Do you think the Exploit Perma Ban was too harsh? Yes or No?

Mureel · November 2017

morrowjen wrote: »

Can anyone give those of us out of the loop a short version of what happened?

I've linked the ZOS Notification like 4 times in this thread; but it is pinned to the top of the Trials and Dungeons Category.

starkerealm · November 2017

idk wrote: »

I really cannot understand anyone with integrity of thought disagreeing the players involved should not receive a harsh punishment.

In fairness, because the exploit is live, we can't really spell out the methodology. When you understand the steps taken, it easily steps out of the range of, "could have been an innocent mistake. But, without that info, you've got people comparing it to HRC's Attronach or vCOA.

Which, I get it; those exploits appeared to be intended mechanics. Kinda, sorta. (I've certainly seen MMOs with more convoluted mechanics as intentional boss fight elements, anyway.)

This... it's not like that. It's very clear you're doing something that shouldn't be happening.

morrowjen · November 2017

Mureel wrote: »

morrowjen wrote: »

Can anyone give those of us out of the loop a short version of what happened?

I've linked the ZOS Notification like 4 times in this thread; but it is pinned to the top of the Trials and Dungeons Category.

Thanks.

PrayingSeraph · November 2017

Eh I believe those who continually used this exploit and promoted it to others in chat deserve a perma ban. However if someone did this only once or twice after being invited to the group should be punished but less severely. It's not justice otherwise. ZOS needs to look into every culprit and understand the proper context of what each individual did. I certainly think those banned should at least be able to appeal to ban once so they can attempt to defend themselves.

I see comments saying ZOS has every right to perma ban them due to TOS but I feel thats a redundant point since legality and ethics are two entirely different things. I also see a lack of compassion among some users here, with some accusing the exploiters as people who likely cheat in everything both past and future. We need to remember that those banned were individuals whom we know nothing about, so it's hard to take any judgement from users here seriously in that regard.

BrightOblivion · November 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I really cannot understand anyone with integrity of thought disagreeing the players involved should not receive a harsh punishment.

In fairness, because the exploit is live, we can't really spell out the methodology. When you understand the steps taken, it easily steps out of the range of, "could have been an innocent mistake. But, without that info, you've got people comparing it to HRC's Attronach or vCOA.

Which, I get it; those exploits appeared to be intended mechanics. Kinda, sorta. (I've certainly seen MMOs with more convoluted mechanics as intentional boss fight elements, anyway.)

This... it's not like that. It's very clear you're doing something that shouldn't be happening.

Nope. Jessica said the exploit's fixed.

That said, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not opposed to these particular people getting punished. All (now) 85 of them. What I'm wary of doing moving forward (and honestly oppose) is having blanket zero-tolerance unappealable perma-bans in all cases. Because not all exploits are created equal and some are far less obviously exploity.

And before someone goes "ZOS is well within their right to do so" (again), just because you can do something doesn't make it a good idea. Especially when ZOS has banned the people who discovered a bug/exploit and reported it in the past.

Cpt_Teemo · November 2017

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Eh I believe those who continually used this exploit and promoted it to others in chat deserve a perma ban. However if someone did this only once or twice after being invited to the group should be punished but less severely. It's not justice otherwise. ZOS needs to look into every culprit and understand the proper context of what each individual did. I certainly think those banned should at least be able to appeal to ban once so they can attempt to defend themselves.

I see comments saying ZOS has every right to perma ban them due to TOS but I feel thats a redundant point since legality and ethics are two entirely different things. I also see a lack of compassion among some users here, with some accusing the exploiters as people who likely cheat in everything both past and future. We need to remember that those banned were individuals whom we know nothing about, so it's hard to take any judgement from users here seriously in that regard.

That's like saying Oh, let me try this dupe once or twice and dupe the most expensive single item in game once or twice and I'll never do it again.

