Target Dummy DPS - should I be cheesing this?

Left4Daud · December 2017

Recently I've started working on my DPS rotation across a few characters utilizing the homestead target dummy. But I've come to realize that target dummy builds exist and there are a few tips and tricks you can do to boost your DPS on a target dummy. Changing mundus, using penetration sets, max stat + recovery food (no health), no defensive abilities on your bar etc...

But my question is, should I be cheesing the target dummy DPS test? Wouldn't it be better for me if I knew my DPS using a group build and not altering my set up JUST to boost the target dummy DPS score? Using my group build I've been able to hit 22k but should I use the target dummy cheese strats to boost this number?

What are your thoughts on the issue, does it matter?

code65536 · December 2017

It depends on why you're whacking on that dummy in the first place.

If you're just doing it for fun, then go nuts. Doesn't matter what you do.

But if you're doing it to benchmark yourself against others, then there's a set of de facto standards that the raiding community has adopted: no external buffs except for ele, fracture, worm, and orbs, using the gear, CP, food, mundus, skills, and health levels that you would in a typical trial.

Yes, it is a bit arbitrary, but there needs to be some sort of common standard in order for there to be meaningful comparisons between parses, and this was the standard that people have generally come to agree on.

VaranisArano · December 2017

You'll get a greater benefit by matching you set-up to the content you are measuring that DPS for. Sure I could get one of my friends to put ele drain on the dummy, but when I'm testing my DPS for Vet Maelstrom, that's not going to accurately reflect the conditions I'll be actually doing the DPS in. Accuracy is better.

code65536 · December 2017

VaranisArano wrote: »

You'll get a greater benefit by matching you set-up to the content you are measuring that DPS for. Sure I could get one of my friends to put ele drain on the dummy, but when I'm testing my DPS for Vet Maelstrom, that's not going to accurately reflect the conditions I'll be actually doing the DPS in. Accuracy is better.

That's not exactly the best example since most of your time in vMA is spent killing trash mobs that die to a quick burst of a couple of seconds, and even the vMA bosses are more about burst DPS than the kind sustained DPS trials boss DPS that dummies are designed for.

Izaki · December 2017

Why would you want to cheese a dummy parse? I mean you won't get satisfaction from it considering the fact that you've cheesed so... I just don't see the point.

Now obviously, some things are acceptable such as instead of using Hunding's you could use Two-Fanged (which basically simulates NMG + SF). The Lover mundus instead of the Warrior or the Apprentice is also kind of acceptable. But anything beyond that, like food and stuff, is just silly.

yttoks · December 2017

Not without a lot of thought as to the effects of the changes on group dps, which is what matters. Obviously a change that boosts individual dps at the expense of group dps is a bad idea.
Also, without group buffs active - so just wailing away at it alone - you may increase your individual dps in that context with a given change - only to find it lower in actual play (like, increase in penetration with skill or gear change improves dps against the dummy, but lowers your dps in the group because it was already optimized for penetration and you just traded weapon damage for overpenetration in the group setting.)

Best use for a target dummy for me is combining with a good addon like combat metrics to really get that rotation tight. I was surprised at the result, myself. Things I thought I needed to work on were pretty good, buffs I thought were staying up well were dropping out too much, etc.

Erai_sedai · December 2017

I personally keep my bar so it replicates a real fight. Same as my mundas and food. No cheese

MLGProPlayer · December 2017

If you're going for optimal DPS (either for e-peen or to join a guild), you're expected to cheese the test. That's how you get the biggest numbers.

AlienatedGoat · December 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

If you're going for optimal DPS (either for e-peen or to join a guild), you're expected to cheese the test. That's how you get the biggest numbers.

Sad but true.

dpencil1 · December 2017

I cheese my parses by using potions even though I hardly ever use them in actual gameplay, cause I'm cheap. I also do parses with my no-potion rotation as well, but the main reason I parse is to compare different gear or rotations against each other, and potions make that easier. I also do most of my parsing on the pts, so I'm not wasting my potions on Live.

code65536 · December 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

If you're going for optimal DPS (either for e-peen or to join a guild), you're expected to cheese the test. That's how you get the biggest numbers.

