I like how ZOS is so casual about LGBT

geonsocal · October 2017

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

To cut to the point, after removing 80+ posts, we must remind everyone that threads are to stay on the initial topic. This thread is NOT about the debate of genders and who is wrong or right. This thread is about the relationships that are had throughout Tamriel. If you are not one who likes how ZOS is rather casual about the LGBT NPCs, then there is absolutely no need to post in this specific thread. Doing so is consider Bashing, Baiting, Flaming, and is all around Off Topic. All of which are violations of the Community Rules, and can result in action being taken against ones own account because they felt a need to stir the pot.

Thank you for your understanding!

very very cool - my faith in zos has definitely been enhanced

FrancisCrawford · October 2017

I agree that it's great, and have often thought of starting a thread like this one,

On the other hand, this thread has already covered almost every example I can think of in the game. The only other one that's jumping to my mind is from the Thieves Guild quest line, and I think we shouldn't spoil the details of that since a lot of those quests are about unfolding characters' backstories.

Wait. Isn't the Orcish quest-giver for Undaunted pledges a bit Jakarn-ish in that she evaluates everybody as a possible partner?

Stania · October 2017

eso_nya wrote: »

Theres one guy at the end of CoA 2 who says sth like "i have no friends or family to show for, but i have the undaunted song"

Lol but lacking friends or family doesn't equal to be asexual. I meant npc's clearly stating about being happy without the need of having a partner or getting laid.

FrancisCrawford · October 2017

In a related point, the various societies in the game -- almost all of them in some way feudal -- differ in how they view the sexes. The Bosmer and Orcs have very clear sex roles in their hierarchy (but why do the Bosmer have a king?). The Breton and Redguard monarchies seem to have sex roles in line with traditional real-world human societies ... or maybe not, since it's made clear that a regional monarch under the High King can be male or female alike.

Also -- in any society, our fantasy females can be exactly as physically strong as men, which fits very well with military folks at any level being of either sex as well.

Osteos · October 2017

I agree its quite refreshing.

Also one of the reasons that I love the DC storyline the most is that many of the character that we met at the beginning are present throughout the story. For example a very forlorn Majoll can be found sitting on the roof of an inn in Alik'r having come to realize his love for Jakarn is unrequited.

Hurbster · October 2017

Runschei wrote: »

And the two lads flirting at the upper floor of The Ebony Flask

Hehe, the Ebony Flask is a place for more professional meetings.

I like the way it's dropped into the quest text so casually and like the two stall owners in Coldharbour, one complaining that she is even bringing presents and the other being completely oblivious.

Woodenplank · October 2017

Oh what have I created...

Oh well. Glad ZOS cleaned it up.
If they don't care about Balance complaints, they at least care about keeping the forums clean

(Casual joke, don't ban me for off-topic).

If memory serves Skyrim's Dragonborn expansion also had two nord dudes in love with eachother. The romance was off-screen however, as you only find a letter from one to the other (They were actually killed by bandits

)

Stania · October 2017

Jayman1000 wrote: »

I'd love a quest where you could actually take a position, you know help the poor LGBT couple that are being injustly persecuted in their village to safety. Or lead them to Molag Bal to be sacrificed!!! muahahah I want that

Oh boy, the second option would be like the "kill Paarthurnax" option in Skyrim. You are free to choose it in your game, but prepare to deal with a inquisition if you make public your decision.

FrancisCrawford · October 2017

Osteos wrote: »

I agree its quite refreshing.

Also one of the reasons that I love the DC storyline the most is that many of the character that we met at the beginning are present throughout the story. For example a very forlorn Majoll can be found sitting on the roof of an inn in Alik'r having come to realize his love for Jakarn is unrequited.

They even make it into other story lines. I view Stibbens/Lady Laurent as having been introduced in Glenumbra. Gabriele and Darien are the last companions you have in the Main Quest, other than the obvious ones (Lyris et al.) In a choice I don't actually like, Gabriele is repurposed as a minor villain in Stonefalls (via a projection and a document). Etc.

Basically, the DC characters are richer than any other alliance's even if you leave out that great cast of characters from the initial quest -- Lerisa, Jakarn, Kaleen et al.

Smasherx74 · October 2017

There's ton of gay relationships in Elder Scrolls series. Why are we just now mentioning this?

BrianDavion · October 2017

Erik_Darksinger wrote: »

I respect ZOS for the simple fact that it is not treated as the End All and Be All of an NPC's personality. It's just not that big a deal in Tamriel. There are times when talking to NPCs or Quest persons when I finish up with them and get a few steps away and stop and think: Did she say her wife? When you don't make a big deal about the personal life of an NPC or even a Player Character it makes them a little more believable in my eyes.

