We need overland HARDMODE

AlienatedGoat · December 2017

Magdalina wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Craglorn was such zone. And to everyone bringing up the "look how unpopular it was" argument...do you really think it was because of the difficulty?

No, it was the imposed grouping, combined with a game where very few players are operating at level cap. Now, to be fair, it's possible that with One Tamriel, the Craglorn population would have come back, as anyone could get in there. But, when it was V11-14? Yeah, no, it was in part unpopular because no one could get there, and if you did, you couldn't do anything without three buddies. (Whcih, yes, I know, I 2-manned a lot of Craglorn content back in the day, but the concept still holds.)

You need full ELEVEN people to do anything in Trials, yet somehow this content is far from dead(in fact it just got a new Trial just last DLC). How can you possibly keep saying "imposed grouping" kills content with that in mind?

Sort of. Most good trials guilds can do a normal Trial with 4-6 people, and a vet Trial with 8 people.

That just further underscores the point though. Being in groups is far from restrictive.

starkerealm · December 2017

Magdalina wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Craglorn was such zone. And to everyone bringing up the "look how unpopular it was" argument...do you really think it was because of the difficulty?

No, it was the imposed grouping, combined with a game where very few players are operating at level cap. Now, to be fair, it's possible that with One Tamriel, the Craglorn population would have come back, as anyone could get in there. But, when it was V11-14? Yeah, no, it was in part unpopular because no one could get there, and if you did, you couldn't do anything without three buddies. (Whcih, yes, I know, I 2-manned a lot of Craglorn content back in the day, but the concept still holds.)

You need full ELEVEN people to do anything in Trials, yet somehow this content is far from dead(in fact it just got a new Trial just last DLC). How can you possibly keep saying "imposed grouping" kills content with that in mind?

The difference is that Trials and Dungeons are chunks of discrete content. You get a group together to run a specific segment of content and then you're done.

Craglorn is a full zone. You need to wander out, complete quests, find delves, all the other things you'd usually do on your own, but you needed a four man team to run it. More catastrophically, originally you needed three other players who were in the exact same point of progression. So if you wanted to run a quest, you needed to find three other players on that quest to run it with you. If one of your guild members was having issues and you'd already run that segment of the storyline, you could not help them.

So, realistically, you needed to either pug through each quest, or you'd need to get a group of friends, and progress through each quest together. That's a much higher bar for entry than simply running a dungeon.

And before you suggest, "just level an alt to 50," we're talking about before the Champion system, where you needed to grind all the way to V10 or V11, before you could start tackling Craglorn. That was a lot more work than just getting to 50 now.

[Deleted User] · December 2017

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Doctordarkspawn · December 2017

DosPanchos wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Let's not put words in one another's mouths. Most of us who think the overland content is too easy aren't asking for ESO: Dark Souls Unlimited. What we're asking for is that our choices be made to matter in overland content. Because right now, it doesn't matter what gear I wear, how I allocate my CP, what abilities I slot or which morphs I select -- nothing in this game's quest content is going to kill me and nothing is going to be difficult to kill. What this means is that when it comes to combat, ESO is an RPG in which your choices are insignificant. To many of us, that's greatly disappointing.

Everyone who says that we should just unequip our gear and unassign champion points in order to be challenged, do you hear what you're saying? You're telling us that the way for us to enjoy an RPG is to refrain from participating in that RPG's system of character progression. That is not how good game design works, friends.

We're not asking for the next DLC to be Bloodborne in Summerset. We're not saying that random mobs in Eastmarch need to be made as difficult as vMA. But for many of us, a significant part of the immersiveness of an RPG is that enemies who are reputed to be threatening -- whether Daedra, cultists, undead, or fabricants -- actually feel like threats to us. Instead, ESO talks up a bunch of villains as frightening and dangerous, when in fact they're nothing of the sort. That's a problem for me not because I'm a "tryhard" or some elite gamer, but because this is an RPG and that's unimmersive. What are TES games
about if not their immersiveness?

