Block cost reduction adjustment in the upcoming patch. Please Review!

jdmoonan · November 2017

As most of the pvp community knows I am Jdmoonan The Fire Mage and I only play Mag Dk. I recently looked at the upcoming adjustments you are working on. I am concerned with the block cost adjustment. Sword and Board Mag Dk was already hit very hard in the Morrowind patch with the block and sustain nerf. I fear that with this next adjustment you might make it nearly impossible to play, so I wanted to give my input on what I think might be some potential fixes to the perma block stam tank problem in the current meta using Seventh Legion Brute and/or Fury. One fix I was thinking would be the obvious one which would be to nerf seventh legion and fury as they are over performing and giving heavy armor stam just way to much damage. The second would be instead of adjusting block cost how about reduce the amount of damage one can block, this would not only help to discourage the stam block build but also make sets like footman viable again. Please just keep in mind that by nerfing block you would be indirectly nerfing a class that is already hurting extremely bad in the game as a whole. Mag Dk isn't used in PVE at all and only the elite players of Mag Dk can even play the class in PVP without being completely ignored in most cases. Just some feed back from a long time Mag Dk player and theory crafter!

Quantum_V · November 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Tired of perma blockers in this game . It's time for a fix .

Just zerg them down, Rohammed.

CyrusArya · November 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Another nerf to consider is bringing stamina weapon heavy attacks in line with staff heavy attacks. Currently staff heavy attacks take way longer to complete and are therefore way riskier to use as a core sustain source.

The main issues here are that snb builds can pop snb ult and heavy attack with impunity, and that snb heavy attacks have such a short channel time that snb builds can weave them into regular rotations (without ulting) without much risk. If you've played a heavy armor snb DK or Warden (don't worry, I have), then you'll know 1) how crucial heavy attacks are to your sustain, 2) how hard it is for your opponent to stop you from completing them, and 3) how less risky they are to fire off during combat than staff heavy attacks are for magicka classes.

Just some thoughts.

Absolutely not. You criticize moonman for seeing a problem with blocking then suggesting a nerf to an unrelated issue, but then go on to kinda do the same thing. “Blocking is over performing, let’s nerf dual wield and 2h stam builds”. Stam heavy attacks are quicker because stam builds have to stay in melee range to do basic attacks in the first place. Meanwhile, ranged staff classes can deal close to 100% of their damage from range. Especially something like, idk, a mageblade that can spam cripple and maintain distance. Furthermore, resto staff greatly outperforms any other weapon type in terms of sustain. The two playstyles are not parallels that their mechanics should be standardized.

This suggestion is terrible. Balance between stamina and magicka builds is at a very good place right now, but balance is precarious. Your suggestion might do slight good to address one singular aspect of block builds, but totally skew overall balance for builds that aren’t even related to blocking what so ever. Dual wield and 2h specs are not over performing, and they are who your suggestion hurts the most. Far more so than sword and board heavies.

Drummerx04 · November 2017

jdmoonan wrote: »

As most of the pvp community knows I am Jdmoonan The Fire Mage and I only play Mag Dk. I recently looked at the upcoming adjustments you are working on. I am concerned with the block cost adjustment. Sword and Board Mag Dk was already hit very hard in the Morrowind patch with the block and sustain nerf. I fear that with this next adjustment you might make it nearly impossible to play, so I wanted to give my input on what I think might be some potential fixes to the perma block stam tank problem in the current meta using Seventh Legion Brute and/or Fury. One fix I was thinking would be the obvious one which would be to nerf seventh legion and fury as they are over performing and giving heavy armor stam just way to much damage. The second would be instead of adjusting block cost how about reduce the amount of damage one can block, this would not only help to discourage the stam block build but also make sets like footman viable again. Please just keep in mind that by nerfing block you would be indirectly nerfing a class that is already hurting extremely bad in the game as a whole. Mag Dk isn't used in PVE at all and only the elite players of Mag Dk can even play the class in PVP without being completely ignored in most cases. Just some feed back from a long time Mag Dk player and theory crafter!

WHAT? Nerf the thing that is the source of the problem? Obviously we need to nerf sorc shield stacking by making all damage shields last only 1 second instead! If the shield disappears before you can cast a second shield, then BOOM shield stacking solved!

DID I DO GOOD, WROBEL?

This "nerf the things in ways that make sense" dribble is nothing short of Heresy in the House of Wrobel, and you should be ashamed for going against His glorious vision.

SirAndy · November 2017

Drummerx04 wrote: »

DID I DO GOOD, WROBEL?

