Soul Assault needs counterplay

pieratsos · November 2017

Sharee wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster

I don't think you really understand what the problem is.

It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.

If a build allows you to face anything without having to make compromises and without having to change playstyles and adapting to whatever you are fighting, then *that* would be a problem, in my opinion.

And you aren't forced to adapt. You can also choose to simply accept that a build which goes balls-out offense without taking defensive measures is going to have vulnerabilities.

You completely missed the point. Yes all builds should have vulnerabilities and make sacrifices so they can adapt. Its not about facing anything without compromises. That was never the point. The point is to actually have a way to face something through compromises and sacrifices that doesnt involve changing your entire playstyle. As the title says, it needs counterplay. Sorry but saying that the counter is to reroll is completely idiotic.

SA is already powerful against medium armor cause its undodgeable and it does stupid high dmg. That still doesnt explain why it has 7-8 ticks of dmg making the block counter also not viable unless u are using snb or why it applies a huge snare or why it gives the caster cc immunity or why it ignores the entire design of channeled abilities which is being able to interrupt them.

If this is the mentality we are following then we may as well make every ability in the game go through block, dodge, reflect, uninterruptable and call it a day. And whenever someone asks about a counter then the answer is going to be reroll. What could possibly go wrong with that.

Baconlad · November 2017

I has a magplar build for pvp...full divines, soulshine, warmaiden, slimecraw 1h 1m 5L. Absolutely zero *** given for defense. 92k buffed tooltip. In that build running soul assault, i still get medium armor, non-nightblades counter a purifying light, javelin, soul assault combo. The only time anything dies from that combo, hes either:
A- a really good player whos simply caught off guard, possibly taking damage from another player.
B- a lower CP player who cannot counter it due to experience or defensive CP.

Lets get real, the way everyones talking about this skill, you think that that combo would be the most OP thing in the game. So why is it that these players are able to counter it? Why do medium armor users still counter it if its supposedly broken op?

If i have given EVERY ounce of potential easy uptime of buffs and offebse to my toon, how come killing with soul assault is still mostly done against only low skill players?

Maybe the skill isnt as op as you guys think? In order for me to get a kill with the above combo on a good player, i have to do some softening blows, get him down a little bit. Only then does the skill do what its supposed to. The same could be said about any combo for any danage ult other classes have. Like stamina and DBoS, used in a combo at the right time against light armor is a WRAP. No chance at defending.

Plus 80% of the DPS mag toons out there that use soul assault arent maximized for tooltip damage and will be lucky to get 75-80k on it. Which isnt much considering the channeltime and the way its decreased in cyrodil (which seems to be much more decrease than other skills). My 1vX build barely gets 65k tooltip, and is accually a damage loss when it would be better to keep spamming puncturing sweeps. It requires a proper setup and combo to be effective...which is balanced in my opinion...after all, it is an ultimate...stop complaining about things that kill you. You ever been hit by a stamblade fully optimized for ganking and damage with turret? FML thats a wrap for me more often than not...but i dont cry, hes build his stamblade for that and me crying about would just be nonsense.

L2P

DDuke · November 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

I has a magplar build for pvp...full divines, soulshine, warmaiden, slimecraw 1h 1m 5L. Absolutely zero *** given for defense. 92k buffed tooltip. In that build running soul assault, i still get medium armor, non-nightblades counter a purifying light, javelin, soul assault combo. The only time anything dies from that combo, hes either:
A- a really good player whos simply caught off guard, possibly taking damage from another player.
B- a lower CP player who cannot counter it due to experience or defensive CP.

Lets get real, the way everyones talking about this skill, you think that that combo would be the most OP thing in the game. So why is it that these players are able to counter it? Why do medium armor users still counter it if its supposedly broken op?

If i have given EVERY ounce of potential easy uptime of buffs and offebse to my toon, how come killing with soul assault is still mostly done against only low skill players?

Maybe the skill isnt as op as you guys think? In order for me to get a kill with the above combo on a good player, i have to do some softening blows, get him down a little bit. Only then does the skill do what its supposed to. The same could be said about any combo for any danage ult other classes have. Like stamina and DBoS, used in a combo at the right time against light armor is a WRAP. No chance at defending.

Plus 80% of the DPS mag toons out there that use soul assault arent maximized for tooltip damage and will be lucky to get 75-80k on it. Which isnt much considering the channeltime and the way its decreased in cyrodil (which seems to be much more decrease than other skills). My 1vX build barely gets 65k tooltip, and is accually a damage loss when it would be better to keep spamming puncturing sweeps. It requires a proper setup and combo to be effective...which is balanced in my opinion...after all, it is an ultimate...stop complaining about things that kill you. You ever been hit by a stamblade fully optimized for ganking and damage with turret? FML thats a wrap for me more often than not...but i dont cry, hes build his stamblade for that and me crying about would just be nonsense.

L2P

Actually 92k buffed is pretty low, especially with that gear. It's possible to go up to 120k+ buffed tooltip with Soul Assault.

Anyway, considering half the population are running meta S&B and/or defensive sets like Brass or Impregnable on their medium armor characters, it's hardly surprising that they're able to survive.

Try hitting a non-tank build with it and watch what happens. Either their health or their stam pool disappears (sometimes both). Still, non-tank builds have problems with all undodgeable abilities (here's an example of the bull[snip] they have to endure), so singling out Soul Assault isn't really the solution.

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

I has a magplar build for pvp...full divines, soulshine, warmaiden, slimecraw 1h 1m 5L. Absolutely zero *** given for defense. 92k buffed tooltip. In that build running soul assault, i still get medium armor, non-nightblades counter a purifying light, javelin, soul assault combo. The only time anything dies from that combo, hes either:
A- a really good player whos simply caught off guard, possibly taking damage from another player.
B- a lower CP player who cannot counter it due to experience or defensive CP.

Lets get real, the way everyones talking about this skill, you think that that combo would be the most OP thing in the game. So why is it that these players are able to counter it? Why do medium armor users still counter it if its supposedly broken op?

