESO as being irrelivent then pushing in ESO's set up as being current lore. All the spells you mentioned fall into either restoration magicks or just don't exist till ESO. Prime example is Aedric Spear line. Just because it has a flashy gold icon doesn't make it a holy spell. Just because funnel health doesn't have a gold icon does it make it an unholy spell.

    Daedra can create as well.... so if that's what you are basing your "holy divine" vs "demons" on it's very much skewed in the wrong direction. TES lore mechanics are never black and white. What makes a spell holy or unholy isn't the school, or the source of the spell, it's in how it is used. Also, if you want to get down to it. Magic doesn't even come from the "divines" it comes from Aetherius. So it can't have a "holy" or "unholy" origin.

    Quoted from UESP:

    Magic (Magicka in the Ayleid Language)[1] is the general term used for the focusing of raw energy into various properties and for various purposes. This raw energy, often referred to as magicka, flows from Aetherius into Mundus by way of the sun and stars, and from it the Mundus was created.[2][3] Magicka comprises every spirit, it is the energy of all living things and can be harnessed in a variety of ways. Despite thousands of years of study, there is an enormous amount of speculation about how magic is generated, how it might be used by Aedra and Daedra, and how it might flow between living things.

    Magnus was the god who designed Mundus, the mortal realm, during its creation. After it was completed, however, he ordered the project terminated, and left for Aetherius at great cost. In doing so, he tore a hole in the veil of Oblivion through which the magicka of Aetherius flows into the world.[5][6] The great rift he left behind, the sun, is itself known as Magnus.[7] Soon, other et'Ada who agreed with Magnus followed his lead, leaving smaller holes which are the stars, through which magicka also flows. This is why the stars under which a person is born have such a great influence on that person's fortunes and fate, and why many materials which fall from the heavens have great magical properties.

    So with that, again. There is no such thing as "holy" or "unholy" magic. There is only that which is agreed upon being immoral and illegal, like Necromancy. Which is also a grey area since it's not outlawed by all. Mainly the Imperial College of Magic.
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  • TheShadowScout
    TheShadowScout
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    The only Death Knight I knew was living on Krynn...
    And Lord Soth is still the prime measure for the whole concept!
    lordsoth_product_001.jpg
    ;)
    Xundiin wrote: »
    Sorry, but no. You are trying to push aside established lore of games that came out prior to ESO as being irrelivent then pushing in ESO's set up as being current lore. All the spells you mentioned fall into either restoration magicks or just don't exist till ESO.
    You -are- aware that the other TES games are set eight hundred years and more -after- ESO?
    So why are you talking about "schools of magic" that are as of this time period just an idea the people of the mages guild are just now developing as if they were the gold standard throughout all times?

    Lore needs to be seen in the context it is set.

    Since the developers of ESO clearly did not use the "schools of magic" system found in all other TES games... that system does not really exist in this time period. There is a mages guild book in-world I dimly recall of discussing how it would be a good thing if such a system was established... so one can expect that to happen in coming centuries. (but since ZOS certainly wouldn't go and change their whole game... it obviosuly is not something we can use for arguments in this time period)
    Xundiin wrote: »
    Prime example is Aedric Spear line. Just because it has a flashy gold icon doesn't make it a holy spell. Just because funnel health doesn't have a gold icon does it make it an unholy spell.
    No. But the "aedric" part of it is a pretty strong giveaway. Aedra. You know them, right? Also generally known as "The Divines", at least the eight big ones of them? You don't see any indication of them being the tamriel-ic equivalewnt of "holy"? How about all those shrines and temples in their name? Still nothing? How about you play the bossfight against the very much unholy-ish Molag Bal, and tell us just who lends you that bit of golden power that lets you make it?
    Xundiin wrote: »
    Daedra can create as well.... so if that's what you are basing your "holy divine" vs "demons" on it's very much skewed in the wrong direction.
    But they did -not- create -Nirn-, did they now?
    I am not basing it on power of creation, I am basing it on point of view. As you might have noticed... "what is holy to some is unholy to others." People generally consider "their" creator gods to be "holy" and anyone elses creator gods to be "unholy", do they not?
    Thus...
    ...as the aedra created nirn...
    ...it seems logical they are the closest equivalent to "holy" in the eyes of the mortals of nirn, yes? ;)
    Xundiin wrote: »
    TES lore mechanics are never black and white.
    Agreed. I made that point as well. One of the things I do like about TES lore. :)
    Xundiin wrote: »
    What makes a spell holy or unholy isn't the school, or the source of the spell, it's in how it is used. Also, if you want to get down to it. Magic doesn't even come from the "divines" it comes from Aetherius. So it can't have a "holy" or "unholy" origin.
    That is entirely dependant on your point of view.
    Some spells are good or bad depending on how they are used.
    Others are more on the good side, from a general point of view. Like healing spells.
    Others still are more on the bad side from a general point of view. Necromancy spells for example.
    Some spells will be considered "holy" by the dominant religion because they match the "flavor" of their gods (not neccessarily coming from them tho)
    And other spells will be considered "unholy" because it matches the "flavor" of the dominant religions antagonists.