You do realize that Wrobel is a Sorc fanboy, yes? His Sorc shield "nerf" would involve making them last twice as long, purging up to 5 negative effects on the caster while dealing 20k AOE damage every 1 second while the shields are up.

Please don't give that guy any more ideas on how to "balance" classes, it's already bad enough ...

jdmoonan wrote: »

As most of the pvp community knows I am Jdmoonan The Fire Mage

PS: And who the hell is "Jdmoonan" and why should i know him/her/it?

starkerealm · November 2017

SirAndy wrote: »

jdmoonan wrote: »

As most of the pvp community knows I am Jdmoonan The Fire Mage

PS: And who the hell is "Jdmoonan" and why should i know him/her/it?

Clearly, he's JD Moon-an, the feared An of the Moon, come to Cyrodiil to do... uh... stuff.

wildbear247 · November 2017

If ZOS does make some adjustments to block for PvP I hope they drop it under the PvP Battle Spirit umbrella. I mostly enjoy PvP these days, but to keep the game more enjoyable for the PvE side I definitely think ZOS needs to prevent PvP-centric changes from bleeding over into PvE.

usmcjdking · November 2017

300 degree block raidus or NO CHANGE AT ALL.

xRIVALENx · November 2017

Are there additional changes coming in the near future to block cost? Haven't seen anything being mentioned recently.

Publius_Scipio · November 2017

Are these upcoming changes currently listed by ZOS somewhere?

And I have heard of you Moonan. I am a close friend of your friend the fish. I believe his name is trout.

makreth · November 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

300 degree block raidus or NO CHANGE AT ALL.

should be 180....

Feanor · November 2017

SirAndy wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

DID I DO GOOD, WROBEL?

You do realize that Wrobel is a Sorc fanboy, yes? His Sorc shield "nerf" would involve making them last twice as long, purging up to 5 negative effects on the caster while dealing 20k AOE damage every 1 second while the shields are up.

Please don't give that guy any more ideas on how to "balance" classes, it's already bad enough ...

jdmoonan wrote: »

As most of the pvp community knows I am Jdmoonan The Fire Mage

PS: And who the hell is "Jdmoonan" and why should i know him/her/it?

That’s probably why their duration was reduced from 20 to 6 seconds. Fanboi work at its best.

Tan9oSuccka · November 2017

PvP strikes again? Great.

Yes. Let’s make PVE tanking even less appealing to do than it already is.

Kanar · November 2017

Instead of nerfing the heavy armor WD sets, they should make them medium armor instead. If heavy is not supposed to be used for weapon damage (wrath nerf) then why are so many good WD sets heavy armor?

Kartalin · November 2017

SirAndy wrote: »

jdmoonan wrote: »

As most of the pvp community knows I am Jdmoonan The Fire Mage

PS: And who the hell is "Jdmoonan" and why should i know him/her/it?

A solo permablocker in Cyrodiil I think? That's what he tries to do against our group at least -- charge in, hold block, and see how long he can keep blocking before dying because he's certainly not killing any of us.

techprince · November 2017

Wrong thread.

RinaldoGandolphi · November 2017

The answer to the block problem is very simple:

“Fully charged heavy attacks from
Any weapon break block, stagger the target, and set them off balance for 5 secs and you take the full damage of the attack”

This is how it worked in Oblivion, Skyrim for sure been too long since I played Morrowind my memory is foggy.

Heavy attacks should also be bash able again. This will put some real risk on people who want to hold down their right mouse button yet provide solid counter play.

There should also be no immunity on block breaking, if you permablock and I power attack you to break it and off balance you, if you go right back to block my power attack should break it again.

These issues can’t be solved by changing costs or certain unblockable stuns tied to CC immunity, it’s solved by putting in proper combat mechanics that are hard counters to certain other mechanics.

Damage shields had this solved with Shield Breaker, Unresistable damage enchants, and Shattering Blows

Dodge had this solved with beam attacks such as Soul Assault and Radiant Oppression and undodgable AOE like Dawnbreaker and Dragon Leap

Shattering blows most certainly should increase damage against blocking targets and combined with heavy attacks breaking block like they have in every other recent TES title, we can finally be done with revisiting block every few months. Just my 2 cents

br0steen · November 2017

jdmoonan wrote: »

Mag Dk isn't used in PVE at all and only the elite players of Mag Dk can even play the class in PVP without being completely ignored in most cases. Just some feed back from a long time Mag Dk player and theory crafter!