If i have given EVERY ounce of potential easy uptime of buffs and offebse to my toon, how come killing with soul assault is still mostly done against only low skill players?

Maybe the skill isnt as op as you guys think? In order for me to get a kill with the above combo on a good player, i have to do some softening blows, get him down a little bit. Only then does the skill do what its supposed to. The same could be said about any combo for any danage ult other classes have. Like stamina and DBoS, used in a combo at the right time against light armor is a WRAP. No chance at defending.

Plus 80% of the DPS mag toons out there that use soul assault arent maximized for tooltip damage and will be lucky to get 75-80k on it. Which isnt much considering the channeltime and the way its decreased in cyrodil (which seems to be much more decrease than other skills). My 1vX build barely gets 65k tooltip, and is accually a damage loss when it would be better to keep spamming puncturing sweeps. It requires a proper setup and combo to be effective...which is balanced in my opinion...after all, it is an ultimate...stop complaining about things that kill you. You ever been hit by a stamblade fully optimized for ganking and damage with turret? FML thats a wrap for me more often than not...but i dont cry, hes build his stamblade for that and me crying about would just be nonsense.

L2P

Actually 92k buffed is pretty low, especially with that gear. It's possible to go up to 120k+ buffed tooltip with Soul Assault.

Anyway, considering half the population are running meta S&B and/or defensive sets like Brass or Impregnable on their medium armor characters, it's hardly surprising that they're able to survive.

Try hitting a non-tank build with it and watch what happens. Either their health or their stam pool disappears (sometimes both). Still, non-tank builds have problems with all undodgeable abilities (here's an example of the bull[snip] they have to endure), so singling out Soul Assault isn't really the solution.

92k is not a low tooltip on SA, regardless of the extremes that @Waffennacht could get to, not sure how he got there and what buffs he had. My friends nb was over 110k, but that was stealthed, which breaks immediately and doesn't last the whole channel.

Waffennacht · November 2017

.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

I has a magplar build for pvp...full divines, soulshine, warmaiden, slimecraw 1h 1m 5L. Absolutely zero *** given for defense. 92k buffed tooltip. In that build running soul assault, i still get medium armor, non-nightblades counter a purifying light, javelin, soul assault combo. The only time anything dies from that combo, hes either:
A- a really good player whos simply caught off guard, possibly taking damage from another player.
B- a lower CP player who cannot counter it due to experience or defensive CP.

Lets get real, the way everyones talking about this skill, you think that that combo would be the most OP thing in the game. So why is it that these players are able to counter it? Why do medium armor users still counter it if its supposedly broken op?

If i have given EVERY ounce of potential easy uptime of buffs and offebse to my toon, how come killing with soul assault is still mostly done against only low skill players?

Maybe the skill isnt as op as you guys think? In order for me to get a kill with the above combo on a good player, i have to do some softening blows, get him down a little bit. Only then does the skill do what its supposed to. The same could be said about any combo for any danage ult other classes have. Like stamina and DBoS, used in a combo at the right time against light armor is a WRAP. No chance at defending.

Plus 80% of the DPS mag toons out there that use soul assault arent maximized for tooltip damage and will be lucky to get 75-80k on it. Which isnt much considering the channeltime and the way its decreased in cyrodil (which seems to be much more decrease than other skills). My 1vX build barely gets 65k tooltip, and is accually a damage loss when it would be better to keep spamming puncturing sweeps. It requires a proper setup and combo to be effective...which is balanced in my opinion...after all, it is an ultimate...stop complaining about things that kill you. You ever been hit by a stamblade fully optimized for ganking and damage with turret? FML thats a wrap for me more often than not...but i dont cry, hes build his stamblade for that and me crying about would just be nonsense.

L2P

Actually 92k buffed is pretty low, especially with that gear. It's possible to go up to 120k+ buffed tooltip with Soul Assault.

Anyway, considering half the population are running meta S&B and/or defensive sets like Brass or Impregnable on their medium armor characters, it's hardly surprising that they're able to survive.

Try hitting a non-tank build with it and watch what happens. Either their health or their stam pool disappears (sometimes both). Still, non-tank builds have problems with all undodgeable abilities (here's an example of the bull[snip] they have to endure), so singling out Soul Assault isn't really the solution.

92k is not a low tooltip on SA, regardless of the extremes that @Waffennacht could get to, not sure how he got there and what buffs he had. My friends nb was over 110k, but that was stealthed, which breaks immediately and doesn't last the whole channel.

By being awesome lol. I'll let you in on a secret, it's more efficient to raise spell damage over magicka

Edit: self buffed, no weird keep taking over keep thing buffs, no allies, no Cyrodiil buffs

DDuke · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

I has a magplar build for pvp...full divines, soulshine, warmaiden, slimecraw 1h 1m 5L. Absolutely zero *** given for defense. 92k buffed tooltip. In that build running soul assault, i still get medium armor, non-nightblades counter a purifying light, javelin, soul assault combo. The only time anything dies from that combo, hes either:
A- a really good player whos simply caught off guard, possibly taking damage from another player.
B- a lower CP player who cannot counter it due to experience or defensive CP.

Lets get real, the way everyones talking about this skill, you think that that combo would be the most OP thing in the game. So why is it that these players are able to counter it? Why do medium armor users still counter it if its supposedly broken op?

If i have given EVERY ounce of potential easy uptime of buffs and offebse to my toon, how come killing with soul assault is still mostly done against only low skill players?

Maybe the skill isnt as op as you guys think? In order for me to get a kill with the above combo on a good player, i have to do some softening blows, get him down a little bit. Only then does the skill do what its supposed to. The same could be said about any combo for any danage ult other classes have. Like stamina and DBoS, used in a combo at the right time against light armor is a WRAP. No chance at defending.

