A Note to the Developers About Game Development

Ch4mpTW · October 2017

When I play a game, 1 of the very first things that I tend to check for is the “time sink” factor. While there are tons of other factors to be considered, I particularly check to see how well the game will “hook” me. And I’m sure that’s what other people play games for. They want to be hooked. They want to play a game, that in a sense plays them. And ultimately leads to a digital playground.

For example... Disgaea 5 is a game that’s a tactics-style RPG, that has MMO-like qualities in the form of a single player game. But rather than kite the players attention around over months, and in a sense drip-feed content... It just hands the entire package to the player and lets them go wild with how they wish to go about playing it. Sure that may have been the initial premise of ESO (the whole play as you want thing), but things have strongly steered away from that direction. This is of course assuming that you want a sense of progress in ESO. This is of course completely disregarding the folks who pay to complete content.

Let’s go for another example, and a game apart of the franchise. Skyrim. Do you know why Skyrim was so successful...? What its secret was for success? Why even in the year 2017, it’s being released on yet another new platform (Nintendo Switch)? And it still is getting such much love? Even without the mods? It’s because the game has depth. It’s a game that again just takes the nose bag of drugs, and just hands it to the players to go wild with. Sure there are optimal builds to stomp content with, but it is all boiled down to how you wish to do it. And can be made into something great. Want to just insta-gib enemies with a rogue-like build and snipe things to death? Go for it. Want to summon Dremora Lords and or Atronachs to mangle your foes? Knock yourself. Or maybe you just wanna grab a big-ass hammer, and just club things to death. Go for it, sport. Shoot for the moon. There’s so many ways to do things and then some. Believe it or not, people are STILL coming up with new ways to get things done. Yes. Approaching the end of 2017, and people are still creating new successful builds for Skyrim. That’s amazing. And again, that’s not even including the modding. Lol. The modding scene of Skyrim has completely transformed a diamond of a game into something beyond diamond form. Stardust or something. Mods have turned Skyrim into a universe of just... Well... Epicness. But that’s a discussion for another time.

So do you get the picture, devs...? Here. I’ll make it simple, if you weren’t following me. The key to hooking players and having the snowball effect of success in a lot of amazing games (RPG-based) is of mastering the craft of the time sink. But doing so in a way that allows players to truly be creative, and explore their curiosities in a truly numerous amount of ways. WoW, Skyrim, Grand Theft Auto (Online included), Disgaea 5, Fallout NV, Diablo 2 and 3, Pokémon (pick any version), Bloodbourne/Dark Souls, etc. They all have devs who mastered the art of the time sink, and means for players to excel without pigeon-holding themselves to a specific set of builds or play styles. ESO does not do this, and falsely claims that it does. When in fact only a set amount of builds truly allows a sense of progression. Be it PvP or PvE. But especially from a PvE perspective.

Remember this... A meta is fine, but there must be a means of variety (solid and strong variety) for a game with competitive aspects to be truly healthy. This captivating the player’s attention for years on end. Know this. Master this.

Alpheu5 · October 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Here. I’ll make it simple, if you weren’t following me.

Condescension is an ineffective way to get a higher party to take your input seriously.

Ch4mpTW · October 2017

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Here. I’ll make it simple, if you weren’t following me.

Condescension is an ineffective way to get a higher party to take your input seriously.

I apologize if they took it that way. I put that there, because it may appear that I’m bouncing around a tad bit too much. Or perhaps my base message may have appeared too cloudy from the examples I listed. Though I tried my absolute hardest to make things as simple and clear as possible. Topics like these should never be too complicated, you know?

Jim_Pipp · October 2017

That was well-written and a fair point.

When I play fallout 4 in the evening I dream about it at night. When I play skyrim I go to work thinking about what I will do next. A good game is fun to think about even when you aren't playing it.

With eso I have a checklist of stuff I think about doing (do I need to craft some more food for provisioning writs? Does anyone need a new trait researched?). There are very few youtubers putting out interesting content, and most just discuss the latest meta. The only interesting theory crafting is going through a website listing all the armor sets.

It's not a bad game when you are playing (my opinion), but it is so much less interesting than was promised. Fortunately these forums are always good for a laugh.

Elsonso · October 2017

After reading all that, I realize that ESO is what he wants. Me too, going to go log in, now...

VaranisArano · October 2017

ESO traded the sense of progression you want for a sandbox that better enables players to play how they want.

Let's take a trip back in time, to a time where there was a true sense of progression in this game, to a time before the game update called One Tamriel...

Before One Tamriel, you chose your alliance and washed up on the shores of your starter island at level 3ish, depending on how much time you spent mucking around in the Wailing prison before rescuing the Prophet from durance vile. From then on, you battled your way through your alliances, taking care to stick to the areas that were within your level. Any content that was 5 or more levels below your level was greyed-out or gave very little exp. Any content 5 or more levels above you was blocked by a progressive automatic miss chance. So you stuck to the quests in order because you had no choice. Then, you beat your faction quest and beat Moalg Bal? Congratulations, you now have access to a whole second alliance, where you'll repeat the same thing, only now the zones are restricted by Veteran Ranks instead of levels. No skipping of content for you, and if you took a break and leveled up in the new DLC zones, I'm sorry to say but you've probably out-leveled something in the base game zones you were working on that you now have to go complete in order to progress.