Doesn't make it right, once is enough grounds to get banned if you know what your doing is wrong.

makerofthings · November 2017

Cubagaming wrote: »

I actually know how the PS4 players that were banned in the first patch did it. The boss still had the lightning aoes attack the players. There really wasn't a safe areA. They didn't use snipe either, it was caltrops. I also like to point out that it was 10 people that did it on PS4 and they only did it once. They didn't say nothing to anyone else, didn't get on Facebook or text chat to sell the skins or nothing. Yet, people group them with the xbox players who took a bigger advantage of this exploit. Some of those people in that group also was the first time they did something like that. They also helped the PS4 community more than some other end game players. That community is cancer and literally aids combined. So I do believe that a permaban was too much.

Well, if they only used caltrops then then ban should be lifted. Ever step on one of those? It is quite painful. Had the Devs had that information in the first place (the caltrops) I am sure a 3 day ban would be in order. They should also keep the skins and achievements for being so clever and perhaps a parade. I hear the 85 banned are working on that canceraids cure (CaHiv for short) the poster mentioned as well. Do I see a Nobel prize in their future? Time will tell.

Edit: I do not believe Cubagaming knows what "Literally" means. Does he believe the community as a whole actually has the ailments he described? Or is he being figurative in this description? It seems odd to me that someone could believe in such a thing.

PrayingSeraph · November 2017

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Eh I believe those who continually used this exploit and promoted it to others in chat deserve a perma ban. However if someone did this only once or twice after being invited to the group should be punished but less severely. It's not justice otherwise. ZOS needs to look into every culprit and understand the proper context of what each individual did. I certainly think those banned should at least be able to appeal to ban once so they can attempt to defend themselves.

I see comments saying ZOS has every right to perma ban them due to TOS but I feel thats a redundant point since legality and ethics are two entirely different things. I also see a lack of compassion among some users here, with some accusing the exploiters as people who likely cheat in everything both past and future. We need to remember that those banned were individuals whom we know nothing about, so it's hard to take any judgement from users here seriously in that regard.

That's like saying Oh, let me try this dupe once or twice and dupe the most expensive single item in game once or twice and I'll never do it again.

Doesn't make it right, once is enough grounds to get banned if you know what your doing is wrong.

Duping is far more dangerous to the ingame economy than this but even then I'd argue context is important. But again, I don't consider it ethical to punish someone who say in the heat of the moment got excited and participated in the exploit the same as someone who actively did the exploit and promoted doing it to others. Keep in mind I never said doing the exploit is right and that I advocate punishment on all, but rather I believe context is important in punishment, just as it is in real life law. Rule breaking both in game and real life are not created equal.

'course I'm just giving my humble opinion on a thread thats asking for it.

mewcatus · November 2017

Looking at the polls, it is obvious that the silent majority supports the ban, despite the vocal opposition in the thread.

Feanor · November 2017

I can't believe this was only Caltrops. The ability is what, 6k DPS per group member? At 72,000 group DPS you're looking at a solid 21 hour boss fight. No, that's not what happened.

Iselin · November 2017

This thread is hilarious.

Some smart*** dweebs found an exploit, bragged about it and posted videos, charged people gold to take them for an exploit run. Some other idiots actually paid gold to be taken for that run. ZOS posts about the exploit bans and tells everyone it would be patched on Monday and until then they would be heavily monitoring AS runs and then even more idiots do it and also get banned.

Someone posts yet another YT video showing exactly how to do the exploit (a video that is still up, BTW - just google "ESO vAS exploit and it'll be the 1st or 2nd video result) and encourages everyone to do it because, says the genius, "if everyone does it they can't ban everyone" and throws an insult Alcast's way just because he supports the ban.

And then some people in this thread want to go all internet lawyer wannabe about the punishment being too harsh? LOL give me a break.

If anything it's too lenient since these people are still allowed to play and use any other account they might have or buy a new one. Too bad we don't have the Korean gamertag system that would allow them to ban those individuals from this and every other online game in existence. I would add compulsory sterilization to prevent them from breeding others like themselves.

Too harsh... LOL.

