Uncracked Transmution Geode - ZOS, stop fixing RNG with more RNG!

idk · October 2017

Yes, it is a very poor design that one can get 1 crystal from a green quality geode and also get one crystal from a purple quality node. Makes it frustrating when that happens.

Standardizing it as OP suggested would be a grand idea, however, Zos likes it's RNG.

MissBizz · October 2017

Insandros wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Insandros wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Insandros wrote: »

so you're whining cuz you got 8 crytals in one day? they say it's now 50 crystal for a transmute now, so if you get 5-8 crystals per days, in less than 8 days you got your pefect traited weapons.... now, do the maths how much time it took you to get a specific wepaon in a specific trait.. ask people who ran vMA, or any trials or any dungeons how many runs or time/months they passed on it? Now, sit back, and realy, enjoy the crystals. And BTW they didn't take the crystal out to fix an RNG, but to give you an alternative way t get what you want, key word here being an ALTERNATIVE, not the primary way... so i still will aime more with crystals than farming a single dungeon.

EDIT: As to let you know, if you run on a single toon, 1 vet Random, it gives you, guranted at least 2 crystals, you run the 3 pledges, another 3 crystals, so on a single toon you are guranteed 5 crystals, not talking about RNG for more than 1 on containers, if you do pledges on other toons and daily, anotehr 5 etc.. in other words, no matter what, just having one toon on the worste case scenario, you will get your perfect trait weapon, undaunted helmet or shoulders in 10 days, worste can happens.. i never got something i wanted that fast as looting them in dungeon. But i cannot blame people that want to be geared perfectly on all toons in one day.

@Insandros What? I received a Fine (green) transmutation geode from my vet random today. Double checked the video that we did vet random and that's what we all received. What geode did you get for vet random?

[edit] Fine green transmutation geodes give only one crystal, there is no range.

@MissBizz What i meant is, if you run a random vet for your first time/day, you are guanranteed 2 crystals (1 for random vet you always get + 1 for first random/day of the Worthy (your green mailed Geode) I simply listed the minimal crystals you can get by running your 3 pledges and a random per day on a toon. That was listed the guaranted minimum you can get by these accessible to everyone activities, these can of course change if trials are ran etc... but listed the mister and misses all access and easy geodes.

Once we completed or random vet dungeon our count only went up by one. Did one drop from the final boss by chance for you? That's only a chance. Out of 3 vet dungeons and 2 normals, the group I ran with never had a crystal drop from a final boss, as it's RNG and only a chance. So you only have a chance at 2, you are gaurenteed one.

@MissBizz
Weird then i got really lucky and should feel thanful for it i presume, cuz all random vet i've done i got a purple uncracked geodes on last boss, even i was pissed cuz Veli didn't gave me a motif but the geodes, at one point i never believed at RNG as i'Ve seen in Alcast video running Vet random guaranted one and got them on each randoms i've ran, maybe 4, only second normal random i tried to see if they also gave some but i never got anything after the first daily random on normal which gave a blue geode (1 to 3 crystals), but random vet i always got one geode, guess i was lucky last night. i'll try later tonight after work, but i don'T believe RNGesus loves me that much, never happened before But i got to admit all pruple geodes mostly only gave me 1 crystal, 2 of them had more than 1 so my luck stoped there.

Yeah we had ran a random normal, random vet (different character from random normal), normal pledge, vet pledge and vet hm pledge, just so we could see what you get for each setup. Interesting you picked up a purple. Looks like more random vet tonight for me to see!

mertusta · October 2017

I just thought this will end farming but nope. Have to farm more..

Kahina · October 2017

mertusta wrote: »

I just thought this will end farming but nope. Have to farm more..

Why would they end farming? The entire game, and every game like it, is built around farming. You're always farming something. It's what keeps you coming back. This is starting to look like it's far too easily farmed.