But boy, did we have progression! By the time you hit level 50 and reached Veteran Ranks, you could go back to your starter zones and one-shot anything with a light attack. I mean, there wasn't any point to playing in those zones again except for crafting nodes, but soloing dolmens vastly underleveled to you was fun. Except for the fact that you couldn't really group with friends of lower or higher level easily, or with friends on different factions at all, but the sense of progression was amazing!

Before One Tamriel we had progression from level 1 scrub fresh from Mannimarco's knife to Vet 16 gods. We also had a railroad. We were stuck on the same questlines, in the same order, unable to break the mold or access harder content or revisit old zones in any meaningful way. Entire segments of content were locked by level and faction and completing content with friends meant that you needed to be in the same faction and close to the same level.

After One Tamriel, we lost a lot of that sense of progression. Progression became a matter of gaining skills and gear, not growing stronger. However, we also lost the railroad. We can now quest wherever and whenever we want. We can group with whoever we want at whatever level. We traded progression for freedom. We traded the Vet Rank grind for the CP grind, where progression is so gradual its not that noticeable in the moment but doesn't have to be repeated for every character. We traded the linear and locked faction storylines for the ability to tell our own stories by questing when and where we want to.

I sort of miss the undeniable sense of progression I got from taking my Vet Rank 7 DK into my old zones and annihilating enemies with a single hit, but that also got boring pretty quick. I'm much happier with the freedom to level, quest, and group how I want to across the whole of Tamriel that we got in the One Tamriel Update.

TLDR: ESO used to have the sense of progression you want. It kinda sucked. Freedom with less sense of progression is better for replay-ability than a railroad with tons of progression.

Ch4mpTW · October 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

After reading all that, I realize that ESO is what he wants. Me too, going to go log in, now...

Lol... If only that were true. . .

Call yourself trying to complete content like VMA or VMoL with a build that’s truly unique. See what happens. Sure you have oddities and outliers that appear once in a blue moon (e.g. the guy who beat VMA with the broom 2h, or when I did the majority of VMA on my Templar with no weapon and just through jabs alone, or the guy who does it with a double bow build). But that’s about it. And even then, that’s in a solo instance. If you have 12 players in a trial all using a truly unique build, you will have failure. Back after back. Constant failure in succession. Not even all 12. Just take 4 or 5 folks with non-meta builds calling themselves doing a simple trial like say VAA or VHRC. See what happens.

Slick_007 · October 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Here. I’ll make it simple, if you weren’t following me.

Condescension is an ineffective way to get a higher party to take your input seriously.

I apologize if they took it that way. I put that there, because it may appear that I’m bouncing around a tad bit too much. Or perhaps my base message may have appeared too cloudy from the examples I listed. Though I tried my absolute hardest to make things as simple and clear as possible. Topics like these should never be too complicated, you know?

i dont believe it could be taken any other way after your thread title alone. you deliberately did it that way and just from the thread title it was oh boy, here we go, someone who thinks they know better than the devs, who is not a game developer. it didnt get any better.

See varanisarano's comment for a far superior written way of putting it, without the condescension.

kip_silverwolf · October 2017

How well a game 'hooks' you is really up to the individual & one's own personal taste.
I've spent thousands upon thousands of hours in nearly all the SP Elder Scrolls games, most of which were spent playing around with mods.

However if I play any of them now it's never for long as I start thinking how much I'd rather be in ESO.
ESO has hooked me well & truly. 8500+hrs since Beta, and I still look forward to getting in-game everyday, and enjoy every minute I'm there, regardless of what I'm doing.

For me, Zenimax has mastered the 'time sink' factor.

Perhaps ES6 will change that, perhaps not. I'll see how I feel when that time comes.

Alpheu5 · October 2017

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

When I play fallout 4 in the evening I dream about it at night. When I play skyrim I go to work thinking about what I will do next. A good game is fun to think about even when you aren't playing it.

With eso I have a checklist of stuff I think about doing (do I need to craft some more food for provisioning writs? Does anyone need a new trait researched?).

This is basically why I stopped playing Minecraft, both single-player and multi-player. It turned into a checklist of builds that needed to get completed to make building future builds easier, which would in turn make future builds from those easier, and so on.

That's how ESO feels sometimes. Get this gear so you can progress to getting this other gear, which you'll use to get the new gear coming next patch, which will make it easier to complete this other content for this other gear for one of your other characters, ad infinitum.

Ch4mpTW · October 2017

Slick_007 wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Here. I’ll make it simple, if you weren’t following me.

Condescension is an ineffective way to get a higher party to take your input seriously.

I apologize if they took it that way. I put that there, because it may appear that I’m bouncing around a tad bit too much. Or perhaps my base message may have appeared too cloudy from the examples I listed. Though I tried my absolute hardest to make things as simple and clear as possible. Topics like these should never be too complicated, you know?

i dont believe it could be taken any other way after your thread title alone. you deliberately did it that way and just from the thread title it was oh boy, here we go, someone who thinks they know better than the devs, who is not a game developer. it didnt get any better.