For many of us, combat in RPGs is a chance for the character-building choices we've made to be tested. We want combat to be a time when our choices matter, not a time to lazily farm away while letting our minds go on autopilot. With its oversimplified, farming-friendly overland content, ESO is unfortunately much closer to BDO than other TES games. In asking for more difficult overland content, we're not asking for ESO to become more like Dark Souls -- we're asking for it become more like a TES game.

"That's now how good design works friends"

...Well nobody said this game was well designed. In fact, some of us have been screaming it for the past god knows how long, and when we do, we get told to eat ***. So there's your answer.

As for TES games being difficult...heeeeeh. HEEEEEH. Yeah no that arguement dont work very well either. Because the ES series has lazy difficulty or has a very hard to access title lime morrowind.

I advise you just find another game. We have been trying to change the game to the point where we could get the support you want on a design level, but the designers are systematically opposed to lisening to they're audience. And even if we do, it'll change for the overland period, no modes, no anything. Because ZOS, when it does act, likes wide, hamfisted changes that have no nuance to them.

That's why I'm opposing this as strongly as I am. If we get the change, it'll get changed period.

I think this game is pretty well designed, for the most part. It seems my opinion of the game and its designers is much higher than yours. By my lights, it's straightforwardly false that ZOS' solutions are always wide and hamfisted with no nuance. While many of their decisions unfortunately do fit that bill, many do not. The recent proc set nerfs, for instance, were targeted, precise, and careful. ZOS is more than capable of nuance, and are far better at their jobs than jaded players like you give them credit for. Given the enormous number of changes they've made in response to player feedback, I can't imagine how you can say in good faith that they're "systematically opposed" to listening to it. That simply isn't true.

I agree with you that asking for ESO's story content to be made as hard as other TES games is a pretty low bar, at least as compared to games like Dark Souls or even HZD. But that's my point -- Morrowind or Oblivion or Skyrim aren't paragons of difficulty that only people who have gotten the gud can master, but they're still hard enough (at least on higher difficulties) that the character-building choices you make matter. A random bandit chief in Skyrim on Master or even Expert difficulty will kill you much, much faster than any single villain in ESO's quest content is designed to do, and differently built characters (e.g. a sneak archer vs. a spellsword vs. a berseker) will have to approach fights very differently -- in complete contrast to ESO, where virtually any build can light attack their way through almost every solo fight in the game.

I am in fact taking a break from this game, but I care about the topic of this thread because ESO has tremendous potential that the devs aren't allowing to come to fruition for reasons I don't understand.

Okay lemme stop you right there at that first line. That is likely why you think this is still -possible-.

As someone either in this thread, or another ongoing thread about difficulty said, "It's either a sense of progression, or meaningfull difficulty. Pick one." The system cannot support both.

Also, no, the proc set nerfs were not targeted and carefull. All proc sets were nerfed. Reguardless of whether they were well used or not. The sustain changes, in the same manner, targeted sustain, and all forms of it.

ZOS is not capable of nuance, or if they are, they've not demonstraighted it up to this point.

Please be constructive. You sound like a broken record, and what you've been saying is not accurate...

...Please be constructive. Sorry, I dont feel like blindly agreeing. I have a mind of my own, thanks.

And most of what I've been saying in reguard to ZOS has been proven time and again. You can check that yourself.

The entire thread is predicated on one thing: That people believe ZOS can include an -optional- difficulty slider. I dont think they'll go to the effort of doing -optional-. And that's where it all falls apart.

Inhuman003 · December 2017

I agree with you there should be a hard mode but two of them one Master hard mode and the other Overlord hard mode content. We already have veteran hard mode so what's the point of holding back. It would be nice to have an icon with the chapters or with DLCs to choose that option and if is too hard for you-you can always switch back to normal. But the progress only happens is those that used the icon to that chapter or DLC option.

Beardimus · December 2017

I don't get the hate for the OP's idea. The game is too easy by FAR.

I've recently rolled a new toon on a new server. Starting from scratch. You can just burn through everything, it's ridiculous. I was hoping for a challenge again and seeing the content I love from the .

Context, I'm a completionist. It took me 6 months to hit L50 first time round. I did it all on one toon. As a 690cp player everything melts with one button, so i assumed starting again as a L1 from the off it would be hard. And no.