EDIT: Your, You're.

tommalmm · October 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

tommalmm wrote: »

Actually, I find that the transmute crystals are WAAAAY too easy to get. It was meant to give you a possibility to get your desired trait when RNG was not in your favor, while instead it might become the easiest way to do it. Just look how easy it is to get the crystals (my own example):

First rewards for the worthy per character per day is guaranteed to give you uncracked geode (5-25 crystals).
Seven day campaign end rewards (no leaderboard) - 10 crystals
vMA leaderboard - 10 crystals
each vMA run - 5 (or 4? I don't remember) crystals (not worth it unless it is a leaderboard run)
Daily random - 1 crystal per character
Daily pledge x3 per character - uncracked geode (1-10 crystals)
Dungeon boss - a chance to get a crystal.

Basically a few minutes in Cyrodiil per each character is the fastest way to farm crystals. You don't even have to be good or prepared, just be there at the right spot. Then the campaign rewards once per week, then leaderboards (PVP, trials, vMA), then vMA/trials themselves (it takes longer to cmplete trial), then pledges, randoms and dungeons.

One evening and I've got more than I actually needed. True, I had to alter my daily habits a bit (I never dive into cyrodiil on all my characters), but it's WAAAAY too easy to get them. In some cases I've got lucky and got a lot of crystals, in others I've got the minimal amount.

But, at the same time, people that play PVP mostly (not me, I play PVP every now and then), won't have to spend that much time farming in PVE anymore, which is a good thing, IMO.

vMA leaderboard is 5, not 10

Ah, yes, sorry. And each run reward is 4, not five. Still, PVP is the place to farm them, as long as you have a lot of characters. PVE is better if you have only one or two (any further RFTW for a particular character the same day give only a chance to get a geode). Anyway, I was able to get ~80 of them in 4 hours yesterday. I'm sure there are people that got more luck or are more efficient at farming.

krachall · October 2017

Im just happy to see someone got a Fiver! My three vet crystals have been 1, 1, and 1.

Nice to know it’s at least possible to get more than 1

BuddyAces · October 2017

Holy crap on a cracker, you folks will literally complain about anything. Here ZOS goes and takes away like 80 percent of the grind by having you just have to get the gear to drop now. Then, they give it to us instead of locking it behind the crown store. They didn't need to do this. Every mmo has grinds. As much as I hated grinding gear before, I understood why.

Good job here ZOS. Thank you for this. Ignore the whiners.

ookami007 · October 2017

I did 12 pledges/randoms last night and got no more than 2 crystals and most of the time 1 crystal.

idk · October 2017

mertusta wrote: »

I just thought this will end farming but nope. Have to farm more..

The idea was to make farming less of a PIA by reducing the RNG. Instead they made the new system for reducing the RNG another RNG.

Out of 3 purple geodes yesterday I gained 5 crystals total out of a possible 30. OP's idea is much much re solid and significantly more appealing than what Zos put together.

Scootter · October 2017

Vanzen wrote: »

Easiest imho is pvp first reward of the worthy each day. Already got 20 crystals with 2 chars in half an hour ...

I second this. I don't even pvp much and I went in repaired walls for 18 minutes and bam had my geode from reward of the worthy. It had 4 crystals.

s7732425ub17_ESO · October 2017

You don't need to grind these. Just doing what you normally do in game will easily get you 50 crystals/week or more. I know some people who are already maxed out, and the patch has only been out for one day. Retraiting gear is not supposed to be something you are supposed to do often. It's like resetting skills- doing it every once in a while is fine. But if you are resetting your skills every day, there's something wrong.

NyassaV · October 2017

I did HM pledges and only got 1 from each and even did a random vet and got 1? Or 5? IDK and then I did PvP and got 10

Integral1900 · October 2017

Why the heck is pvp getting so many? My six alts have chewed through a total of twelve pledges and got absolutely nothing at all

I’m sure someone said they were guaranteed at least one

Recremen · October 2017

Honestly I can't even be mad. It's one guaranteed crystal. Yeah there's RNG, but you can know the bare minimum amount of time needed to invest to get one transmute and consider anything else a bonus. I respect that some people still feel it takes too long for them, but for me it seems, at the moment, to be about right.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · October 2017

So the solution to grinding for traits is grinding for crystals?