See varanisarano's comment for a far superior written way of putting it, without the condescension.

Think I know better than the devs...?

Well... For starters... I wouldn’t dare have a MMO, and call myself balancing it around both PvE and PvP simultaneously. That alone puts me at an advantage over them dramatically. Especially considering how deep that concept in and of itself is. Lmao. Let alone call myself continuing to do so, even though it’s proving patch after patch that my concept is causing more and more of the player base to quit. This is of course assuming that the objective of a game is to hook players, and keep them playing for as long as possible. Plus giving them an incentive to bring their friends to buy and subscribe to any bonus services the game has.

I’d also not have such atrocious RNG running as rampant as long as it has. This is of course knowing that RNG is a common gripe that players from all genres of gaming tend to have issues with. Knowing that I want a successful game that players enjoy, why the hell would I stack layers upon layers of RNG for the player base to endure for years on end?

Damn. So that’s what? 2-0? Shall I continue? @Slick_007

Here. Let’s go for a third. I wouldn’t allow botters and gold sellers to run as rampant as they have been, and call myself removing game masters for the most part. With GM’s popping up every blue moon. N’ah. That’s 1 of the ways how you lose control of your game’s economy, and ultimately leads to a game’s failure. Let alone potential legal issues that could arise from said things.

That’s 3-0. I can go on and on, but I think you get the picture.

mirta000b16_ESO · October 2017

remember that when you exhaust all the quests in Skyrim, you put the game down and say "what a great game!" When you exhaust all the quests in an MMO, you complain that there's no time sink to keep you here. Why not pick up an alt and do it all over again? That way you'll have the elder scrolls single player RPG experience

Alpheu5 · October 2017

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

remember that when you exhaust all the quests in Skyrim, you put the game down and say "what a great game!" When you exhaust all the quests in an MMO, you complain that there's no time sink to keep you here. Why not pick up an alt and do it all over again? That way you'll have the elder scrolls single player RPG experience

When you exhaust all the quests in Skyrim, you install mods that let you destroy hundreds of unsuspecting NPCs so you become a god amongst microbes.

Ch4mpTW · October 2017

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

remember that when you exhaust all the quests in Skyrim, you put the game down and say "what a great game!" When you exhaust all the quests in an MMO, you complain that there's no time sink to keep you here. Why not pick up an alt and do it all over again? That way you'll have the elder scrolls single player RPG experience

Never met a single person who’s done all of Skyrim’s quests, but you get an awesome regardless for such a great reply.

And see, you brought up something that I was hoping someone would mention. The “what’s next factor”? In JRPG’s, this is often done through the means of “New Game +”, but a solid MMO or game of any kind has a means to combat this if it isn’t a JRPG. And this can be done a myriad of ways. But an incredibly successful means that Blizzard came up with were “rifts” in Diablo 3. The rifts system introduced a means of keeping playability and thrill for players who want to go even further. And then they implemented “Greater Rifts”, and eventually “Seasons”. And it was a wildly successful feature, that in a sense rekindled Diablo 3’s flame (even though Reaper of Souls did this alone). It was just a brilliant means of piling on the success, and stacking and letting it snowball.

ESO somewhat has this in the form of dungeons and trials, but there comes a time where you hit “The Wall” if you excel enough. I’ve personally hit this said wall 3 or 4 times now. And it’s not fun. At all. Where as there technically is no “Wall” in a game like Diablo 3. There is no “wall” in Pokémon games (newer 1’s for the most part). There is no “wall” in GTA:O, Disgaea 5, Fallout NV, Skyrim, World of Warcraft, Diablo 3, etc. You can never truly plateau, because the ceiling doesn’t exist to begin with.

Dantaria · October 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Skyrim. Do you know why Skyrim was so successful...? <...> It’s because the game has depth.

PWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Depth. Skyrim and depth. Depth.

One-dimensional characters. One-dimensional story-line. Classic single TES games cheese in terms of gameplay. Really?!

Oh, that choices... Sure, summon Dremoras, grab Hammer... You just can't lose - adjust difficulty and here we go. Go naked monk, if you wish to.

Sandbox. What Skyrim is without mods is pure and simple sandbox with dragons and graphics. Does anyone even need to elaborate why the comparison with MMORPG (MMORPG which has PvP, by the way) is flat out incorrect?

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

They all have devs who mastered the art of the time sink, and means for players to excel without pigeon-holding themselves to a specific set of builds or play styles. ESO does not do this, and falsely claims that it does.

Remember this... A meta is fine, but there must be a means of variety (solid and strong variety) for a game with competitive aspects to be truly healthy.

ESO does do that.

Do I truly need to give lecture about "maximum of the function" yet again? Meta means exactly maximum of the function, the only way to have absolutely best stats. Sooooo... Which variety? Which variety do you expect in the competitive system? There is, by definition, supposed to be from none to very limited variety.

The only people who are pigeon-holded are min-maxers.

My cookie-cutter pet-sorc has 36k solo DPS. I also have non pet-sorc build, which does 32k solo DPS.