Plus 80% of the DPS mag toons out there that use soul assault arent maximized for tooltip damage and will be lucky to get 75-80k on it. Which isnt much considering the channeltime and the way its decreased in cyrodil (which seems to be much more decrease than other skills). My 1vX build barely gets 65k tooltip, and is accually a damage loss when it would be better to keep spamming puncturing sweeps. It requires a proper setup and combo to be effective...which is balanced in my opinion...after all, it is an ultimate...stop complaining about things that kill you. You ever been hit by a stamblade fully optimized for ganking and damage with turret? FML thats a wrap for me more often than not...but i dont cry, hes build his stamblade for that and me crying about would just be nonsense.

L2P

Actually 92k buffed is pretty low, especially with that gear. It's possible to go up to 120k+ buffed tooltip with Soul Assault.

Anyway, considering half the population are running meta S&B and/or defensive sets like Brass or Impregnable on their medium armor characters, it's hardly surprising that they're able to survive.

Try hitting a non-tank build with it and watch what happens. Either their health or their stam pool disappears (sometimes both). Still, non-tank builds have problems with all undodgeable abilities (here's an example of the bull[snip] they have to endure), so singling out Soul Assault isn't really the solution.

92k is not a low tooltip on SA, regardless of the extremes that @Waffennacht could get to, not sure how he got there and what buffs he had. My friends nb was over 110k, but that was stealthed, which breaks immediately and doesn't last the whole channel.

Well, just a quick look at ESO Build Editor & I managed to get 127 913 tooltip with self buffs only for Magicka Warden, and that isn't even the maximum you can get because I put CPs into direct dmg, crit/pen etc too.

With Cyrodiil buffs it'd be a 137 399 tooltip.

2x Kena 5x Alchemist 3x Willpower 1x Asylum if you're curious.

Waffennacht · November 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

I has a magplar build for pvp...full divines, soulshine, warmaiden, slimecraw 1h 1m 5L. Absolutely zero *** given for defense. 92k buffed tooltip. In that build running soul assault, i still get medium armor, non-nightblades counter a purifying light, javelin, soul assault combo. The only time anything dies from that combo, hes either:
A- a really good player whos simply caught off guard, possibly taking damage from another player.
B- a lower CP player who cannot counter it due to experience or defensive CP.

Lets get real, the way everyones talking about this skill, you think that that combo would be the most OP thing in the game. So why is it that these players are able to counter it? Why do medium armor users still counter it if its supposedly broken op?

If i have given EVERY ounce of potential easy uptime of buffs and offebse to my toon, how come killing with soul assault is still mostly done against only low skill players?

Maybe the skill isnt as op as you guys think? In order for me to get a kill with the above combo on a good player, i have to do some softening blows, get him down a little bit. Only then does the skill do what its supposed to. The same could be said about any combo for any danage ult other classes have. Like stamina and DBoS, used in a combo at the right time against light armor is a WRAP. No chance at defending.

Plus 80% of the DPS mag toons out there that use soul assault arent maximized for tooltip damage and will be lucky to get 75-80k on it. Which isnt much considering the channeltime and the way its decreased in cyrodil (which seems to be much more decrease than other skills). My 1vX build barely gets 65k tooltip, and is accually a damage loss when it would be better to keep spamming puncturing sweeps. It requires a proper setup and combo to be effective...which is balanced in my opinion...after all, it is an ultimate...stop complaining about things that kill you. You ever been hit by a stamblade fully optimized for ganking and damage with turret? FML thats a wrap for me more often than not...but i dont cry, hes build his stamblade for that and me crying about would just be nonsense.

L2P

Actually 92k buffed is pretty low, especially with that gear. It's possible to go up to 120k+ buffed tooltip with Soul Assault.

Anyway, considering half the population are running meta S&B and/or defensive sets like Brass or Impregnable on their medium armor characters, it's hardly surprising that they're able to survive.

Try hitting a non-tank build with it and watch what happens. Either their health or their stam pool disappears (sometimes both). Still, non-tank builds have problems with all undodgeable abilities (here's an example of the bull[snip] they have to endure), so singling out Soul Assault isn't really the solution.

92k is not a low tooltip on SA, regardless of the extremes that @Waffennacht could get to, not sure how he got there and what buffs he had. My friends nb was over 110k, but that was stealthed, which breaks immediately and doesn't last the whole channel.

Well, just a quick look at ESO Build Editor & I managed to get 127 913 tooltip with self buffs only for Magicka Warden, and that isn't even the maximum you can get because I put CPs into direct dmg, crit/pen etc too.

With Cyrodiil buffs it'd be a 137 399 tooltip.

2x Kena 5x Alchemist 3x Willpower 1x Asylum if you're curious.

Good point, I haven't checked to see what I can do with the additional CPs

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

I has a magplar build for pvp...full divines, soulshine, warmaiden, slimecraw 1h 1m 5L. Absolutely zero *** given for defense. 92k buffed tooltip. In that build running soul assault, i still get medium armor, non-nightblades counter a purifying light, javelin, soul assault combo. The only time anything dies from that combo, hes either:
A- a really good player whos simply caught off guard, possibly taking damage from another player.
B- a lower CP player who cannot counter it due to experience or defensive CP.

Lets get real, the way everyones talking about this skill, you think that that combo would be the most OP thing in the game. So why is it that these players are able to counter it? Why do medium armor users still counter it if its supposedly broken op?

If i have given EVERY ounce of potential easy uptime of buffs and offebse to my toon, how come killing with soul assault is still mostly done against only low skill players?

Maybe the skill isnt as op as you guys think? In order for me to get a kill with the above combo on a good player, i have to do some softening blows, get him down a little bit. Only then does the skill do what its supposed to. The same could be said about any combo for any danage ult other classes have. Like stamina and DBoS, used in a combo at the right time against light armor is a WRAP. No chance at defending.

