Soul Assault needs counterplay

TheDoomsdayMonster · November 2017

KingJ wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Since Stamina builds can use Magicka 100% as utility at no risk (unlike Magicka builds with Stamina), Mist Form shines for you all...

Instead of being sarcastic, how about trying it instead of being narrow minded about it...

It might surprise you...

Your idea is just bad.

Mist form cuts off magicka regen. It guts your magicka sustain. So you can start swapping gear sets to have a bigger magicka pool etc to attempt to sustain liberal use of mist form. And then what? You've basically sacrificed almost everything just to be able to reliably survive 1 specific ultimate. Why even bother playing stamina anymore then (and especially medium armour)?

You're assuming stamina builds don't "need" their magicka pools. Try playing a stamblade that can't cloak regularly or fear when CC immunity is over, a stamina DK that can't pop Igneous Shield on demand for Major Mending, a stamplar that can't cleanse reliably or a stamina warden that can't keep up his defensive buffs.

@Valencer I mentioned that twice and he ignored it and just said you have to change your build he has no clue what he is talking about and just talking about his a$$.

You are still stuck in your stale, ignorant, mindset that there is only one way to character build...

And I know exactly what I'm talking about; you are just too narrow minded to see it...

Says the person who thought sweeps were dodgeable.

I have a build focused on high magic recovery and max magic for a stam build and I can't effectively make use of Elusive mist.If I can't no stam build can.

Sure you could; it's a 'oh crap' ability; used to get away from and/survive a big attack and so it won't be something that you'd use in rapid succession...

Actually you can't which I already explained to you twice now.To realistically use Mist I have to pretty much not use any of my other magic utilities on any stam build that's unrealistic to ask.What you is asking me on my stamblade is not to use cloak to get a decent heal or to use fear to CC someone.I'm not running Blood spawn for that ult gen so while I still have a good uptime on incap I can't use that as a primary cc since its one of the few dodgeable ultimates and if blocked doesn't CC.

Nothing you are saying is feasible and actually works in practice even If I do use Mist which stops magic regen I won't be able to use it again because I will need to CC the target to get some breathing room and heal.If I'm facing a Magdk I have to deal with the 25% extra fire damage and if I cloak and it breaks I just wasted magica and lower my chances of using another Mist form when needed.

Look dude, you can't have it all...

Your initial complaint was Soul Assault and how the Stamina drain was too great on your Stamina pool...

I gave you a full solution for it, and now you cry about your Magicka pool...lol.

Dude, learn to play...adapt or die...stop crying and fix your build instead of screaming to the Devs for nerfs.

Edit: And btw, dont cry about a 25% fire weakness and Fighters Guild vulnerability ...us Magicka users have successfully dealt with it for a long time.

You can too...

I don't want it all I want reasonable counterplay sorry if that's to much to ask for so people can counter your cheese.

No you gave a bad solution that no stam build can realistically use.

Says the dude with the worst build anyone every heard of.Yea my build is bad when I play the only stam class that can actually counter this broken mess.Has high max stam magic and magic recovery and 4k weapon damage.Sorry If I care about the game having a healthy balance.

You know magic classes actually have ways to counter the 25% damage magsorc,magwarden and magblade runs shield which mitigates the extra damage.Magplar can purge the dots and magplar and magdk have instant burst heals.Stam primary have HOTS.Again showing your lack of knowledge about stam builds i general.

Ok, I'm tired of proving you wrong...

Just stay as you are and keep crying for nerfs because your mind is too limited to adapt and consider other possibilities...

Oh, and btw, you say I have the worst build ever, but I'm not the one on here crying buckets of tears and literally begging the Devs to nerf something...

Just keep on begging for nerfs; keep the tears of sadness coming...ok?

DDuke · November 2017

@TheDoomsdayMonster

I don't think you really understand what the problem is.

It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.

Now, personally I do think it's more of a medium armor issue than Soul Assault specifically, but telling people to "adapt" doesn't really help - it just creates more meta tank builds and that's something nobody wants.

KingJ · November 2017

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Since Stamina builds can use Magicka 100% as utility at no risk (unlike Magicka builds with Stamina), Mist Form shines for you all...

Instead of being sarcastic, how about trying it instead of being narrow minded about it...

It might surprise you...

Your idea is just bad.

