Could say the same about stam sorcs I'm glad heavy armor is not as strong anymore

The changes was needed and welcome, it's true stam dk need a bit help, but theze change make the game better and more balancing.

Maybe the hidden heavy armor passive Gina didn't spoke about will bring more tankiness to stam dk ?

Mihael wrote: »

Could say the same about stam sorcs I'm glad heavy armor is not as strong anymore

Stam sorcs will be fine in medium.

Xsorus wrote: »

Wrath removal
Evasion removal from heavy
Shield ult increasing cost

All these effect multiple classes, but one class is catching the brunt of this more then any other class and that’s stamina dk, are stamina dks out there really that big of an issue ZOS? Cause that’s who you’re hitting this patch.... and I certainly don’t see anything in the patch notes really improving on stamina dks.

Honestly i dont blame zos for nerfing,
There are alot of *** in this community that post videos of Perma Blocking builds tanking 200 players and killing the noobie one's out of this groups.
Pepole like me that never abuse this kind of lame gameplay got nerfed to the ground, while those guys will keep their lame gameplay without a single nerf cuz simply they dont even need shuffle in perma blocking style. I guess thats how ZOS wants every stam dk to play. *** this.I have no *** idea how ZOS nerfed the other gameplay, but kept this perma blocking *** rolling next patchs.
Why would u even play such a build if u cant kill any decent good player? ur'e simply just a tank that slap noobs.

DKs get nerfs. Even when we get slight buffs (Petrify changed from disorient to stun), it comes with a nerf (range reduced from 15m to 8m). This is the way it has been for the last 2.5 years. DKs get nerfs.

necronyteub17_ESO wrote: »

Every DK abuses what they had going for them and now they get the nerf bat up the *&*(.
GOOD , that's what you get for abusing that crap in Cyro constantly. Keep abusing the rest of your skills and see what happens .
Im glad they did it. In fact they need to start working on the Blocking builds next . You want to constantly block build? Then your damage should be non existent. Pick one way or the other but you shouldn't have both. Hope they keep monitoring these things.

lol, ok. Maybe if DKs had some sort of defense other than block then we wouldn't need to rely on it. Sorry we don't have Streak and Shields and Cloak to carry us.

ezeepeezee wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

necronyteub17_ESO wrote: »

Every DK abuses what they had going for them and now they get the nerf bat up the *&*(.
GOOD , that's what you get for abusing that crap in Cyro constantly. Keep abusing the rest of your skills and see what happens .
Im glad they did it. In fact they need to start working on the Blocking builds next . You want to constantly block build? Then your damage should be non existent. Pick one way or the other but you shouldn't have both. Hope they keep monitoring these things.

lol, ok. Maybe if DKs had some sort of defense other than block then we wouldn't need to rely on it. Sorry we don't have Streak and Shields and Cloak to carry us.

While I agree to an extent, streak/shields/cloak all require thoughtful, moderated usage. When you build into permablocking you can just tape down that right mouse button. I know you still have to ulti, still have to heal, still have to do several things to stay alive, but having played everything in the game, I really think that permablocking is the easiest thing to manage, and does need tuning.

That being said, ZOS is going about fixing what people perceive to be wrong with DKs (because, judging by some of these responses, those people haven't played a DK) in 110% the wrong way. I think part of the problem is how little they seem to actually care about PVP, compared to PVE. I am mostly inferring this under the assumption that they are hesitant to nerf blocking further due to the design of trials that basically require permablocking. Changing that would require changing the content radically - making it possible to drop block by adding in grace periods / other mechanics that add another layer of complexity to the design.

But guess what? Players don't hit as hard as raid bosses. So having the 'tank' aspects of player design tuned around taking 80k hits and surviving is incredibly unhealthy for PVP, and it shows.

Before HA gets nerfed, for the love of god, and as others have said here, get a clue on what the actual issues are, ZOS. You should know, it's your game. If you don't know, please get in touch with people that do. Many players here on the forums and out in the community at large would be more than happy to point you all in the right direction. There are simpler things that can be changed to make this game more fun for everyone. Removing wrath doesn't even register on the list of things that are wrong.

And like everyone else who opines on the permablocking DK/Templar issue you pretend that all DKs and Templars who utilize block are built to permablock. That's utter BS. There are lots of DKs and Templars (like myself) who would rather not rely on block like back in the good old days when we had Miss Chance on Cinder Storm and Miss Chance on Blinding Flashes.