Plus 80% of the DPS mag toons out there that use soul assault arent maximized for tooltip damage and will be lucky to get 75-80k on it. Which isnt much considering the channeltime and the way its decreased in cyrodil (which seems to be much more decrease than other skills). My 1vX build barely gets 65k tooltip, and is accually a damage loss when it would be better to keep spamming puncturing sweeps. It requires a proper setup and combo to be effective...which is balanced in my opinion...after all, it is an ultimate...stop complaining about things that kill you. You ever been hit by a stamblade fully optimized for ganking and damage with turret? FML thats a wrap for me more often than not...but i dont cry, hes build his stamblade for that and me crying about would just be nonsense.

L2P

Actually 92k buffed is pretty low, especially with that gear. It's possible to go up to 120k+ buffed tooltip with Soul Assault.

Anyway, considering half the population are running meta S&B and/or defensive sets like Brass or Impregnable on their medium armor characters, it's hardly surprising that they're able to survive.

Try hitting a non-tank build with it and watch what happens. Either their health or their stam pool disappears (sometimes both). Still, non-tank builds have problems with all undodgeable abilities (here's an example of the bull[snip] they have to endure), so singling out Soul Assault isn't really the solution.

92k is not a low tooltip on SA, regardless of the extremes that @Waffennacht could get to, not sure how he got there and what buffs he had. My friends nb was over 110k, but that was stealthed, which breaks immediately and doesn't last the whole channel.

Well, just a quick look at ESO Build Editor & I managed to get 127 913 tooltip with self buffs only for Magicka Warden, and that isn't even the maximum you can get because I put CPs into direct dmg, crit/pen etc too.

With Cyrodiil buffs it'd be a 137 399 tooltip.

2x Kena 5x Alchemist 3x Willpower 1x Asylum if you're curious.

Im not saying its impossible, but that is not a common build at all. What would that do damage wise against 2.5k crit resistance and 20k spell (easily achievable stats on medium).

Just curious @DDuke what can you get the bow ultimate and rend get up to?

Waffennacht · November 2017

@Brutusmax1mus I can tell you exactly what it'll do. 127,913/3.5 = (we're just gonna round a bit) 36,550 per sec.

Bspirit makes it 18,275 per sec

20k resistance (assuming no debuffs) is 30% mitigation so 12,780 per sec

Assuming no light armor penetration, no crit, no concussion etc

Waffennacht · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Brutusmax1mus I can tell you exactly what it'll do. 127,913/3.5 = (we're just gonna round a bit) 36,550 per sec.

Bspirit makes it 18,275 per sec

20k resistance (assuming no debuffs) is 30% mitigation so 12,780 per sec

Assuming no light armor penetration, no crit, no concussion etc

Now if you block and had SnB that becomes around 3,195 per sec.

6,390 per sec block on any staff but frost, DW, Bow, or 2H

Waffennacht · November 2017

BTW highest possible armor set up I know:

x2 Kena
x4 alchemist
x4 BSW
x2 Torug

Back bar: x5 alchemist, x5 BSW

DDuke · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

I has a magplar build for pvp...full divines, soulshine, warmaiden, slimecraw 1h 1m 5L. Absolutely zero *** given for defense. 92k buffed tooltip. In that build running soul assault, i still get medium armor, non-nightblades counter a purifying light, javelin, soul assault combo. The only time anything dies from that combo, hes either:
A- a really good player whos simply caught off guard, possibly taking damage from another player.
B- a lower CP player who cannot counter it due to experience or defensive CP.

Lets get real, the way everyones talking about this skill, you think that that combo would be the most OP thing in the game. So why is it that these players are able to counter it? Why do medium armor users still counter it if its supposedly broken op?

If i have given EVERY ounce of potential easy uptime of buffs and offebse to my toon, how come killing with soul assault is still mostly done against only low skill players?

Maybe the skill isnt as op as you guys think? In order for me to get a kill with the above combo on a good player, i have to do some softening blows, get him down a little bit. Only then does the skill do what its supposed to. The same could be said about any combo for any danage ult other classes have. Like stamina and DBoS, used in a combo at the right time against light armor is a WRAP. No chance at defending.

Plus 80% of the DPS mag toons out there that use soul assault arent maximized for tooltip damage and will be lucky to get 75-80k on it. Which isnt much considering the channeltime and the way its decreased in cyrodil (which seems to be much more decrease than other skills). My 1vX build barely gets 65k tooltip, and is accually a damage loss when it would be better to keep spamming puncturing sweeps. It requires a proper setup and combo to be effective...which is balanced in my opinion...after all, it is an ultimate...stop complaining about things that kill you. You ever been hit by a stamblade fully optimized for ganking and damage with turret? FML thats a wrap for me more often than not...but i dont cry, hes build his stamblade for that and me crying about would just be nonsense.

L2P

Actually 92k buffed is pretty low, especially with that gear. It's possible to go up to 120k+ buffed tooltip with Soul Assault.

Anyway, considering half the population are running meta S&B and/or defensive sets like Brass or Impregnable on their medium armor characters, it's hardly surprising that they're able to survive.

Try hitting a non-tank build with it and watch what happens. Either their health or their stam pool disappears (sometimes both). Still, non-tank builds have problems with all undodgeable abilities (here's an example of the bull[snip] they have to endure), so singling out Soul Assault isn't really the solution.

92k is not a low tooltip on SA, regardless of the extremes that @Waffennacht could get to, not sure how he got there and what buffs he had. My friends nb was over 110k, but that was stealthed, which breaks immediately and doesn't last the whole channel.

Well, just a quick look at ESO Build Editor & I managed to get 127 913 tooltip with self buffs only for Magicka Warden, and that isn't even the maximum you can get because I put CPs into direct dmg, crit/pen etc too.

With Cyrodiil buffs it'd be a 137 399 tooltip.

2x Kena 5x Alchemist 3x Willpower 1x Asylum if you're curious.

Im not saying its impossible, but that is not a common build at all. What would that do damage wise against 2.5k crit resistance and 20k spell (easily achievable stats on medium).

Just curious @DDuke what can you get the bow ultimate and rend get up to?

