Do you think the Exploit Perma Ban was too harsh? Yes or No?

Ihatenightblades · November 2017

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i voted "No"

However:

i think from now on, people should receive an Email Warning, and then a 1 week ban, 30 day ban and then finally a Permanent ban for offences instead of just "BAM" your'e banned" and persons were not even aware they were cheat or exploiting.

U gotta be pretty dumb to not know you are participating in a exploit..

Storymaster · November 2017

My only response is:

Cadbury · November 2017

Ihatenightblades wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i voted "No"

However:

i think from now on, people should receive an Email Warning, and then a 1 week ban, 30 day ban and then finally a Permanent ban for offences instead of just "BAM" your'e banned" and persons were not even aware they were cheat or exploiting.

U gotta be pretty dumb to not know you are participating in a exploit..

"But I didn't know that car was stolen, officer!"

zaria · November 2017

Cadbury wrote: »

Ihatenightblades wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

i voted "No"

However:

i think from now on, people should receive an Email Warning, and then a 1 week ban, 30 day ban and then finally a Permanent ban for offences instead of just "BAM" your'e banned" and persons were not even aware they were cheat or exploiting.

U gotta be pretty dumb to not know you are participating in a exploit..

"But I didn't know that car was stolen, officer!"

The Ferrari was standing alone on the gas station with the key in the ignition, I thought some has abandoned it.
Yes I saw it was an long line inside but perhaps it was free hot-dog day or something.

idk · November 2017

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Just Yes or No. Votes are anonymous - let’s see what the majority is.

I believe it was too harsh.

Permanent bans should be reserved for those who use obvious cheats like hacking the game or using unauthorized third party programs. Exploiting unintended advantages in the existing game design isn't something I'm comfortable with the developers punishing players for - let alone banning them permanently from the game over.

It was an obvious exploit. There is zero difference between exploiting an obvious unintended situation as they did vs hacking the game. None.

They got what they deserved, hands down. Any decent MMO would ban them and any worthy guild would have kicked them as well. Zos is finally standing up to such a pathetic players.

Good riddance

I disagree.

A boss bugging out is not nearly the same as hacking the game or using some cheat program. This is blaming the players for what is essentially the developer's mistake.

I have seen players figure out a strategy to defeat bosses etc. in ways not intended by taking advantage of bugs or faulty design on probably every game I have ever played. This is something I imagine we all have done on occasion. I know I've certainly seen it done on every game I've ever played. And players usually take full advantage of these known tricks to beat bosses more easily until the developers get around to fixing them. And I never recall anyone being banned for it.

In any case; expecting your players to perform the duties of a bug tester and report any possible exploit to ZoS or to refrain from using them - expecting them even to go so far as to drop from any group using these strategies (especially if you had just paid a lot of gold to join one) is grossly unfair in my judgement and not something I could ever agree with.

As I've said countless times on this board, take away the items and achievements they obtained while using the exploit if you want. That would be sufficient to stand up to these "pathetic players" as you call them. But banning them outright - forever - for taking advantage of an in-game bug? That is really no way to treat your customers.

@Jeremy

You can disagree but your analogy is wrong.

The boss didn't bug out because the players were doing what seemed to be the intended way to fight the boss. The players bugged it out. They took deliberate action that was clearly done in a manner to purposefully get the boss to buy out so they could do the fight in a manner that is obviously far from intended.

I really cannot understand anyone with integrity of thought disagreeing the players involved should not receive a harsh punishment.

These types of players look for ways to exploit unintended aspects of the game. I don't understand who would be supportive of someone who plays like that unless it's something that's interesting to them as well.

Good riddance. Glad Zos is finally taking the trash to the curb.

Edit: as someone else pointed out above, on this page, one would have to be pretty dumb to know that they were not participating in an exploit. Again, good riddance. Any uostand My guild would have kicked them anyhow.

Wreuntzylla · November 2017

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

I just wish they did it for the survey exploit years back. That ruined the economy for awhile, unlike this which impacted everyone else minimally.