Slick_007 · November 2017

Cubagaming wrote: »

I actually know how the PS4 players that were banned in the first patch did it. The boss still had the lightning aoes attack the players. There really wasn't a safe areA. They didn't use snipe either, it was caltrops. I also like to point out that it was 10 people that did it on PS4 and they only did it once. They didn't say nothing to anyone else, didn't get on Facebook or text chat to sell the skins or nothing. Yet, people group them with the xbox players who took a bigger advantage of this exploit. Some of those people in that group also was the first time they did something like that. They also helped the PS4 community more than some other end game players. That community is cancer and literally aids combined. So I do believe that a permaban was too much.

so if they didnt say anything to anyone else, how is it you know? this would mean you had to be there.

cheaters get banned yet you call the community cancer. id suggest the cancer just got a shot of chemo.

GreenhaloX · November 2017

It's just one of those things.. you know (or do you know) that something is wrong, and you're not supposed to be doing it or shouldn't do it; yet people do it. Granted it is against ZOS's TOS and CoC, and pretty much they have the say in it. I'm not one that would ever engage in any cheat or exploit in ESO; never had and never will. However, even though ZOS is the Judge, jury and executioner on this, does the punishment actually fits the crime? Oh, I'm not defending or siding with the actions committed by those having exploited it, but to me, it like this.

In real life, and I'm not talking about some crazy, whacked out dudes committing felonies, murders and other atrocious and heinous crimes (damn, we just have so many whacked out crazy people out there in this world), but rather everyday prudent (hopefully) ordinary people/citizens recklessly speeding out there. You damn know if you get caught speeding by a cop and gets pulled over, your chances of getting a speeding ticket is quite high. So why do people speed when the posted speed limit signs are out there? Speeding may be petty, but it is still a crime. It is a petty crime which you are subjected to quite the hefty fine and/or other fees associated with, such as, may have to attend and pay additionally for a driver course to clear your record. Too many times, and the chances are your driver's license can be suspended or revoked.

So, in hindsight, the perma ban for committing this in-game exploit or infraction can have a certain parallel to being fined for getting a speeding ticket. However, in this sense, it is more like you're slapped with an automatic suspension or license revoked from just that speeding ticket. Ha ha. (not that it will stop some dumb arse people out there from still driving while their license has been suspended or revoked) Yeah, I think the punishment for those exploiters are kind of rough. I guess, to ZOS, it equates to a capital crime versus just a petty speeding or other traffic related offenses. Well, it is just a video game and not real life. So, to me, it is a bit rough. I can agree with other deterrents, such as a few weeks temporary ban or some other loss of privileges; perhaps a temporary ban from trials access or something.

Oh well.. bottom line, Zen and ZOS have the say. It is their game.. Don't cheat, don't exploit, don't steal and don't speed. If you do the crime and get caught, well, do the damn time (whatever it is) and quit crying!

Publius_Scipio · November 2017

It’s a game. They weren’t put in prison and they don’t have criminal records for this, it will be ok. They can play Super Mario Odyssey, Assassins Creed Origins, Star Wars Battlefront 2, Call of Duty WW2, etc.

Edit: O, of course, Skyrim VR on PS4

MakoFore · November 2017

they needing punishing, what they did was terrible. i just feel permaban? wow - thats a death sentence. you killed off 34 players who contributed ALOT of money, time, emotion, friendships , - invested literally years into this game. i cried when i deconned my maelstrom bow! imagine losing everything! MMOs are the most involving game there is! yes i get they should have known what they were getting into - and thats the flipside- im jsut sympathetic to being in the moment of -
"what you doing?"
- "oh just farming mats for the past 12 hours and maybe ill run with pugs and wipe 500 times after 8 hours of trying"......
"hey want that skin?"
"sure!"
people that bot , rubber band or gold sell get 3 day suspensions.
ive had 2 people call me homophobic slurs, racist slurs, etc- not get bans- just warnings.... they dont share punsihments but i know cos i saw the same person in the same place the next day- and he called me the same thing- my best option i was told was to hit ignore. good justice zos!
just so its clear exploiting in a trial > racism >sexism > homophobia > botting and macroing in pvp

to take it all away in one fell swoop? they did something very severly wrong- yes- but they also gave alot to the game, im sure because we all do - anyone that gets to a certain level in this game has had to have spent months and years of gaming time in this world. and in that time im sure they helped players, made guilds, did alot of good things that are all erased with this punishmnet.