I believe my stam sorc would get the best stats (Energized & Expert Mage passives) with Ballista:
I'm currently looking at 91 575/5s with self buffs only, though it's on off bar. On main bar it'd deal 94 749/5s

5 Marksman (yes, ESO Build Editor doesn't show the 8% from this set so I manually calculated it), 3x Agi, 2x Slimecraw & 1x Asylum

The other (interruptable & channeled) morph that's more comparable to Soul Assault, Toxic Barrage, would deal 91 249/4 seconds & 54 087/8s afterwards - though being poison damage it no longer benefits from Energized passive.

As for Rend (purgable/cloakable), that'd be 87 373 with Rend & 48 541/8s with Thrive in Chaos morph with a 5938 weapon dmg 36 627 stamina stam sorc build (Briar, Alchemist & Slimecraw).

Oh, also fyi: most high dmg medium builds are lucky to go over 12k spell resistance (or 18k fully buffed). You pretty much need to use a defensive set or S&B to go 20k+. Crit resistance with optimal no dmg shields CP allocation & 7x impen is 3k.

Waffennacht · November 2017

Rend is so absolutely horrid

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

I has a magplar build for pvp...full divines, soulshine, warmaiden, slimecraw 1h 1m 5L. Absolutely zero *** given for defense. 92k buffed tooltip. In that build running soul assault, i still get medium armor, non-nightblades counter a purifying light, javelin, soul assault combo. The only time anything dies from that combo, hes either:
A- a really good player whos simply caught off guard, possibly taking damage from another player.
B- a lower CP player who cannot counter it due to experience or defensive CP.

Lets get real, the way everyones talking about this skill, you think that that combo would be the most OP thing in the game. So why is it that these players are able to counter it? Why do medium armor users still counter it if its supposedly broken op?

If i have given EVERY ounce of potential easy uptime of buffs and offebse to my toon, how come killing with soul assault is still mostly done against only low skill players?

Maybe the skill isnt as op as you guys think? In order for me to get a kill with the above combo on a good player, i have to do some softening blows, get him down a little bit. Only then does the skill do what its supposed to. The same could be said about any combo for any danage ult other classes have. Like stamina and DBoS, used in a combo at the right time against light armor is a WRAP. No chance at defending.

Plus 80% of the DPS mag toons out there that use soul assault arent maximized for tooltip damage and will be lucky to get 75-80k on it. Which isnt much considering the channeltime and the way its decreased in cyrodil (which seems to be much more decrease than other skills). My 1vX build barely gets 65k tooltip, and is accually a damage loss when it would be better to keep spamming puncturing sweeps. It requires a proper setup and combo to be effective...which is balanced in my opinion...after all, it is an ultimate...stop complaining about things that kill you. You ever been hit by a stamblade fully optimized for ganking and damage with turret? FML thats a wrap for me more often than not...but i dont cry, hes build his stamblade for that and me crying about would just be nonsense.

L2P

Actually 92k buffed is pretty low, especially with that gear. It's possible to go up to 120k+ buffed tooltip with Soul Assault.

Anyway, considering half the population are running meta S&B and/or defensive sets like Brass or Impregnable on their medium armor characters, it's hardly surprising that they're able to survive.

Try hitting a non-tank build with it and watch what happens. Either their health or their stam pool disappears (sometimes both). Still, non-tank builds have problems with all undodgeable abilities (here's an example of the bull[snip] they have to endure), so singling out Soul Assault isn't really the solution.

92k is not a low tooltip on SA, regardless of the extremes that @Waffennacht could get to, not sure how he got there and what buffs he had. My friends nb was over 110k, but that was stealthed, which breaks immediately and doesn't last the whole channel.

Well, just a quick look at ESO Build Editor & I managed to get 127 913 tooltip with self buffs only for Magicka Warden, and that isn't even the maximum you can get because I put CPs into direct dmg, crit/pen etc too.

With Cyrodiil buffs it'd be a 137 399 tooltip.

2x Kena 5x Alchemist 3x Willpower 1x Asylum if you're curious.

Im not saying its impossible, but that is not a common build at all. What would that do damage wise against 2.5k crit resistance and 20k spell (easily achievable stats on medium).

Just curious @DDuke what can you get the bow ultimate and rend get up to?

I believe my stam sorc would get the best stats (Energized & Expert Mage passives) with Ballista:
I'm currently looking at 91 575/5s with self buffs only, though it's on off bar. On main bar it'd deal 94 749/5s

5 Marksman (yes, ESO Build Editor doesn't show the 8% from this set so I manually calculated it), 3x Agi, 2x Slimecraw & 1x Asylum

The other (interruptable & channeled) morph that's more comparable to Soul Assault, Toxic Barrage, would deal 91 249/4 seconds & 54 087/8s afterwards - though being poison damage it no longer benefits from Energized passive.

As for Rend (purgable/cloakable), that'd be 87 373 with Rend & 48 541/8s with Thrive in Chaos morph with a 5938 weapon dmg 36 627 stamina stam sorc build (Briar, Alchemist & Slimecraw).

Oh, also fyi: most high dmg medium builds are lucky to go over 12k spell resistance (or 18k fully buffed). You pretty much need to use a defensive set or S&B to go 20k+. Crit resistance with optimal no dmg shields CP allocation & 7x impen is 3k.

Awesome thanks for that @DDuke. Would something like alchemist back bar, truth ( for robust rings)front bar with kena and masters bow with psn inject over the target not produce better results than marksman?

DDuke · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

I has a magplar build for pvp...full divines, soulshine, warmaiden, slimecraw 1h 1m 5L. Absolutely zero *** given for defense. 92k buffed tooltip. In that build running soul assault, i still get medium armor, non-nightblades counter a purifying light, javelin, soul assault combo. The only time anything dies from that combo, hes either:
A- a really good player whos simply caught off guard, possibly taking damage from another player.
B- a lower CP player who cannot counter it due to experience or defensive CP.

Lets get real, the way everyones talking about this skill, you think that that combo would be the most OP thing in the game. So why is it that these players are able to counter it? Why do medium armor users still counter it if its supposedly broken op?