That's an interesting point. Did ZoS subsequently say that they were moving to permabans? With notice, the ban34 is fair, without notice, I am not so sure. If you set a precedent, you have to clearly back off that precedent BEFORE enacting the consequences.

Mondini · November 2017

can someone give me a tldr of what happened and who got banned

idk · November 2017

Mondini wrote: »

can someone give me a tldr of what happened and who got banned

Group exploited and the also sold clears via the exploitation and all got banned for life (if Zos truly has a perm ban).

Read about it in the dev tracker for more details.

makerofthings · November 2017

The 85 banned persons are free to purchase new accounts and start over. Their old accounts are gone forever. It has been mentioned in another thread, that ZOS will be stricter moving forward, admitting they have been a bit lax in the past. I have no issue with the severity of the punishment and do hope, in the future, ZOS will continue this plan of action.

Jeremy · November 2017

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Just Yes or No. Votes are anonymous - let’s see what the majority is.

I believe it was too harsh.

Permanent bans should be reserved for those who use obvious cheats like hacking the game or using unauthorized third party programs. Exploiting unintended advantages in the existing game design isn't something I'm comfortable with the developers punishing players for - let alone banning them permanently from the game over.

It was an obvious exploit. There is zero difference between exploiting an obvious unintended situation as they did vs hacking the game. None.

They got what they deserved, hands down. Any decent MMO would ban them and any worthy guild would have kicked them as well. Zos is finally standing up to such a pathetic players.

Good riddance

I disagree.

A boss bugging out is not nearly the same as hacking the game or using some cheat program. This is blaming the players for what is essentially the developer's mistake.

I have seen players figure out a strategy to defeat bosses etc. in ways not intended by taking advantage of bugs or faulty design on probably every game I have ever played. This is something I imagine we all have done on occasion. I know I've certainly seen it done on every game I've ever played. And players usually take full advantage of these known tricks to beat bosses more easily until the developers get around to fixing them. And I never recall anyone being banned for it.

In any case; expecting your players to perform the duties of a bug tester and report any possible exploit to ZoS or to refrain from using them - expecting them even to go so far as to drop from any group using these strategies (especially if you had just paid a lot of gold to join one) is grossly unfair in my judgement and not something I could ever agree with.

As I've said countless times on this board, take away the items and achievements they obtained while using the exploit if you want. That would be sufficient to stand up to these "pathetic players" as you call them. But banning them outright - forever - for taking advantage of an in-game bug? That is really no way to treat your customers.

@Jeremy

You can disagree but your analogy is wrong.

The boss didn't bug out because the players were doing what seemed to be the intended way to fight the boss. The players bugged it out. They took deliberate action that was clearly done in a manner to purposefully get the boss to buy out so they could do the fight in a manner that is obviously far from intended.

I really cannot understand anyone with integrity of thought disagreeing the players involved should not receive a harsh punishment.

These types of players look for ways to exploit unintended aspects of the game. I don't understand who would be supportive of someone who plays like that unless it's something that's interesting to them as well.

Good riddance. Glad Zos is finally taking the trash to the curb.

Edit: as someone else pointed out above, on this page, one would have to be pretty dumb to know that they were not participating in an exploit. Again, good riddance. Any uostand My guild would have kicked them anyhow.

I'm aware that players caused the boss to bug out. But the boss still bugged out. So I don't understand why you think that makes my "analogy" wrong.

It wasn't an analogy anyway. It was simply a description of what occurred. It's not much different then the millions of other times players discover unintended ways through faulty design to exploit a boss battle and make it easier. Similar things have happened on literally every MMORPG I have ever played. And these exploits are almost always taken advantage of until the developers get around to fixing them. So if companies are going to start permanently banning players for taking advantage of these kind of oversights enjoy as they are going to be literally banning millions of players.

So I suspect there was something else involved here besides simply exploiting a bug. At least I hope there was.