Um. You do realize that this doesn't actually work unless you're trying to impress a newbie who doesn't know any better, right?

This is why people don't just ask for a number--people will ask for your entire Combat Metrics screen. They will see what food and Mundus stone you used. That you expended 1.7K mag/s while gaining only 1.2K mag/s so that whatever you did is not sustainable. And then they'll ask you to do it again the right way (if applying for a guild) or dismiss your parse as meaningless cheese (if you were trying to show off your e-peen).

Left4Daud · December 2017

Thanks for all the feedback. Does anyone have suggestions on a good DPS number to aim for self buffed with mDK? I know mDKs are kinda in a bad spot for competitive trials environment but I enjoy playing the class so what should I shoot for?

Mureel · December 2017

VaranisArano wrote: »

You'll get a greater benefit by matching you set-up to the content you are measuring that DPS for. Sure I could get one of my friends to put ele drain on the dummy, but when I'm testing my DPS for Vet Maelstrom, that's not going to accurately reflect the conditions I'll be actually doing the DPS in. Accuracy is better.

Except most of vma is not even a DPS race/mostly trash and my build is TOTALLY different for VMA than for Trials.

Qbiken · December 2017

Use the same setup on a dummy as you would use in a dungeon or raid. Don't cheese it.

AlienatedGoat · December 2017

code65536 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

If you're going for optimal DPS (either for e-peen or to join a guild), you're expected to cheese the test. That's how you get the biggest numbers.

Um. You do realize that this doesn't actually work unless you're trying to impress a newbie who doesn't know any better, right?

This is why people don't just ask for a number--people will ask for your entire Combat Metrics screen. They will see what food and Mundus stone you used. That you expended 1.7K mag/s while gaining only 1.2K mag/s so that whatever you did is not sustainable. And then they'll ask you to do it again the right way (if applying for a guild) or dismiss your parse as meaningless cheese (if you were trying to show off your e-peen).

A well organized guild might ask for a CM screencap but I've never run into one that does. They always tend to ask for the dummy screencap. TBH it'd be better if all guilds asked for a CM screencap, because then maybe all these inflated numbers I see swung around will stop being taken as proof of DPS competence. Running 50k on a dummy doesn't mean jack if you can't replicate results in a live run.

MLGProPlayer · December 2017

Left4Daud wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback. Does anyone have suggestions on a good DPS number to aim for self buffed with mDK? I know mDKs are kinda in a bad spot for competitive trials environment but I enjoy playing the class so what should I shoot for?

35k is generally the cutoff for leader board guilds (but I'm not sure if that's changed with recent patches).

MLGProPlayer · December 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

Use the same setup on a dummy as you would use in a dungeon or raid. Don't cheese it.

Most raid setups rely on group buffs and procs. Your DPS will be *** without a partner. Some guilds will provide a partner to test while others might just ask for a solo test. You need a solo build for a solo test.

All a DPS test shows is that you can animation cancel and manage resources.

Qbiken · December 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Use the same setup on a dummy as you would use in a dungeon or raid. Don't cheese it.

Most raid setups rely on group buffs and procs. Your DPS will be *** without a partner. Some guilds will provide a partner to test while others might just ask for a solo test. You need a solo build for a solo test.

All a DPS test shows is that you can animation cancel and manage resources.

Partly true..
a stamDK using hunding+velidreth+sunder (with vMA bow and warrior mundus, lover =cheese) would pull somewhere between 33-37k dps on a dummy with major fracture. No cheese involved and with a legit trial setup.

If I were a raidleader and was send a dps parse where some just stacked as much penetration as possible (eg 2fanged+NMG+kragh+lover) I would kindly ask that person to do another parse with legit gear and not that kind of cheese....

If someone needsneed off-balance support (aka magDK), drain,worm, fracture, orbs /shards to proc moondancer etc...I'm totally ok with that, because those are things that can/should be in a raid. But using cheese dummy setups that would never be used in a raid is just meh.....