Sweet, I didn't realize I'm an elite mag dk player

Waffennacht · November 2017

Hey said they would look into adjusting how cost reduction works on the source.

Probably make it multiplicative rather than how it is now.

But they haven't specified any changes

Ragnaroek93 · November 2017

WTF, can you PLEASE STOP complaining about stamina Dk?! This is beyond ridiculous, you "poor" mag dks are in a very strong spot in battlegrounds and duels (guess what, you can't be the best in everything), yet you are complaining about a class which is garbage at everything (stam Dk). No, your mag Dk wasn't nerfed to death, it's currently stronger than it was in the past, go play stamina Dk if you want to know how it feels to play a *** class.

Btw, sword and shield is overperforming on almost every class.

ak_pvp · November 2017

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

WTF, can you PLEASE STOP complaining about stamina Dk?! This is beyond ridiculous, you "poor" mag dks are in a very strong spot in battlegrounds and duels (guess what, you can't be the best in everything), yet you are complaining about a class which is garbage at everything (stam Dk). No, your mag Dk wasn't nerfed to death, it's currently stronger than it was in the past, go play stamina Dk if you want to know how it feels to play a *** class.

Btw, sword and shield is overperforming on almost every class.

You know MDK is worst class for open world and second worst class for group utility. No heals, low damage, everything it can do a sorc can do better. Better players than you or I think the same.

StamDK provides the worst utility, but shines in 1vx with fury/7th, and the whole general meta build. The truth is both DKs suffer from similar issues.

"No, your mag Dk wasn't nerfed to death, it's currently stronger than it was in the past"

Worse sustain, hit hardest with sustain nerfs, worse wings, took more nerfs with blocking, and just lately lost our final defense vs ranged.

You don't main MDK.

ak_pvp · November 2017

2x post.

wheem_ESO · November 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

WTF, can you PLEASE STOP complaining about stamina Dk?! This is beyond ridiculous, you "poor" mag dks are in a very strong spot in battlegrounds and duels (guess what, you can't be the best in everything), yet you are complaining about a class which is garbage at everything (stam Dk). No, your mag Dk wasn't nerfed to death, it's currently stronger than it was in the past, go play stamina Dk if you want to know how it feels to play a *** class.

Btw, sword and shield is overperforming on almost every class.

You know MDK is worst class for open world and second worst class for group utility. No heals, low damage, everything it can do a sorc can do better. Better players than you or I think the same.

StamDK provides the worst utility, but shines in 1vx with fury/7th, and the whole general meta build. The truth is both DKs suffer from similar issues.

"No, your mag Dk wasn't nerfed to death, it's currently stronger than it was in the past"

Worse sustain, hit hardest with sustain nerfs, worse wings, took more nerfs with blocking, and just lately lost our final defense vs ranged.

You don't main MDK.

Low damage on Mag DK?!?! I mean sure, they're not pulling out a burst of >= 20k damage from stealth in <= 2 seconds like a Stam NB, but Mag DK damage is absolutely not low.

I'm sympathetic to Mag DK needing some sort of survivability and/or mobility improvements when/if permablocking (or "pseudo permablocking") finally gets a nerf, but it's most definitely a nerf that needs to happen.

Ragnaroek93 · November 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

WTF, can you PLEASE STOP complaining about stamina Dk?! This is beyond ridiculous, you "poor" mag dks are in a very strong spot in battlegrounds and duels (guess what, you can't be the best in everything), yet you are complaining about a class which is garbage at everything (stam Dk). No, your mag Dk wasn't nerfed to death, it's currently stronger than it was in the past, go play stamina Dk if you want to know how it feels to play a *** class.

Btw, sword and shield is overperforming on almost every class.

You know MDK is worst class for open world and second worst class for group utility. No heals, low damage, everything it can do a sorc can do better. Better players than you or I think the same.

StamDK provides the worst utility, but shines in 1vx with fury/7th, and the whole general meta build. The truth is both DKs suffer from similar issues.

"No, your mag Dk wasn't nerfed to death, it's currently stronger than it was in the past"

Worse sustain, hit hardest with sustain nerfs, worse wings, took more nerfs with blocking, and just lately lost our final defense vs ranged.

You don't main MDK.

You ONLY see nerfs to your class, ignore ALL buffs to your class and also ignore ALL nerfs to other classes. Hell, I would love to see how *** overpowered mag Dk would be if ZOS would implemented your suggestions. It's pointless to argue with you, you are the best and you have always right.

Also please stop complaining about sorcs in every post, it's completely embarassing after all the nerfs sorc received.