The point that you miss is that classes like DKs and Templars literally HAVE NO CHOICE but to utilize block as a defensive mechanic. And while I disagree entirely with your statement that streak/shields/cloak require "thoughtful" usage (I mean, truly lol worthy stuff considering it's far less penalizing to perma shield stack than it is to perma block, but I digress), the point, once again, is that those classes (sorc/nb) have defensive mechanics that are separate from block. I don't want to run S/B on my DK but what am I supposed to do when I get outnumbered? Mist around indefinitely? Be reasonable. The problem isn't that DKs enjoy blocking the problem is that DKs have to block.

If Sorcs didn't have Streak and NBs didn't have cloak, guess what? They'd be block bots too.

So if you want to fix blocking you FIRST need to start by giving DKs and Templars defensive abilities like they were originally designed to have. That right there would probably ween out a sizeable portion of the block community. I would much rather use skills defensively than be beholden to block.

Then, if you want to fix permablocking then you need to tone down the outrageous blocking modifiers currently available. The ease with which one can stack 19% block from CP (49 pts) and 32% block (traits) is completely ridiculous.

But if you nerf block considerably (which should happen eventually) before you give DK and Templar some class-based defense, then you can basically say goodbye to those classes in PvP.

Xsorus wrote: »

Wrath removal
Evasion removal from heavy
Shield ult increasing cost

All these effect multiple classes, but one class is catching the brunt of this more then any other class and that’s stamina dk, are stamina dks out there really that big of an issue ZOS? Cause that’s who you’re hitting this patch.... and I certainly don’t see anything in the patch notes really improving on stamina dks.

Nah I don't use any of these. And still do very well in pvp.

amir412 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Wrath removal
Evasion removal from heavy
Shield ult increasing cost

All these effect multiple classes, but one class is catching the brunt of this more then any other class and that’s stamina dk, are stamina dks out there really that big of an issue ZOS? Cause that’s who you’re hitting this patch.... and I certainly don’t see anything in the patch notes really improving on stamina dks.

Honestly i dont blame zos for nerfing,
There are alot of *** in this community that post videos of Perma Blocking builds tanking 200 players and killing the noobie one's out of this groups.
Pepole like me that never abuse this kind of lame gameplay got nerfed to the ground, while those guys will keep their lame gameplay without a single nerf cuz simply they dont even need shuffle in perma blocking style. I guess thats how ZOS wants every stam dk to play. *** this.I have no *** idea how ZOS nerfed the other gameplay, but kept this perma blocking *** rolling next patchs.
Why would u even play such a build if u cant kill any decent good player? ur'e simply just a tank that slap noobs.

Mag dk can pull off the perma block and dish out great dps.

Owch :'( wrath+shield ult increase is gonna hurt stam dk

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

ezeepeezee wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

necronyteub17_ESO wrote: »

Every DK abuses what they had going for them and now they get the nerf bat up the *&*(.
GOOD , that's what you get for abusing that crap in Cyro constantly. Keep abusing the rest of your skills and see what happens .
Im glad they did it. In fact they need to start working on the Blocking builds next . You want to constantly block build? Then your damage should be non existent. Pick one way or the other but you shouldn't have both. Hope they keep monitoring these things.

lol, ok. Maybe if DKs had some sort of defense other than block then we wouldn't need to rely on it. Sorry we don't have Streak and Shields and Cloak to carry us.

While I agree to an extent, streak/shields/cloak all require thoughtful, moderated usage. When you build into permablocking you can just tape down that right mouse button. I know you still have to ulti, still have to heal, still have to do several things to stay alive, but having played everything in the game, I really think that permablocking is the easiest thing to manage, and does need tuning.

That being said, ZOS is going about fixing what people perceive to be wrong with DKs (because, judging by some of these responses, those people haven't played a DK) in 110% the wrong way. I think part of the problem is how little they seem to actually care about PVP, compared to PVE. I am mostly inferring this under the assumption that they are hesitant to nerf blocking further due to the design of trials that basically require permablocking. Changing that would require changing the content radically - making it possible to drop block by adding in grace periods / other mechanics that add another layer of complexity to the design.

But guess what? Players don't hit as hard as raid bosses. So having the 'tank' aspects of player design tuned around taking 80k hits and surviving is incredibly unhealthy for PVP, and it shows.

Before HA gets nerfed, for the love of god, and as others have said here, get a clue on what the actual issues are, ZOS. You should know, it's your game. If you don't know, please get in touch with people that do. Many players here on the forums and out in the community at large would be more than happy to point you all in the right direction. There are simpler things that can be changed to make this game more fun for everyone. Removing wrath doesn't even register on the list of things that are wrong.

What infuriates me the most is that There is a very simple fix so we pvpers don't screw the pvers over. And that's separating EVERYTHING about pvp/pve. Like Guild wars two did this. If something was Amazing in pvp, but op in Pve. They would change the skill's behavior depending on what activity you're doing.