Mist form cuts off magicka regen. It guts your magicka sustain. So you can start swapping gear sets to have a bigger magicka pool etc to attempt to sustain liberal use of mist form. And then what? You've basically sacrificed almost everything just to be able to reliably survive 1 specific ultimate. Why even bother playing stamina anymore then (and especially medium armour)?

You're assuming stamina builds don't "need" their magicka pools. Try playing a stamblade that can't cloak regularly or fear when CC immunity is over, a stamina DK that can't pop Igneous Shield on demand for Major Mending, a stamplar that can't cleanse reliably or a stamina warden that can't keep up his defensive buffs.

@Valencer I mentioned that twice and he ignored it and just said you have to change your build he has no clue what he is talking about and just talking about his a$$.

You are still stuck in your stale, ignorant, mindset that there is only one way to character build...

And I know exactly what I'm talking about; you are just too narrow minded to see it...

Says the person who thought sweeps were dodgeable.

I have a build focused on high magic recovery and max magic for a stam build and I can't effectively make use of Elusive mist.If I can't no stam build can.

Sure you could; it's a 'oh crap' ability; used to get away from and/survive a big attack and so it won't be something that you'd use in rapid succession...

Actually you can't which I already explained to you twice now.To realistically use Mist I have to pretty much not use any of my other magic utilities on any stam build that's unrealistic to ask.What you is asking me on my stamblade is not to use cloak to get a decent heal or to use fear to CC someone.I'm not running Blood spawn for that ult gen so while I still have a good uptime on incap I can't use that as a primary cc since its one of the few dodgeable ultimates and if blocked doesn't CC.

Nothing you are saying is feasible and actually works in practice even If I do use Mist which stops magic regen I won't be able to use it again because I will need to CC the target to get some breathing room and heal.If I'm facing a Magdk I have to deal with the 25% extra fire damage and if I cloak and it breaks I just wasted magica and lower my chances of using another Mist form when needed.

Look dude, you can't have it all...

Your initial complaint was Soul Assault and how the Stamina drain was too great on your Stamina pool...

I gave you a full solution for it, and now you cry about your Magicka pool...lol.

Dude, learn to play...adapt or die...stop crying and fix your build instead of screaming to the Devs for nerfs.

Edit: And btw, dont cry about a 25% fire weakness and Fighters Guild vulnerability ...us Magicka users have successfully dealt with it for a long time.

You can too...

I don't want it all I want reasonable counterplay sorry if that's to much to ask for so people can counter your cheese.

No you gave a bad solution that no stam build can realistically use.

Says the dude with the worst build anyone every heard of.Yea my build is bad when I play the only stam class that can actually counter this broken mess.Has high max stam magic and magic recovery and 4k weapon damage.Sorry If I care about the game having a healthy balance.

You know magic classes actually have ways to counter the 25% damage magsorc,magwarden and magblade runs shield which mitigates the extra damage.Magplar can purge the dots and magplar and magdk have instant burst heals.Stam primary have HOTS.Again showing your lack of knowledge about stam builds i general.

Ok, I'm tired of proving you wrong...

Just stay as you are and keep crying for nerfs because your mind is too limited to adapt and consider other possibilities...

Oh, and btw, you say I have the worst build ever, but I'm not the one on here crying buckets of tears and literally begging the Devs to nerf something...

Just keep on begging for nerfs; keep the tears of sadness coming...ok?

You keep saying that but you haven't proved a single person wrong.

So asking for Zos to balance a skill by allowing it to be interruptable so is it can have counter play make you so upset is sad.Also its not the build that allow you to survive soul assault its the class git gud scrub and fix your horrible build.

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

DDuke wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster

I don't think you really understand what the problem is.

It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.

Now, personally I do think it's more of a medium armor issue than Soul Assault specifically, but telling people to "adapt" doesn't really help - it just creates more meta tank builds and that's something nobody wants.

Its not even that, its that you're upset it's strong vs the medium build you want to play. The whole game is based on using skills that force players to adapt. Do you complain about roots if you don't run a counter?

Its really only very strong when coupled with curse, SA, PotL, dots... but so is every burst damage ultimate.

However, if you were to change soul assault or impact medium armor, what would you suggest?

Casul · November 2017

I ran this on my stam warden just for s**** and giggles. Turns out it is stronger then I could have imagined. I would say the immunity is too much. Make it way to safe to cast and guarantee the damage ticks. I vote for making it bashable. This would put it more in line with the bow ultimate.

DDuke · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster

I don't think you really understand what the problem is.

It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.

