Maintenance for the week of March 25:
• [IN PROGRESS] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – March 28, 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)

We need to do something about the zergbads.

  • Smmokkee
    Smmokkee
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Motherball wrote: »
    Zergs are more fun because when you mess up, nobody notices. I dont need someone telling me I suck, or to play their way when Im playing a video game. There are probably way more people that like zerg pvp than bg for this reason alone. The numbers indicate this as well.

    You could eliminate the zergs, but you would likely eliminate the majority of pvp as well. Players who do not thrive on competition arent going to stick around and be berated by tryhards, so the number of targets will be reduced significantly, in my opinion.

    Back in the day there were more pvpers. I suggest they do some reverting to bring them back.
  • CyrusArya
    CyrusArya
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Even if Cyrodiil was designed for groups of 8 to 24 players?

    8-24 is just normal mode. 1-8 is vet.

    And solo 1vX is veteran hard mode, assuming the X aren’t all light attack spamming lowbys that die to shock and awe.

    Edited by CyrusArya on November 30, 2017 6:20PM
    A R Y A
    -Atmosphere
    -Ary'a
    Czarya
    The K-Hole ~ Phałanx
    My PvP Videos
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Problem is, game shouldn't favor big groups. having the numbers is an advantage by itself,

    Even if Cyrodiil was designed for groups of 8 to 24 players?

    A group that is organized is strong because of their organization. A group that is unorganized is weak in comparison, really only relying on numbers.

    How exactly do you propose to nerf the benefits of being organized in such a way that doesn't turn unorganized players into cannon fodder or make organized raids more powerful than they already are?

    Not him, but still:

    Forgetting all the stuff about artificially limiting players or dynamic ultimate.

    There should still be well scaling abilities. Defences like wings/crystallised all get ruined by groups. Whilst better made. (In theory) Like cloak can doesn't have some limit. Working per person with some balance tweaks would help greatly. Offense like blazing shield should be buffed again, since it only does high damage with enough people beating on it.

    Total damage (maybe healing too, bit risky) AOE cap removal, this means with effect too. DB should stun everyone applicable in the radius Won't affect small/solo.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • lao
    lao
    ✭✭✭✭
    lao wrote: »
    the problem with that is that when you spread the population out over too many zones you just end up with low activity in all of them till all but one die and everyone flocking over to the one active zone regardless wether they agree with the ruleset or not. a similar thing is already happening with campaigns.

    it doesnt have anything to do with wether i like or dont like objective based pvp. it doesnt work. thats an undenyable fact and its been proven over and over in ESO for the last 3 years. unless you think 300 ping pvp cos 98% of the population is using 2% of the map at the time is enjoyable that is. note how i dont even need to mention the fact that zergs are *** and boring to make my point. it simply doesnt work from a technical point of view.

    Sorry. Your undeniable fact is very deniable for people who actually like objective-based PVP. Like me. Now, certainly ZOS could upgrade their servers to handle it better (when couldn't ZOS stand to improve their servers? Right, never.), but I love the strategy of Cyrodiil that leads both to people heading to the same important objectives and spreading out to hit the less defended ones. Its PVP on a strategic level that then leads to PVP on the battlefield.

    You disagree. I get that. So, don't destroy the Cyrodiil I love in order to get the Cyrodiil of your dreams. I've got no problem with your vision of a free-for-all no-objective PVP, but I definitely have a problem with you wanting to remove the option of objective based PVP.

    ZOS upgrading servers to a point where they can handle your massive zergball of bads will never happen. tbh i doubt its even possible cos im fairly sure the bottleneck here is the netcode and not the hardware. so yes my undeniable fact remains very much undeniable.

    regarding your second point, well, BG´s are objective based for the most part so you already got your "strategic" playmode. open world pvp zones have always and will always be meant for actual open world pvp. (note PvP here, not PvDooR or PvNPC or PvFLAG)

    The End.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    lao wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    the problem with that is that when you spread the population out over too many zones you just end up with low activity in all of them till all but one die and everyone flocking over to the one active zone regardless wether they agree with the ruleset or not. a similar thing is already happening with campaigns.

    it doesnt have anything to do with wether i like or dont like objective based pvp. it doesnt work. thats an undenyable fact and its been proven over and over in ESO for the last 3 years. unless you think 300 ping pvp cos 98% of the population is using 2% of the map at the time is enjoyable that is. note how i dont even need to mention the fact that zergs are *** and boring to make my point. it simply doesnt work from a technical point of view.