Personally I am stuck with first one. Simply because my personal goal is to be able to perform in vMoL adequately even if I'm drunk ****faced.

How, pray tell, people who simply want to clear dungeons are pigeon-holded? Outside of our circle of "best performance, I want this **** cleared fast"... who the hell is pigeon-holded?

Hybrids, sorc healers, NB tanks - be my guest for as long as we don't talk vTrials.

If someone truly does feel himself constricted in ESO... well. This someone chose it.

And I'm not even bringing up the fact that you have 12 char slots, so you can easily afford having and cookie-cutter meta chars and chars for **** and giggles.

Chosing to go to absolute end-game where every 0.00001% matters and then complaining about variety... Oh, that's rich, that's really golden

mirta000b16_ESO · October 2017

Alpheu5 wrote: »

When you exhaust all the quests in Skyrim, you install mods that let you destroy hundreds of unsuspecting NPCs so you become a god amongst microbes.

If that's your playstyle, so be it. You could join the Dark Brotherhood and just sneak around cities here stabing everyone to death too if you felt like it. For me endless killing would feel pointless.
From a single player RPG questing perspective, I think ESO has more hours of quests than other Elder Scrolls games (can't comment about Daggerfall and Arena honestly as I didn't play that much of them). It also has more choice in what happens, as most Skyrim and Oblivion quests for example had 0 choice whatsoever, while here most quests branch out into two directions, even if they don't affect much more than the ending of the quest.

From an MMO perspective, the closest game to ESO would be GW2. And as a person that played GW2 for 3 years, ESO manages to offer more than it. GW2's schedule includes 1 raid every 2 years, about 1 fractal a year, no dungeons, living story that if you miss you have to buy and some zones. (4-5 dropped with an expansion, extra few added with living story. Living story zones tend to be small and just serve the purpose of that particular chapter).
Do not compare ESO to WoW, or FFXIV, or any other game in the P2P market, as obviously it's going to lose against an MMO with a steady stream of income.

Ch4mpTW · October 2017

Alpheu5 wrote: »

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

remember that when you exhaust all the quests in Skyrim, you put the game down and say "what a great game!" When you exhaust all the quests in an MMO, you complain that there's no time sink to keep you here. Why not pick up an alt and do it all over again? That way you'll have the elder scrolls single player RPG experience

When you exhaust all the quests in Skyrim, you install mods that let you destroy hundreds of unsuspecting NPCs so you become a god amongst microbes.

Not only that. But have you seen the quest and storyline mods of Skyrim? The Bruma mod for example completely and dramatically reworks Skyrim into what genuinely feels like a brand new game. It’s insane what Bruma did to Skyrim. Truly insane. And mind you, that’s just 1 mod. A single mod. And that mod alone adds tons of more hours to your playtime of Skyrim.

So to put things into perspective, you have: Skyrim itself adding hundreds of hours, Dawnguard adding tons of hours, Hearthfire adding adoption and home development and customization (tons of hours personalizing your homes), and Dragonborn adding tons of hours as well. That’s a LOT of hours. And that’s not even considering the quests and storylines added through mods. And new regions to explored. Throw in something like the Bruma mod, and oh man. You have a true universe to waste away in. Your own pocket void of time to just get lost in. Screw getting lost in your own world. Mods make you get lost in your own galaxy. Lmao.

mirta000b16_ESO · October 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Never met a single person who’s done all of Skyrim’s quests, but you get an awesome regardless for such a great reply.

I got maybe 500 hours out of Skyrim. About 2000 hours out of Oblivion though as back then I had very few games. Collected all the Nirnroot over 10 times too I think.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

And see, you brought up something that I was hoping someone would mention. The “what’s next factor”? In JRPG’s, this is often done through the means of “New Game +”, but a solid MMO or game of any kind has a means to combat this if it isn’t a JRPG. And this can be done a myriad of ways. But an incredibly successful means that Blizzard came up with were “rifts” in Diablo 3. The rifts system introduced a means of keeping playability and thrill for players who want to go even further. And then they implemented “Greater Rifts”, and eventually “Seasons”. And it was a wildly successful feature, that in a sense rekindled Diablo 3’s flame (even though Reaper of Souls did this alone). It was just a brilliant means of piling on the success, and stacking and letting it snowball.

Diablo 3 is not an MMO though :P

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

ESO somewhat has this in the form of dungeons and trials, but there comes a time where you hit “The Wall” if you excel enough. I’ve personally hit this said wall 3 or 4 times now. And it’s not fun. At all. Where as there technically is no “Wall” in a game like Diablo 3. There is no “wall” in Pokémon games (newer 1’s for the most part). There is no “wall” in GTA:O, Disgaea 5, Fallout NV, Skyrim, World of Warcraft, Diablo 3, etc. You can never truly plateau, because the ceiling doesn’t exist to begin with.