Worse part is, ZOS HAS ALREADY DONE THIS BEFORE! Look at Ambush. It stuns Pve enemies for two seconds, but for players, it only snares them.

And yet Zos is making nonsensical excuses as to why they don't want something like this, when they already done it before.

So many player are leaving. Zos lost Deltia, Sypher, and among other Popular players over stupid *** like this. Even Fengrush is struggling to find interest in the game. The only reason he's still playing this game now is because of the playerbase. Everyone is finally fed up with this game. And who can blame them when Zos can't keep it togeather?

these streamers, especially crying sad Sypher are no names without TES
who know about Sypher before his NB streams? No one. And after year a lot of just forget him and will find someone new on YouTube. Stop sticking on good old times pls. Its not constructive

All these effect multiple classes, but one class is catching the brunt of this more then any other class and that’s stamina dk, are stamina dks out there really that big of an issue ZOS? Cause that’s who you’re hitting this patch.... and I certainly don’t see anything in the patch notes really improving on stamina dks.[/quote]

Honestly i dont blame zos for nerfing,
There are alot of *** in this community that post videos of Perma Blocking builds tanking 200 players and killing the noobie one's out of this groups.
Pepole like me that never abuse this kind of lame gameplay got nerfed to the ground, while those guys will keep their lame gameplay without a single nerf cuz simply they dont even need shuffle in perma blocking style. I guess thats how ZOS wants every stam dk to play. *** this.I have no *** idea how ZOS nerfed the other gameplay, but kept this perma blocking *** rolling next patchs.
Why would u even play such a build if u cant kill any decent good player? ur'e simply just a tank that slap noobs.
[/quote]

Mag dk can pull off the perma block and dish out great dps.[/quote]

Lel. You don't know how the game works. The amount of mobility and burst loss to permablock on a DK is massive. As opposed to the amount sacrificed on a sorc for example. (nothing)

Anything strong a DK has gets nerfed. Wings, bye. Battle roar, cya. Chain, rip. Petrify, melee. igneous, loss of mending, cinder storm, no evasion. Now blocking, literally DKs only functioning defense mechanism is being targetted. No mention of how broken shields are? Even leap and talons have had range nerfs.

They need some method of dealing with targets. The heavy nerf was a blanket change that helped nothing.It didn't fix the issue of permablocking, or the fact that sets give them more damage then medium. Or that medium has trash passives (Stealth? Only viable for stamblades, same with dodgerolling, since they have cloak. Otherwise everything and its mother gets through it.) anyway, leading to the heavy meta.
[/quote]

Lol I was just saying they can dish out great dps while permablocking. I don't think any perma block build should have any dps.

Kilandros wrote: »

ezeepeezee wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

necronyteub17_ESO wrote: »

Every DK abuses what they had going for them and now they get the nerf bat up the *&*(.
GOOD , that's what you get for abusing that crap in Cyro constantly. Keep abusing the rest of your skills and see what happens .
Im glad they did it. In fact they need to start working on the Blocking builds next . You want to constantly block build? Then your damage should be non existent. Pick one way or the other but you shouldn't have both. Hope they keep monitoring these things.

lol, ok. Maybe if DKs had some sort of defense other than block then we wouldn't need to rely on it. Sorry we don't have Streak and Shields and Cloak to carry us.

While I agree to an extent, streak/shields/cloak all require thoughtful, moderated usage. When you build into permablocking you can just tape down that right mouse button. I know you still have to ulti, still have to heal, still have to do several things to stay alive, but having played everything in the game, I really think that permablocking is the easiest thing to manage, and does need tuning.

That being said, ZOS is going about fixing what people perceive to be wrong with DKs (because, judging by some of these responses, those people haven't played a DK) in 110% the wrong way. I think part of the problem is how little they seem to actually care about PVP, compared to PVE. I am mostly inferring this under the assumption that they are hesitant to nerf blocking further due to the design of trials that basically require permablocking. Changing that would require changing the content radically - making it possible to drop block by adding in grace periods / other mechanics that add another layer of complexity to the design.

But guess what? Players don't hit as hard as raid bosses. So having the 'tank' aspects of player design tuned around taking 80k hits and surviving is incredibly unhealthy for PVP, and it shows.

Before HA gets nerfed, for the love of god, and as others have said here, get a clue on what the actual issues are, ZOS. You should know, it's your game. If you don't know, please get in touch with people that do. Many players here on the forums and out in the community at large would be more than happy to point you all in the right direction. There are simpler things that can be changed to make this game more fun for everyone. Removing wrath doesn't even register on the list of things that are wrong.