Now, personally I do think it's more of a medium armor issue than Soul Assault specifically, but telling people to "adapt" doesn't really help - it just creates more meta tank builds and that's something nobody wants.

Its not even that, its that you're upset it's strong vs the medium build you want to play. The whole game is based on using skills that force players to adapt. Do you complain about roots if you don't run a counter?

Its really only very strong when coupled with curse, SA, PotL, dots... but so is every burst damage ultimate.

However, if you were to change soul assault or impact medium armor, what would you suggest?

Since when have magicka builds had to adapt to anything? Or permablock builds? It's only medium armor builds which need to "adapt" and become something else if they want to survive certain things.

As long as I can go full dmg on a magicka build and expect to survive pretty much everything and can't do the same with a stamina build, there's a problem.

As for what I'd change, well... up to +100% healing received while dodge rolling from one of the medium armor passives could be a good start, and would mean dodge rolling isn't completely useless as it'd allow Vigor to outheal atleast some things it currently doesn't on a dodge/evasion oriented build.

Waffennacht · November 2017

Wanna know what would actually fix everything? A Stam/wpn DMG based heal in the fighters tree

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Wanna know what would actually fix everything? A Stam/wpn DMG based heal in the fighters tree

Like a burst heal?

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster

I don't think you really understand what the problem is.

It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.

Now, personally I do think it's more of a medium armor issue than Soul Assault specifically, but telling people to "adapt" doesn't really help - it just creates more meta tank builds and that's something nobody wants.

Its not even that, its that you're upset it's strong vs the medium build you want to play. The whole game is based on using skills that force players to adapt. Do you complain about roots if you don't run a counter?

Its really only very strong when coupled with curse, SA, PotL, dots... but so is every burst damage ultimate.

However, if you were to change soul assault or impact medium armor, what would you suggest?

Since when have magicka builds had to adapt to anything? Or permablock builds? It's only medium armor builds which need to "adapt" and become something else if they want to survive certain things.

As long as I can go full dmg on a magicka build and expect to survive pretty much everything and can't do the same with a stamina build, there's a problem.

As for what I'd change, well... up to +100% healing received while dodge rolling from one of the medium armor passives could be a good start, and would mean dodge rolling isn't completely useless as it'd allow Vigor to outheal atleast some things it currently doesn't on a dodge/evasion oriented build.

So this is about medium armor passives and not soul assault?

KingJ · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Wanna know what would actually fix everything? A Stam/wpn DMG based heal in the fighters tree

Like a burst heal?

That would fix alot of issues imo but make heavy stam builds even stronger.

DDuke · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster

I don't think you really understand what the problem is.

It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.

Now, personally I do think it's more of a medium armor issue than Soul Assault specifically, but telling people to "adapt" doesn't really help - it just creates more meta tank builds and that's something nobody wants.

Its not even that, its that you're upset it's strong vs the medium build you want to play. The whole game is based on using skills that force players to adapt. Do you complain about roots if you don't run a counter?

Its really only very strong when coupled with curse, SA, PotL, dots... but so is every burst damage ultimate.

However, if you were to change soul assault or impact medium armor, what would you suggest?

Since when have magicka builds had to adapt to anything? Or permablock builds? It's only medium armor builds which need to "adapt" and become something else if they want to survive certain things.

As long as I can go full dmg on a magicka build and expect to survive pretty much everything and can't do the same with a stamina build, there's a problem.

As for what I'd change, well... up to +100% healing received while dodge rolling from one of the medium armor passives could be a good start, and would mean dodge rolling isn't completely useless as it'd allow Vigor to outheal atleast some things it currently doesn't on a dodge/evasion oriented build.

So this is about medium armor passives and not soul assault?

Sort of, Soul Assault is just a symptom of a larger problem.

While making it bashable could be a solution to complaints (and would to a certain degree make combat more skill based, which is never a bad thing), I'm afraid those complaints would just move on to Meteor or Leap combos next until the core issues with medium armor are addressed.

Baconlad · November 2017

I get that players want nerfs...
But may i introduce to you the most niche skill in the game and i want everyone ready to contemplate the horrid nerfs this skill has gotten...

Blazing shield. Its now useless for even 75k health templars...

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

It would have to be weak as hell to be balanced. There is a reason zos GAVE UP on stamina scaling shields. There is a reason spores does aoe healing, and if you think it's only to heal allies you're not thinking about the total picture.