If things were harder and enjoyable, it would mean more bother doing all the guests, in particular if they rewarded you with more. And stopped people preferring to grind their way to boredom and a million CP

mocap · December 2017

Make dungeon difficulty checkbox works in delves/main quest/vanila guilds.

Serjustin19 · December 2017

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Ulfgarde · December 2017

Yeah but it won't happen. It's nice to think such things, but you are not a majority here. Casual quest runners are.

Challenge would be exciting in this case and would help train a lot of new people. Some mechanic-heavy that come later are brick walls like vma or vtrials. Unfortunately the design is not there, nor is the challenge.

Betsararie · December 2017

If you think the game is so easy, why not try PvP? You didn't 'conquer' the game there too, did you?

Integral1900 · December 2017

I think that some of the negativity is less about the concept of diffrent difficulty levels and more a matter of a fear of ZOS potentially using a hammer to crack a walnut. I can’t see any reason to object to some sort of optional difficulty slide, even if in order not to divide the population it would have to basicaly be a nerf player button. But it MUST be optional. In the past ZOS has a habit of clobbering the whole population with these kinds of changes rather than just the players that want it. For example, the on going npc slaughter annoys me enormously but I have to accept that unless I leave the game I love I’m stuck with it. If a difficulty slider is introduced it has to be one with no changes to the current xp/difficulty/loot drops of players who choose not to take part.

Mayrael · December 2017

I agree that some harder content for solo PvE would be nice. This is the reason i spent 80-90% of my time in cyro or IC. I try to do few quests end when I kill mobs with 2 skills it takes like 5 minutes for me to get bored. Few days ago I had soloed ALL world bosses on Vvardenfell. Took me about half an hour, but at least was fun - especialy the one that stuns and heals him self - I died there few times but finaly managed to kill him - Wow! some challange in overland content!
I understand that for begginers some content may be to difficult, thats why we should have separate instances between we can choose, thats all. No sliders or other sheit. Hard and normal instance. Hard with more nodes (or nodes that give more resources) and better rewards - more purple quality and in general more items drops, more gold, more exp but also a lot lot harder. Fun fun fun. You will see for your self when youll get some experience will this normal content please you.

Apherius · December 2017

Serjustin19 wrote: »

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So you are one of those who don't read the first comment before posting ? the title of the second thread is just " ironic "

Betsararie · December 2017

Mayrael wrote: »

I agree that some harder content for solo PvE would be nice. This is the reason i spent 80-90% of my time in cyro or IC. I try to do few quests end when I kill mobs with 2 skills it takes like 5 minutes for me to get bored. Few days ago I had soloed ALL world bosses on Vvardenfell. Took me about half an hour, but at least was fun - especialy the one that stuns and heals him self - I died there few times but finaly managed to kill him - Wow! some challange in overland content!
I understand that for begginers some content may be to difficult, thats why we should have separate instances between we can choose, thats all. No sliders or other sheit. Hard and normal instance. Hard with more nodes (or nodes that give more resources) and better rewards - more purple quality and in general more items drops, more gold, more exp but also a lot lot harder. Fun fun fun. You will see for your self when youll get some experience will this normal content please you.

this is a good idea, this would make the game a lot better, but I doubt it would ever be implemented due to the amount of effort it takes.

Aeorath · December 2017

DosPanchos wrote: »

Can I get an amen?
This content is too good, too detailed, and too potentially entertaining to make it this easy. Please, ZOS, do us all a favor and give your content the justice it deserves by making it HARD again!

Some suggestions:
1. Revamp caldwells quest to make it hard mode for that specific character. It doesn't matter if it's instanced delves just give us some challenging overland!

2. Make new dlc zones that have special challenges and not just the same old warn out easy content. C'mon, just one difficult overland zone. I dare you.

3. Merry Christmas you filthy animals!

First two points: NO.

Last one: Merry Christmas to you too.

Ragnork · December 2017

tplink3r1 wrote: »

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

No.

Go play Dark Souls if you want to be punished. Go play Horizon Zero Dawn on Ultra Hard and come back to ESO. This game isn’t meant for sweaty try hards. Sweaty try hards are a small portion of their audience. You really think they’ll make a stupid ridiculous zone for a small audience? If you want hard don’t use cp, wear awful gear, try to be a hybrid.