i get the justification for their punishment, an example had to be made- but personally im more of a rehabilitation guy.

this isnt punishment this is banishment- this is evisceration.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · November 2017

MakoFore wrote: »

i get the justification for their punishment, an example had to be made- but personally im more of a rehabilitation guy.

You see, there are many different players playing ESO. While we all share the love for the game, we all differ in terms of age, and culture. And education.

In the past, I have found a way to exploit veteran hard mode Molag Kena. Right after the the fight I have submitted a ticket to Customer Care. These people have found an exploit and instead of doing the Right Thing have taken advantage of it on so many levels, showing off and selling it. ESO is a much better place without them.

And I wonder... if you have spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours into something, what adjective would best define you for risking all of it exploiting the show?

Rehab? How would you re-educate them? And what would you do if they re-education would not work? ...because, of course, if rehab doesnt work you must take severe actions to protect the population.

Tandor · November 2017

People who think this was a harsh punishment for a casual bug that anyone could have stumbled upon and not realised they were doing anything wrong need to read both of Jessica's posts from yesterday. She made it very clear that several specific and deliberate actions had to be taken to trigger the bug which then could only be exploited by a prolonged and gradual wearing down of the boss mob without taking any damage. It was the calculating way in which the bug was triggered and then painstakingly exploited that led to the severity of the punishment.

She also makes it clear that they are taking action against bot accounts every single day, and that they are consciously stepping up the their response to any form of cheating and exploiting. Both posts are easily found on Dev Tracker and make reassuring reading - both for those who thought this punishment too harsh as well as those who felt previous punishments were too light.

Cubagaming · November 2017

Slick_007 wrote: »

Cubagaming wrote: »

I actually know how the PS4 players that were banned in the first patch did it. The boss still had the lightning aoes attack the players. There really wasn't a safe areA. They didn't use snipe either, it was caltrops. I also like to point out that it was 10 people that did it on PS4 and they only did it once. They didn't say nothing to anyone else, didn't get on Facebook or text chat to sell the skins or nothing. Yet, people group them with the xbox players who took a bigger advantage of this exploit. Some of those people in that group also was the first time they did something like that. They also helped the PS4 community more than some other end game players. That community is cancer and literally aids combined. So I do believe that a permaban was too much.

so if they didnt say anything to anyone else, how is it you know? this would mean you had to be there.

cheaters get banned yet you call the community cancer. id suggest the cancer just got a shot of chemo.

Cubagaming · November 2017

I guess some people don't care about others unless they are somehow involved. Some of the people banned were actually really nice people to others in the game. Shame actually that this harsh ban came. I really do feel zos is embarrassed at this point. When you think about it, it took people 4 days to achieve the hardest content that came out with clockwork. I would be ashamed too.

Shad0wfire99 · November 2017

Cubagaming wrote: »

I guess some people don't care about others unless they are somehow involved. Some of the people banned were actually really nice people to others in the game. Shame actually that this harsh ban came. I really do feel zos is embarrassed at this point. When you think about it, it took people 4 days to achieve the hardest content that came out with clockwork. I would be ashamed too.

Took them 4 days to cheat.

Sandman929 · November 2017

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

MakoFore wrote: »

i get the justification for their punishment, an example had to be made- but personally im more of a rehabilitation guy.

You see, there are many different players playing ESO. While we all share the love for the game, we all differ in terms of age, and culture. And education.

In the past, I have found a way to exploit veteran hard mode Molag Kena. Right after the the fight I have submitted a ticket to Customer Care. These people have found an exploit and instead of doing the Right Thing have taken advantage of it on so many levels, showing off and selling it. ESO is a much better place without them.