    Just likem "golden light" in the christianity-influenced world is assiciated with holyness, angels, and divine power, while smoking reddish-black "hellfire" would be immidiately associated with unholyness, demons and satan, right? Just like "nature" flavored powers often are associated with "good" (Poison Ivy nonwithstanding) and "unnatural" powers dealing with death and decay are considered "bad" (and if you look into what the nature-powered druids had -really- been up to, you will notice they are not exactly always on the good side... full marks to ESO for portraying that in the wyress society, nature can be green and flowery, but also red in tooth and claw after all)

    As I keep pointing out, different groups will have different viewpoints as to what is "holy" or "unholy". Just like everywhere... a catholic will see some things as holy, and others as unholy, a satanist will have some widely different opinions about the very same things, yes? But generally people in the western world will be more inclined to agree with the catholic viewpoint, simply because it has been the dominant religion here for fifteen hundred years or so and left its mark in societies memes...
    Xundiin wrote: »
    So with that, again. There is no such thing as "holy" or "unholy" magic. There is only that which is agreed upon being immoral and illegal, like Necromancy. Which is also a grey area since it's not outlawed by all. Mainly the Imperial College of Magic.
    Again I ask... what do you think "holy" and "unholy" IS???
    Those simply ARE what is considered "morally good" and "morally bad", usually through association to divine figures representing moral virtues and their antagonists representing moral failings.
    People call their "morally desired" standards and whatever they thought up to represent them "holy" and their "morally despicable" standards and whatever they dreamed up to represent them "unholy", and it is entirely up to the flavor of the religion in question as to what this is. That does not change when the dieties and demons are actually real... the question of if their supernatural power is "holy" or "unholy" is still decided in peoples minds. And as i mentioned, the people generally are inclined to see those who gave them live a bit more favorably then the ones who opposed the whole idea.

    A mephala cultist might consider spiders "holy", anyone else might consider them annoyances at best. And akatosh priest might consider dragons to be "holy", an skyrim-era dragonborn adventurer might have different ideas. Just like there are human "cults" which have strange ideas about what is holy or not.

    What I am saying is, aedra and daedra are the tamriel-ic -equivalents- of "holy" and "unholy"... not because of some cosmic decree, but because that is how they are considered by the majority of the mortals. And I further state, that -every- "holy" and "unholy" distinction in realistic-ish fantasy worlds without this black-and-white cosmic alignment fiat (cough, middle earth; D&D, cough) is entirely dependent on the peoples point of view.
  • notimetocare
    notimetocare
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    So someone mentioned "Death Knight"
    ...but there are no "death knights" in tamriel.
    The original concept after all was a knight who had been cursed by the gods for breaking their vows... and tamriels gods are not -that- narrow minded about such things, while neither are the knightly orders that strict to give rise to such legends.

    The general concept of a heavily armored undead warrior is still valid enough of course. After all, originally the "Death Knight" was the AD&D warrior equivalent to the mage-ish Lich as high-power undead, so while applying an "undead" template to a ESO magica character/NPC would result in a lich, applying the same template on a warrior might yield something similar to the classic death knight... which in tamriel, could happen in a great many ways. Ayleid magics, worm cult experiments, daedric deals or even merely a careless worded wish near one of clavicus viles shrines... any undead in heavy armor with elite level powers might fill the requirements.
    Blood magic, holy magic, and unholy magic are not concepts in TES
    You sure about this?
    Aedric magic?
    Daedric magic?
    That's holy and unholy right there... and the siphoning line does have a stronmg "blood magic" touch, as do some reachmen rituals...
    Where you -are- correct is that none of those are exclusively tied to any "death knight" legends in TES lore.

    That is applying the concepts of our world to TES. Aedra and daedra are not holy vs unholy. Its a bit arguable if their magic is anything different than ours, but if it is it is not something we can actually use or 'call on' because we are not aedra or daedra.