    Sorry. Your undeniable fact is very deniable for people who actually like objective-based PVP. Like me. Now, certainly ZOS could upgrade their servers to handle it better (when couldn't ZOS stand to improve their servers? Right, never.), but I love the strategy of Cyrodiil that leads both to people heading to the same important objectives and spreading out to hit the less defended ones. Its PVP on a strategic level that then leads to PVP on the battlefield.

    You disagree. I get that. So, don't destroy the Cyrodiil I love in order to get the Cyrodiil of your dreams. I've got no problem with your vision of a free-for-all no-objective PVP, but I definitely have a problem with you wanting to remove the option of objective based PVP.

    ZOS upgrading servers to a point where they can handle your massive zergball of bads will never happen. tbh i doubt its even possible cos im fairly sure the bottleneck here is the netcode and not the hardware. so yes my undeniable fact remains very much undeniable.

    regarding your second point, well, BG´s are objective based for the most part so you already got your "strategic" playmode. open world pvp zones have always and will always be meant for actual open world pvp. (note PvP here, not PvDooR or PvNPC or PvFLAG)

    The End.

    Oh. Good to know that home keeps, enemy keeps, resources, scrolls, and emperorship have absolutely no bearing on the campaigns and create no PVP whatsoever.
  • Jawasa
    Jawasa
    ✭✭✭
    Maybe i'm one of the few that think organisation and build synergy should be rewarded instead of zerging and left clicking. Purge cost is huge even in la to spam it you need to build around it same with rapids. But so far zos Havent touched these abilitys after the farled changes to rapids last time.

    For example if you play in a group and defend a keeps vs the enemy faction stack you need movement, coordination and a good group comp. Not 10 fireballistas and this is a good thing but that seems to be a lot of people dream here. Well fire ballisatas are very casual friendly i guess.
  • Jawasa
    Jawasa
    ✭✭✭
    @CyrusArya Nah 12-16 vet trial hm aka end game. ;)
  • CyrusArya
    CyrusArya
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Jawasa wrote: »
    @CyrusArya Nah 12-16 vet trial hm aka end game. ;)

    Anyone who can 1vX consistently can be a phenomenal raider. The inverse however is not true. Most zerg players are not capable of 1vX. In fact they can hardly 1v1 in my experience.

    All that needs to be said about which game mode is harder or requires more skill.
    A R Y A
    -Atmosphere
    -Ary'a
    Czarya
    The K-Hole ~ Phałanx
    My PvP Videos
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jawasa wrote: »
    Maybe i'm one of the few that think organisation and build synergy should be rewarded instead of zerging and left clicking. Purge cost is huge even in la to spam it you need to build around it same with rapids. But so far zos Havent touched these abilitys after the farled changes to rapids last time.

    For example if you play in a group and defend a keeps vs the enemy faction stack you need movement, coordination and a good group comp. Not 10 fireballistas and this is a good thing but that seems to be a lot of people dream here. Well fire ballisatas are very casual friendly i guess.

    10 fire ballistas plus a push by uncoordinated players are enough to push off an uncoordinated bunch of players. Its probably not going to be sufficient against organized groups.

    10 fire ballistas plus a push by organized players is going to be far more effective. In large-group or small group play, organization is king.
  • A_G_G_R_O
    A_G_G_R_O
    ✭✭✭✭
    CyrusArya wrote: »
    Jawasa wrote: »
    @CyrusArya Nah 12-16 vet trial hm aka end game. ;)

    Anyone who can 1vX consistently can be a phenomenal raider. The inverse however is not true. Most zerg players are not capable of 1vX. In fact they can hardly 1v1 in my experience.

    All that needs to be said about which game mode is harder or requires more skill.

    This 1000%
  • Jawasa
    Jawasa
    ✭✭✭
    How many high lvl pvp guilds do We have? 2 or 3 per server maybe. 1vx is hard in todays meta few can do it but average players with the right build and gear do great in smaller groups. Same in raids can do ok with average players but great raids need to be made up of good players that play togther a lot.