And I wonder... if you have spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours into something, what adjective would best define you for risking all of it exploiting the show?

Rehab? How would you re-educate them? And what would you do if they re-education would not work? ...because, of course, if rehab doesnt work you must take severe actions to protect the population.

Agreed. There is no rehab. People who exploit, will do so at every given opportunity and, in my experience, simply laugh at the thought of any sort of consequence. For the most part they believe the ban hammer will never hit them, until it does.
Good riddance, and good bye to them.

Iselin · November 2017

Sandman929 wrote: »

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

MakoFore wrote: »

i get the justification for their punishment, an example had to be made- but personally im more of a rehabilitation guy.

You see, there are many different players playing ESO. While we all share the love for the game, we all differ in terms of age, and culture. And education.

In the past, I have found a way to exploit veteran hard mode Molag Kena. Right after the the fight I have submitted a ticket to Customer Care. These people have found an exploit and instead of doing the Right Thing have taken advantage of it on so many levels, showing off and selling it. ESO is a much better place without them.

And I wonder... if you have spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours into something, what adjective would best define you for risking all of it exploiting the show?

Rehab? How would you re-educate them? And what would you do if they re-education would not work? ...because, of course, if rehab doesnt work you must take severe actions to protect the population.

Agreed. There is no rehab. People who exploit, will do so at every given opportunity and, in my experience, simply laugh at the thought of any sort of consequence. For the most part they believe the ban hammer will never hit them, until it does.
Good riddance, and good bye to them.

There are websites you know, whose sole purpose is to share cheats and exploits and laugh about them. Identifying those guys in games and giving them the boot is always a great thing.

Hecker777 · November 2017

To discover something like that and use it for personal gain is cheating. You cheat, you get banned plain and simple. Goodbye.

Wreuntzylla · November 2017

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

It’s a game. They weren’t put in prison and they don’t have criminal records for this, it will be ok. They can play Super Mario Odyssey, Assassins Creed Origins, Star Wars Battlefront 2, Call of Duty WW2, etc.

Edit: O, of course, Skyrim VR on PS4

I am not so sure. There are many people that make MMO's their lives. I've run into some people that gain their entire sense of self-worth from what they do in-game.

Jeremy · November 2017

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Just Yes or No. Votes are anonymous - let’s see what the majority is.

I believe it was too harsh.

Permanent bans should be reserved for those who use obvious cheats like hacking the game or using unauthorized third party programs. Exploiting unintended advantages in the existing game design isn't something I'm comfortable with the developers punishing players for - let alone banning them permanently from the game over.

It was an obvious exploit. There is zero difference between exploiting an obvious unintended situation as they did vs hacking the game. None.

They got what they deserved, hands down. Any decent MMO would ban them and any worthy guild would have kicked them as well. Zos is finally standing up to such a pathetic players.

Good riddance

I disagree.

A boss bugging out is not nearly the same as hacking the game or using some cheat program. This is blaming the players for what is essentially the developer's mistake.

I have seen players figure out a strategy to defeat bosses etc. in ways not intended by taking advantage of bugs or faulty design on probably every game I have ever played. This is something I imagine we all have done on occasion. I know I've certainly seen it done on every game I've ever played. And players usually take full advantage of these known tricks to beat bosses more easily until the developers get around to fixing them. And I never recall anyone being banned for it.

In any case; expecting your players to perform the duties of a bug tester and report any possible exploit to ZoS or to refrain from using them - expecting them even to go so far as to drop from any group using these strategies (especially if you had just paid a lot of gold to join one) is grossly unfair in my judgement and not something I could ever agree with.

As I've said countless times on this board, take away the items and achievements they obtained while using the exploit if you want. That would be sufficient to stand up to these "pathetic players" as you call them. But banning them outright - forever - for taking advantage of an in-game bug? That is really no way to treat your customers.

@Jeremy

You can disagree but your analogy is wrong.

