Urza1234 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Urza1234 wrote: »

Personally I think fake tanks is far worse than fake DPS because of the attitude of the perpetrator.

A *** DPS is usually just some kindly, affable, potato. They're nice people doing their best, its just that their best isnt very good. Thats ok, this is a game and they're not paid to be here, no need for performance reviews.

A fake tank is almost always some callous sheister gaming the system because they think that rules don't apply to them. If they're ever questioned or called out on not being a tank, or at least slotting a taunt, their attitude is always horrendous. As you can tell I'm biased, but when I approach these fake tanks I always stay polite because what I want out of them is for them to fill their role, not an argument. Still, 9/10 times they're complete dirtbags about it as soon as the topic is broached.
That last 10% of the time its just some noob who has no idea what a taunt is, or they checked the wrong box in groupfinder accidentally, no hard feelings.

Lol. Sounds like your attitude is also a problem. I've never seen a fake tank who didn't just carry a group through the dungeon. There are plenty of bad tanks, very few bad fake tanks.

And there is a need for performance reviews quite frankly, I'm not here to run a normal dungeon for an hour when it should be done in 15-20 minutes. My game time is limited and therefore important to me.

I dont bring my attitude into the dungeon. It doesnt help.

I've fake tanked many many times (just ran nDC1 around 50 times for a automaton dagger). I always wait for everybody to enter and see if they start the quest, if they do I wait at certain points for the dialogue to finish. I always have a taunt as well, and sufficient self heals to make up for the fact I don't have any real mitigation.

At one point I was doing with a two other guildies and the fourth person did say it was too fast so we slowed up for him, even though we don't actually need him.

Urza1234 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Urza1234 wrote: »

Personally I think fake tanks is far worse than fake DPS because of the attitude of the perpetrator.

A *** DPS is usually just some kindly, affable, potato. They're nice people doing their best, its just that their best isnt very good. Thats ok, this is a game and they're not paid to be here, no need for performance reviews.

A fake tank is almost always some callous sheister gaming the system because they think that rules don't apply to them. If they're ever questioned or called out on not being a tank, or at least slotting a taunt, their attitude is always horrendous. As you can tell I'm biased, but when I approach these fake tanks I always stay polite because what I want out of them is for them to fill their role, not an argument. Still, 9/10 times they're complete dirtbags about it as soon as the topic is broached.
That last 10% of the time its just some noob who has no idea what a taunt is, or they checked the wrong box in groupfinder accidentally, no hard feelings.

Lol. Sounds like your attitude is also a problem. I've never seen a fake tank who didn't just carry a group through the dungeon. There are plenty of bad tanks, very few bad fake tanks.

And there is a need for performance reviews quite frankly, I'm not here to run a normal dungeon for an hour when it should be done in 15-20 minutes. My game time is limited and therefore important to me.

I dont bring my attitude into the dungeon. It doesnt help.

A fake tank is by definition bad, since they dont fill the role they signed up for. If they dont slot a taunt, dont manage trash packs, and dont hold the boss still, they are a fake tank, and the dungeon takes longer because of their self-involvement. I do not care if the person in the tank slot has 10k hp as long as they do those 3 things.

You simply cannot "carry" a dungeon as a fake tank unless you are literally soloing it. They might be more self-sufficient than the people who legitimately queued as DPS, thus doing more damage, but since they are making the dungeon harder for the other DPS they are serving as an active detriment to the completion of the dungeon, not carrying it. The only way to carry as a tank is to do your job and do it well. If you can do a bunch of damage while also doing your job then congratulations, but if you're just doing damage while letting the rest of the dungeon devolve into chaos then you are actually making things take longer.

I have never experienced the situation you describe. If you're fake tanking you should be basically able to solo the dungeon, you just queue because:
You are running a random dungeon
You know its faster with other people
There are mechanics in the dungeon which require two people

Urza1234 wrote: »

Urza1234 wrote: »

I have never experienced the situation you describe. If you're fake tanking you should be basically able to solo the dungeon, you just queue because:
You are running a random dungeon
You know its faster with other people
There are mechanics in the dungeon which require two people

Runefang wrote: »

Then the real distinction is between 'fake' and 'bad'.

Fake, to me, means a full DPS build + taunt.

Bad just means they can't control the dungeon. That means doesn't taunt, or block, interrupt etc

Really? Because I experienced it a dozen times yesterday alone. I'm talking NBs running DW and DW only, Sorcs with fire staves, none of them with taunt, not even using AoE to manage trash. I'm talking a good half dozen of them either wardens or DKs who think that 2H sword is a tanking weapon. I'm talking having to tank bosses as the healer for every dungeon, because I inevitably pull agro on every boss.

Dude I Wish I got something as close to a tank as a DD with a taunt.

When I ask a tank to taunt I tend to try to approach them with the benefit of the doubt, maybe they havent heard of taunt, so I ask them to try taunting the boss and holding it still. I've literally been kicked for that by what I assume was a 3-man group, though usually what I get is "its a normal, get over it". I'm perfectly willing to accept if a tank is just bad, but if they wont even slot a taunt, even when asked, they're *** fake, and they invariably pull some kind of attitude about it.

Somehow I never run into fake healers. Sure I've met bad healers who think that you can clear a healing check like in Darkshade 2 by spamming Rapid Regen, or who think that Dawnbreaker is a proper healing ult for vet content, but they're always willing to work with the group and figure out what they can do to clear the content better. They always at least have a resto staff or healing abilities slotted. Somehow people think that queueing for tank and then doing absolutely nothing that is even close to approximating that role is ok.