A wall of too easy, or too hard? Because you can most definitely find single player games too easy.
WoW's ceiling most definitely exists. When you hit end game it's the usual MMO stuff, such as raids and PvP. Does Blizzard do it better? Sure. Buts ESO subscription only and has 10-15 million people subbing to it every month?

mirta000b16_ESO · October 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Not only that. But have you seen the quest and storyline mods of Skyrim? The Bruma mod for example completely and dramatically reworks Skyrim into what genuinely feels like a brand new game. It’s insane what Bruma did to Skyrim. Truly insane. And mind you, that’s just 1 mod. A single mod. And that mod alone adds tons of more hours to your playtime of Skyrim.

So to put things into perspective, you have: Skyrim itself adding hundreds of hours, Dawnguard adding tons of hours, Hearthfire adding adoption and home development and customization (tons of hours personalizing your homes), and Dragonborn adding tons of hours as well. That’s a LOT of hours. And that’s not even considering the quests and storylines added through mods. And new regions to explored. Throw in something like the Bruma mod, and oh man. You have a true universe to waste away in. Your own pocket void of time to just get lost in. Screw getting lost in your own world. Mods make you get lost in your own galaxy. Lmao.

Mods is content not coming from developer money though. I'm sure that if you convinced a few dozen kind souls to work for ZoS for free, we would also have more content a year

Rohamad_Ali · October 2017

You gave feedback that did not resonate with those that are happy ? Prepare for full Fan Dogpiling heathen !

SirAndy · October 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Approaching the end of 2017, and people are still creating new successful builds for Skyrim.

Shameless plug, if you want a completely different Skyrim experience, check out my Level 1 mod.

It allows you to play the whole game at level 1 and never level up. It's loads more funner than it sounds.

Elsonso · October 2017

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

When I play fallout 4 in the evening I dream about it at night. When I play skyrim I go to work thinking about what I will do next. A good game is fun to think about even when you aren't playing it.

With eso I have a checklist of stuff I think about doing (do I need to craft some more food for provisioning writs? Does anyone need a new trait researched?).

This is basically why I stopped playing Minecraft, both single-player and multi-player. It turned into a checklist of builds that needed to get completed to make building future builds easier, which would in turn make future builds from those easier, and so on.

That's how ESO feels sometimes. Get this gear so you can progress to getting this other gear, which you'll use to get the new gear coming next patch, which will make it easier to complete this other content for this other gear for one of your other characters, ad infinitum.

Some people get locked into a single way of doing things. They play Minecraft and they set up the same support structure, built the same way, because they decide it is optimal, or they just like the way it looks. I see people play Civilization, and they research the same technologies in the same order, like they have to do it that way. I am sure there are people who do this even if the immediate game environment does not support it as well as some other tactic.

It is necessary to mix things up, and be able to mix things up. Some people just can't do that, which is too bad.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

I wouldn’t allow botters and gold sellers to run as rampant as they have been, and call myself removing game masters for the most part. With GM’s popping up every blue moon. N’ah. That’s 1 of the ways how you lose control of your game’s economy, and ultimately leads to a game’s failure. Let alone potential legal issues that could arise from said things.

No argument there. ZOS is not my favorite studio. They have a great stable of game talent, but management leaves a lot to be desired. Someone hired talented developers that did, and can still do, excellent work. I figure that this person left the company before launch, or is not involved in the running of the studio. The game is a monument to that person, despite the best efforts of ZOS and Bethesda to kill the game. ESO is a sand castle standing against the tides of ZOS.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Never met a single person who’s done all of Skyrim’s quests

I am pretty sure that I have done it all in Skyrim.

Community provided extensions to the game do not satisfy me. They often don't fit with the lore or the style of the game and can be buggy on a level that makes BGS look like perfect developers, if the work is even complete.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

There is no “wall” in GTA:O, Disgaea 5, Fallout NV, Skyrim, World of Warcraft, Diablo 3, etc. You can never truly plateau, because the ceiling doesn’t exist to begin with.

There is a definitely wall in Skyrim. Skyrim was pretty, but that wall was easy to hit. There is a wall in Fallout 3, NV, and 4. The wall is there. Easier to find in some than other, but it is there.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

You gave feedback that did not resonate with those that are happy ? Prepare for full Fan Dogpiling heathen

My thought is that if someone does not want to discuss, they will make some YouTube video. If someone wants to hear the agrees and disagrees, this is a much better place to do it.

Slick_007 · October 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Think I know better than the devs...?

you think you do. nobody else does.

Well... For starters... I wouldn’t dare have a MMO, and call myself balancing it around both PvE and PvP simultaneously. That alone puts me at an advantage over them dramatically. Especially considering how deep that concept in and of itself is. Lmao. Let alone call myself continuing to do so, even though it’s proving patch after patch that my concept is causing more and more of the player base to quit. This is of course assuming that the objective of a game is to hook players, and keep them playing for as long as possible. Plus giving them an incentive to bring their friends to buy and subscribe to any bonus services the game has.

I’d also not have such atrocious RNG running as rampant as long as it has. This is of course knowing that RNG is a common gripe that players from all genres of gaming tend to have issues with. Knowing that I want a successful game that players enjoy, why the hell would I stack layers upon layers of RNG for the player base to endure for years on end?