    Siphoning is restoration magic. See Absorb skills in restoration trees both in game and lore text.
  • Tapio75
    Tapio75
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    I shall play Warcraft if im to pay Deathknight.. Or a D&D adventure.

    For TES, a spellsword using necromanctic school of magicka to aid his/her cause of evilness, sure.. But it would not be deathknight and it would feel totally wrong to have Deathknights in ESO. Closest thing to original Warcraft concept of deathknight being a sort of lich would be a wizard type turned to lich in proper TES manner, maybe a skill line like WW and Vampire but restricted to magicka as a resource.
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  • Vizier
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    Since the current ESO classes are more of a mix of multiple classes in TES I don't think we need another "Knight." Much rather see something like a Monk or Bard class.
  • Ragnarock41
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    ArchMikem wrote: »
    Zordrage wrote: »
    Basically Stamina Build Necromancer....

    Stammancer !!!!

    With many Magica class abilities with Stamina morphs....

    omg make it happen !!!!

    Knowing the how the other classes are, a Necromancer would have 98% Magic skills with only like, 2 Stam morphs.

    But why would anyone play such a class.... wait a second.. This feels familiar...
  • imredneckson
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    ArchMikem wrote: »
    Zordrage wrote: »
    Basically Stamina Build Necromancer....

    Stammancer !!!!

    With many Magica class abilities with Stamina morphs....

    omg make it happen !!!!

    Knowing the how the other classes are, a Necromancer would have 98% Magic skills with only like, 2 Stam morphs. *coughCOUGHDragonknightCOUGHSorcerercough*

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    Edited by imredneckson on December 29, 2017 8:55AM
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  • Ermiq
    Ermiq
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    I personally don't even know what's the worst, Dwemer motorcycle or playable necromancer/walking-dead-knight.
    But I know that both are kind of deadline. When ESO reach that line I probably quit.
    One of the two of us definitely has gone mad. It only remains to define whether this one is the whole world or just me.

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  • Nemesis7884
    Nemesis7884
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    i think you focus to much on what death knights are in other games - woodelfes or dwarves in elder scrolls are also not what they are in other games.... death knight can simply mean a necromancer in heavy armor
    Not quite.
    The general concept of "death knight" usualkly ends up with a strong emphasis on melee combat skills, unlike the "heavy armor necromancer". Since "necromancer" kinda implies a magica claracter...

    Like I mentioned, they are the stamina equivalent to the magica lich as "high danger undead". Usually with some hefty "curses" magic attacks thrown in for good measure. And an undead steed. And more often then not, a legion of undead in their wake.

    I suppode in ESO, the closest lorewise equivalent might be a fighty stamina dragon priest (as opposed to the usually more magically inclined ones we get) as "bossfight" for a draugr mound... maybe if they train a bit... ;)

    again i think you are way to narrow - just make some magic melee focused, magicka drain life is from a distance and stamina is up close and personal

    before eso you also didn't find any info about "dragon knights"
  • Aisle9
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    Gothrock wrote: »
    Imo the only way to add "Death knight" is to combine it with necromancer, because there are no classes in ESO which are definetely "heavy armored knights". So death knight needs at least one light armor oriented skill line, but we already have dark magic sorcerer with debufs and blood magic caster nightblade with drain.
    So the only concept i can imagine would be a copypaste from WOW:
    1. Tanking skill line with self healing, maybe not blood magic healing (cause we have mNB) but some unholy healing
    2. Some melee damage skill line, maybe some DOTs with magic/disease morphs
    3. Necromancy / conjuring skill line

    Blood magic, holy magic, and unholy magic are not concepts in TES

    Nightblades have a Siphoning tree dedicated to blood (soul/life force) magic, with the recent introduction of a healing spell that actually feeds on the caster's health.

    Read the descriptions of the abilities in Templar's Restoring Light skill tree: "Channel the grace of the gods, healing you and nearby allies for [x] Health every 1 second for 4 seconds", "Focus your spiritual devotion, healing yourself and nearby allies for [x] Health.", "Exalt in the sacred light of the Aedra, cleansing up to 2 harmful effects from yourself immediately and healing you and nearby allies for [x] every 2 seconds for 12 seconds."

    Plus, necromancy is a thing... just saying

    That said, new class, please no... Last time they tried they made something that is just meh in PvE, but absolute cancer in PvP... please no.