    @VaranisArano i prefer that abilitys and skil win battels over ballistas. So i dont want the counters nerfed. I think the balance today is fine. If you build your group Well you can live true it with movment, purge and siege shield. If you just stand in it you get killed.
  • Ultimate_Overlord
    Ultimate_Overlord
    ✭✭✭
    Cause organization and build synergy are achieved by half of the group spamming 1 button(which could be left click if you so choose) while running a specific build.
    Sarcasm aside, the point is that spamming purge in a zerg takes as much effort as sitting on a ballista shooting that zerg.
    Edited by Ultimate_Overlord on December 2, 2017 6:50AM
  • Jawasa
    Jawasa
    ✭✭✭
    Sounds like a fair counter then? One click removes one click.
  • gabormezo
    gabormezo
    ✭✭✭
    Just increase AP gain overall, but divide the earned points for the group evenly. Maybe except there should be a tiny bonus on kills. Then players will spread for sure.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    gabormezo wrote: »
    Just increase AP gain overall, but divide the earned points for the group evenly. Maybe except there should be a tiny bonus on kills. Then players will spread for sure.

    The AP for kills is already divided amongst players who damaged the enemy - hence you get less AP for killing one guy with your whole group. The AP for defensive ticks is also divided between all the players on the grounds. The only AP not divided are the questing AP rewards and the offensive ticks which give a flat reward + a divided AP bonus for players who died on the grounds divided between the amount of people on the grounds.
  • Kode
    Kode
    ✭✭✭
    The combat mechanics favor zerg style play. Smart healing is probably one of the biggest offenses. It is extremely convenient that I don't need to target my ally, but it trivializes healing to the point that it makes healing overpowered, especially for a zerg.
    The other big part of the problem is point blank AoE. It encourages swarming of players running over groups while spamming the same point blank skill.
    And hand in hand with that is the 0 cool down mechanic, which essentially means that players can cast the same ability repeatedly, leading to massive zergs of button mashers running together and only growing in power relative to their size.
    Also, long duration CC immunity, along with the ability to repeatedly break CC makes countering almost impossible because effects can be broken, purged or otherwise cleansed off as quickly as they can be added.

    A zerg can be countered by a skillful zerg for sure. A pug group of button mashers wont win against a carefully planned zerg with purpose built characters and coordination.

    I would love to see more AoE abilities that can target the zerg without having to get into the kill zone, which would allow a bunch of single players to lob effective attacks into the zerg without dying.
    Maybe a hard CC that can decimate a zerg with an unavoidable group knock back to break the zerg up. In other words... hurl this ability into the zerg and if they don't spread, they get spread without any chance to resist it. I know it sounds unfair, but there needs to be a hard counter against zergs and I am sorry but proxy isn't it.
    Kode Darkstar, Aldmeri Dominion
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would love to see more AoE abilities that can target the zerg without having to get into the kill zone, which would allow a bunch of single players to lob effective attacks into the zerg without dying.

    That's called siege weapons. Used on the walls or used in the field, they can be pretty effective. Best of all, anyone can use them.

    As for your other skill you want to break up a zerg, what makes you think that the zerg, especially the organized raids, won't turn around and use that same ability back much more effectively? Every player gets access to the same skills. You can use a destro ulti to bomb a raid as a solo player and the raid can use that destro ulti to smash another raid with the pain train. Whatever skills you introduce to break up an organized raid, that organized raid is going to figure out how to use effectively for their own playstyle.

  • TheBonesXXX
    TheBonesXXX
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Make siege hit as hard as it did as release, 100 people used to die with one or two well placed ballistas.
  • Kode
    Kode
    ✭✭✭
    I would love to see more AoE abilities that can target the zerg without having to get into the kill zone, which would allow a bunch of single players to lob effective attacks into the zerg without dying.

    That's called siege weapons. Used on the walls or used in the field, they can be pretty effective. Best of all, anyone can use them.

    As for your other skill you want to break up a zerg, what makes you think that the zerg, especially the organized raids, won't turn around and use that same ability back much more effectively? Every player gets access to the same skills. You can use a destro ulti to bomb a raid as a solo player and the raid can use that destro ulti to smash another raid with the pain train. Whatever skills you introduce to break up an organized raid, that organized raid is going to figure out how to use effectively for their own playstyle.

    I agree, and I have seen the same happen over the years. You have a fair point on seige.
    As for the skill, the trick is in making is so specific that it can only be effective if people are clustered and only as a CC. If noobs know this and still cluster (which they probably will) then they deserve to be fodder anyway.