Honestly, who DIDN'T see that one coming a mile away?

Teeba_Shei · October 2017

It isn't the amount of crystals dropping that is bothering me, but the huge range pretending like I actually have a chance to get a lot of crystals. You would assume that if a geode drops 4 to 25 then on average you would get about 14 or 15, but the reality appears to be a really low chance of getting a large number of crystals. The chance is like 90% to get the lowest number of crystals and like .1% to get 25 crystals in my experience thus far.

Izaki · October 2017

Insandros wrote: »

so you're whining cuz you got 8 crytals in one day? they say it's now 50 crystal for a transmute now, so if you get 5-8 crystals per days, in less than 8 days you got your pefect traited weapons.... now, do the maths how much time it took you to get a specific wepaon in a specific trait.. ask people who ran vMA, or any trials or any dungeons how many runs or time/months they passed on it? Now, sit back, and realy, enjoy the crystals. And BTW they didn't take the crystal out to fix an RNG, but to give you an alternative way t get what you want, key word here being an ALTERNATIVE, not the primary way... so i still will aime more with crystals than farming a single dungeon.

EDIT: As to let you know, if you run on a single toon, 1 vet Random, it gives you, guranted at least 2 crystals, you run the 3 pledges, another 3 crystals, so on a single toon you are guranteed 5 crystals, not talking about RNG for more than 1 on containers, if you do pledges on other toons and daily, anotehr 5 etc.. in other words, no matter what, just having one toon on the worste case scenario, you will get your perfect trait weapon, undaunted helmet or shoulders in 10 days, worste can happens.. i never got something i wanted that fast as looting them in dungeon. But i cannot blame people that want to be geared perfectly on all toons in one day.

I enjoy vMA so getting the traits I wanted on the weapons I wanted wasn't a tedious task for me at all.

dpencil1 · October 2017

Just chiming in as another positive voice in the midst of the usual complaining because people can't get things fast enough.

Good job ZOS. The Transmute system was executed very well.

NBrookus · October 2017

The overall drop rate seems reasonable, but I totally agree with the OP. Take the RNG/gambling out of it. Just drop the crystals at the average rate, or at least reduce the range of RNG.

xaraan · October 2017

ZoS has fully embraced the gambling meta from game RNG in almost every aspect to crown crates. It sucks people in in some ways, forces players in in other ways and is just a lazy way to 'balance' things.

Recremen · October 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

So the solution to grinding for traits is grinding for crystals?

Honestly, who DIDN'T see that one coming a mile away?

@Yolokin_Swagonborn

There's a huge difference between something that's a guaranteed drop and something that might literally never drop. And it's not like they can just hand out ideal-trait gear for free and still have a functioning MMO. Some minimum level of grinding will always be necessary to keep pop up, the only problem I find is when that grind becomes overly costly for an average person's time budget.

With the transmutation system we can determine the minimum amount of time necessary to get a piece of existing gear into its ideal trait. This is truly incredible, a massive paradigm shift. We have been given the opportunity to budget our time more precisely, leaving us a better opportunity to decide for ourselves if a certain gear chase is worth it, rather than letting RNG and attrition be our guiding star. We might argue that 50 transmutation stones is too much, but it's categorically better for the majority of players to at least have the system exist.

Mystrius_Archaion · October 2017

And there were so many posters on PTS forums saying "it will be fine with a slow grind". How wrong they were.
How many agrees is the first post up to now?

Mojmir · October 2017

Cradle of shadows, vet HM, 1 crystal. Not how it should be

Urza1234 · October 2017

Day 2

Ir0nB34r wrote: »

Insandros wrote: »

so you're whining cuz you got 8 crytals in one day? they say it's now 50 crystal for a transmute now, so if you get 5-8 crystals per days, in less than 8 days you got your pefect traited weapons.... now, do the maths how much time it took you to get a specific wepaon in a specific trait.. ask people who ran vMA, or any trials or any dungeons how many runs or time/months they passed on it? Now, sit back, and realy, enjoy the crystals. And BTW they didn't take the crystal out to fix an RNG, but to give you an alternative way t get what you want, key word here being an ALTERNATIVE, not the primary way... so i still will aime more with crystals than farming a single dungeon.