I don’t want overland zones to be a chore. I don’t expect a troll to become vSO difficultly. Is that what you’re wanting? Trial adds wondering around?

I’m curious what your idea for this zone is.

"Go play X" is not an argument

It is more valid an argument then others I have had the misfortune to read...

DosPanchos · December 2017

Inhuman003 wrote: »

I agree with you there should be a hard mode but two of them one Master hard mode and the other Overlord hard mode content. We already have veteran hard mode so what's the point of holding back. It would be nice to have an icon with the chapters or with DLCs to choose that option and if is too hard for you-you can always switch back to normal. But the progress only happens is those that used the icon to that chapter or DLC option.

I would freaking love that

Feric51 · December 2017

New overland "hardmode" = Your skill tooltips and health/stam/mag start deteriorating after 12 hours of gameplay and require that character to "sleep" for 6-8 hours real time to return them to normal.

How 'bout dat?

Dr.NRG · December 2017

I miss the good old times when Imperial city or craglorn was actully tough to go through. Now we get these really awsome dlcs but I end up not even playing them because they are to easy;( a great story and beautiful world aint enough, there gotta be at least some kind of challenge to enjoy it.

DosPanchos · December 2017

Feric51 wrote: »

New overland "hardmode" = Your skill tooltips and health/stam/mag start deteriorating after 12 hours of gameplay and require that character to "sleep" for 6-8 hours real time to return them to normal.

How 'bout dat?

Lol, maybe China should look into this policy when they regulate their video games but I don't think that's gonna fly.

People who play 16 hours a day, though it is unhealthy, would throw endless rage fits...

DieAlteHexe · December 2017

Feric51 wrote: »

New overland "hardmode" = Your skill tooltips and health/stam/mag start deteriorating after 12 hours of gameplay and require that character to "sleep" for 6-8 hours real time to return them to normal.

How 'bout dat?

As an option, sure. As something that everyone has to contend with? Absolutely not.

DieAlteHexe · December 2017

DosPanchos wrote: »

Feric51 wrote: »

New overland "hardmode" = Your skill tooltips and health/stam/mag start deteriorating after 12 hours of gameplay and require that character to "sleep" for 6-8 hours real time to return them to normal.

How 'bout dat?

Lol, maybe China should look into this policy when they regulate their video games but I don't think that's gonna fly.

People who play 16 hours a day, though it is unhealthy, would throw endless rage fits...

His suggestion didn't say "per 24 hour period", merely "...after 12 hours of gameplay...".

Either way, no.

Feric51 · December 2017

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

DosPanchos wrote: »

Feric51 wrote: »

New overland "hardmode" = Your skill tooltips and health/stam/mag start deteriorating after 12 hours of gameplay and require that character to "sleep" for 6-8 hours real time to return them to normal.

How 'bout dat?

Lol, maybe China should look into this policy when they regulate their video games but I don't think that's gonna fly.

People who play 16 hours a day, though it is unhealthy, would throw endless rage fits...

His suggestion didn't say "per 24 hour period", merely "...after 12 hours of gameplay...".

Either way, no.

It was a facetious post anyway. Though perhaps not as outlandish as some things that get suggested on these forums.

DieAlteHexe · December 2017

Feric51 wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

DosPanchos wrote: »

Feric51 wrote: »

New overland "hardmode" = Your skill tooltips and health/stam/mag start deteriorating after 12 hours of gameplay and require that character to "sleep" for 6-8 hours real time to return them to normal.

How 'bout dat?

Lol, maybe China should look into this policy when they regulate their video games but I don't think that's gonna fly.

People who play 16 hours a day, though it is unhealthy, would throw endless rage fits...

His suggestion didn't say "per 24 hour period", merely "...after 12 hours of gameplay...".

Either way, no.

It was a facetious post anyway. Though perhaps not as outlandish as some things that get suggested on these forums.

One of the things I have learned over the years is to never assume.

I tend to agree with you but...

Kamatsu · December 2017

Beardimus wrote: »

I don't get the hate for the OP's idea. The game is too easy by FAR.