    Edited by Aisle9 on December 29, 2017 10:18AM
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  • TheShadowScout
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    i think you focus to much on what death knights are in other games - woodelfes or dwarves in elder scrolls are also not what they are in other games.... death knight can simply mean a necromancer in heavy armor
    Not quite.
    The general concept of "death knight" usualkly ends up with a strong emphasis on melee combat skills, unlike the "heavy armor necromancer". Since "necromancer" kinda implies a magica claracter...

    Like I mentioned, they are the stamina equivalent to the magica lich as "high danger undead". Usually with some hefty "curses" magic attacks thrown in for good measure. And an undead steed. And more often then not, a legion of undead in their wake.

    I suppode in ESO, the closest lorewise equivalent might be a fighty stamina dragon priest (as opposed to the usually more magically inclined ones we get) as "bossfight" for a draugr mound... maybe if they train a bit... ;)

    again i think you are way to narrow - just make some magic melee focused, magicka drain life is from a distance and stamina is up close and personal
    ...the "Death knight" archetype -is- quite narrow.

    It originally was derived from the "Black Knight" archetype of legend - meaning, a honorable and pruissant knight (generally a class considered to be all strength at arms and heavy armor, horseback charges and deeds of valor, with the occasional blocking of passageways) who betrayed his knightly vows in some dastardly way and was expelled from the knightly orders, reviled by his peers, and more or less tormented by his loss of status and honorable reputation, and seeking solace or at least distraction (sometimes revenge against whoever they deem responsible for their downfall)in evil deeds instead.

    The death knight upped the stakes for fantasy stories with divine or demonic interference, cursing the fallen knight with becoming an unliving monstrosity as pennance as well. (most death knights would be somewhat suicidal if they were not already... well... dead. And tend to vet that frustration on hapless adventurer groups...)
    Clearly this only works in settings where straight-laced gods care deeply about people making vows in their name. Settings where good and evil are clearly divided by "cosmic fiat"... so, not exactly applicable for the ender scrolls where its more like shades of grey all around.

    So, no, a nightblade saptank isn't a deathknight. More like... I dunno, an armored blood mage or something? Vampire knight perhaps? (if you add vampirism). It would mesh well, but not be a death knight...

    The main thing about "Death Knight" in the original sense is the remnants of a fallen -knight-. Thus all the classic knightly skills at arms and ways of doing battle, often also some vestige of knightly honor, but all twisted into evil and darkness. With undead and "ooo, scary curses" as cherry on top.
    And the knightly stuff practically -screams- "Stamina build!!!"

    If we had an "general undead" template in addition to werewolf anf vampire, it might make a "lich" for a magica character, and a "death knight" for stamina characters. Well, or as close as you can get in TES lore. Add some backstory about a fallen paladin and dark gods (well, daedric princes if we are talking ESO), and its possibly to build up the lore for one. But generally, in ESO it would just be yet another undead in heavy armor, nothing too special. There are some of those in the game, just look for crypt type dungeons with some high power unded "cursed lord" boss... but that is basically as close as things get to the archetype in TES lore, no further.
  • nagual2013rwb17_ESO
    nagual2013rwb17_ESO
    Soul Shriven
    You mean a build like this ..2 handed nightblade in full plate

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBfqDYCL0sQ

    Back then i was going for that EQ shadowknight build

    Just started playing again after years of not playing so going to try revive it if its even possible anymore. I guess being a vampire if a must for that life tap ability they have
  • Zordrage
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    Eremith wrote: »
    I personally don't even know what's the worst, Dwemer motorcycle or playable necromancer/walking-dead-knight.
    But I know that both are kind of deadline. When ESO reach that line I probably quit.

    i understand the motorcycle...

    but necro ? Necro actually makes 100% sense as a playable Class both Lore and gameplay and content wise....
    you need to stop the Hate on Sensible things its not healthy.
  • Zordrage
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    Aisle9 wrote: »
    Gothrock wrote: »
    Imo the only way to add "Death knight" is to combine it with necromancer, because there are no classes in ESO which are definetely "heavy armored knights". So death knight needs at least one light armor oriented skill line, but we already have dark magic sorcerer with debufs and blood magic caster nightblade with drain.
    So the only concept i can imagine would be a copypaste from WOW:
    1. Tanking skill line with self healing, maybe not blood magic healing (cause we have mNB) but some unholy healing
    2. Some melee damage skill line, maybe some DOTs with magic/disease morphs
    3. Necromancy / conjuring skill line

    Blood magic, holy magic, and unholy magic are not concepts in TES

    Nightblades have a Siphoning tree dedicated to blood (soul/life force) magic, with the recent introduction of a healing spell that actually feeds on the caster's health.