EDIT: As to let you know, if you run on a single toon, 1 vet Random, it gives you, guranted at least 2 crystals, you run the 3 pledges, another 3 crystals, so on a single toon you are guranteed 5 crystals, not talking about RNG for more than 1 on containers, if you do pledges on other toons and daily, anotehr 5 etc.. in other words, no matter what, just having one toon on the worste case scenario, you will get your perfect trait weapon, undaunted helmet or shoulders in 10 days, worste can happens.. i never got something i wanted that fast as looting them in dungeon. But i cannot blame people that want to be geared perfectly on all toons in one day.

This was incredibly insightful. People saw the Transmutation system as a way out of a grind. That's not at all what it is for. As others have mentioned it is a CAP on the amount you have to grind. You are receiving additional rewards for content you were already doing. This wasn't ever supposed to be easy mode, just an end to the grinding road.

For example, I did not want to farm vet bloodroot for a BiS earthgore helm trait. I'd rather eat dirt than do that. But with Transmutation the amount of times I have to run vet bloodroot is exactly once (assuming others will give you the helm type you need) and I will continue running other far easier dungeons to transmute the trait on that earthgore.

They would rather complain.

MasterSpatula · October 2017

Am I missing something some of these responders are getting? Pretty sure the OP's issue wasn't the number of crystals he's getting but rather the implementation of another lazy, sloppy, garbage RNG system into the game.

(Actually, I don't honestly think I'm missing anything. I think you all know exactly what he's saying, and you just want a chance to feel superior, so you strawman him into "asking for everything handed to him" or "wanting it all on Day 1." It's not what he said, and I'm positive you know it.)

Imza · October 2017

Zos did NOT have to give you this system...

stop complaining and start playing

Recremen · October 2017

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Am I missing something some of these responders are getting? Pretty sure the OP's issue wasn't the number of crystals he's getting but rather the implementation of another lazy, sloppy, garbage RNG system into the game.

(Actually, I don't honestly think I'm missing anything. I think you all know exactly what he's saying, and you just want a chance to feel superior, so you strawman him into "asking for everything handed to him" or "wanting it all on Day 1." It's not what he said, and I'm positive you know it.)

@MasterSpatula

It's not sloppy or lazy at all. In fact, it looks incredibly well-engineered.

MasterSpatula · October 2017

Recremen wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Am I missing something some of these responders are getting? Pretty sure the OP's issue wasn't the number of crystals he's getting but rather the implementation of another lazy, sloppy, garbage RNG system into the game.

(Actually, I don't honestly think I'm missing anything. I think you all know exactly what he's saying, and you just want a chance to feel superior, so you strawman him into "asking for everything handed to him" or "wanting it all on Day 1." It's not what he said, and I'm positive you know it.)

@MasterSpatula

It's not sloppy or lazy at all. In fact, it looks incredibly well-engineered.

Not what was meant, and once again, it seems highly improbable you don't already know that.

It's not the implementation of the RNG system that's the problem, it's putting in RNG-based rewards in the first place. They're so committed to bad that even when they put in a system to bypass bad, they put some of that bad in it. RNG grinds are lazy, uncreative, and bad design, and they just can't let go. I'm actually a little embarrassed for them.

Recremen · October 2017

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Am I missing something some of these responders are getting? Pretty sure the OP's issue wasn't the number of crystals he's getting but rather the implementation of another lazy, sloppy, garbage RNG system into the game.

(Actually, I don't honestly think I'm missing anything. I think you all know exactly what he's saying, and you just want a chance to feel superior, so you strawman him into "asking for everything handed to him" or "wanting it all on Day 1." It's not what he said, and I'm positive you know it.)

@MasterSpatula

It's not sloppy or lazy at all. In fact, it looks incredibly well-engineered.