Jeremy · November 2017

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Does anyone else remember the old cheese method where everyone would stand on the island in the back of Fire Maw's room in COA2, back when that was considered the newest, most difficult content? The boss could not hit anyone, and the adds could not get to you. It did seem semi intentional though, since there was a bridge leading up to that rock/island. I think it was later fixed, but I have not attempted it in a long time (got my DPS up to a level where burning is the best option).

Idk about everyone else, but I am picturing the vAS exploit as something similar to this. And I must say that permabans seem really harsh for this.

If, however, it was more like a hack or bug to get outside the world, and hit the boss without him ever becoming active, that would be a little more severe. I think this is how the old vMoL exploit worked, and is worthy of some type of ban.

Good post.

And how many players here have joined groups who have used this strategy to defeat that boss? I know I sure have. I suspect many of these righteous posters here have done so as well.

So unless they immediately dropped their groups out of moral outrage and reported this exploit to ZOS a case could be made they should be indefinitely banned as well under this new standard that anyone who participates in an exploit deserves an immediate and permanent ban.

So I would caution people to think about the implications of what they are asking for.

logarifmik · November 2017

Those who abused vulnerability should be banned for sure. Just to remind people that it is rather risky to be a spielbrecher in this universe.

D0PAMINE · November 2017

They should be banned from leaderboards perminatly, and have any achievements associated perminatly locked. It's an insult to the players that actually spent the time and effort to achieve this. Anything less is a joke.

Asgari · November 2017

The way i view it is, if you exploit in a way that only affects yourself like you managed to have dyes you shouldn't have, or multiple pets out than that is whatever.

However, in a game like this where you factor in advantages from exploits (having gear you normally wouldn't be able to obtain) than yes players need to be punished and time and time again ZOS has been too soft on exploiters.

I am very pleased to see them take a tough stance and stick with it. In PvE and PvP there is no place for exploiting and players who feel the need to do it just because it saved them some time or seemed harmless.

Bugs happen in any game that lead to some form of an exploit, using said bug for you advantage makes it an exploit and in return you should be punished.

Thank you zos.

notimetocare · November 2017

Very simple: Perma ban for something the coders failed to do correctly, Yes.

Going without punishment would be bad on ZoS' part, but a perma-ban was far too harsh given past choices ZoS has made and the scale of the problem. There have been tons of issues with people abusing exploits in the game (and other games) but have recieved temp-bans or no punishment at all.

Jeremy · November 2017

Asgari wrote: »

The way i view it is, if you exploit in a way that only affects yourself like you managed to have dyes you shouldn't have, or multiple pets out than that is whatever.

However, in a game like this where you factor in advantages from exploits (having gear you normally wouldn't be able to obtain) than yes players need to be punished and time and time again ZOS has been too soft on exploiters.

I am very pleased to see them take a tough stance and stick with it. In PvE and PvP there is no place for exploiting and players who feel the need to do it just because it saved them some time or seemed harmless.

Bugs happen in any game that lead to some form of an exploit, using said bug for you advantage makes it an exploit and in return you should be punished.

Thank you zos.

So take away the gear and achievements they obtained by use of the exploit. That would be appropriate and fair as it relates to other players.

Kicking them off the game forever? That's like punishing petty theft with the death penalty.

notimetocare · November 2017

D0PAMINE wrote: »

They should be banned from leaderboards perminatly, and have any achievements associated perminatly locked. It's an insult to the players that actually spent the time and effort to achieve this. Anything less is a joke.

Those players who 'spent time and effort' have probably used some method of cheesing a fight that is just as much and exploit as this. Stop pretending

Feanor · November 2017

Jeremy wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

The way i view it is, if you exploit in a way that only affects yourself like you managed to have dyes you shouldn't have, or multiple pets out than that is whatever.

However, in a game like this where you factor in advantages from exploits (having gear you normally wouldn't be able to obtain) than yes players need to be punished and time and time again ZOS has been too soft on exploiters.