As someone that has an In Character committed relationship, I also like how when me and the boyfriend go out to the Tavern it is not seem as a shock that two males are together. Honestly, I get more grief from the fact that I am Breton and he is Dunmer. That whole Racial Purity thing, you know....

I agree, compare that to ME:A where at the drop of a hate a random strranger tells you that yes they are transgender, and please stay while they tell you their life story

BoloBoffin · October 2017

Some love for Majoll up above! One of my favorite NPCs. Did he ever make it past Solitude in Alik'r Desert? That's the last I saw of him, deserted by that scoundrel Jakarn.

Catulo · October 2017

BoloBoffin wrote: »

Some love for Majoll up above! One of my favorite NPCs. Did he ever make it past Solitude in Alik'r Desert? That's the last I saw of him, deserted by that scoundrel Jakarn.

Jakarn might be a scoundrel, but he is the best bisexual character in ESO in my oppinion.

Hurbster · October 2017

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Osteos wrote: »

I agree its quite refreshing.

Also one of the reasons that I love the DC storyline the most is that many of the character that we met at the beginning are present throughout the story. For example a very forlorn Majoll can be found sitting on the roof of an inn in Alik'r having come to realize his love for Jakarn is unrequited.

They even make it into other story lines. I view Stibbens/Lady Laurent as having been introduced in Glenumbra. Gabriele and Darien are the last companions you have in the Main Quest, other than the obvious ones (Lyris et al.) In a choice I don't actually like, Gabriele is repurposed as a minor villain in Stonefalls (via a projection and a document). Etc.

Basically, the DC characters are richer than any other alliance's even if you leave out that great cast of characters from the initial quest -- Lerisa, Jakarn, Kaleen et al.

Are you getting Gabriele mixed up with Alexandra Conele ?

Sixty5 · October 2017

I'm typically against people ramming their personal agenda into games, but that is mostly because it is always done in such a ham-fisted manner.

I definitely respect the apporach that ZOS took where it is just something that is there, and not a focal point of the game.

NPC's are people and not just a list of minority traits, and I like that.

GrumpyDuckling · October 2017

Woodenplank wrote: »

Oh what have I created...

Oh well. Glad ZOS cleaned it up.
If they don't care about Balance complaints, they at least care about keeping the forums clean
(Casual joke, don't ban me for off-topic).

If memory serves Skyrim's Dragonborn expansion also had two nord dudes in love with eachother. The romance was off-screen however, as you only find a letter from one to the other (They were actually killed by bandits )

I think you started a great discussion. It highlights the progression we've made in society to the point where this specific entertainment (video game) exemplifies that progression.

Strider__Roshin · October 2017

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'm typically against people ramming their personal agenda into games, but that is mostly because it is always done in such a ham-fisted manner.

I definitely respect the apporach that ZOS took where it is just something that is there, and not a focal point of the game.

NPC's are people and not just a list of minority traits, and I like that.

The ending of the Vivic story line definitely felt forced in my opinion. It was quite an eye roller.

GrumpyDuckling · October 2017

ParaNostram wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

It would be nice to see the removal of male/female binary choices during character creation. That would be a cool next step.

I can agree with this statement. Of course not everyone would want a character that breaks the binary but it only makes sense to have the option given how both intersex and nonbinary characters are already in existence in TES lore (see Lord Vivec.) Of course there's some lore out there too about Argonians being able to change their sex via licking the Hist.

But think of the RP possibilities too if you're into that. In a Mephalan cult, one's rising above gender could be seen as veneration of the deity most common to shift their gender (who is also referred to sometimes as Androgyne).

Here's a link that has some cool examples of LGBT+ representation in TES games. My personal favorite character so far in Little Leaf cuz she is so adorable and her affection for Cassipia is so wholesome and gives me warm fuzzy feelings

http://ladynerevar.tumblr.com/post/92855271360/lgbtq-in-the-elder-scrolls

TLDR - more options is always great.

An excellent post with connection to lore and RP, and I too love having options/versatility in games. Being able to same sex marry in Skyrim was great because you didn't have to worry about being unable to marry NPCs based on the character you created at the start of the game.

Artis · October 2017

I am neutral about it. There are some great or funny/unexpected stories because of that attitude, but a few things are annoying about it, though.

1) It does feel like a political statement or something. And I'm pretty sure we all know what would've happened if someone created a thread saying that he doesn't like how zos is so casual about lgbt.