If i have given EVERY ounce of potential easy uptime of buffs and offebse to my toon, how come killing with soul assault is still mostly done against only low skill players?

Maybe the skill isnt as op as you guys think? In order for me to get a kill with the above combo on a good player, i have to do some softening blows, get him down a little bit. Only then does the skill do what its supposed to. The same could be said about any combo for any danage ult other classes have. Like stamina and DBoS, used in a combo at the right time against light armor is a WRAP. No chance at defending.

Plus 80% of the DPS mag toons out there that use soul assault arent maximized for tooltip damage and will be lucky to get 75-80k on it. Which isnt much considering the channeltime and the way its decreased in cyrodil (which seems to be much more decrease than other skills). My 1vX build barely gets 65k tooltip, and is accually a damage loss when it would be better to keep spamming puncturing sweeps. It requires a proper setup and combo to be effective...which is balanced in my opinion...after all, it is an ultimate...stop complaining about things that kill you. You ever been hit by a stamblade fully optimized for ganking and damage with turret? FML thats a wrap for me more often than not...but i dont cry, hes build his stamblade for that and me crying about would just be nonsense.

L2P

Actually 92k buffed is pretty low, especially with that gear. It's possible to go up to 120k+ buffed tooltip with Soul Assault.

Anyway, considering half the population are running meta S&B and/or defensive sets like Brass or Impregnable on their medium armor characters, it's hardly surprising that they're able to survive.

Try hitting a non-tank build with it and watch what happens. Either their health or their stam pool disappears (sometimes both). Still, non-tank builds have problems with all undodgeable abilities (here's an example of the bull[snip] they have to endure), so singling out Soul Assault isn't really the solution.

92k is not a low tooltip on SA, regardless of the extremes that @Waffennacht could get to, not sure how he got there and what buffs he had. My friends nb was over 110k, but that was stealthed, which breaks immediately and doesn't last the whole channel.

Well, just a quick look at ESO Build Editor & I managed to get 127 913 tooltip with self buffs only for Magicka Warden, and that isn't even the maximum you can get because I put CPs into direct dmg, crit/pen etc too.

With Cyrodiil buffs it'd be a 137 399 tooltip.

2x Kena 5x Alchemist 3x Willpower 1x Asylum if you're curious.

Im not saying its impossible, but that is not a common build at all. What would that do damage wise against 2.5k crit resistance and 20k spell (easily achievable stats on medium).

Just curious @DDuke what can you get the bow ultimate and rend get up to?

I believe my stam sorc would get the best stats (Energized & Expert Mage passives) with Ballista:
I'm currently looking at 91 575/5s with self buffs only, though it's on off bar. On main bar it'd deal 94 749/5s

5 Marksman (yes, ESO Build Editor doesn't show the 8% from this set so I manually calculated it), 3x Agi, 2x Slimecraw & 1x Asylum

The other (interruptable & channeled) morph that's more comparable to Soul Assault, Toxic Barrage, would deal 91 249/4 seconds & 54 087/8s afterwards - though being poison damage it no longer benefits from Energized passive.

As for Rend (purgable/cloakable), that'd be 87 373 with Rend & 48 541/8s with Thrive in Chaos morph with a 5938 weapon dmg 36 627 stamina stam sorc build (Briar, Alchemist & Slimecraw).

Oh, also fyi: most high dmg medium builds are lucky to go over 12k spell resistance (or 18k fully buffed). You pretty much need to use a defensive set or S&B to go 20k+. Crit resistance with optimal no dmg shields CP allocation & 7x impen is 3k.

Awesome thanks for that @DDuke. Would something like alchemist back bar, truth ( for robust rings)front bar with kena and masters bow with psn inject over the target not produce better results than marksman?

Ballista tooltip after replacing Marksman with Alchemist: 94 749/5s->98 650/5s.

Yeah, you get a little bit more damage for those 15 seconds, but it's not worth it considering the hit to sustain.

My 5x Marksman 3x Agi 2x Slimecraw 1x Asylum stam sorc setup also runs the Master's Bow on off bar. Really high potential build btw, need to test some things with it.

Also, there's no way Truth gets you more damage than Slimecraw+Agility on a stam sorc that doesn't have access to Minor Berserk. On stamblade/warden it'd be worth considering, but if you're going for max damage I'm quite certain going 5x Morag Tong & picking Acid Spray/Lethal Arrow morphs is the way to go then.

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Rend is so absolutely horrid

I've enjoyed the constant pressure and healing on my stam sorc in duels. I'm using 5 red mountain 3 agility and asylum dw, masters bow blood spawn. 20 to 24 seconds of an ultimate that heals is nice against everyone but Templars. I don't know anyone that runs purge in duels. Cloaking stam sorcs isn't an easy task either.

Buff up and hurricane, cast blade cloak, this is your easy way to know when rends about to end, then rend, rending slash, cast whirlwind right as blade cloak is ending. If blood spawn procs twice, you'll be at about 100 ultimate, rend is only about 8 second seconds away again. You can run snb instead of bow for defile and a stamina based cc, haven't tried it though. I just like the poison inject execute that also layers my weapon attacks so RM can proc nearly on cooldown from 4 sources even if I'm stunned or recovering.

It's been fun doing something different with console down time. I don't normally run stam sorcs in medium either. I'm going to make one of those ridiculous soul assault and ballista builds too and fight some friends..

Waffennacht · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Rend is so absolutely horrid

I've enjoyed the constant pressure and healing on my stam sorc in duels. I'm using 5 red mountain 3 agility and asylum dw, masters bow blood spawn. 20 to 24 seconds of an ultimate that heals is nice against everyone but Templars. I don't know anyone that runs purge in duels. Cloaking stam sorcs isn't an easy task either.