I am very pleased to see them take a tough stance and stick with it. In PvE and PvP there is no place for exploiting and players who feel the need to do it just because it saved them some time or seemed harmless.

Bugs happen in any game that lead to some form of an exploit, using said bug for you advantage makes it an exploit and in return you should be punished.

Thank you zos.

So take away the gear and achievements they obtained by use of the exploit. That would be appropriate and fair as it relates to other players.

Kicking them off the game forever? That's like punishing petty theft with the death penalty.

That wouldn’t be any punishment though. People would still try to get away with it. Worst case the exploit gets noticed and the items are gone. No big deal as you couldn’t get them legitimately in the first place. Best case nobody noticed and you keep them.

That’s what had happened in the past with those lousy 3 day suspensions at best. People were actually encouraged to exploit even more.

LiquidPony · November 2017

Jeremy wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Does anyone else remember the old cheese method where everyone would stand on the island in the back of Fire Maw's room in COA2, back when that was considered the newest, most difficult content? The boss could not hit anyone, and the adds could not get to you. It did seem semi intentional though, since there was a bridge leading up to that rock/island. I think it was later fixed, but I have not attempted it in a long time (got my DPS up to a level where burning is the best option).

Idk about everyone else, but I am picturing the vAS exploit as something similar to this. And I must say that permabans seem really harsh for this.

If, however, it was more like a hack or bug to get outside the world, and hit the boss without him ever becoming active, that would be a little more severe. I think this is how the old vMoL exploit worked, and is worthy of some type of ban.

Good post.

And how many players here have joined groups who have used this strategy to defeat that boss? I know I sure have. I suspect many of these righteous posters here have done so as well.

So unless they immediately dropped their groups out of moral outrage and reported this exploit to ZOS a case could be made they should be indefinitely banned as well under this new standard that anyone who participates in an exploit deserves an immediate and permanent ban.

So I would caution people to think about the implications of what they are asking for.

I can't speak for the other posters here, although I have myself bailed on groups who were planning to snipe Rakkhat. The MoL situation was a bit of a grey area for a while, though, because at least on XB1 it was basically impossible to complete the Trial legitimately for 6+ months out of a year.

I can, however, speak for some of the people who were banned and I can tell you that they were the most notorious Rakkhat snipers on XBox. These dudes were selling snipe skin runs in zone chat in Craglorn pretty much every day. Every Band/Discord chat I'm in, when it was revealed who was banned, responded along the lines of: "wait, isn't [redacted name] the d*** selling snipe runs in Craglorn every day?"

Asgari · November 2017

Jeremy wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

The way i view it is, if you exploit in a way that only affects yourself like you managed to have dyes you shouldn't have, or multiple pets out than that is whatever.

However, in a game like this where you factor in advantages from exploits (having gear you normally wouldn't be able to obtain) than yes players need to be punished and time and time again ZOS has been too soft on exploiters.

I am very pleased to see them take a tough stance and stick with it. In PvE and PvP there is no place for exploiting and players who feel the need to do it just because it saved them some time or seemed harmless.

Bugs happen in any game that lead to some form of an exploit, using said bug for you advantage makes it an exploit and in return you should be punished.

Thank you zos.

So take away the gear and achievements they obtained by use of the exploit. That would be appropriate and fair as it relates to other players.

Kicking them off the game forever? That's like punishing petty theft with the death penalty.

Except they can just buy another copy and start over. The way ive always looked at it, is if you cheat once you are very likely to cheat again.

Jeremy · November 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

The way i view it is, if you exploit in a way that only affects yourself like you managed to have dyes you shouldn't have, or multiple pets out than that is whatever.

However, in a game like this where you factor in advantages from exploits (having gear you normally wouldn't be able to obtain) than yes players need to be punished and time and time again ZOS has been too soft on exploiters.

I am very pleased to see them take a tough stance and stick with it. In PvE and PvP there is no place for exploiting and players who feel the need to do it just because it saved them some time or seemed harmless.