The indirect evidence is provided here

ParaNostram wrote: »

Here's a link that has some cool examples of LGBT+ representation in TES games.

http://ladynerevar.tumblr.com/post/92855271360/lgbtq-in-the-elder-scrolls

As we can see, the number of examples suddenly skyrockets in ESO. Coincidence? In my opinion it kinda looks like pushing some narrative as opposed to just being casual about it.

2) Not cool using games and such for pushing all that role-model and representation idiocy. We got enough of that in real life. Stop, just create a fantasy world that makes sense.

3) Even though gods aren't explicitly against it, how does it make sense immersion/lore-wise? Nirn is not Earth, here there's no mystery how people appeared - they were created. Now, why would anyone create specifically 2 sexes? And if 2 sexes were created what's with all that homosexuality? Is it some deviation from creators' plan? Tricks of the Mad God? Or does all this love simply not include sexual intercourse?

Another evidence:

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

To cut to the point, after removing 80+ posts, we must remind everyone that threads are to stay on the initial topic. This thread is NOT about the debate of genders and who is wrong or right. This thread is about the relationships that are had throughout Tamriel. If you are not one who likes how ZOS is rather casual about the LGBT NPCs, then there is absolutely no need to post in this specific thread. Doing so is consider Bashing, Baiting, Flaming, and is all around Off Topic. All of which are violations of the Community Rules, and can result in action being taken against ones own account because they felt a need to stir the pot.

Thank you for your understanding!

Oh, so I can express my point of view cause freedom of speech and all! Awesome, could be an interesting discussion. Freedom of speech and all.
Oh nevermind. It's supposed to be an echo chamber. Simply posting in this thread is considered to be bashing, baiting, flaming? Off topic? How? It's a thread about relationships had in Tamriel. How is discussing relationship had in Tamriel off topic? Can't you not be off topic if you dislike how zos is rather casual etc? Seriously, it's a general question - is it a rule for all threads? Can't post in an Auction House if I don't want it or post in nerf sorc if I don't want sorcs nerfed?

But I guess I missed those 80 posts. I'm assuming they were really nasty? Like using bad words and such?

p.s. Not to stand out too much from the echo-chamber. I liked the story in Greenshade, the one where in the end the ghost flowers grow. Or was it Greenshade? Anyone remembers what I'm talking about? It was a beautiful story if I recall correctly.

p.p.s. made sure to go through rules again - didn't bash anyone, no conspiracy, didn't discuss disciplinary actions, the comment is on-topic and constructive => no flaming as defined in rules either. So please, don't consider my comment as either of those things just for posting here. Do feel free to remove or whatever, of course, but keep in mind I tried to be as polite and stuff as possible, so don't take actions against my innocent account

Jade1986 · October 2017

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

To cut to the point, after removing 80+ posts, we must remind everyone that threads are to stay on the initial topic. This thread is NOT about the debate of genders and who is wrong or right. This thread is about the relationships that are had throughout Tamriel. If you are not one who likes how ZOS is rather casual about the LGBT NPCs, then there is absolutely no need to post in this specific thread. Doing so is consider Bashing, Baiting, Flaming, and is all around Off Topic. All of which are violations of the Community Rules, and can result in action being taken against ones own account because they felt a need to stir the pot.

Thank you for your understanding!

you!

Bumblebeelzebub · October 2017

Me too!

I've always liked the way ES has woven non-het characters into the story without their orientation being pushed front and center. Like, sure they're gay/bi/whatever but that's not the point. They have a quest for you. There are other more interesting aspects of their personality, and they just happen to be ***.

To me it says "this is normal". Which is a breath of fresh air in a gaming culture which is often openly hostile toward folks like me (trans/bi).

Edit: Why is the Q in LGBTQ+ censored? FFS.

Megabear · October 2017

As a straight dude I approve.

VaranisArano · October 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

On the other hand, this thread has already covered almost every example I can think of in the game. The only other one that's jumping to my mind is from the Thieves Guild quest line, and I think we shouldn't spoil the details of that since a lot of those quests are about unfolding characters' backstories.

I know exactly the couple you are talking about and they are adorable!

If you like Velsa and Narahni and aren't opposed to fanfiction, this is a beautiful story about them and the Thieves Guild being thieves (non-graphic): https://archiveofourown.org/works/8887117

Artis wrote: »

p.s. Not to stand out too much from the echo-chamber. I liked the story in Greenshade, the one where in the end the ghost flowers grow. Or was it Greenshade? Anyone remembers what I'm talking about? It was a beautiful story if I recall correctly.

That's this quest in Greenshade: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Flower_of_Youth Judging by the other posts, it stuck in a lot of people's hearts, mine included.

FrancisCrawford · October 2017

Hurbster wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Osteos wrote: »

I agree its quite refreshing.