The boss didn't bug out because the players were doing what seemed to be the intended way to fight the boss. The players bugged it out. They took deliberate action that was clearly done in a manner to purposefully get the boss to buy out so they could do the fight in a manner that is obviously far from intended.

I really cannot understand anyone with integrity of thought disagreeing the players involved should not receive a harsh punishment.

These types of players look for ways to exploit unintended aspects of the game. I don't understand who would be supportive of someone who plays like that unless it's something that's interesting to them as well.

Good riddance. Glad Zos is finally taking the trash to the curb.

Edit: as someone else pointed out above, on this page, one would have to be pretty dumb to know that they were not participating in an exploit. Again, good riddance. Any uostand My guild would have kicked them anyhow.

I'm aware that players caused the boss to bug out. But the boss still bugged out. So I don't understand why you think that makes my "analogy" wrong.

It wasn't an analogy anyway. It was simply a description of what occurred. It's not much different then the millions of other times players discover unintended ways through faulty design to exploit a boss battle and make it easier. Similar things have happened on literally every MMORPG I have ever played. And these exploits are almost always taken advantage of until the developers get around to fixing them. So if companies are going to start permanently banning players for taking advantage of these kind of oversights enjoy as they are going to be literally banning millions of players.

So I suspect there was something else involved here besides simply exploiting a bug. At least I hope there was.

Your analogy was merely the boss bugs out. There is a world of difference between a boss that just happens to bug out than an idiot, or group of idiots spending untold time trying to figure out how to bug out a boss some a safe location where nothing can damage them.

While they were idiots, and even bigger idiots because instead of reporting it they advertising it and sold access to it in game. To bad they did not have a little intelligence to understand it would not go unpunished.

That right there takes what they did to an entire new level. The dimwits get to enjoy the title and the skin and can continue to enjoy it from a far. They got they deserved.

It wasn't an analogy....

And I thought it was obvious that the players were the ones who managed a way to bug out the boss. I did not think that needed to be explained.

Your opinion that these players are idiiots or dimiwits is irrelevant to what I am saying. And I imagine quite a few of us (if not all of us) have taken advantage of certain exploits to defeat bosses more easily on games before.

So maybe we should just all be permanently banned.

Publius_Scipio · November 2017

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

It’s a game. They weren’t put in prison and they don’t have criminal records for this, it will be ok. They can play Super Mario Odyssey, Assassins Creed Origins, Star Wars Battlefront 2, Call of Duty WW2, etc.

Edit: O, of course, Skyrim VR on PS4

I am not so sure. There are many people that make MMO's their lives. I've run into some people that gain their entire sense of self-worth from what they do in-game.

That may be true. There are billions of people in this world after all. Which makes for billions of personalities, life struggles, issues, victories and triumphs, etc, etc. That being said, are we as the ESO player community really flipping out over 34 bans? It's ZOS's product, ZOS's rules. If ZOS wants to ban me tomorrow because they feel like it, they can and have the right to do so.

Now of course ZOS wouldn't do that actually to the legendary Scipio. Would they?

Orjix · November 2017

yes, in my opinion exploits fall on the developer, if people can find a way to get better in a game that the game allows them to do (without external help) they should have no repercussions placed on them. the devs put it in the game (yes unwillingly and unknowingly, but still done) so it should not be frowned upon.

Note, i have only ever used one exploit, and a very minor one at that.

Jeremy · November 2017

Orjix wrote: »

yes, in my opinion exploits fall on the developer, if people can find a way to get better in a game that the game allows them to do (without external help) they should have no repercussions placed on them. the devs put it in the game (yes unwillingly and unknowingly, but still done) so it should not be frowned upon.

Note, i have only ever used one exploit, and a very minor one at that.

I tend to agree with most of what you say. To place all of the blame on the players for what is ultimately the fault of the developers for allowing an easier and unintended way to defeat a boss isn't fair. They were operating within the existing game design and are not using external cheats or outside programs to accomplish the exploit. And yes - to me this does matter.

I would describe many of the add-ons currently in use and approved by ZoS as more akin to cheating than this would be.