Guess I should count myself lucky I haven't had your experiences.

Urza1234 wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

I imagine the answer to this question depends on what role you play. For example, I play damage dealer and so if the other dd is terrible I can just pick up the slack.

Probably the same if you play healer/tank you can accommodate for another crappy support but you feel the pain of low damage.

Thing that most bothers me is if someone is dying all the time. Even if you're bad at your role, if you can stay alive at least the rest of the team doesn't have to waste time rezzing. Of course being bad and dying a lot go hand in hand usually.

I usually pug as healer because then I can at least help with dps. I tend not to pug as tank b/c I run high HP low damage support tanks, so I agree to a certain extent.

As a healer I absolutely abhor the fake tanks over anyone else, because they're forcing me to pick up their slack without my consent, and they do this as a policy without any consideration for other people. Its a breakdown of the social trust, these are the kind of people who cause the free rider problem in the societal providing of public goods.

Honestly in the best of all worlds for pugging normals I would love to heal for basically a stam DD with caltrops and a S&B filling the tank role. Caltrops is great for initiating on packs of trash and grouping them, if the DD has Chains then all the better. Then S&B for puncture is imo a must just for boss management.

*** fake tanks fail to realize that when you cant AoE trash and instead all 3 DDs are running around in circles and trying to single-target each individual enemy individually every single pack of trash takes 2x as long. The same concept applies to bosses, if the boss doesnt hold still your group damage is halved because you cant rely on placed abilities, and if your group has no Puncture then there's another 10% of your group's damage gone.
Fake tanks are thus not only fraudulent, they're dumb, a single extra damage dealer does not make up for the chaos of not having enemy management.

That was very well-put! +35 brownie points!

When I'm on my tank, I tend to shiver at low DPS, but ultimately see it as a soft challenge to manage resources. Can sometimes be fun.

When I am on my healer, I am quite unforgiving of bad fake tanks. When I PuG (I PuG vet) I'd say that 7/10 I get some DD who didn't even slot a taunt, running around and dying to a boss' sneeze, and always eager to pull more than the group can handle.

This royally pisses me off to no end. It is against the spirit of role balance in dungeons, the queue, and doesn't make the run any easier. They are usually mega squishy, which just highlights the irony of their actions-- they are reliant on a real healer, while denying us the comfort and order a real tank provides. As someone mentioned, all that extra DPS is of no use if trash packs and bosses are all over the place, it just takes longer and really puts a strain on the healer. Add in some low DPS, and the boss constantly in your face, and I'm usually a melting pot of negative emotions, targeted at that fake tank, by the end of the run. I just can't help it.

I've recently formed a habit of dropping the group as soon as I notice it is a fake tank, regardless of whether they were good at it or not. Too many new players see this in dungeons and do the same thing thinking this is the norm, giving us more bad fake tanks in the queue.

When politely addressed to at least slot a taunt for main bosses, I get the usual reply of "you don't need a tank for this dungeon", at which point I really really wish he had gotten a fake healer, instead, and see how he enjoy lying all dead and useless on the ground, with no one there to heal his arse.

Pre-made groups, that's the answer! Bring your non-trinity set-up in pre-made groups and keep it away from the dungeon finder! Most fake tanks do really come off as selfish and obnoxious, speeding along and pulling trash packs they can't even survive in. I hate them with a passion. God I really hate them.

@FloppyTouch reminds me of my first vDC2 run... which incidentally is one of only about three times I've actually failed a dungeon.

I'm almost positive one of the DPS and the healer were the same player multiboxing. The Tank and I knew each other, but, these other two... As in, only one would move at a time. Yeah, that did not go well.

They're both just as bad.
I remember a few weeks ago when I queued for a dungeon. And when we couldn't defeat one of the bosses, our tank then said he wasn't actually a tank. Despite queueing as a tank. And yes, we all left the group after that.
I run a healer, and I'm damn well gonna heal as best I can. But when the tank ain't even doing what they're supposed to do in their role; it's just frustrating.

Well, I am a terreeble DPS, so I say BLAME THE HEALER!! But seriously, my brother and I can 2 man vet city of ash 1, but couldnt beat it with a pug last night, fake tank, fake healer, and no DPS other than mine.

As I mainly heal in dungeons, I do not mind a fake tank who at least doesn’t seem to die because they know the mechanics and know how to dps.

Low dps is expected in a pug, but I dislike it because it means I have to change my plans. Instead of planning to spend 15 mins in a dungeon then leave my pc to do something else, now I have to delay things and spend 30 mins in that dungeon

while in this game more so than any other i have played - high dps can make a huge difference, I still have to go with fake support, because as much as dps can make or break the group, so can support, or lack of thereof.

that said, and this is a pet peeve of mine. over reliance on rng based drops as group support. gear. I'm talking about gear. neither of my healers wear spellpower cure or wormcult. I'd love to. but what pieces i did manage that didn't have awful traits to get are not enough for a full set. and becasue I'm sorry, but I play this game for fun, and running the same dungeon 50 times in a row to get the set I need, while tolerating complaining about not having that set yet (oh the irony) - is not my idea of fun. especially when that dungeon is WGT.

moreover - another pet peeve. animation bloody canceling. I wish, oh i so wish that ZoS didn't just roll with it and decide to design content around people using it. becasue not all of us can. when the difference between using and not using animation canceling is 20k dps? and when aforementioned animation canceling requires precision timing that even otherwise decent players cannot achieve? I'm sorry but its an awful design

there is a LOT of gate keeping and black or white thinking going on here. no room for in between. kinda sad.
/end rant