Pastas · December 2017

Left4Daud wrote: »

Recently I've started working on my DPS rotation across a few characters utilizing the homestead target dummy. But I've come to realize that target dummy builds exist and there are a few tips and tricks you can do to boost your DPS on a target dummy. Changing mundus, using penetration sets, max stat + recovery food (no health), no defensive abilities on your bar etc...

But my question is, should I be cheesing the target dummy DPS test? Wouldn't it be better for me if I knew my DPS using a group build and not altering my set up JUST to boost the target dummy DPS score? Using my group build I've been able to hit 22k but should I use the target dummy cheese strats to boost this number?

What are your thoughts on the issue, does it matter?

The whole point of target dummie is practicing your rotation and testing different gear/skills IMO. You can use a "dummie-build" if you want to raise your numbers, but the most important thing is to improve your performance. I recomend you to use the build you are running in trials/dungeon and try to get better numbers polishing your rotation.

HatchetHaro · December 2017

There's no real agreed-upon standard for parsing and what constitutes as cheesing a parse. I personally parse with whatever that would be great for pugging dungeons in, and also to follow my previous benchmark parsing setups from previous patches for the sake of consistency, so TFS, Kra'gh's, and 39 points into piercing is what I would do for my parsing optimization.

Many raiders consider doing anything like that "cheesing", and I understand it. Still, being able to cheese a dummy parse also shows knowledge of penetration values, so it's not all bad.

Cillion3117 · December 2017

Target dummies don't hit back. So be careful going into a vet dungeon with a dummy build.

idk · December 2017

Phage wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

If you're going for optimal DPS (either for e-peen or to join a guild), you're expected to cheese the test. That's how you get the biggest numbers.

Um. You do realize that this doesn't actually work unless you're trying to impress a newbie who doesn't know any better, right?

This is why people don't just ask for a number--people will ask for your entire Combat Metrics screen. They will see what food and Mundus stone you used. That you expended 1.7K mag/s while gaining only 1.2K mag/s so that whatever you did is not sustainable. And then they'll ask you to do it again the right way (if applying for a guild) or dismiss your parse as meaningless cheese (if you were trying to show off your e-peen).

A well organized guild might ask for a CM screencap but I've never run into one that does. They always tend to ask for the dummy screencap. TBH it'd be better if all guilds asked for a CM screencap, because then maybe all these inflated numbers I see swung around will stop being taken as proof of DPS competence. Running 50k on a dummy doesn't mean jack if you can't replicate results in a live run.

Yes, it would be better, however, as you mentioned, it happens with a well organized guild. They tend to have a better grasp on what fits their needs best.

Also, the discussion in this thread is about the dummy parse. A well organized guild will likely also want to see how you do in trials which is also much more than a DPS parse.

For anyone tuning in, Code's first reply here lists a good standard for what is permitted in a dummy parse. While the benefits of fracture can be calculated, the benefits of ele drain and orbs is pretty much essential. Without normal, common sustain being provided one would have to either change their rotation or their build for sustain and therefor the parse does not reflect their real build.

KanedaSyndrome · December 2017

Left4Daud wrote: »

Recently I've started working on my DPS rotation across a few characters utilizing the homestead target dummy. But I've come to realize that target dummy builds exist and there are a few tips and tricks you can do to boost your DPS on a target dummy. Changing mundus, using penetration sets, max stat + recovery food (no health), no defensive abilities on your bar etc...

But my question is, should I be cheesing the target dummy DPS test? Wouldn't it be better for me if I knew my DPS using a group build and not altering my set up JUST to boost the target dummy DPS score? Using my group build I've been able to hit 22k but should I use the target dummy cheese strats to boost this number?

What are your thoughts on the issue, does it matter?

What would your purpose with "cheesing" your DPS test? I mean, it's only for evaluating a build that you use in actual content and compare different builds. There's no point in big numbers for the sake of big numbers, unless you think that is fun.

SoLooney · December 2017

real dps tests are done on centurions with your 12 man squad. those smaller dummies are mostly for practicing rotations