Where I seem to slightly differ with you is I believe it's appropriate to take away the items and achievements these players acquired via the exploit. To me that is a reasonable repercussion.

ZoS may also want to consider hiring these players as bug testers. Because they seem pretty good at identifying significant bugs their development team missed.

Tandor · November 2017

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

It’s a game. They weren’t put in prison and they don’t have criminal records for this, it will be ok. They can play Super Mario Odyssey, Assassins Creed Origins, Star Wars Battlefront 2, Call of Duty WW2, etc.

Edit: O, of course, Skyrim VR on PS4

I am not so sure. There are many people that make MMO's their lives. I've run into some people that gain their entire sense of self-worth from what they do in-game.

If their entire sense of self-worth is based on what they do in-game, then they will hopefully want to uphold decent values, support firm punishments against those who cheat, and not cheat themselves. Otherwise, if their sense of self-worth allows them to cheat then it's high time it was changed, and perhaps this move by ZOS will enable that process to start.

I know that'll come across as righteous, but frankly there's no basis on which this calculated set of specific and deliberate actions to trigger a bug which is then transparently exploited by a protracted and gradual wearing down of the boss mob to gain an achievement and reward at no risk of damage whatsoever to the character can be justified, and anyone whose sense of self-worth is based on such an approach needs to be kicked from the game in the hope that they will then reassess their sense of self-worth.

starkerealm · November 2017

MakoFore wrote: »

they needing punishing, what they did was terrible. i just feel permaban? wow - thats a death sentence. you killed off 34 players who contributed ALOT of money, time, emotion, friendships , - invested literally years into this game. i cried when i deconned my maelstrom bow! imagine losing everything! MMOs are the most involving game there is! yes i get they should have known what they were getting into - and thats the flipside- im jsut sympathetic to being in the moment of -
"what you doing?"
- "oh just farming mats for the past 12 hours and maybe ill run with pugs and wipe 500 times after 8 hours of trying"......
"hey want that skin?"
"sure!"
people that bot , rubber band or gold sell get 3 day suspensions.
ive had 2 people call me homophobic slurs, racist slurs, etc- not get bans- just warnings.... they dont share punsihments but i know cos i saw the same person in the same place the next day- and he called me the same thing- my best option i was told was to hit ignore. good justice zos!
just so its clear exploiting in a trial > racism >sexism > homophobia > botting and macroing in pvp

to take it all away in one fell swoop? they did something very severly wrong- yes- but they also gave alot to the game, im sure because we all do - anyone that gets to a certain level in this game has had to have spent months and years of gaming time in this world. and in that time im sure they helped players, made guilds, did alot of good things that are all erased with this punishmnet.

i get the justification for their punishment, an example had to be made- but personally im more of a rehabilitation guy.

this isnt punishment this is banishment- this is evisceration.

The other side of this is, you can't have a system of punishment that isn't applied universally. If you can achieve some status where, afterwards you're simply absolved of any wrongdoing, that's not going to be healthy for the game in the long term, because... hey, guess what? If you know you're in that class, you'll start breaking the rules with impunity.

Okay, not everyone. Some people will occasionally transgress, while others will just flip you off and go back to breaking the rules.

The players at the core of this incident were, solidly, in the latter camp, from what I've seen. Yes, they contributed to the game. They ran trials. They also exploited, they cheated. This was not their first round with breaking the rules.

Players like this (not just these 12 or so) do contribute a lot of positive things to the game, as you pointed out. Building community, helping people out. At the same time, they also do a lot of damage to the community. The PvP guilds that were trading, and would sabotage other players from getting Emperor. The exploiters trivializing content, and trying to spread the exploits as far as they could to ensure that ZOS couldn't ban them. Trying to undermine the accomplishments of legitimate players who could actually clear the content.

They benefit the game, but at the same time they harm the game. On the whole, that's not a good argument to keep them around, when the harm they're doing is this visible. Again, these guys swiped the server first for that content, and were selling glitch runs before legitimate players on that platform had managed to complete it.