Damn. So that’s what? 2-0? Shall I continue? @Slick_007

Here. Let’s go for a third. I wouldn’t allow botters and gold sellers to run as rampant as they have been, and call myself removing game masters for the most part. With GM’s popping up every blue moon. N’ah. That’s 1 of the ways how you lose control of your game’s economy, and ultimately leads to a game’s failure. Let alone potential legal issues that could arise from said things.

That’s 3-0. I can go on and on, but I think you get the picture.

so i pointed out how condescending your post was and you start an imaginary scoreboard? well when you release your own mmo, we'll check the real scoreboard then shall we. until then, you should stop digging before you hit the bottom.

AzraelKrieg · October 2017

People actually still give two craps what this N'wah has to say? He threatens to leave the game every few months, comes back and complains more and then repeats the process. As far as your "Note to Developers about Game Development" is concerned, if you think you can do it better, go create your own damn game. Chances are while you can talk about YOU would like in a game, you have no expertise in actually making one. So pull your head out of your backside. If you don't like this game as you've repeatedly implied with every single bloody topic you have made on this forum, go the hell away.

Ch4mpTW · October 2017

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

People actually still give two craps what this N'wah has to say? He threatens to leave the game every few months, comes back and complains more and then repeats the process. As far as your "Note to Developers about Game Development" is concerned, if you think you can do it better, go create your own damn game. Chances are while you can talk about YOU would like in a game, you have no expertise in actually making one. So pull your head out of your backside. If you don't like this game as you've repeatedly implied with every single bloody topic you have made on this forum, go the hell away.

Lol’d. Lol’d hard to be honest. Thanks. I needed a good chuckle with my morning coffee. It’s always good to start the weekend off with a hardy laugh. The kind that makes your cheeks and belly hurt. I appreciate that. Thank you once more.

DRXHarbinger · October 2017

Bruh who needs a time sink when we have crown crates.. No better way to spend your time and money than flipping all those lovely cards and getting OP potions whilst listening to that stupid cat bait you into buying more.

can't tell if serious people? l2sarcasm.

OT what I think we need is.

No battlespirit server for PVP, full heals, shields and damage.

Content that requires something other than stack and burn (these aren't mechanics at all that we have right now) something that requires actual brainpower and stuff that has some variation. Some of the trials were great until everyone found out to complete them on YT. If there was some dynamic element to it and things changed slightly it'd give more challenge and entertainment.

Dare I say this... Why not.

Removal of PTS. Something inside my tight guilds and groups dies when they release new content on this platform. the coming weeks and months turn from playing into prepping for the next meta and doom and gloom. I get the PTS exists to save ZOS on overheads with hiring a real team to do it and we instead do it for them but it is an evil entity. Even if you don't use it yourself someone always comes along and reks your day but spilling all the juice. What happened to downloading new stuff and having a surprise?

Ch4mpTW · October 2017

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Bruh who needs a time sink when we have crown crates.. No better way to spend your time and money than flipping all those lovely cards and getting OP potions whilst listening to that stupid cat bait you into buying more.

can't tell if serious people? l2sarcasm.

OT what I think we need is.

No battlespirit server for PVP, full heals, shields and damage.

Content that requires something other than stack and burn (these aren't mechanics at all that we have right now) something that requires actual brainpower and stuff that has some variation. Some of the trials were great until everyone found out to complete them on YT. If there was some dynamic element to it and things changed slightly it'd give more challenge and entertainment.

Dare I say this... Why not.

Removal of PTS. Something inside my tight guilds and groups dies when they release new content on this platform. the coming weeks and months turn from playing into prepping for the next meta and doom and gloom. I get the PTS exists to save ZOS on overheads with hiring a real team to do it and we instead do it for them but it is an evil entity. Even if you don't use it yourself someone always comes along and reks your day but spilling all the juice. What happened to downloading new stuff and having a surprise?

@DRXHarbinger As always, you never fail to provide a solid response that’s well-thought. +1 my guy. +1.

You see, when I stepped away from this game and forum community for however many months I did — I learned the final few things I needed to know (regarding my addiction to ESO). And I completely did away with it. And thus, I’m straight now. I’m good.

The trick is to not take ESO that serious. I know. Sounds basic enough. Yet to some, it’s more complex can learning how to be a neurologist. Lol. Case and point, the guy above in this thread who got so salty behind this thread that he went full roleplay mode and called me a Dark Elf term. Lmao. But anyway, yeah my dude. You just can’t get serious with this game. It doesn’t deserve it anymore. Whether it be taking: Trials seriously, dungeons, the forums, PvP (lol please don’t take PvP seriously especially), etc. And just take everything with a huge amount of salt (no grains of salt will do), and with face values only.

Granted of course that I’m not saying don’t focus on tasks at hand in this game in regards to attempting to complete content, but don’t over do it. Don’t overthink anything, and definitely learn to let go. When ESO gets turned off, all thoughts about ESO should turn off with it. There are more pressing matters to think about. Such as how you’re going to climb out of platinum SR into diamond in a single season on Overwatch. Or how you’re going to rework your builds on a few JRPG’s, so that you can destroy the upcoming boss with more burst than you can imagine. And so on.

VaranisArano · October 2017

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

OT what I think we need is.

No battlespirit server for PVP, full heals, shields and damage.