Buff up and hurricane, cast blade cloak, this is your easy way to know when rends about to end, then rend, rending slash, cast whirlwind right as blade cloak is ending. If blood spawn procs twice, you'll be at about 100 ultimate, rend is only about 8 second seconds away again. You can run snb instead of bow for defile and a stamina based cc, haven't tried it though. I just like the poison inject execute that also layers my weapon attacks so RM can proc nearly on cooldown from 4 sources even if I'm stunned or recovering.

It's been fun doing something different with console down time. I don't normally run stam sorcs in medium either. I'm going to make one of those ridiculous soul assault and ballista builds too and fight some friends..

R u telling me people don't just side step the slowest ult in game? Lol. I'm glad it works for you though

Toast_STS · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

BTW highest possible armor set up I know:

x2 Kena
x4 alchemist
x4 BSW
x2 Torug

Back bar: x5 alchemist, x5 BSW

Can you drop the torugs for maelstrom cruel flurry? It's not practical but 2000 spell damage would be better than 129.

Waffennacht · November 2017

Toast_STS wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

BTW highest possible armor set up I know:

x2 Kena
x4 alchemist
x4 BSW
x2 Torug

Back bar: x5 alchemist, x5 BSW

Can you drop the torugs for maelstrom cruel flurry? It's not practical but 2000 spell damage would be better than 129.

You're absolutely right, I suppose you could, just for insane numbers! I'm so tempted to do that now

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Rend is so absolutely horrid

I've enjoyed the constant pressure and healing on my stam sorc in duels. I'm using 5 red mountain 3 agility and asylum dw, masters bow blood spawn. 20 to 24 seconds of an ultimate that heals is nice against everyone but Templars. I don't know anyone that runs purge in duels. Cloaking stam sorcs isn't an easy task either.

Buff up and hurricane, cast blade cloak, this is your easy way to know when rends about to end, then rend, rending slash, cast whirlwind right as blade cloak is ending. If blood spawn procs twice, you'll be at about 100 ultimate, rend is only about 8 second seconds away again. You can run snb instead of bow for defile and a stamina based cc, haven't tried it though. I just like the poison inject execute that also layers my weapon attacks so RM can proc nearly on cooldown from 4 sources even if I'm stunned or recovering.

It's been fun doing something different with console down time. I don't normally run stam sorcs in medium either. I'm going to make one of those ridiculous soul assault and ballista builds too and fight some friends..

R u telling me people don't just side step the slowest ult in game? Lol. I'm glad it works for you though

Side step? I treat it just like jabs. Do you have a hard time landing it? I didn't miss any last night i don't think. All this was based off duels for about an hour that were against other non meta builds.

I really only use this character for vma, I'm just really really bored. Anyway, you can get some good self healing from surge, rend, bloodthirst and vigor.

I'll just say the build did better than i thought it would. Psn inject, rend, slashes, blade cloak, hurricane, trap beast all ticking on you while red mountain hits isn't all that bad really. Just takes a lot of effort to get rolling.

Waffennacht · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Rend is so absolutely horrid

I've enjoyed the constant pressure and healing on my stam sorc in duels. I'm using 5 red mountain 3 agility and asylum dw, masters bow blood spawn. 20 to 24 seconds of an ultimate that heals is nice against everyone but Templars. I don't know anyone that runs purge in duels. Cloaking stam sorcs isn't an easy task either.

Buff up and hurricane, cast blade cloak, this is your easy way to know when rends about to end, then rend, rending slash, cast whirlwind right as blade cloak is ending. If blood spawn procs twice, you'll be at about 100 ultimate, rend is only about 8 second seconds away again. You can run snb instead of bow for defile and a stamina based cc, haven't tried it though. I just like the poison inject execute that also layers my weapon attacks so RM can proc nearly on cooldown from 4 sources even if I'm stunned or recovering.

It's been fun doing something different with console down time. I don't normally run stam sorcs in medium either. I'm going to make one of those ridiculous soul assault and ballista builds too and fight some friends..

R u telling me people don't just side step the slowest ult in game? Lol. I'm glad it works for you though

Side step? I treat it just like jabs. Do you have a hard time landing it? I didn't miss any last night i don't think. All this was based off duels for about an hour that were against other non meta builds.

I really only use this character for vma, I'm just really really bored. Anyway, you can get some good self healing from surge, rend, bloodthirst and vigor.

I'll just say the build did better than i thought it would. Psn inject, rend, slashes, blade cloak, hurricane, trap beast all ticking on you while red mountain hits isn't all that bad really. Just takes a lot of effort to get rolling.

I was so excited to run it when it first dropped, then I used it... Then I never used it again

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Rend is so absolutely horrid

I've enjoyed the constant pressure and healing on my stam sorc in duels. I'm using 5 red mountain 3 agility and asylum dw, masters bow blood spawn. 20 to 24 seconds of an ultimate that heals is nice against everyone but Templars. I don't know anyone that runs purge in duels. Cloaking stam sorcs isn't an easy task either.

Buff up and hurricane, cast blade cloak, this is your easy way to know when rends about to end, then rend, rending slash, cast whirlwind right as blade cloak is ending. If blood spawn procs twice, you'll be at about 100 ultimate, rend is only about 8 second seconds away again. You can run snb instead of bow for defile and a stamina based cc, haven't tried it though. I just like the poison inject execute that also layers my weapon attacks so RM can proc nearly on cooldown from 4 sources even if I'm stunned or recovering.

It's been fun doing something different with console down time. I don't normally run stam sorcs in medium either. I'm going to make one of those ridiculous soul assault and ballista builds too and fight some friends..

R u telling me people don't just side step the slowest ult in game? Lol. I'm glad it works for you though

Side step? I treat it just like jabs. Do you have a hard time landing it? I didn't miss any last night i don't think. All this was based off duels for about an hour that were against other non meta builds.

I really only use this character for vma, I'm just really really bored. Anyway, you can get some good self healing from surge, rend, bloodthirst and vigor.

I'll just say the build did better than i thought it would. Psn inject, rend, slashes, blade cloak, hurricane, trap beast all ticking on you while red mountain hits isn't all that bad really. Just takes a lot of effort to get rolling.