Bugs happen in any game that lead to some form of an exploit, using said bug for you advantage makes it an exploit and in return you should be punished.

Thank you zos.

So take away the gear and achievements they obtained by use of the exploit. That would be appropriate and fair as it relates to other players.

Kicking them off the game forever? That's like punishing petty theft with the death penalty.

That wouldn’t be any punishment though. People would still try to get away with it. Worst case the exploit gets noticed and the items are gone. No big deal as you couldn’t get them legitimately in the first place. Best case nobody noticed and you keep them.

That’s what had happened in the past with those lousy 3 day suspensions at best. People were actually encouraged to exploit even more.

Well I see it as punishment enough for a taking advantage of a video game bug. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. This just isn't something I recognize as deserving of severe punishment. But then again I'm not a competitive video game player either.

idk · November 2017

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Just Yes or No. Votes are anonymous - let’s see what the majority is.

I believe it was too harsh.

Permanent bans should be reserved for those who use obvious cheats like hacking the game or using unauthorized third party programs. Exploiting unintended advantages in the existing game design isn't something I'm comfortable with the developers punishing players for - let alone banning them permanently from the game over.

It was an obvious exploit. There is zero difference between exploiting an obvious unintended situation as they did vs hacking the game. None.

They got what they deserved, hands down. Any decent MMO would ban them and any worthy guild would have kicked them as well. Zos is finally standing up to such a pathetic players.

Good riddance

I disagree.

A boss bugging out is not nearly the same as hacking the game or using some cheat program. This is blaming the players for what is essentially the developer's mistake.

I have seen players figure out a strategy to defeat bosses etc. in ways not intended by taking advantage of bugs or faulty design on probably every game I have ever played. This is something I imagine we all have done on occasion. I know I've certainly seen it done on every game I've ever played. And players usually take full advantage of these known tricks to beat bosses more easily until the developers get around to fixing them. And I never recall anyone being banned for it.

In any case; expecting your players to perform the duties of a bug tester and report any possible exploit to ZoS or to refrain from using them - expecting them even to go so far as to drop from any group using these strategies (especially if you had just paid a lot of gold to join one) is grossly unfair in my judgement and not something I could ever agree with.

As I've said countless times on this board, take away the items and achievements they obtained while using the exploit if you want. That would be sufficient to stand up to these "pathetic players" as you call them. But banning them outright - forever - for taking advantage of an in-game bug? That is really no way to treat your customers.

@Jeremy

You can disagree but your analogy is wrong.

The boss didn't bug out because the players were doing what seemed to be the intended way to fight the boss. The players bugged it out. They took deliberate action that was clearly done in a manner to purposefully get the boss to buy out so they could do the fight in a manner that is obviously far from intended.

I really cannot understand anyone with integrity of thought disagreeing the players involved should not receive a harsh punishment.

These types of players look for ways to exploit unintended aspects of the game. I don't understand who would be supportive of someone who plays like that unless it's something that's interesting to them as well.

Good riddance. Glad Zos is finally taking the trash to the curb.

Edit: as someone else pointed out above, on this page, one would have to be pretty dumb to know that they were not participating in an exploit. Again, good riddance. Any uostand My guild would have kicked them anyhow.

I'm aware that players caused the boss to bug out. But the boss still bugged out. So I don't understand why you think that makes my "analogy" wrong.

It wasn't an analogy anyway. It was simply a description of what occurred. It's not much different then the millions of other times players discover unintended ways through faulty design to exploit a boss battle and make it easier. Similar things have happened on literally every MMORPG I have ever played. And these exploits are almost always taken advantage of until the developers get around to fixing them. So if companies are going to start permanently banning players for taking advantage of these kind of oversights enjoy as they are going to be literally banning millions of players.

So I suspect there was something else involved here besides simply exploiting a bug. At least I hope there was.

Your analogy was merely the boss bugs out. There is a world of difference between a boss that just happens to bug out than an idiot, or group of idiots spending untold time trying to figure out how to bug out a boss some a safe location where nothing can damage them.