And like everyone else who opines on the permablocking DK/Templar issue you pretend that all DKs and Templars who utilize block are built to permablock. That's utter BS. There are lots of DKs and Templars (like myself) who would rather not rely on block like back in the good old days when we had Miss Chance on Cinder Storm and Miss Chance on Blinding Flashes.

The point that you miss is that classes like DKs and Templars literally HAVE NO CHOICE but to utilize block as a defensive mechanic. And while I disagree entirely with your statement that streak/shields/cloak require "thoughtful" usage (I mean, truly lol worthy stuff considering it's far less penalizing to perma shield stack than it is to perma block, but I digress), the point, once again, is that those classes (sorc/nb) have defensive mechanics that are separate from block. I don't want to run S/B on my DK but what am I supposed to do when I get outnumbered? Mist around indefinitely? Be reasonable. The problem isn't that DKs enjoy blocking the problem is that DKs have to block.

If Sorcs didn't have Streak and NBs didn't have cloak, guess what? They'd be block bots too.

So if you want to fix blocking you FIRST need to start by giving DKs and Templars defensive abilities like they were originally designed to have. That right there would probably ween out a sizeable portion of the block community. I would much rather use skills defensively than be beholden to block.

Then, if you want to fix permablocking then you need to tone down the outrageous blocking modifiers currently available. The ease with which one can stack 19% block from CP (49 pts) and 32% block (traits) is completely ridiculous.

But if you nerf block considerably (which should happen eventually) before you give DK and Templar some class-based defense, then you can basically say goodbye to those classes in PvP.

I agree with you, and you bring up a good point that I had in mind but failed to make. And for the record, I do not permablock with s/b; the only reduction I even use is the CP star (or a sturdy piece in noCP), and I make every attempt to block as little as possible, only when necessary.

I've been playing a stamina Warden, and it really makes me miss my stamina DK. I used to love stamDK when wings was effective. Right now, it's not. And it's the only thing that can save it when being ranged down. Shimmering shield reminds me of what wings used to be.

All stamina specs need a way of dealing with ranged damage, and as you say, blocking is the only good option for some. LoS is the other way (which for example is stamsorc's saving grace, being able to streak to cover), but given the topography of Cyrodiil, LoS forces stam builds into treehugging and rock humping and few people if anybody really enjoy that.

I think one of the big issues that is not being addressed very often is that the actual layout of Cyrodiil is a huge factor in the gameplay there. Speaking generally, magicka classes have an advantage at range, and stamina classes have an advantage in melee. But Cyrodiil has very few CQB scenarios. It's mostly open field combat, in which ranged classes, especially magicka sorcs, reign supreme. This skews people's view of where the issues in balance are. And then of course you have destro ult skewing that further, but we'll see how that plays out I guess.

With that in mind, I think wings needs a real buff (much more than to be extended to 6 seconds, in fact I would love to see it return magicka like shimmering does). Wings and shimmering should be roughly equivalent, because they serve the same purpose. I think that stam sorcs and stamplars could also be well served with some equivalent thing; maybe total dark was meant to be that, and ball of lightning can serve this purpose to an extent, but I find them both lacking in comparison to wings/shimmering. And that's not necessarily wrong, but like everything else, it's a compounding of issues that reduce the effectiveness of those choices to a point that they are ruled out completely.

So, yes, high block uptime is indeed practically the only available defense to a stamDK. It didn't used to be, and it shouldn't be. But in its current incarnation it is incredibly potent. I haven't fought any sorcs that just stand there slapping their shield key, and if I have found them I'm not sure I noticed, because their failure to utilize any other tactic probably resulted in their untimely death. But I HAVE come across Templars and DKs that seem to be able to hold block for egregious amounts of time, against far more opponents than any sorc or otherwise could stand to have dogpiled on it.

It is those builds that come to mind - because of the frustration they breed - that I think people tend to have in mind when they talk about blocking being problematic. And I don't disagree. In fact, when I play my stam Warden, I can face tank many people while still maintaining upwards of 4.5k weapon damage, enough to obliterate most other players while they are practically unable to penetrate the defenses it has. Yes, it is running Fury, 7th and BS or TK. As others have said here, those sets and a few others are the culprit, not wrath, not block cost, not anything else. Nobody would build to block so much if they couldn't also achieve instagib levels of damage while doing it.

Finally, to the specific question:

I don't want to run S/B on my DK but what am I supposed to do when I get outnumbered? Mist around indefinitely? Be reasonable.

There are players who do it a different way. Mostly they are using immovable + speed pots and shuffle, and are good at using LoS. But like I said, LoS as a primary defense is going to restrict you to only engaging in LoS-rich environments, which can be unappealing, especially considering that between all of the emp-ring keeps it's mostly open field.