    Either way, zerging is a boring and broken style of gameplay. What is your suggestion for a fix?

    Kode Darkstar, Aldmeri Dominion
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would love to see more AoE abilities that can target the zerg without having to get into the kill zone, which would allow a bunch of single players to lob effective attacks into the zerg without dying.

    That's called siege weapons. Used on the walls or used in the field, they can be pretty effective. Best of all, anyone can use them.

    As for your other skill you want to break up a zerg, what makes you think that the zerg, especially the organized raids, won't turn around and use that same ability back much more effectively? Every player gets access to the same skills. You can use a destro ulti to bomb a raid as a solo player and the raid can use that destro ulti to smash another raid with the pain train. Whatever skills you introduce to break up an organized raid, that organized raid is going to figure out how to use effectively for their own playstyle.

    I agree, and I have seen the same happen over the years. You have a fair point on seige.
    As for the skill, the trick is in making is so specific that it can only be effective if people are clustered and only as a CC. If noobs know this and still cluster (which they probably will) then they deserve to be fodder anyway.


    Either way, zerging is a boring and broken style of gameplay. What is your suggestion for a fix?

    There isn't a fix. Zerging happens because there are objectives on the map that are important for the faction.

    See, when my faction has multiple organized raids + PUGs show up at the same keep, its strategic movement to an important objective that's necessary for our faction. Go team!

    When the enemy does it, they're zerging and ought to be ashamed.

    That's not actually how it works. Everyone can read the same map and know what the important objectives are. Organized raids, solo players, small groups, and PUGs alike. Lots of players showing up at the same objectives is a sign that you've got a healthy population playing and that your faction's players can read the map. You can beat a zerg of disorganized players pretty easily. Beating a zerg with an organized raid in the middle is lots harder because organized raids are tougher and more effective due to their organization. You can pull apart a zerg by making them focus on different objectives. But you can't actually end the zerg style of gameplay as long as there are objectives that are important for the faction. Players know what's important and will go there (and when players go other places with less players, they get yelled at for PvDooring - can't win either way).

    FYI, the skill closest to what you are looking for is the Warden Permafrost Ulti. Massive CC potential. Guess who uses it the most effectively? Organized raids looking to lockdown their enemies. Or look at Vicious Death, another set meant to encourage people not stacking up. Who uses it well? Bombers and Raids.
  • Jawasa
    Jawasa
    ✭✭✭
    The reason why it's best used by the groups is because They fight outnumbered. For example if i fight 16 vs 2-6 why put on vd just go pure dmg. When numbers go up thats when vd is good.
  • CoJaxDeBrujah
    Azurya wrote: »
    we have this discussion for years ongoing now.
    Every time we have a new enemy which spits in the soup of the true dedicated PvPlayer

    First it were the Stamblades, which got rooted out on request so well that they now lives somewhere in the marges of this game
    Then all stamabilities got nerfed in the ground, so now you hardly find even stamina users in PVE anymore. Then the heavy armour users got in the line of fire.

    and now, what now? Now you are sick and tired of playing every evening the same schedule? But that is where it all leads to.
    Diversity was killed, ppl no longer have another possibility as to do it the way they are doing it now.

    and somehow you are still not satisfied with the results??

    Cyrodil in its younger days was about diversity, today it is only about meta, and that is what makes it so dumb to be there and leave evening after evening with a dumb feeling, and finding me asking myself, why is it boring to play in cyro?!?

    I have had those builds, using bows, sneaking, 2-handed warriors, but yeah, that all had to go. So now I am running a magicka build, spamming RoF, pumping Destrothings and longing for a nice long battle like we had back when.

    What you said about the stamina users and nightblades is inaccurate. I am a stamblade myself and I have no issues in pvp. Of course I'm not claiming that I can go toe to toe with magika users or even or even other Stam builds, that would be wishful thinking on my part. But who said I had to got toe to toe with anybody. It isn't the class or skills that make or break a build, although they do play a part, it's how you use them. My detection radius is so insanely low that in order for you to see me I would need to be right in front of your face. But I'm not going to get anywhere near that close. I'm going to hit you with my bow, then while you're stunned I'll gap close and finish it with my daggers, reenter stealth, rinse and repeat. Stam builds are not dead by any means.
    So someone stole your sweet roll eh? Yeah..... it was me, and it was delicious.
Sign In or Register to comment.