As it stands 3 stacked vigors can make a group of ppl extremely strong. When my small groups get together and we are all on stam, we keep vigors up on cooldown. It's already strong in small scale. You can count on 4k hp per second and it's not hard to keep that up. A burst heal on top of that in addition to rally and dodge rolls and Stamina would be unkillable.

Balance is a lot more than 1v1. A dodge roll can NEGATE infinite attacks thrown at you (if they're able to be). You can literally ignore all the damage. A shield user would die to that. Yes, there are more undodgable skills than ever, but there are still tons that can be.

A strong, stackable hot like vigor with a spammable burst heal and dodge rolls would be so over powered. Y'all see that right?

What about if activating evasion and its morphs makes your dodge roll grant damage reduction as well.

TheDoomsdayMonster · November 2017

NM

Waffennacht · November 2017

@Brutusmax1mus 2 options, a build up like assassin's will, or just curve it accurately. Hell you could add it as a secondary function of that Hunter move , function a lot like will

Sharee · November 2017

DDuke wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster

I don't think you really understand what the problem is.

It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.

If a build allows you to face anything without having to make compromises and without having to change playstyles and adapting to whatever you are fighting, then *that* would be a problem, in my opinion.

And you aren't forced to adapt. You can also choose to simply accept that a build which goes balls-out offense without taking defensive measures is going to have vulnerabilities.

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

@Waffennacht Yes it would have to be conditional like rally to avoid spamming it. For sure.

Id love something like this for my stam toons. Would be a buff to heavy 7th, fury, ravager more than medium though

Waffennacht · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

@Waffennacht Yes it would have to be conditional like rally to avoid spamming it. For sure.

Id love something like this for my stam toons. Would be a buff to heavy 7th, fury, ravager more than medium though

I thought that too, which made me think of it scaling more to max Stam or wpn DMG? Cuz yeah heavy would love it more... What about it's tied to dodge roll?? @Brutusmax1mus what about that idea?

DDuke · November 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

It would have to be weak as hell to be balanced. There is a reason zos GAVE UP on stamina scaling shields. There is a reason spores does aoe healing, and if you think it's only to heal allies you're not thinking about the total picture.

As it stands 3 stacked vigors can make a group of ppl extremely strong. When my small groups get together and we are all on stam, we keep vigors up on cooldown. It's already strong in small scale. You can count on 4k hp per second and it's not hard to keep that up. A burst heal on top of that in addition to rally and dodge rolls and Stamina would be unkillable.

Balance is a lot more than 1v1. A dodge roll can NEGATE infinite attacks thrown at you (if they're able to be). You can literally ignore all the damage. A shield user would die to that. Yes, there are more undodgable skills than ever, but there are still tons that can be.

A strong, stackable hot like vigor with a spammable burst heal and dodge rolls would be so over powered. Y'all see that right?

What about if activating evasion and its morphs makes your dodge roll grant damage reduction as well.

Well, I never play in organized groups - but I've no problem killing the people who do with some heal debuffs & well timed burst.

Anything is strong in organized groups (shields too, since they also can be stacked), but it still seems like most of them consist of magicka builds with detonations, EotS etc.

As for there being "tons of dodgeable skills"... it doesn't take more than one person with undodgeable skills and relatively good damage to ruin your day.
For example, just one sorc Curse hit deals more damage than Vigor heals over 5 seconds (and that's with a 5k wpn dmg 36k stam build).
Let alone a DK with billion DoTs Leaping you, or a mag sorc spamming sweeps at you (just one hit of sweeps deals more dmg than Vigor outheals).

That's why I think having dodge roll boost healing received by 100% could be a good solution (perhaps only your own healing, so it doesn't affect those organized group settings).

Your Shuffle idea isn't half bad either.

DDuke · November 2017

Sharee wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster

I don't think you really understand what the problem is.

It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.

If a build allows you to face anything without having to make compromises and without having to change playstyles and adapting to whatever you are fighting, then *that* would be a problem, in my opinion.

And you aren't forced to adapt. You can also choose to simply accept that a build which goes balls-out offense without taking defensive measures is going to have vulnerabilities.

So magicka builds are a problem at the moment in your opinion?

Because I can build a sorc right now with 15k shields & 18k curse tooltip, or a mag DK with 4,6k spell dmg, 25k Leap tooltip and literally 10 times more healing (+healing ward if necessary) than any stam build and both of those builds can survive pretty much anything a medium armor stam build couldn't while still dealing same damage, if not more.