Content that requires something other than stack and burn (these aren't mechanics at all that we have right now) something that requires actual brainpower and stuff that has some variation. Some of the trials were great until everyone found out to complete them on YT. If there was some dynamic element to it and things changed slightly it'd give more challenge and entertainment.

Dare I say this... Why not.

Removal of PTS. Something inside my tight guilds and groups dies when they release new content on this platform. the coming weeks and months turn from playing into prepping for the next meta and doom and gloom. I get the PTS exists to save ZOS on overheads with hiring a real team to do it and we instead do it for them but it is an evil entity. Even if you don't use it yourself someone always comes along and reks your day but spilling all the juice. What happened to downloading new stuff and having a surprise?

Full heals, shields, and damage. Hmm, you thought all of PVP was full of shield-stacking sorcs, earthgore-stacking groups, destro-ulti-wielding magblade pain trains, and groups with more healers than DPS before this change? Have we got news for you...

Content requires plenty of thinking, adapting, and strategizing if you don't have the DPS to burn through it. Maybe that's your problem. If you want a challenge, try the random group finder, where the challenge is working together with your random teammates!

Remove the PTS and be surprised by the content on launch day. That sounds great! Really exciting...I might be a little jaded about this game having been hit by the same Midas touch when it comes to game bugs that Bethesda seems to have. I'd rather the launched updates have less bugs personally, especially the game-breaking ones that result in long maintenances on or shortly after launch day. However, if spoiling yourself on content is a problem or making you miserable, why not just avoid the PTS yourself?

Ch4mpTW · October 2017

VaranisArano wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

OT what I think we need is.

No battlespirit server for PVP, full heals, shields and damage.

Content that requires something other than stack and burn (these aren't mechanics at all that we have right now) something that requires actual brainpower and stuff that has some variation. Some of the trials were great until everyone found out to complete them on YT. If there was some dynamic element to it and things changed slightly it'd give more challenge and entertainment.

Dare I say this... Why not.

Removal of PTS. Something inside my tight guilds and groups dies when they release new content on this platform. the coming weeks and months turn from playing into prepping for the next meta and doom and gloom. I get the PTS exists to save ZOS on overheads with hiring a real team to do it and we instead do it for them but it is an evil entity. Even if you don't use it yourself someone always comes along and reks your day but spilling all the juice. What happened to downloading new stuff and having a surprise?

Full heals, shields, and damage. Hmm, you thought all of PVP was full of shield-stacking sorcs, earthgore-stacking groups, destro-ulti-wielding magblade pain trains, and groups with more healers than DPS before this change? Have we got news for you...

Content requires plenty of thinking, adapting, and strategizing if you don't have the DPS to burn through it. Maybe that's your problem. If you want a challenge, try the random group finder, where the challenge is working together with your random teammates!

Remove the PTS and be surprised by the content on launch day. That sounds great! Really exciting...I might be a little jaded about this game having been hit by the same Midas touch when it comes to game bugs that Bethesda seems to have. I'd rather the launched updates have less bugs personally, especially the game-breaking ones that result in long maintenances on or shortly after launch day. However, if spoiling yourself on content is a problem or making you miserable, why not just avoid the PTS yourself?

Here’s my question. How can 1 have a healthy time sink, when the PTS is pretty much the new patch in full about to go live. Ultimately leaving little to nothing to be sought after, and surprised by. I understand the importance of a PTS, and how they help devs identify areas that need adjusting. Things that need to be reworked and so on. But, when you have a PTR/PTS that is basically just a non-official version of what’s about to go live — you’re in a sense leaking your next thrill out. You’re spoiling the content, and in some cases the drive to complete the content.

Case and point is VHoF. The guild which proclaimed “World’s First” had weeks to work on getting that trial done. So when it did go live, Week 1 it’s already done. Strategies figured out, and all that. How can I as a player look at that, and be like, “Yeah, I definitely am looking forward into investing myself into this.” How can I do that? Knowing that the completion isn’t even that special from the rip, but even more so due to the fact that folks had crazy amount of time to work on the content at hand for weeks on end. N’ah bro. That’s not right. That does not show mastery of the time sink art.

mirta000b16_ESO · October 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

OT what I think we need is.

No battlespirit server for PVP, full heals, shields and damage.

Content that requires something other than stack and burn (these aren't mechanics at all that we have right now) something that requires actual brainpower and stuff that has some variation. Some of the trials were great until everyone found out to complete them on YT. If there was some dynamic element to it and things changed slightly it'd give more challenge and entertainment.

Dare I say this... Why not.

Removal of PTS. Something inside my tight guilds and groups dies when they release new content on this platform. the coming weeks and months turn from playing into prepping for the next meta and doom and gloom. I get the PTS exists to save ZOS on overheads with hiring a real team to do it and we instead do it for them but it is an evil entity. Even if you don't use it yourself someone always comes along and reks your day but spilling all the juice. What happened to downloading new stuff and having a surprise?

Full heals, shields, and damage. Hmm, you thought all of PVP was full of shield-stacking sorcs, earthgore-stacking groups, destro-ulti-wielding magblade pain trains, and groups with more healers than DPS before this change? Have we got news for you...