I was so excited to run it when it first dropped, then I used it... Then I never used it again

Ive never used it in PvP till last night, i anyways use it in vma which is what this guy is for really. Probably going to try the asylum bow tomorrow and see what fun I can have. Less than a week till cyros playable again for me. Sucks yall have to wait another week.

I should have time to try that rediculous soul assault gank too.

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

But those builds will stay in the grand topal hideaway...

technohic · November 2017

I was fighting some dude tonight in Cyrodiil and eventually a guy on my side came and got in on the fight with this DK. At that point, I was just kind of half assing it and I accidentally hit my soul assault. Looked like he actually tried to come in for a bash but he was snared so much, he didn't quite make it. It did feel kind of dumb. I think I might take it off and put meteor on there in stead or something. I was wanting magicka damage but I'm just not a fan.

Sharee · November 2017

pieratsos wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster

I don't think you really understand what the problem is.

It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.

If a build allows you to face anything without having to make compromises and without having to change playstyles and adapting to whatever you are fighting, then *that* would be a problem, in my opinion.

And you aren't forced to adapt. You can also choose to simply accept that a build which goes balls-out offense without taking defensive measures is going to have vulnerabilities.

You completely missed the point. Yes all builds should have vulnerabilities and make sacrifices so they can adapt. Its not about facing anything without compromises. That was never the point. The point is to actually have a way to face something through compromises and sacrifices that doesnt involve changing your entire playstyle. As the title says, it needs counterplay. Sorry but saying that the counter is to reroll is completely idiotic.

Actually that is very much the point.

What if my playstyle is "put every single thing available to me into offense, zero defense". How do i then "face something through compromises and sacrifices" without changing my entire playstyle? When my entire playstyle is built around not making compromises?

Because that is what i saw throughout the debate:

1, guy A says he has no defense against SA
2, guy B says mistform is a perfectly good defense
3, guy A says "but i dont have enough magicka to afford mistform AND all my utilities!"

Well, duh. Increase your magicka then? What? It will lower your damage output because you will have to sacrifice max stamina? That would be the compromise/sacrifice we were talking about. And no, it does not change your entire playstyle, not unless your entire playstyle is "minmax damage without compromises". Other than that, you can continue playing the same way you always did.

The difference will be that you won't get some kills that you would with maxed stamina. On the other hand, you will survive some fights against SA(among other things) that you wouldn't otherwise. Balance. Sacrifice. Compromises.

Ultimate_Overlord · November 2017

@Sharee Apart from shieldbreaker vs magicka sorc, there is no equivalent to soul assault vs medium armor for light and heavy builds. If your light/heavy build is good (even if its built as a glass cannon), it can survive any combination of skills without having to change your build if you play properly. By your logic, medium builds and magicka sorcs facing shieldbreaker are the only balanced builds in the game.

Sharee · November 2017

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

@Sharee Apart from shieldbreaker vs magicka sorc, there is no equivalent to soul assault vs medium armor for light and heavy builds. If your light/heavy build is good (even if its built as a glass cannon), it can survive any combination of skills without having to change your build if you play properly. By your logic, medium builds and magicka sorcs facing shieldbreaker are the only balanced builds in the game.

Allow me to quote myself here:
"If a build allows you to face anything without having to make compromises and without having to change playstyles and adapting to whatever you are fighting, then *that* would be a problem, in my opinion."

You say the only equivalent to soul assault vs medium is shieldbreaker vs magicka sorc.
I say we need more of these counters, not less.

Ultimate_Overlord · November 2017

@Sharee Those arent counters, those are build killers. They do not promote fun or skillful pvp. A person playing optimally and using those sets/skills to counter someone will kill them every time, and with how these sets/skills work, it is very easy to use them optimally or close to that. People generally dont like rock-paper-scissors types of games, and these abilities promote that exact kind of gameplay, not only that, they bring that gameplay to a game that did not have that before. The game used to work in such a way, that it took an equal or very close to equal amount of player skill to be on the delivering and recieving end of various abilities, now there are skills that dont follow those rules, which is why people are getting disappointed and frustrated, and rightfully so.

DDuke · November 2017

Sharee wrote: »

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

@Sharee Apart from shieldbreaker vs magicka sorc, there is no equivalent to soul assault vs medium armor for light and heavy builds. If your light/heavy build is good (even if its built as a glass cannon), it can survive any combination of skills without having to change your build if you play properly. By your logic, medium builds and magicka sorcs facing shieldbreaker are the only balanced builds in the game.

Allow me to quote myself here:
"If a build allows you to face anything without having to make compromises and without having to change playstyles and adapting to whatever you are fighting, then *that* would be a problem, in my opinion."

You say the only equivalent to soul assault vs medium is shieldbreaker vs magicka sorc.
I say we need more of these counters, not less.

Oh, there are more counters to medium high dmg builds... a lot more.

Meteor, Jabs/Sweeps, Birds, DK DoTs, Power Lash (undodgeable part of DK Whip), DBOS, Curse, Purifying Light, Unstable Core, Shalks, Jbeam, Leap, Soul Harvest etc etc etc

All of these ignore dodge roll entirely & [snip] on your heals (no matter how much weapon dmg/stam & impen you have) by outdamaging them.

If anyone wonders why most people use S&B and/or defensive sets on medium builds these days, that's why.

Sharee · November 2017

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

@Sharee Those arent counters, those are build killers. They do not promote fun or skillful pvp. A person playing optimally and using those sets/skills to counter someone will kill them every time..

A "build killer" against you can only exist if you build your character with a vulnerability. That is a conscious decision on your part, and if such a "build killer" kills you, you have noone to blame but yourself.

You made the decision to minmax your stamina/magicka for maximum damage output so you don't have enough magicka to use mistform. There's nothing wrong with that, you just have to accept the bad with the good.

What you are doing here right now is making your character into a rock on purpose so you can kill scissors, and then complaining that paper exists.