Also one of the reasons that I love the DC storyline the most is that many of the character that we met at the beginning are present throughout the story. For example a very forlorn Majoll can be found sitting on the roof of an inn in Alik'r having come to realize his love for Jakarn is unrequited.

They even make it into other story lines. I view Stibbens/Lady Laurent as having been introduced in Glenumbra. Gabriele and Darien are the last companions you have in the Main Quest, other than the obvious ones (Lyris et al.) In a choice I don't actually like, Gabriele is repurposed as a minor villain in Stonefalls (via a projection and a document). Etc.

Basically, the DC characters are richer than any other alliance's even if you leave out that great cast of characters from the initial quest -- Lerisa, Jakarn, Kaleen et al.

Are you getting Gabriele mixed up with Alexandra Conele ?

Gabriele's name is definitely on a document in one of the Stonefalls delves. There's also a projection of a mage in an Ebonheart City quest I did this week, and I THINK it was of Gabriele.

FrancisCrawford · October 2017

Also in the Thieves Guild quest line -- at some point you need to pick a date for a party, and you can pick among characters of both sexes.

VaranisArano · October 2017

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Gabriele's name is definitely on a document in one of the Stonefalls delves. There's also a projection of a mage in an Ebonheart City quest I did this week, and I THINK it was of Gabriele.

You are correct. Gabrielle Benele is involved with the quest http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Truth_about_Spiders in the Hightide Hollow delve in Stonefalls. Her note: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Non-Standard_Techniques

Osteos · October 2017

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hurbster wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Osteos wrote: »

I agree its quite refreshing.

Also one of the reasons that I love the DC storyline the most is that many of the character that we met at the beginning are present throughout the story. For example a very forlorn Majoll can be found sitting on the roof of an inn in Alik'r having come to realize his love for Jakarn is unrequited.

They even make it into other story lines. I view Stibbens/Lady Laurent as having been introduced in Glenumbra. Gabriele and Darien are the last companions you have in the Main Quest, other than the obvious ones (Lyris et al.) In a choice I don't actually like, Gabriele is repurposed as a minor villain in Stonefalls (via a projection and a document). Etc.

Basically, the DC characters are richer than any other alliance's even if you leave out that great cast of characters from the initial quest -- Lerisa, Jakarn, Kaleen et al.

Are you getting Gabriele mixed up with Alexandra Conele ?

Gabriele's name is definitely on a document in one of the Stonefalls delves. There's also a projection of a mage in an Ebonheart City quest I did this week, and I THINK it was of Gabriele.

Interesting! its been ages since I did any questing in stonefalls. I will check it out. Semi related, Gabriele's sister is the quest giver for the spell scar quest in Craglorn.

Anyway I don't want to derail the thread too much

Wrubius_Coronaria · October 2017

Woodenplank wrote: »

Oh what have I created...

Oh well. Glad ZOS cleaned it up.
If they don't care about Balance complaints, they at least care about keeping the forums clean
(Casual joke, don't ban me for off-topic).

If memory serves Skyrim's Dragonborn expansion also had two nord dudes in love with eachother. The romance was off-screen however, as you only find a letter from one to the other (They were actually killed by bandits )

Don't put the blame on you, you made an awesome thread about LGBT in video games, ESO in that case.

It's important to speak about this and how they're evolving for including LGBT in their games.

VaranisArano · October 2017

@Bumblebeelzebub and @mirta000b16_ESO in case you somehow missed it, this thread has already gotten moderated and off-topic discussions like yours got removed wholesale.

On topic: I really like the depth that including same-sex couples gives to the Aldmeri Dominion and particularly the Altmer culture. There's a lot of lore and fan-lore that tends to treat the Altmer as genetics-obsessed people who really care about breeding the next generations, so its good to see some counter to that in this game. I think that comes from the Pocket Edition, the first one, though I'm not entirely sure.

Bumblebeelzebub · October 2017

VaranisArano wrote: »

@Bumblebeelzebub and @mirta000b16_ESO in case you somehow missed it, this thread has already gotten moderated and off-topic discussions like yours got removed wholesale.

On topic: I really like the depth that including same-sex couples gives to the Aldmeri Dominion and particularly the Altmer culture. There's a lot of lore and fan-lore that tends to treat the Altmer as genetics-obsessed people who really care about breeding the next generations, so its good to see some counter to that in this game. I think that comes from the Pocket Edition, the first one, though I'm not entirely sure.

Anywho, on topic: Can I ask why you really like the depth that including same-sex couples gives to the Aldmeri Dominion and particularly the Altmer culture despite the fact the Aldmeri Domion seems bent on the ethnic cleansing of Tamriel?