While they were idiots, and even bigger idiots because instead of reporting it they advertising it and sold access to it in game. To bad they did not have a little intelligence to understand it would not go unpunished.

That right there takes what they did to an entire new level. The dimwits get to enjoy the title and the skin and can continue to enjoy it from a far. They got they deserved.

eso_lags · November 2017

LiquidPony wrote: »

How do you know these were "first-time exploit offenders?"

Hint: a lot of them weren't.

I dont but how do you know they were???? Its more likely that most of them were not but thats besides the point.. The point is that anyone who was a 1st time offender shouldn't be perma banned.. Personally i think they should have perma banned the toon that did the glitch and then banned their accounts for a month.. At least for 1st time offenders. Obv take the skin and any weapons / achievements but thats more work.. Its easier for zos to just perma ban them since the angry mob wanted it anyway.

Look at it from the other side, you find a glitch like that a couple days after the update. Obv the right call is to report it and leave, but obv its enticing to some people if its right there in your face.. Ya it was stupid but people make mistakes.. Idk ive given my opinion, if zos thinks perma banning 1st time offenders of a glitch ( not a cheat engine or hack ) then thats their decision.. But I think perma banning anyone who is a 1st time offender for something that is not an outside program being used to cheat in the game is just too harsh, especially people who have spent thousands of dollars and hours in game.. And if they are repeat offenders then its on them.

akl77 · November 2017

Storymaster wrote: »

My only response is:

Cubagaming · November 2017

I actually know how the PS4 players that were banned in the first patch did it. The boss still had the lightning aoes attack the players. There really wasn't a safe areA. They didn't use snipe either, it was caltrops. I also like to point out that it was 10 people that did it on PS4 and they only did it once. They didn't say nothing to anyone else, didn't get on Facebook or text chat to sell the skins or nothing. Yet, people group them with the xbox players who took a bigger advantage of this exploit. Some of those people in that group also was the first time they did something like that. They also helped the PS4 community more than some other end game players. That community is cancer and literally aids combined. So I do believe that a permaban was too much.

Morbash · November 2017

Cpt_Teemo · November 2017

Cubagaming wrote: »

I actually know how the PS4 players that were banned in the first patch did it. The boss still had the lightning aoes attack the players. There really wasn't a safe areA. They didn't use snipe either, it was caltrops. I also like to point out that it was 10 people that did it on PS4 and they only did it once. They didn't say nothing to anyone else, didn't get on Facebook or text chat to sell the skins or nothing. Yet, people group them with the xbox players who took a bigger advantage of this exploit. Some of those people in that group also was the first time they did something like that. They also helped the PS4 community more than some other end game players. That community is cancer and literally aids combined. So I do believe that a permaban was too much.

Even doing it once and knowing full well what your doing doesn't matter, once, twice, or multiple times after that all the same consequences to MMO's as it should be.

Mureel · November 2017

itzTJ wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

How do you know these were "first-time exploit offenders?"

Hint: a lot of them weren't.

I dont but how do you know they were????

starkerealm · November 2017

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Does anyone else remember the old cheese method where everyone would stand on the island in the back of Fire Maw's room in COA2, back when that was considered the newest, most difficult content? The boss could not hit anyone, and the adds could not get to you. It did seem semi intentional though, since there was a bridge leading up to that rock/island. I think it was later fixed, but I have not attempted it in a long time (got my DPS up to a level where burning is the best option).

Idk about everyone else, but I am picturing the vAS exploit as something similar to this. And I must say that permabans seem really harsh for this.

If, however, it was more like a hack or bug to get outside the world, and hit the boss without him ever becoming active, that would be a little more severe. I think this is how the old vMoL exploit worked, and is worthy of some type of ban.

This was an, "outside the geometry," exploit. Firing "through" a solid object if I remember correctly.

morrowjen · November 2017

Can anyone give those of us out of the loop a short version of what happened?