Thing is the majority of players are solo questor's, who play games to relax and chill and not be challenged by it. I know there's the idea that 'making the game ramp difficulty up will make them learn to play better' - but sadly as has been proven time and time again in many other games (both online and offline), this does not happen. What happens is people keep playing their own way, and if/when the game gets too hard they quit it - they do not look for guides, help, strats, etc... they just drop the game and go play something else. That's the majority of the player base.

The other problem I've seen is the OP talking about having it as a difficulty slider/selection AND having the people who choose hard-mode to still be in the same instance/world as everyone else... and when they attack mob's, those mobs will then scale up to their hard-mode settings for everyone - this would 100% invite huge griefing.

Just imagine a bunch of jerks going around tagging mobs ppl need for quest's while in hard-mode. Suddenly ppl just questing in normal mode will find themselves facing hard-mode mobs instead. And yes, while the majority of ppl who would use the hard-mode would not do this... sadly there are enough jerks out there who would do exactly this.

So what it comes down to - the only way to do a "hard-mode" would be to separate those who are doing hard & normal mode, thus avoiding issue's of griefing or how to scale mobs depending on who's fighting them. Those who play normally will face things as they are now, while those who want harder fights and challenges can get them.

I'm not personally interested in doing a hard mode for overland, but I would 100% support a separate instanced hard-mode for those who want the challenge, but sadly I don't see it ever happening.

Why? Simple matter of economics - the cost to make the separate instance for hard-mode would not generate the RoI that spending that money on more zones, overland content, vet trials, vet dungeons, etc. To make it they would have to either pull dev's from existing projects... thus making those other projects take longer, or they'd have to hire even more people to develop the hard-mode while not effecting the rate-of-development of the other content.

And fact is, no matter how much it comes up on the forums and/or reddit, those seeking hard/challenging content are a minority of players... and since ZOS has shown they are as profit driven as EA, Activision, Take-Two, etc... I'd seriously doubt that they would invest in a lesser revenue generating project..

Morgha_Kul · December 2017

My reaction to this is typically to ask what gear you're using.

I mean, if you've twinked out your character so he's got the most ultra-rare super powerful gear, and made his as cost efficient and power efficient as humanly possible, then of COURSE the game will seem easy. The solution is therefore to use less efficient gear and skills.

Remember, not everyone will be ultra-mega-equipped or playing with the most efficient builds conceivable. If the game is adjusted to be difficult for those who ARE so equipped, then it will be unplayable to those who are not.

In other words, if you want it to be harder, there are ways you can do that for yourself.

Seri · December 2017

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

My reaction to this is typically to ask what gear you're using.

I mean, if you've twinked out your character so he's got the most ultra-rare super powerful gear, and made his as cost efficient and power efficient as humanly possible, then of COURSE the game will seem easy. The solution is therefore to use less efficient gear and skills.

Remember, not everyone will be ultra-mega-equipped or playing with the most efficient builds conceivable. If the game is adjusted to be difficult for those who ARE so equipped, then it will be unplayable to those who are not.

In other words, if you want it to be harder, there are ways you can do that for yourself.

And if I'm wearing worm cult and SPC, and using healer CP (not DPS cp)? :P

Kamatsu wrote: »

So what it comes down to - the only way to do a "hard-mode" would be to separate those who are doing hard & normal mode, thus avoiding issue's of griefing or how to scale mobs depending on who's fighting them. Those who play normally will face things as they are now, while those who want harder fights and challenges can get them.

Or if there was a self debuff (like if your self-toggle was a scaled up version of minor maim and minor fracture/breach being applied to the player). Personally I'm still liking the idea someone mentioned of leaving the 'above ground' overworld as it is while having a scaled version for story instances (those that are inherently solo anyway) in the same way there is vet vs normal group dungeons.

Seri · December 2017

Phage wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Craglorn was such zone. And to everyone bringing up the "look how unpopular it was" argument...do you really think it was because of the difficulty?

No, it was the imposed grouping, combined with a game where very few players are operating at level cap. Now, to be fair, it's possible that with One Tamriel, the Craglorn population would have come back, as anyone could get in there. But, when it was V11-14? Yeah, no, it was in part unpopular because no one could get there, and if you did, you couldn't do anything without three buddies. (Whcih, yes, I know, I 2-manned a lot of Craglorn content back in the day, but the concept still holds.)