Not what was meant, and once again, it seems highly improbable you don't already know that.

It's not the implementation of the RNG system that's the problem, it's putting in RNG-based rewards in the first place. They're so committed to bad that even when they put in a system to bypass bad, they put some of that bad in it. RNG grinds are lazy, uncreative, and bad design, and they just can't let go. I'm actually a little embarrassed for them.

@MasterSpatula

No, that's actually specifically what I'm talking about. I don't mean it's well-engineered from a coding perspective (although it seems to be that, too), I am saying that it's well-engineered conceptually as well. It corrects the problem (too much reliance on RNG for getting end-game gear, a system that inevitably doesn't deliver for a large segment of the population and has a chance to never deliver) with a clever solution that guarantees getting best-trait for your existing gear, just after investing more in various group content. Now all you need to worry about is getting your armor to drop in the weight you like, which while it's a shame that's still pure RNG it's so unimaginably unlikely that you won't get it within a reasonable number of runs as to be not worth addressing.

The only "RNG" component about the new transmutation system is the number of gems you get per geode, and the geode drop chance itself if you deliberately choose to not use one of the guaranteed drop methods. This is literally mathematically incomparable to a pure RNG system like how gear used to be. You are always guaranteed a crystal from a geode, and you have to work really hard to play in a way such that you don't get a guaranteed geode. This is because they did a great job making sure you have a guaranteed drop from multiple styles of play. Guaranteed methods exist for group dungeons, trial content, and PvP. The only possible point of contention is if you think it will still take to long on average given your time budget, whereas before the point of contention was that it not only might take to long to get your ideal gear, you might literally never obtain it no matter how many times you try.

MasterSpatula · October 2017

Recremen wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Am I missing something some of these responders are getting? Pretty sure the OP's issue wasn't the number of crystals he's getting but rather the implementation of another lazy, sloppy, garbage RNG system into the game.

(Actually, I don't honestly think I'm missing anything. I think you all know exactly what he's saying, and you just want a chance to feel superior, so you strawman him into "asking for everything handed to him" or "wanting it all on Day 1." It's not what he said, and I'm positive you know it.)

@MasterSpatula

It's not sloppy or lazy at all. In fact, it looks incredibly well-engineered.

Not what was meant, and once again, it seems highly improbable you don't already know that.

It's not the implementation of the RNG system that's the problem, it's putting in RNG-based rewards in the first place. They're so committed to bad that even when they put in a system to bypass bad, they put some of that bad in it. RNG grinds are lazy, uncreative, and bad design, and they just can't let go. I'm actually a little embarrassed for them.

@MasterSpatula

No, that's actually specifically what I'm talking about. I don't mean it's well-engineered from a coding perspective (although it seems to be that, too), I am saying that it's well-engineered conceptually as well. It corrects the problem (too much reliance on RNG for getting end-game gear, a system that inevitably doesn't deliver for a large segment of the population and has a chance to never deliver) with a clever solution that guarantees getting best-trait for your existing gear, just after investing more in various group content. Now all you need to worry about is getting your armor to drop in the weight you like, which while it's a shame that's still pure RNG it's so unimaginably unlikely that you won't get it within a reasonable number of runs as to be not worth addressing.

The only "RNG" component about the new transmutation system is the number of gems you get per geode, and the geode drop chance itself if you deliberately choose to not use one of the guaranteed drop methods. This is literally mathematically incomparable to a pure RNG system like how gear used to be. You are always guaranteed a crystal from a geode, and you have to work really hard to play in a way such that you don't get a guaranteed geode. This is because they did a great job making sure you have a guaranteed drop from multiple styles of play. Guaranteed methods exist for group dungeons, trial content, and PvP. The only possible point of contention is if you think it will still take to long on average given your time budget, whereas before the point of contention was that it not only might take to long to get your ideal gear, you might literally never obtain it no matter how many times you try.

Except you're still arguing against things the OP (nor I) never said and failing to address any of his (or my) actual points.