Content requires plenty of thinking, adapting, and strategizing if you don't have the DPS to burn through it. Maybe that's your problem. If you want a challenge, try the random group finder, where the challenge is working together with your random teammates!

Remove the PTS and be surprised by the content on launch day. That sounds great! Really exciting...I might be a little jaded about this game having been hit by the same Midas touch when it comes to game bugs that Bethesda seems to have. I'd rather the launched updates have less bugs personally, especially the game-breaking ones that result in long maintenances on or shortly after launch day. However, if spoiling yourself on content is a problem or making you miserable, why not just avoid the PTS yourself?

Here’s my question. How can 1 have a healthy time sink, when the PTS is pretty much the new patch in full about to go live. Ultimately leaving little to nothing to be sought after, and surprised by. I understand the importance of a PTS, and how they help devs identify areas that need adjusting. Things that need to be reworked and so on. But, when you have a PTR/PTS that is basically just a non-official version of what’s about to go live — you’re in a sense leaking your next thrill out. You’re spoiling the content, and in some cases the drive to complete the content.

Case and point is VHoF. The guild which proclaimed “World’s First” had weeks to work on getting that trial done. So when it did go live, Week 1 it’s already done. Strategies figured out, and all that. How can I as a player look at that, and be like, “Yeah, I definitely am looking forward into investing myself into this.” How can I do that? Knowing that the completion isn’t even that special from the rip, but even more so due to the fact that folks had crazy amount of time to work on the content at hand for weeks on end. N’ah bro. That’s not right. That does not show mastery of the time sink art.

WoW works in the EXACT SAME fashion. Wildstar would hide their raid bosses, so when raids would come out, second bos would completely half first world race while everyone sat fiddling their thumbs waiting for a fix. FFXIV employs their own personal testers, however that ends up with once again broken fights as 200 odd people can't playtest EVERYTHING.

You know how you can enjoy the content? By ignoring it. My raid group was casual in FFXIV and months behind everyone else. Never did we once google a guide because part of the fun was figuring it all out. Guides in that game BTW are out by the end of the week for the hardest version of raids. For anything easier, on the same day as content hits.

This is not new in the MMO scene.

You know how easy it is to avoid spoilers? As of currently I know absolutely NOTHING about Clockwork, except what was in the introductory quests and dev lore character introductions.

DRXHarbinger · October 2017

VaranisArano wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

OT what I think we need is.

No battlespirit server for PVP, full heals, shields and damage.

Content that requires something other than stack and burn (these aren't mechanics at all that we have right now) something that requires actual brainpower and stuff that has some variation. Some of the trials were great until everyone found out to complete them on YT. If there was some dynamic element to it and things changed slightly it'd give more challenge and entertainment.

Dare I say this... Why not.

Removal of PTS. Something inside my tight guilds and groups dies when they release new content on this platform. the coming weeks and months turn from playing into prepping for the next meta and doom and gloom. I get the PTS exists to save ZOS on overheads with hiring a real team to do it and we instead do it for them but it is an evil entity. Even if you don't use it yourself someone always comes along and reks your day but spilling all the juice. What happened to downloading new stuff and having a surprise?

Full heals, shields, and damage. Hmm, you thought all of PVP was full of shield-stacking sorcs, earthgore-stacking groups, destro-ulti-wielding magblade pain trains, and groups with more healers than DPS before this change? Have we got news for you...

Content requires plenty of thinking, adapting, and strategizing if you don't have the DPS to burn through it. Maybe that's your problem. If you want a challenge, try the random group finder, where the challenge is working together with your random teammates!

Remove the PTS and be surprised by the content on launch day. That sounds great! Really exciting...I might be a little jaded about this game having been hit by the same Midas touch when it comes to game bugs that Bethesda seems to have. I'd rather the launched updates have less bugs personally, especially the game-breaking ones that result in long maintenances on or shortly after launch day. However, if spoiling yourself on content is a problem or making you miserable, why not just avoid the PTS yourself?

Yeah I am aware of Cyro... I didn't hit AR50 sitting by the Rawlkha Wayshrine all day and night discussing how to max my d33ps in zone chat. Not sure how removing BS will affect that part bar the fact making these glass cannon builds even easier to kill but hey.

Rather than have me rely on the suckiness of pugs to give myself a challenge how about zos give us a challenge bar 1 trial once in a blue moon? Random groups aren't hard with pugs when you can solo the vast majority. it just gives me 3 tanks.

You seem to have separated bugs being introduced with new content rather than having the entire new version of the game to test out and play and prep for. Points being.

Bugs on PTS hardly every get fixed before live
Bugs on PTS go unnoticed and make it to live
How many "balance changes" actually introduce real game breaking bugs, class breaking and actual game breaking are 2 different things... very very very few in fact.

How many changes made actually result in a satisfied player base on pts? Now these are CHANGES made NOT the content. Very very very few.

Hence what I am talking about. They can deploy the CONTENT of the DLC, the bit we are paying for if they require test mules but it's quite defeating to release all the skill and class changes when nothing / barely anything is ever listened too or reworked.