You need full ELEVEN people to do anything in Trials, yet somehow this content is far from dead(in fact it just got a new Trial just last DLC). How can you possibly keep saying "imposed grouping" kills content with that in mind?

Sort of. Most good trials guilds can do a normal Trial with 4-6 people, and a vet Trial with 8 people.

That just further underscores the point though. Being in groups is far from restrictive.

AA you're forced to 12-person due to the pads. HRC you used to require 7 I think? Since you needed 6 to close a gate and the 7th to trigger the upstairs switches. Normal MoL is fun with 5-6 people. Vet SO, vMoL, vHoF and vAS I would be hesitant to go very far undermanned on vet mode - Assembly General is already tedious with its 80mil (non HM) health.

DosPanchos · December 2017

Kamatsu wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I don't get the hate for the OP's idea. The game is too easy by FAR.

Thing is the majority of players are solo questor's, who play games to relax and chill and not be challenged by it. I know there's the idea that 'making the game ramp difficulty up will make them learn to play better' - but sadly as has been proven time and time again in many other games (both online and offline), this does not happen. What happens is people keep playing their own way, and if/when the game gets too hard they quit it - they do not look for guides, help, strats, etc... they just drop the game and go play something else. That's the majority of the player base.

The other problem I've seen is the OP talking about having it as a difficulty slider/selection AND having the people who choose hard-mode to still be in the same instance/world as everyone else... and when they attack mob's, those mobs will then scale up to their hard-mode settings for everyone - this would 100% invite huge griefing.

Just imagine a bunch of jerks going around tagging mobs ppl need for quest's while in hard-mode. Suddenly ppl just questing in normal mode will find themselves facing hard-mode mobs instead. And yes, while the majority of ppl who would use the hard-mode would not do this... sadly there are enough jerks out there who would do exactly this.

So what it comes down to - the only way to do a "hard-mode" would be to separate those who are doing hard & normal mode, thus avoiding issue's of griefing or how to scale mobs depending on who's fighting them. Those who play normally will face things as they are now, while those who want harder fights and challenges can get them.

I'm not personally interested in doing a hard mode for overland, but I would 100% support a separate instanced hard-mode for those who want the challenge, but sadly I don't see it ever happening.

Why? Simple matter of economics - the cost to make the separate instance for hard-mode would not generate the RoI that spending that money on more zones, overland content, vet trials, vet dungeons, etc. To make it they would have to either pull dev's from existing projects... thus making those other projects take longer, or they'd have to hire even more people to develop the hard-mode while not effecting the rate-of-development of the other content.

And fact is, no matter how much it comes up on the forums and/or reddit, those seeking hard/challenging content are a minority of players... and since ZOS has shown they are as profit driven as EA, Activision, Take-Two, etc... I'd seriously doubt that they would invest in a lesser revenue generating project..

Appreciate the feedback. Do you think the game will enter a saturation point with content that is too easy? E.g., I personally don't touch new overland quests and delves bc it isn't challenging and isn't worth my attention; this is leading me to question the value of ESO plus subscriptions since I mostly pvp these days. All that to say: Is there a chance this will spread to a noticeable level within the player base?

lihentian · December 2017

DosPanchos wrote: »

Can I get an amen?
This content is too good, too detailed, and too potentially entertaining to make it this easy. Please, ZOS, do us all a favor and give your content the justice it deserves by making it HARD again!

Some suggestions:
1. Revamp caldwells quest to make it hard mode for that specific character. It doesn't matter if it's instanced delves just give us some challenging overland!

2. Make new dlc zones that have special challenges and not just the same old warn out easy content. C'mon, just one difficult overland zone. I dare you.

3. Merry Christmas you filthy animals!

we already have a hard mode.. just fight naked, don't eat food or drink potion. you will find normal pve content hard enough.. if it is still not hard enough, try to fight enemy with level 1 weapon.. if still not hard enough you can ask alchemist to make poison with side effect.. drink some poison before each fight to enhance difficulty.