Edit: And yes, in PvP (compared to other classes) mag Dk is much better than it was one year ago.

arkansas_ESO · November 2017

FWIW I can tank zergs on magic DK with Reactive and Desert Rose. Draconis does it every night with a different build. This isn't just something stam DK does, or just something you can do in Fury or Seventh Legion.

Morgul667 · November 2017

lol

everybody says sorc but all i see is DK

well DK and a few sorc / templars here and there

ak_pvp · November 2017

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

WTF, can you PLEASE STOP complaining about stamina Dk?! This is beyond ridiculous, you "poor" mag dks are in a very strong spot in battlegrounds and duels (guess what, you can't be the best in everything), yet you are complaining about a class which is garbage at everything (stam Dk). No, your mag Dk wasn't nerfed to death, it's currently stronger than it was in the past, go play stamina Dk if you want to know how it feels to play a *** class.

Btw, sword and shield is overperforming on almost every class.

You know MDK is worst class for open world and second worst class for group utility. No heals, low damage, everything it can do a sorc can do better. Better players than you or I think the same.

StamDK provides the worst utility, but shines in 1vx with fury/7th, and the whole general meta build. The truth is both DKs suffer from similar issues.

"No, your mag Dk wasn't nerfed to death, it's currently stronger than it was in the past"

Worse sustain, hit hardest with sustain nerfs, worse wings, took more nerfs with blocking, and just lately lost our final defense vs ranged.

You don't main MDK.

You ONLY see nerfs to your class, ignore ALL buffs to your class and also ignore ALL nerfs to other classes. Hell, I would love to see how *** overpowered mag Dk would be if ZOS would implemented your suggestions. It's pointless to argue with you, you are the best and you have always right.

Also please stop complaining about sorcs in every post, it's completely embarassing after all the nerfs sorc received.

Edit: And yes, in PvP (compared to other classes) mag Dk is much better than it was one year ago.

Rather than REEEEEing like a baby, read my comments, and learn to read whilst you are at it.

I want shields nerfed because with them, sorc had everything. Now it's lost burst, but shields are still OP.

I also think the NB templar and sdk nerfs are bad too. So don't come up with ***, since you obviously don't know what you are talking about

MagDK is in no way better than last year. We had great sustain with desert rose+black rose. OK damage. And useful counters against range.

There has been the talons buff to the other morph. Which is cool. Cost reductions, but post the sustain nerf that hit DKs hardest.

I'd take 1yr DK over current DK.

Qbiken · November 2017

Kanar wrote: »

Instead of nerfing the heavy armor WD sets, they should make them medium armor instead. If heavy is not supposed to be used for weapon damage (wrath nerf) then why are so many good WD sets heavy armor?

Care to elaborate where this have been stated by ZOS???

Wrobel or anyone in the ZOS team has never said (at least what I know) that heavy shouldn´t be used for weapon damage....

Merlin13KAGL · November 2017

What proposed changes (link) ? I how exactly does it affect DK more than any other class??

NBrookus · November 2017

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/378976/monthly-combat-update-november

They say they are "investigating permablocking."

ak_pvp · November 2017

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

What proposed changes (link) ? I how exactly does it affect DK more than any other class??

DKs have only blocking as a defense. Wings is rip.

Templars have their extra healing and purge. Nbs have cloak for stealth and mobility, sorcs have speed and shield, wardens have a variety.

Rohaus · November 2017

You guys wanting Block to be nerfed even further have to be zergers... the game already is difficult enough to 1vX... heck, even Kodi runs with others half the time to actually finish people off and it isn’t because of blocking... its because of broken healing in the game.

Blocking is fine the way it is... perma blockers can’t do any damage... not sure why that is so hard to understand.

idk · November 2017

SirAndy wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

DID I DO GOOD, WROBEL?

You do realize that Wrobel is a Sorc fanboy, yes? His Sorc shield "nerf" would involve making them last twice as long, purging up to 5 negative effects on the caster while dealing 20k AOE damage every 1 second while the shields are up.

Please don't give that guy any more ideas on how to "balance" classes, it's already bad enough ...

jdmoonan wrote: »

As most of the pvp community knows I am Jdmoonan The Fire Mage

PS: And who the hell is "Jdmoonan" and why should i know him/her/it?

You do realize Wrobel already nerfed Sorc shields uptime significantly. It's why they last 6 second. Down from 20-30 seconds. Old news.

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Block cost reduction adjustment in the upcoming patch. Please Review!

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