BroanBeast1215 · November 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

I get that players want nerfs...
But may i introduce to you the most niche skill in the game and i want everyone ready to contemplate the horrid nerfs this skill has gotten...

Blazing shield. Its now useless for even 75k health templars...

Also, give me back blinding flashes!

Sharee · November 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster

I don't think you really understand what the problem is.

It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.

If a build allows you to face anything without having to make compromises and without having to change playstyles and adapting to whatever you are fighting, then *that* would be a problem, in my opinion.

And you aren't forced to adapt. You can also choose to simply accept that a build which goes balls-out offense without taking defensive measures is going to have vulnerabilities.

So magicka builds are a problem at the moment in your opinion?

Because I can build a sorc right now with 15k shields & 18k curse tooltip, or a mag DK with 4,6k spell dmg, 25k Leap tooltip and literally 10 times more healing than any stam build and both of those builds can survive pretty much anything a medium armor stam build couldn't while still dealing same damage, if not more.

My comment was about stamina builds and soul assault. If you feel stamina builds are underperforming compared to magicka builds, that is a completely different topic.

DDuke · November 2017

Sharee wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster

I don't think you really understand what the problem is.

It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.

If a build allows you to face anything without having to make compromises and without having to change playstyles and adapting to whatever you are fighting, then *that* would be a problem, in my opinion.

And you aren't forced to adapt. You can also choose to simply accept that a build which goes balls-out offense without taking defensive measures is going to have vulnerabilities.

So magicka builds are a problem at the moment in your opinion?

Because I can build a sorc right now with 15k shields & 18k curse tooltip, or a mag DK with 4,6k spell dmg, 25k Leap tooltip and literally 10 times more healing than any stam build and both of those builds can survive pretty much anything a medium armor stam build couldn't while still dealing same damage, if not more.

My comment was about stamina builds and soul assault. If you feel stamina builds are underperforming compared to magicka builds, that is a completely different topic.

I suppose you're right, but the only reason this topic exists is because of non-S&B high dmg stamina builds underperforming when it comes to defensive capabilities.

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

@Waffennacht Yes it would have to be conditional like rally to avoid spamming it. For sure.

Id love something like this for my stam toons. Would be a buff to heavy 7th, fury, ravager more than medium though

I thought that too, which made me think of it scaling more to max Stam or wpn DMG? Cuz yeah heavy would love it more... What about it's tied to dodge roll?? @Brutusmax1mus what about that idea?

I feel like it would have to be tied to medium through passives or evasion @Waffennacht. Otherwise light and heavy could utilize it too. I don't dislike putting it on fg or undaunted, but then again, everyone could use it.

@DDuke I'm talking like 75% dmg reduction bc it would require activating evasion and dodge rolling. But then, dodge rolling is a short span. I feel like it would need something more than the 1 second it takes to roll.

Casul · November 2017

Got it. Let's make a new set.

2p. Health
3p. Health regen
4p. Physical defense.
....
5p. Once every 2 minutes you absorb all the damage from a single ultomato (typo but I can't help but leave that) used against you.

Waffennacht · November 2017

BuildMan wrote: »

Got it. Let's make a new set.

2p. Health
3p. Health regen
4p. Physical defense.
....
5p. Once every 2 minutes you absorb all the damage from a single ultomato (typo but I can't help but leave that) used against you.

Earthgore ult version, btw I like ultomato lol

Ragnaroek93 · November 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Wanna know what would actually fix everything? A Stam/wpn DMG based heal in the fighters tree

Thought about that too but this would make blockheal too strong again. A stam shield would probably be better but meh, time to kill is already so damn high.

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

BuildMan wrote: »

Got it. Let's make a new set.

2p. Health
3p. Health regen
4p. Physical defense.
....
5p. Once every 2 minutes you absorb all the damage from a single ultomato (typo but I can't help but leave that) used against you.

Ahh the 5pc Ultomato set.

Brutusmax1mus · November 2017

The Ultomato and cheese build

TheDoomsdayMonster · November 2017

Sharee wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@TheDoomsdayMonster

I don't think you really understand what the problem is.

It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.

If a build allows you to face anything without having to make compromises and without having to change playstyles and adapting to whatever you are fighting, then *that* would be a problem, in my opinion.

And you aren't forced to adapt. You can also choose to simply accept that a build which goes balls-out offense without taking defensive measures is going to have vulnerabilities.

100% agreed...