    Read the descriptions of the abilities in Templar's Restoring Light skill tree: "Channel the grace of the gods, healing you and nearby allies for [x] Health every 1 second for 4 seconds", "Focus your spiritual devotion, healing yourself and nearby allies for [x] Health.", "Exalt in the sacred light of the Aedra, cleansing up to 2 harmful effects from yourself immediately and healing you and nearby allies for [x] every 2 seconds for 12 seconds."

    Plus, necromancy is a thing... just saying

    That said, new class, please no... Last time they tried they made something that is just meh in PvE, but absolute cancer in PvP... please no.

    just because the class wasnt the best as their FIRST try inventing a new class into the game they suddenly need to stop ALL future class development ? LOL

    Heres a secret in EVERY single mmo when a new class is implemented 80% of the times is Broken in someway.. and usualy takes from a few months to entire year or Years before devs finnaly find a good place for it with changes an buffs and nerfs and sometimes total reworks of skills....
  • notimetocare
    notimetocare
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    Aisle9 wrote: »
    Gothrock wrote: »
    Imo the only way to add "Death knight" is to combine it with necromancer, because there are no classes in ESO which are definetely "heavy armored knights". So death knight needs at least one light armor oriented skill line, but we already have dark magic sorcerer with debufs and blood magic caster nightblade with drain.
    So the only concept i can imagine would be a copypaste from WOW:
    1. Tanking skill line with self healing, maybe not blood magic healing (cause we have mNB) but some unholy healing
    2. Some melee damage skill line, maybe some DOTs with magic/disease morphs
    3. Necromancy / conjuring skill line

    Blood magic, holy magic, and unholy magic are not concepts in TES

    Nightblades have a Siphoning tree dedicated to blood (soul/life force) magic, with the recent introduction of a healing spell that actually feeds on the caster's health.

    Read the descriptions of the abilities in Templar's Restoring Light skill tree: "Channel the grace of the gods, healing you and nearby allies for [x] Health every 1 second for 4 seconds", "Focus your spiritual devotion, healing yourself and nearby allies for [x] Health.", "Exalt in the sacred light of the Aedra, cleansing up to 2 harmful effects from yourself immediately and healing you and nearby allies for [x] every 2 seconds for 12 seconds."

    Plus, necromancy is a thing... just saying

    That said, new class, please no... Last time they tried they made something that is just meh in PvE, but absolute cancer in PvP... please no.

    Siphon is restoration. So is templar skill. ZoS has god awful, lore inappropriate tooltips. Bethesda lore > ZoS
  • Aisle9
    Aisle9
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    Zordrage wrote: »
    just because the class wasnt the best as their FIRST try inventing a new class into the game they suddenly need to stop ALL future class development ?

    Yes, that's my opinion. There aren't a few kinks to iron with the Warden, the class is imbalanced, and it still is after ... how long since Morrowind was released, now ?

    Aisle9 wrote: »
    Gothrock wrote: »
    Imo the only way to add "Death knight" is to combine it with necromancer, because there are no classes in ESO which are definetely "heavy armored knights". So death knight needs at least one light armor oriented skill line, but we already have dark magic sorcerer with debufs and blood magic caster nightblade with drain.
    So the only concept i can imagine would be a copypaste from WOW:
    1. Tanking skill line with self healing, maybe not blood magic healing (cause we have mNB) but some unholy healing
    2. Some melee damage skill line, maybe some DOTs with magic/disease morphs
    3. Necromancy / conjuring skill line

    Blood magic, holy magic, and unholy magic are not concepts in TES

    Nightblades have a Siphoning tree dedicated to blood (soul/life force) magic, with the recent introduction of a healing spell that actually feeds on the caster's health.

    Read the descriptions of the abilities in Templar's Restoring Light skill tree: "Channel the grace of the gods, healing you and nearby allies for [x] Health every 1 second for 4 seconds", "Focus your spiritual devotion, healing yourself and nearby allies for [x] Health.", "Exalt in the sacred light of the Aedra, cleansing up to 2 harmful effects from yourself immediately and healing you and nearby allies for [x] every 2 seconds for 12 seconds."

    Plus, necromancy is a thing... just saying

    That said, new class, please no... Last time they tried they made something that is just meh in PvE, but absolute cancer in PvP... please no.

    Siphon is restoration. So is templar skill. ZoS has god awful, lore inappropriate tooltips. Bethesda lore > ZoS

    I agree, but TESO lore is canon in the TES universe, so the point is moot.

    Edited by Aisle9 on December 29, 2017 12:57PM
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